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2 Points

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  • Lance Bermudez
    Many thanks for the link to One Straw Living , I ve had trouble getting the book in English around here. I have a question about Fukuoka s ideas. Would he
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 29, 2003
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      Many thanks for the link to "One Straw Living", I've had trouble getting the book in English around here.

      I have a question about Fukuoka's ideas. Would he most likely agree with the following two quotes?

      "Man is above nature" , by Messrs Peters and Mirabile-caruso

      "We were created to rule nature", by Mr. Peters

      Lance Bermudez
      becnal@...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • corfuku
      ... with the following two quotes? ... the phrases you quoted reflect very christian views, i feel.... views which are based on the egocentric idea that the
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 29, 2003
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        >
        > I have a question about Fukuoka's ideas. Would he most likely agree
        with the following two quotes?
        >
        > "Man is above nature" , by Messrs Peters and Mirabile-caruso
        >
        > "We were created to rule nature", by Mr. Peters
        >
        > Lance Bermudez
        > becnal@s...
        >


        the phrases you quoted reflect very christian views, i feel.... views
        which are based on the egocentric idea that the whole universe
        revolves around "Man" (a word which in itself suggests that actually
        the whole universe revolves, more than anything, around the male)
        ...i'm not much into these sorts of views (to put it mildly), and i
        don't think fukuoka was either.

        pavle
      • Sergio Montinola
        Dear Lance, To understand Man s nature is a philosphical treatise that can only be found and understood in a Religion. One dominant and a true Religion in
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 29, 2003
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          Dear Lance, To understand Man's nature is a philosphical treatise that can only be found and understood in a Religion. One dominant and a true Religion in the world is found in the Holy Roman Catholic Church headed by Pope Paul II in Rome., successor of Jesus Christ, true God and true man. l.
          Therefore Man is not meant "to be above and to rule nature" as such. It has a life of its own and has a Divine purpose in life. The Catholic religion takes care and answers all its questions. Hope this will offer an answer to your question. Sergio J. Montinola
          Lance Bermudez <becnal@...> wrote:Many thanks for the link to "One Straw Living", I've had trouble getting the book in English around here.

          I have a question about Fukuoka's ideas. Would he most likely agree with the following two quotes?

          "Man is above nature" , by Messrs Peters and Mirabile-caruso

          "We were created to rule nature", by Mr. Peters

          Lance Bermudez
          becnal@...


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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        • Tim Peters
          re. Fukuoka would his words say one thing? and his life another? ...would that be natural? ...on what will we base our understanding of him, and what he says
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 29, 2003
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            re. Fukuoka
            would his words say one thing? and his life another? ...would that be
            natural? ...on what will we base our understanding of him, and what he says
            and does?

            whether he agreed or disagreed, on what basis would he? ...to this let's
            add one more question: would he agree with Sergio on all points? Why?


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Lance Bermudez" <becnal@...>
            To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 2:27 AM
            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] 2 Points


            > Many thanks for the link to "One Straw Living", I've had trouble getting
            the book in English around here.
            >
            > I have a question about Fukuoka's ideas. Would he most likely agree with
            the following two quotes?
            >
            > "Man is above nature" , by Messrs Peters and Mirabile-caruso
            >
            > "We were created to rule nature", by Mr. Peters
            >
            > Lance Bermudez
            > becnal@...
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
          • robert waldrop
            Well, I have hesitated to get into this thread, but this statement isn t really true. ... Maybe some Christians feel that way, but its not good theology. I am
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 30, 2003
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              Well, I have hesitated to get into this thread, but this statement isn't
              really true.

              > the phrases you quoted reflect very christian views, i feel....

              Maybe some Christians feel that way, but its not good theology.

              I am a devout Catholic Christian, founder of a Catholic Worker house, I
              see no conflict between my religious faith and natural farming. In fact,
              my own experiments with urban natural gardening are rooted in my
              Christian faith and my praxis of the teachings of my church.

              Natural farming can and should be expressed/explained in a variety of
              religious/theological/philosophical/cultural/racial world views, for the
              human ecology of this planet is nothing if not composed of a rather
              variegated tapestry of such beliefs. And natural farming praxis has to
              take into account the human species because we have such an impact on
              our surroundings.

              Also, my personal intuition is that all species are 'centric towards
              their own species. My dogs, for example, never leave any extra treats
              for the cats, and if I give the cats treats, if a dog comes close he is
              liable to get scratched on the nose. Maybe they learned this
              caninecentric and felinecentric behavior from their long association
              with us, but I don't think so. Whatever else we are or might be in the
              future, we have the ability to rise above an anthrocentric viewpoint to
              take into account all of the myriad parts of Creation.

              Robert Waldrop, OKC
              http://www.bettertimesinfo.org/2003garden.htm
            • jamie
              Hello Robert, I respect your devotion and your ministry in OKC, I ve been following your progress since stumbling upon your BetterTimes ezine a couple of years
              Message 6 of 8 , May 1, 2003
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                Hello Robert, I respect your devotion and your ministry in OKC, I've been
                following your progress since stumbling upon your BetterTimes ezine a couple
                of years ago - I appreciate the regular updates you send to the group.

                I know you're a busy man but perhaps it would be useful to the group to hear
                a more detailed account of your Christian understanding of Fukuoka and NF. I
                find I'm far too often muttering negatively about dualism and the failure of
                the West...etc etc ad infinitum. I'd certainly appreciate the opportunity of
                constructing a positive dialogue to draw out the connections between Fukuoka
                and Christianity which I'm sure exist but that I don't have the necessary
                experience/insight to have drawn for myself.

                Jamie
                Souscayrous



                -----Original Message-----
                From: robert waldrop [mailto:rmwj@...]
                Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 4:19 AM
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: 2 Points


                Well, I have hesitated to get into this thread, but this statement isn't
                really true.

                > the phrases you quoted reflect very christian views, i feel....

                Maybe some Christians feel that way, but its not good theology.

                I am a devout Catholic Christian, founder of a Catholic Worker house, I
                see no conflict between my religious faith and natural farming. In fact,
                my own experiments with urban natural gardening are rooted in my
                Christian faith and my praxis of the teachings of my church.

                Natural farming can and should be expressed/explained in a variety of
                religious/theological/philosophical/cultural/racial world views, for the
                human ecology of this planet is nothing if not composed of a rather
                variegated tapestry of such beliefs. And natural farming praxis has to
                take into account the human species because we have such an impact on
                our surroundings.

                Also, my personal intuition is that all species are 'centric towards
                their own species. My dogs, for example, never leave any extra treats
                for the cats, and if I give the cats treats, if a dog comes close he is
                liable to get scratched on the nose. Maybe they learned this
                caninecentric and felinecentric behavior from their long association
                with us, but I don't think so. Whatever else we are or might be in the
                future, we have the ability to rise above an anthrocentric viewpoint to
                take into account all of the myriad parts of Creation.

                Robert Waldrop, OKC
                http://www.bettertimesinfo.org/2003garden.htm



                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • robert waldrop
                Well, let s see if I can get to the root of this problem without kicking over an ant hill. I think the first thing is that I do not equate Christianity with
                Message 7 of 8 , May 1, 2003
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                  Well, let's see if I can get to the root of this problem without kicking
                  over an ant hill.

                  I think the first thing is that I do not equate Christianity with the
                  West. Christianity began in a land which is a bridge between Asia and
                  Europe, and flourished in the East for hundreds of years before falling
                  before Islam. Yes there was a lot of Greco Roman thought and Jewish
                  theology, but there was also the wisdom of ancient Egypt, Syria,
                  Chaldea, Armenia, etc. in the melting pot.

                  This is why your comment in another email:

                  "Openness, receptivity, egoless observation (meditation), harkening (not
                  looking/searching for) to nature (that which is other) and giving it a
                  place to abide within ourselves, is the best way I know for coming to
                  terms with much that is difficult or just plain different in Fukuoka."

                  sounds very Christian to me.

                  The "I think therefore I am" idea in Western thoughtis the product of
                  rationality, which rejected the mysticism of the Church, and that is
                  also I think the source of the mind/body dualism, which I don't find at
                  all in the Bible, or the writings of the early church theologians, or in
                  the modern Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am not responsible for
                  everything that has been said by a Christian on the subject, but those
                  who have made a sharp distinction between the body and the spirit are
                  not doing Catholic theology.

                  As to how this fits with natural farming, I see humanity's role in the
                  ecology of this planet is to be stewards not dominators. Like plants, we
                  have a need to put down roots. The longer I live at this little place
                  in the midst of a city, the more I belong here, the more I know this
                  place.

                  Even with four years of observation of my own little land, I am still
                  learning new things, in part because whether I want to or not, I am
                  impacting this land. I am trying to make that impact be intelligent,
                  and as often as not to impact by doing nothing rather than doing
                  something.

                  When I do "do something" I try to work with nature, not against it. And
                  most of the "doing" has involved "undoing" the dominator style landscape
                  that had been maintained here lo these many years, and then bringing
                  together seeds, cuttings, and plants and then observing how they grow
                  together.

                  I picked the first two strawberries of the season today, they were so
                  tempting I just ate them right on the spot, and they were so good.
                  perfect ripeness, beautiful color, so sweet but not sickening sweet like
                  a Coca Cola soft drink. To find them I had to reach down into a dense
                  thicket of flowering vetch, crimson clover, multiplying onions,
                  elderberries, dandelions, and strawberry plants surrounded by logs.
                  This year all I've had to do with that little patch is pull a little
                  bermuda grass from the edges. (I was recently given a digital camera,
                  and as soon as I figure out how to download the images to my computer,
                  hehehe, I'll have some more pictures to show.)

                  I believe all things were created by God, and that includes me, and that
                  all of Creation shares with God the ongoing joy of being actively
                  involved as integral parts of Creation. All things are truly connected.
                  and part of our divinization is to be co Creators with God. If we
                  abandon this to become dominators, we feed the culture of death.

                  God is as real as I am, I am as real as God is. We eat his flesh and
                  drink his blood as part of our liturgy. And as they say, "you are what
                  you eat." This is the mystical aspect, and it is only the barest
                  skimming of the surface. Within Christianity there are a number of
                  spiritual paths, my own is generally referred to as "contemplative in
                  action", which seeks to inform ones daily life in the world with the
                  deepest contemplative mysteries, and I use a variety of meditation
                  practices and disciplines to develop this and make it real in my daily
                  life. Many centuries ago there was a monk, Brother Lawrence, who was
                  dishwasher in a monastery. Even so he wrote a little book, and
                  explained how by practicing the presence of God he was as close to God
                  when washing dishes in the kitchen as he was during High Mass at the
                  Cathedral.

                  Besides mysticism, there is also an aspect of social theology, as I see
                  natural farming as also being a reflection of the Catholic Church's
                  teachings on social issues, which have generally been more explicitly
                  developed over the last 120 years or so, Rerum Novarum by Pope Leo XIII
                  in the 1890s is considered to be the first of a long line of papal
                  encyclicals dedicated to social issues.

                  Among many things that could be cited about this teaching, the Church
                  says that rural communities are important, and as someone who was raised
                  on a farm, and has watched the rural community he was born into wither
                  over the last 50 years, it is clear to me that farming methods in this
                  country must change. Conventional farms in the US are factories, not
                  ecosystems. Inputs are hauled in and products are hauled out.

                  As a lay Catholic, it is my special calling to take these teachings and
                  apply them to concrete situations, and it is obvious to me that natural
                  farming is one way to do this.

                  I really hope this is helpful.

                  Robert Waldrop, OKc

                  jamie wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Robert, I respect your devotion and your ministry in OKC, I've been
                  > following your progress since stumbling upon your BetterTimes ezine a couple
                  > of years ago - I appreciate the regular updates you send to the group.
                  >
                  > I know you're a busy man but perhaps it would be useful to the group to hear
                  > a more detailed account of your Christian understanding of Fukuoka and NF. I
                  > find I'm far too often muttering negatively about dualism and the failure of
                  > the West...etc etc ad infinitum. I'd certainly appreciate the opportunity of
                  > constructing a positive dialogue to draw out the connections between Fukuoka
                  > and Christianity which I'm sure exist but that I don't have the necessary
                  > experience/insight to have drawn for myself.
                  >
                  > Jamie
                  > Souscayrous
                  >
                • jamie
                  Hello Robert and everyone following this debate. Certainly the intellectual history of Christianity is far broader than any simple understanding of the West. I
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 2, 2003
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                    Hello Robert and everyone following this debate.

                    Certainly the intellectual history of Christianity is far broader than any
                    simple understanding of the West. I spent some years in Egypt (and a shorter
                    time in greece) and became aware of the many connections (intellectual and
                    commercial) between the cultures (and of martin bernal's book "Black Athena"
                    that suggests that Greek culture is 'Black' in that 'Greece' was colonized
                    by the Egyptians (across the centuries Egypt was ruled by many different
                    peoples, some of them being sub-saharan africans ie 'Black') - such a
                    connection puts our (western) Greek heritage in some doubt.

                    But these are email discussions and a certain shorthand is required.
                    However, i personally feel this debate is essential for a more 'open'
                    understanding/appreciation of Fukuoka. It is not so much Christianity that
                    is my target as a world view (weltanschauung) implicit in the West that
                    tends to occlude the full possibilities and implications in Fukuoka.

                    You (Robert) wrote:


                    "The "I think therefore I am" idea in Western thoughtis the product of
                    rationality, which rejected the mysticism of the Church, and that is
                    also I think the source of the mind/body dualism, which I don't find at
                    all in the Bible, or the writings of the early church theologians, or in
                    the modern Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am not responsible for
                    everything that has been said by a Christian on the subject, but those
                    who have made a sharp distinction between the body and the spirit are
                    not doing Catholic theology."



                    I'm glad you mentioned Descartes as not only is it he who more than any
                    other ushered in the modern, rational era of western mankind (sex specific
                    noun intentional) but in Descartes you also hear the echo of the dualism I
                    have been alluding to in Christianity.

                    But curiously for Descartes, if not for later proponents of his deductive
                    thinking and the later inductive thinkers of modern science, this seemingly
                    egocentric pronouncement of veractiy in the world is not anchored to mankind
                    alone. When Descartes locked himself up for 3 days he did so to come to
                    understand what it was that he could understand most 'clearly and
                    distinctly' ie of what he was in least doubt about. But his evidence for the
                    underlying truth of his argument (the 'I think therefore i am' argument) was
                    that a loving God would not let mankind be deceived.

                    Therefore, the 'rational' is underwritten by a creator God, whether the
                    enlightenment or modern (or even post-modern) thinkers accept, understand,
                    or believe that. My point is that only creator God's (Judaeism, Christianity
                    and Islam) can underwrite the 'rational' world of the West. Whether it is
                    'God the creator' or 'Man the creator', the essential point is that a
                    creator is a subject that has a priveleged position in relation to objects
                    (or mind to matter, or mankind to nature, or man to woman).

                    However, Christianity is not monolithic but contains myriad threads within
                    it. From Robert's previous emails, I suspect that he and I are not
                    diametrically opposed (and anyway such a dichotomy would be to 'create' yet
                    another dualism we can well do without).

                    But there is a dualistic thread within Christianity (I would suggest the
                    early Church's confrontation with Gnosticism is more evidence of the
                    dualistic tendency, as would be the neo-platonism of Plotinus and even
                    Aquinas' attempt to incorporate Aristotle into Christianity) - but in its
                    quietism/mysticism (Meister Eckhardt would be an example) it is as close to
                    the 'the way' of Fukuoka as anything.

                    To reiterate my point: It is not important whether or not you are a
                    Christian but how you receive (as opposed to confront) thought which
                    challenges preconceptions.

                    Jamie
                    Souscayrous




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: robert waldrop [mailto:rmwj@...]
                    Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 3:13 AM
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: 2 Points


                    Well, let's see if I can get to the root of this problem without kicking
                    over an ant hill.

                    I think the first thing is that I do not equate Christianity with the
                    West. Christianity began in a land which is a bridge between Asia and
                    Europe, and flourished in the East for hundreds of years before falling
                    before Islam. Yes there was a lot of Greco Roman thought and Jewish
                    theology, but there was also the wisdom of ancient Egypt, Syria,
                    Chaldea, Armenia, etc. in the melting pot.

                    This is why your comment in another email:

                    "Openness, receptivity, egoless observation (meditation), harkening (not
                    looking/searching for) to nature (that which is other) and giving it a
                    place to abide within ourselves, is the best way I know for coming to
                    terms with much that is difficult or just plain different in Fukuoka."

                    sounds very Christian to me.

                    The "I think therefore I am" idea in Western thoughtis the product of
                    rationality, which rejected the mysticism of the Church, and that is
                    also I think the source of the mind/body dualism, which I don't find at
                    all in the Bible, or the writings of the early church theologians, or in
                    the modern Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am not responsible for
                    everything that has been said by a Christian on the subject, but those
                    who have made a sharp distinction between the body and the spirit are
                    not doing Catholic theology.

                    As to how this fits with natural farming, I see humanity's role in the
                    ecology of this planet is to be stewards not dominators. Like plants, we
                    have a need to put down roots. The longer I live at this little place
                    in the midst of a city, the more I belong here, the more I know this
                    place.

                    Even with four years of observation of my own little land, I am still
                    learning new things, in part because whether I want to or not, I am
                    impacting this land. I am trying to make that impact be intelligent,
                    and as often as not to impact by doing nothing rather than doing
                    something.

                    When I do "do something" I try to work with nature, not against it. And
                    most of the "doing" has involved "undoing" the dominator style landscape
                    that had been maintained here lo these many years, and then bringing
                    together seeds, cuttings, and plants and then observing how they grow
                    together.

                    I picked the first two strawberries of the season today, they were so
                    tempting I just ate them right on the spot, and they were so good.
                    perfect ripeness, beautiful color, so sweet but not sickening sweet like
                    a Coca Cola soft drink. To find them I had to reach down into a dense
                    thicket of flowering vetch, crimson clover, multiplying onions,
                    elderberries, dandelions, and strawberry plants surrounded by logs.
                    This year all I've had to do with that little patch is pull a little
                    bermuda grass from the edges. (I was recently given a digital camera,
                    and as soon as I figure out how to download the images to my computer,
                    hehehe, I'll have some more pictures to show.)

                    I believe all things were created by God, and that includes me, and that
                    all of Creation shares with God the ongoing joy of being actively
                    involved as integral parts of Creation. All things are truly connected.
                    and part of our divinization is to be co Creators with God. If we
                    abandon this to become dominators, we feed the culture of death.

                    God is as real as I am, I am as real as God is. We eat his flesh and
                    drink his blood as part of our liturgy. And as they say, "you are what
                    you eat." This is the mystical aspect, and it is only the barest
                    skimming of the surface. Within Christianity there are a number of
                    spiritual paths, my own is generally referred to as "contemplative in
                    action", which seeks to inform ones daily life in the world with the
                    deepest contemplative mysteries, and I use a variety of meditation
                    practices and disciplines to develop this and make it real in my daily
                    life. Many centuries ago there was a monk, Brother Lawrence, who was
                    dishwasher in a monastery. Even so he wrote a little book, and
                    explained how by practicing the presence of God he was as close to God
                    when washing dishes in the kitchen as he was during High Mass at the
                    Cathedral.

                    Besides mysticism, there is also an aspect of social theology, as I see
                    natural farming as also being a reflection of the Catholic Church's
                    teachings on social issues, which have generally been more explicitly
                    developed over the last 120 years or so, Rerum Novarum by Pope Leo XIII
                    in the 1890s is considered to be the first of a long line of papal
                    encyclicals dedicated to social issues.

                    Among many things that could be cited about this teaching, the Church
                    says that rural communities are important, and as someone who was raised
                    on a farm, and has watched the rural community he was born into wither
                    over the last 50 years, it is clear to me that farming methods in this
                    country must change. Conventional farms in the US are factories, not
                    ecosystems. Inputs are hauled in and products are hauled out.

                    As a lay Catholic, it is my special calling to take these teachings and
                    apply them to concrete situations, and it is obvious to me that natural
                    farming is one way to do this.

                    I really hope this is helpful.

                    Robert Waldrop, OKc

                    jamie wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Robert, I respect your devotion and your ministry in OKC, I've been
                    > following your progress since stumbling upon your BetterTimes ezine a
                    couple
                    > of years ago - I appreciate the regular updates you send to the group.
                    >
                    > I know you're a busy man but perhaps it would be useful to the group to
                    hear
                    > a more detailed account of your Christian understanding of Fukuoka and NF.
                    I
                    > find I'm far too often muttering negatively about dualism and the failure
                    of
                    > the West...etc etc ad infinitum. I'd certainly appreciate the opportunity
                    of
                    > constructing a positive dialogue to draw out the connections between
                    Fukuoka
                    > and Christianity which I'm sure exist but that I don't have the necessary
                    > experience/insight to have drawn for myself.
                    >
                    > Jamie
                    > Souscayrous
                    >



                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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