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RE: [fukuoka_farming] grass

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  • jamie
    Hello jean-claude, thanks for the suggestions, I like the idea of using the grass strip as a feed for animals (not dissimilar to Bill Mollison s saying: you
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 26, 2003
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      Hello jean-claude, thanks for the suggestions, I like the idea of using the
      grass strip as a feed for animals (not dissimilar to Bill Mollison's saying:
      'you don't have a slug problem but a duck deficit') and could work with a
      few chickens, at least they may be perfect for preparing the ground for some
      seeding of local herb species.

      Unfortunately, my ongoing experiment with white clover is looking
      increasingly like a failure, as predicted by Emilia, but I wanted to
      understand why Fukuoka was so vehement in his recommendation for white
      clover in the 'PlowBoy' interview. Planted last autumn onto several raised
      beds and part of my 'waterless' garden (waterless as in not irrigated, it
      receives the same amount of rain as elsewhere) it has been slow to establish
      and is patchy, allowing grass, thistles, dandelions, plantain etc to become
      thoroughly established. I know it is supposed to spread to slowly eradicate
      such volunteers and I still hope it does, but I'm fairly convinced that come
      the summer it will shrivel and die in the drought. In comparison to the
      mustard I seeded at the same time into almost identical beds, that is
      currently flowering and has done much to inhibit the growth of volunteer
      annuals (which I shall let go to seed for this autumns seeding into the
      clover beds), the clover has been pitiful. I have water this year and might
      water the clover beds a little to try and keep it alive over the summer in
      the hope that if able to become firmly established it might, in time, come
      to do exactly what you and Fukuoka propose.

      Jamie
      Souscayrous

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry [mailto:instinct@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 7:27 AM
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] grass


      If anyone has used an organic alternative,
      or can recommend some other techniques for control I (and many others I
      suspect) would appreciate some advice - who knows it might just be as simple
      as getting the right depth of mulch on at the right time!
      The idea that comes in my mind right away ,using animals to do the job ( a
      chicken or rabbit run acting as a buffer between the wild part and your
      beds could get rid of the grass ( it implie doubble fencing or a tunnel kind
      of structure )
      depending on the situation, might no be practical to realise .
      the second will be to sow other kind of weeds that could take over .
      In the meadow invaded by couch grass and other grasses. sowing white clover
      then cutting many times the grasses will allow the clover to take over .In
      some places grasses disappeared almost completelly .
      The field was also invaded with wild carrots and daisies , and me, by
      allowing those plants to do their job and not cutting them as in the part
      of the field that was still mowed for hay every year , they were almost gone
      and replaced by differents weeds. so plant cover evolve with time and we
      could use that in the direction wanted .
      you could for ex establish a edge of bushes that could shut down the grass
      with their shade .
      jean-claude






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    • J. P.
      ... as if I had dug it, oxidizing the soil and possibly causing more harm than if I had left the grass alone. Only I know that the grass would continue to
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 26, 2003
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        >>>At the end I had an edge to the bed that was to all intents and purposes
        as
        if I had dug it, oxidizing the soil and possibly causing more harm than if I
        had left the grass alone. Only I know that the grass would continue to
        spread and fill and I’d then have difficulty growing vegetables in it.

        I absolutely know what you are up against. I'm gardening on a city lot, and
        "reclaim" my beds from what used to be lawn. the lawn is heavily Cynodon
        dactylon which means massive thick stolon invasion across my borders. you
        are so right, that in short time no veggies could grow in this.

        People on the GardeningOrganically elist gave me several suggestions for
        solarizing but none of these work. If you put down plastic, the intense
        heat kills all else and the Cynodon dactylon stolons persist, turning white
        for lack of sunlight. Someone suggested 20% vinegar, but this only affects
        the visible tops, and the living stolons below go on to grow more tops. I
        would venture that the infrared weeder would similarly kill only the tops
        and do little about the deep hidden stolons.

        My conclusion is that a purist Fukuoka treatment of this monster will not
        work. You do have to dig it. So far my greatest successes have been when I
        dug the land down about 18" below all the stolons, and sifted the top with
        my fingers looking for bits of stolons (a chopped bit even 1/4" long will
        resprout). of course you destroy your soil structure when you do this. I
        planted with mycorrhizae and turned in some compost, with a top dressing of
        more compost. then the weeding began. every time I saw even the tiniest
        bit of resprout, I attacked and spot dug it. you cannot merely pull it, you
        have to lift earth to remove the bit of stolon. as your veggies grow in,
        this becomes more difficult because the sprouts hide next to the stems of
        plants, and a stolon bit lodged beneath the root structure of a new plant
        means you're in deep trouble. hardly a no-work garden!

        the last paragraph of this http://utahweeds.tripod.com/bermuda.html alludes
        to a solution some think will work - the idea that once you establish a
        green cover the Cynodon dactylon will not grow well - it gets scrawny in the
        shade of other plantings. I don't agree entirely. in my experience it gets
        scrawny only in the combination of shade, thick mulch and drought. it takes
        the above-ground route under these conditions; the stolons don't tend to
        plunge below ground, but rather trail along the surface. in my xeriscape
        beds with established shrubs and heavy top mulch the Cynodon dactylon is
        scrawny, however it still requires 2x year weeding to pull the lengthy mess
        out of the shrubs. see "stolon bit" discussion in paragraph above, so
        resprout continues to occur. in my well irrigated vegetable area, however,
        the resprouts are lusty and green and I know that I cannot allow them to
        grow for long or I'll have lost the entire bed.

        and the other flaw in this idea is, what do they propose you do in the
        interim, before your cover gets established?

        one wildlife preserve near me (Madrona Marsh, Torrance) has outbreaks of
        Cynodon dactylon beneath their native overstory. they seem to manage it by
        merely weedwacking its tops, but it's important to note that they do not
        have understory in this portion. they do not irrigate (all is au natural,
        which means zero precipitation from March to November) so the blazing sun
        and drought confine it naturally to the filtered shade of the massive
        shrubs. this would work for a natural style orchard, but not for the
        layered plantings and understory where we desire to grow the vegetable type
        plants.

        I do so wish I could find a Fukuoka style solution to this. but Cynodon
        dactylon is essentially an invasive exotic in my area (not listed as such on
        the official lists, and so neighbors still seed it, and it still repopulates
        via birds as well). There are a great number of modifications to Fukuoka
        theory that would have to be done to work in this area, because he was
        clearly dealing with a climate that had far more natural water and far less
        invasive exotic issues (we have no annual chill that kills stuff off). I've
        posted my thoughts on the drought issue before (see list archives and search
        for "native plants").

        Good luck to you with your grass, and please ***do share*** any organic
        successes you have!!!

        Joanne
        Los Angeles, California
      • Golden Dotter
        Dear Joanne, I was refering only to the edge work (where the stolons have not developed) with the infrared weeder. I agree, the only way I have found
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 26, 2003
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          Dear Joanne,

          I was refering only to the edge work (where the
          stolons have not developed) with the infrared weeder.
          I agree, the only way I have found successful with
          Bermuda and Kikuyu grasses is to dig them out and
          gradually remove them completely from the garden.

          Golden
          Santa Cruz, CA



          --- "J. P." <jpoy@...> wrote:
          > >>>At the end I had an edge to the bed that was to
          > all intents and purposes
          > as
          > if I had dug it, oxidizing the soil and possibly
          > causing more harm than if I
          > had left the grass alone. Only I know that the grass
          > would continue to
          > spread and fill and I�d then have difficulty growing
          > vegetables in it.
          >
          > I absolutely know what you are up against. I'm
          > gardening on a city lot, and
          > "reclaim" my beds from what used to be lawn. the
          > lawn is heavily Cynodon
          > dactylon which means massive thick stolon invasion
          > across my borders. you
          > are so right, that in short time no veggies could
          > grow in this.
          >
          > People on the GardeningOrganically elist gave me
          > several suggestions for
          > solarizing but none of these work. If you put down
          > plastic, the intense
          > heat kills all else and the Cynodon dactylon stolons
          > persist, turning white
          > for lack of sunlight. Someone suggested 20%
          > vinegar, but this only affects
          > the visible tops, and the living stolons below go on
          > to grow more tops. I
          > would venture that the infrared weeder would
          > similarly kill only the tops
          > and do little about the deep hidden stolons.
          >
          > My conclusion is that a purist Fukuoka treatment of
          > this monster will not
          > work. You do have to dig it. So far my greatest
          > successes have been when I
          > dug the land down about 18" below all the stolons,
          > and sifted the top with
          > my fingers looking for bits of stolons (a chopped
          > bit even 1/4" long will
          > resprout). of course you destroy your soil
          > structure when you do this. I
          > planted with mycorrhizae and turned in some compost,
          > with a top dressing of
          > more compost. then the weeding began. every time I
          > saw even the tiniest
          > bit of resprout, I attacked and spot dug it. you
          > cannot merely pull it, you
          > have to lift earth to remove the bit of stolon. as
          > your veggies grow in,
          > this becomes more difficult because the sprouts hide
          > next to the stems of
          > plants, and a stolon bit lodged beneath the root
          > structure of a new plant
          > means you're in deep trouble. hardly a no-work
          > garden!
          >
          > the last paragraph of this
          > http://utahweeds.tripod.com/bermuda.html alludes
          > to a solution some think will work - the idea that
          > once you establish a
          > green cover the Cynodon dactylon will not grow well
          > - it gets scrawny in the
          > shade of other plantings. I don't agree entirely.
          > in my experience it gets
          > scrawny only in the combination of shade, thick
          > mulch and drought. it takes
          > the above-ground route under these conditions; the
          > stolons don't tend to
          > plunge below ground, but rather trail along the
          > surface. in my xeriscape
          > beds with established shrubs and heavy top mulch the
          > Cynodon dactylon is
          > scrawny, however it still requires 2x year weeding
          > to pull the lengthy mess
          > out of the shrubs. see "stolon bit" discussion in
          > paragraph above, so
          > resprout continues to occur. in my well irrigated
          > vegetable area, however,
          > the resprouts are lusty and green and I know that I
          > cannot allow them to
          > grow for long or I'll have lost the entire bed.
          >
          > and the other flaw in this idea is, what do they
          > propose you do in the
          > interim, before your cover gets established?
          >
          > one wildlife preserve near me (Madrona Marsh,
          > Torrance) has outbreaks of
          > Cynodon dactylon beneath their native overstory.
          > they seem to manage it by
          > merely weedwacking its tops, but it's important to
          > note that they do not
          > have understory in this portion. they do not
          > irrigate (all is au natural,
          > which means zero precipitation from March to
          > November) so the blazing sun
          > and drought confine it naturally to the filtered
          > shade of the massive
          > shrubs. this would work for a natural style
          > orchard, but not for the
          > layered plantings and understory where we desire to
          > grow the vegetable type
          > plants.
          >
          > I do so wish I could find a Fukuoka style solution
          > to this. but Cynodon
          > dactylon is essentially an invasive exotic in my
          > area (not listed as such on
          > the official lists, and so neighbors still seed it,
          > and it still repopulates
          > via birds as well). There are a great number of
          > modifications to Fukuoka
          > theory that would have to be done to work in this
          > area, because he was
          > clearly dealing with a climate that had far more
          > natural water and far less
          > invasive exotic issues (we have no annual chill that
          > kills stuff off). I've
          > posted my thoughts on the drought issue before (see
          > list archives and search
          > for "native plants").
          >
          > Good luck to you with your grass, and please ***do
          > share*** any organic
          > successes you have!!!
          >
          > Joanne
          > Los Angeles, California
          >
          >
          >
        • Gloria Baikauskas
          Jamie......I have not yet read the few books I have seen available re weeds telling you much about your soil. Saying that, though, is not thistle a sign that
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 26, 2003
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            Jamie......I have not yet read the few books I have seen available re weeds telling you much about your soil. Saying that, though, is not thistle a sign that your soil needs more carbon?

            One of the bonuses I have noticed about my 'no mow' plan of last year is that I now have clovers growing where before there were none.....that I did not plant. It has been a part of my plan to let Nature tell me how to go...and what to do re planning my gardens. With engineering (for now) small round mounds with swales I am abrogating that a bit........but only in a portion of my land. All of this makes me wonder if we should not also think of the birds, etc, and their role in planting volunteer plants for us which they do by dropping single seeds as they fly, etc. I have been watching....and trying so hard to listen to Nature...my land...watching it, trying to see what I should do from that.

            I first began digging my swales without thinking. Then I began to notice the natural paths of the water and decided that is where I should be digging them. I have yet to put that into practice....but I shall. Before I was digging where I thought the water would flow down the hill instead of seeing where it did flow. I think that is one way we so often make mistakes........We interfere with Nature without meaning to do so. That is why we have our failures....myself included. It is a difficult thing to grasp for most of us. And yet......to that end.....and forgive me in this.....even throwing seed, or clayballs seems to me in a way interfere if we are not careful to see where Nature is trying to tell us is best to throw them. Even my mounds are most likely an interference. It has begun to nag at me a bit. Where do we draw the line, Jamie?

            Gloria


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Robert Monie
            Hi Michiyo, Fukuoka did receive a $10,000 Rockefeller grant in 1998 to write a textbook on how to make clayballs. I don t know if the terms of the grant
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 26, 2003
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              Hi Michiyo,

              Fukuoka did receive a $10,000 Rockefeller grant in 1998 to write a "textbook" on how to "make clayballs." I don't know if the terms of the grant specified the langauge the textbook had to be written in. I don't even know if "Traveling with Seedballs" was that book. There are photos in "Traveling" that show Fukuoka making seedballs in little cement mixers (with the blades removed?) But the huge number of photographs from all over the world make the book more of a travelogue than an instruction manual on making seedballs. I am pretty certain that the "Traveling with Seedballs" was published only in Japanese and never translated into English. (I started translating it for myself, with the help of a Japanese friend, but we never got far and she was very confused by the botanical/agricultural terminology.)

              It is a paradox that Fukuoka would accept this grant money to write an instruction manual on "how to make clayballs" if he wants to keep the whole thing secret or confined to a small group by oral transmission. It is equally a paradox that he would agree to write a textbook if he did not intend to teach specific techniques; what else could a "how to make" book teach?

              If Honmi's friends are talking about getting a "patent" for seedballs, what would that mean? Would writers have to license the right to publish articles on seedballs from her or would she have exclusive rights to produce seedballs? That sounds more like




              Michiyo Shibuya <michiyos@...> wrote: Hello Bob,

              I have never seen them adding any types of organic material to clay. For
              planting on a field or areas of
              normal climate, all seeds are mixed before made into balls, that way you
              will automatically have different
              kinds of seeds in one ball. Ideally two or three, I heard.

              I am only a big fan of Fukuoka, I have very little experience in natural
              farming and I don't know him very well.
              He lives in Ehime, South of Japan, ten hours or so from where I live(Tokyo
              area) by express train.
              I don't see Honma-san often either although she also lives in Tokyo.

              Once I thought I would illustrate how to make seedballs and garden from what
              I learned, but when I thought about it well,
              I thought that I really shouldn't write anything down because they seem to
              be trying
              to preserve Fukuoka method as an oral/word of mouth tradition, and that is
              why nothing written is available.

              I have never seen anything written on "how to" make clayballs or its theory.
              I know that Ms. Honma is the only person who has the authority
              to teach, and as she is consciously avoiding to write it down on a paper, I
              shouldn't either.
              (I remember someone was talking about a patent)

              Well this is Japan, it is a culture that has a different approach to
              learning from Western countries.
              But I am also aware that there are people who really want to learn but never
              get a chance to see him in person.
              So I don't know what to do. Is the internet forum a part of oral culture or
              a part of written tradition?

              It looks like more Japanese people than any time in the past are giving
              great respect to Fukuoka-san, and there are
              people who are starting natural farming this year. So, Fukuoka-san's stance
              may be changing, and Japan may be changing
              (slowly).

              I personally can't wait to leave Tokyo to start and try to see with my eyes
              if natural farming really works. But where?
              I am thinking and waiting for a chance. Meanwhile I want to give as much
              support as I can to Honma-san and Fukuoka-san.

              I know that Fukuoka-san is thinking about making a revision of the last book
              (travelling with seedballs),
              (and this is an idea that just popped up my mind today, but) is it a good
              idea for me to ask Fukuoka-san
              to make that revision in bilingual? What happened to $10,000 grants for
              books in English?
              Does anyone own the book with a collection of photographs in English?

              I don't think Fukuoka-san is aware of this group. I only found this group
              out a week
              ago when I was making a booklist for Honma-san.
              I usually don't use computer at all, and this has been a little strange for
              me
              to keep up to an internet discussion(I will try as long as possible) but my
              mind may not be
              able to stand it for a long period of time.

              Michiyo



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            • corfuku
              hi michiyo, i don t know if anyone has already mentioned it: the italian version of the one-straw revolution is.... La Rivoluzione del Filo di Paglia
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 26, 2003
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                hi michiyo,

                i don't know if anyone has already mentioned it: the italian version
                of the "one-straw revolution" is....


                La Rivoluzione del Filo di Paglia

                Published by: Quaderni d'Ontignano

                ...and i think it was published in 1983.



                bye,

                pavle
              • jamie
                Hello Joanne, Gloria et al, I ve been looking at my land and the grass encroachment again this morning and can see that unless I work out a natural solution
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 27, 2003
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                  Hello Joanne, Gloria et al, I've been looking at my land and the grass
                  encroachment again this morning and can see that unless I work out a natural
                  solution I'll not be able to find a long term solution. I've some mustard
                  seeded on some raised beds to build organic matter (green manure) and I
                  shall leave a thick wedge of the mustard in place at the point of contact
                  with the 'wild' border and see if the dense root mass of the mustard can
                  prevent the grass encroaching on the bed. I've also planted into another
                  edge (between raised bed and wild border) some chives that I've had up on
                  the roof terrace, again to make a band to prevent the grass moving onto the
                  bed. I'm also going to seed other 'edges' with a mix of local herbs - I'll
                  let you know how they perform next year (I'll also be able to tell then
                  whether the clover in some other of the raised beds is fulfilling its role).

                  It seems to me that this tactic of planting (seeding direct or seedballing)
                  tough competitors for the grass has to be the one beneficial long-term
                  solution. Not only does it require little work (the clipping of the grass in
                  order to give the seeds a glimpse of the sun) but it should then continue to
                  do the job without further work. Culinary herbs are also useful if not for
                  our own kitchen then we can add it to the produce for sale. Any further
                  advice and varieties to try would certainly be appreciated, especially if
                  they have a known ability to counter grass growth (some form of
                  allelopathy - here I'm thinking of annual grasses such as the rye grass
                  Gloria mentioned - I'm letting all the annual grasses I find grow through to
                  maturity so I can collect their seeds and use them as some form of winter
                  green manure/bed cleaning crop, similar to Emilia's mustard/ winter rye
                  combination).

                  Jamie
                  Souscayrous

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: J. P. [mailto:jpoy@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 4:08 PM
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] RE: grass

                  >>>At the end I had an edge to the bed that was to all intents and purposes
                  as
                  if I had dug it, oxidizing the soil and possibly causing more harm than if I
                  had left the grass alone. Only I know that the grass would continue to
                  spread and fill and I'd then have difficulty growing vegetables in it.

                  I absolutely know what you are up against. I'm gardening on a city lot, and
                  "reclaim" my beds from what used to be lawn. the lawn is heavily Cynodon
                  dactylon which means massive thick stolon invasion across my borders. you
                  are so right, that in short time no veggies could grow in this.

                  People on the GardeningOrganically elist gave me several suggestions for
                  solarizing but none of these work. If you put down plastic, the intense
                  heat kills all else and the Cynodon dactylon stolons persist, turning white
                  for lack of sunlight. Someone suggested 20% vinegar, but this only affects
                  the visible tops, and the living stolons below go on to grow more tops. I
                  would venture that the infrared weeder would similarly kill only the tops
                  and do little about the deep hidden stolons.

                  My conclusion is that a purist Fukuoka treatment of this monster will not
                  work. You do have to dig it. So far my greatest successes have been when I
                  dug the land down about 18" below all the stolons, and sifted the top with
                  my fingers looking for bits of stolons (a chopped bit even 1/4" long will
                  resprout). of course you destroy your soil structure when you do this. I
                  planted with mycorrhizae and turned in some compost, with a top dressing of
                  more compost. then the weeding began. every time I saw even the tiniest
                  bit of resprout, I attacked and spot dug it. you cannot merely pull it, you
                  have to lift earth to remove the bit of stolon. as your veggies grow in,
                  this becomes more difficult because the sprouts hide next to the stems of
                  plants, and a stolon bit lodged beneath the root structure of a new plant
                  means you're in deep trouble. hardly a no-work garden!

                  the last paragraph of this http://utahweeds.tripod.com/bermuda.html alludes
                  to a solution some think will work - the idea that once you establish a
                  green cover the Cynodon dactylon will not grow well - it gets scrawny in the
                  shade of other plantings. I don't agree entirely. in my experience it gets
                  scrawny only in the combination of shade, thick mulch and drought. it takes
                  the above-ground route under these conditions; the stolons don't tend to
                  plunge below ground, but rather trail along the surface. in my xeriscape
                  beds with established shrubs and heavy top mulch the Cynodon dactylon is
                  scrawny, however it still requires 2x year weeding to pull the lengthy mess
                  out of the shrubs. see "stolon bit" discussion in paragraph above, so
                  resprout continues to occur. in my well irrigated vegetable area, however,
                  the resprouts are lusty and green and I know that I cannot allow them to
                  grow for long or I'll have lost the entire bed.

                  and the other flaw in this idea is, what do they propose you do in the
                  interim, before your cover gets established?

                  one wildlife preserve near me (Madrona Marsh, Torrance) has outbreaks of
                  Cynodon dactylon beneath their native overstory. they seem to manage it by
                  merely weedwacking its tops, but it's important to note that they do not
                  have understory in this portion. they do not irrigate (all is au natural,
                  which means zero precipitation from March to November) so the blazing sun
                  and drought confine it naturally to the filtered shade of the massive
                  shrubs. this would work for a natural style orchard, but not for the
                  layered plantings and understory where we desire to grow the vegetable type
                  plants.

                  I do so wish I could find a Fukuoka style solution to this. but Cynodon
                  dactylon is essentially an invasive exotic in my area (not listed as such on
                  the official lists, and so neighbors still seed it, and it still repopulates
                  via birds as well). There are a great number of modifications to Fukuoka
                  theory that would have to be done to work in this area, because he was
                  clearly dealing with a climate that had far more natural water and far less
                  invasive exotic issues (we have no annual chill that kills stuff off). I've
                  posted my thoughts on the drought issue before (see list archives and search
                  for "native plants").

                  Good luck to you with your grass, and please ***do share*** any organic
                  successes you have!!!

                  Joanne
                  Los Angeles, California




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                • Michiyo Shibuya
                  ... Actually I have seen them do both: in clay and direct. I think that they usually prefer seeds in clay, but you don t always have enough time for all
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 27, 2003
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                    > Regarding seedballs: Michiyo and everyone, the use of seedballs
                    > as mentioned
                    > seems to be to ensure that a few species are suited to the
                    > environment where
                    > seeded, to achieve the aim of weed suppression. But would it not
                    > be simpler
                    > to seed a few species direct at the right time without using seedballs? I
                    > know my western preconceptions (weltanschauung) lead me to the direct
                    > seeded, non-seedball method, but does Fukuoka now favour
                    > seedballs over all
                    > else because it removes humanity as much as possible from
                    > insisting he knows
                    > best about what to sow and when? It is a question upon which much
                    > depends -
                    > it is also a question I'm about to take up in reference to another post.
                    >

                    Actually I have seen them do both: in clay and direct. I think that they
                    usually prefer
                    seeds in clay, but you don't always have enough time for all preparation.
                    When sowing direct, they would use a pointed twig for poking the ground in
                    order for seeds to fit in.
                    I still prefer clay, but I have not learned how I would deal with seeds like
                    marygold which seeds can get
                    damaged in clay. Maybe someone can help me with this?

                    Michiyo
                  • Michiyo Shibuya
                    Hello Pavle Thank you for your infomation. Thank you again, Bettina, and Bob. Michiyo
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 27, 2003
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                      Hello Pavle
                      Thank you for your infomation.
                      Thank you again, Bettina, and Bob.

                      Michiyo
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