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SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: [fukuoka_farming] Permaculture

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  • howard.petts@defence.gov.au
    Jean-Claude Nice response to the differences between the two. Something people who are interested in permaculture might find interesting is that David
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 13 3:07 PM
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      Nice response to the differences between the two. Something people who are
      interested in permaculture might find interesting is that David Holmgren
      has published a new book (first in 25 years) on permaculture called
      "Permaculture: Principles and Pathways beyond Sustainability". Apparently
      he launches into a fully fledged philosophy of permaculture, around some
      key principles that are implicit but not fully stated in his initial
      writings. What I find interesting, from a Natural Farming perspective, is
      the move away from technique to thoughtful reflection on our actions in the
      world - is this a progression from systems/techniques to

      Check it out at www.holmgren.com.au.

      Also, Eden Seeds, an Australian retailer, has copies of Fukuoka's books for
      sale (if you can't get your hands on them anywhere else). They are at

      Howie +

      "Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry" <instinct@...> on 13/03/2003

      Please respond to fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>

      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Permaculture

      Does anyone else have a fondness for
      > permaculture, or any opinions about how the Fukuokan
      > system and it vary? I am interested in your thoughts
      > on this.

      for me there is a radical difference between permaculture and masanobu's
      that could be resume as permaculture being a human made design and natural
      farming a god's design .
      the difference is in "the perfecting human position on earth" idea seen as
      goal of natural farming .

      permaculture is trying to figure out intellectually, scientifically what
      masanobu see as
      pointless endeavor .
      I had also the pleasure to meet an indian from Kerala practicing over the
      years both permaculture and natural farming . it was clear that it was not
      the same approach for him and in fact quite contrary to each other in the
      attitude .

      Because of his doubts , as he said, he was trying to find answers in
      permaculture but many time had to go back to natural farming . ( he did
      switch back many time ). for him it was difficult to enbrass fully the non
      discriminative approach and not force his way thru because he was a
      business man and his mindset was
      impregnated by goal oriented attitude .

      It is not a mistake if permaculture is a pure product of the western world
      while masanobu comes from eastern philosophy . one might talk better to
      "educated "peoples .the other talk more to "faithfull" peoples or western
      peoples in the process of deschooling , dematerialising , spiritualising
      their life .

      In the practice of permaculture i have seen quite invasive approach using
      the bulldozer for ex to reshape the land .
      i have even an example of somebody new to the permaculture aproach using
      bulldozer to scrape the weeds off before sowing .I don't say that it is
      representative of permaculture but it is no surprise to me that
      permaculture can
      lead peoples to such actions .

      Masanobu also promote a simple life style also and doesn't seem to support
      the need for fancy housing with hungry requirements for energy .even if
      produced sustainably .

      the use of technology to adress water problems( irrigations ) for ex can
      have globally ( for earth health )perverse effects of sparing humans to be
      confronted to the real solutions that is to work intenselly on
      reconstituting the natural circulation of water ( using plants as pump
      ,water reserves etc.....)
      I have seen that in India where one farm purelly in the spirit of natural
      farming who discovered their stream running out after 2 years starting
      place , had to work very hard in protecting their watershed against grazing
      to allow it to regrow .For 6 years they did without year round water supply
      (months of complete drought) and had to walk down and up 3 km to just get
      their drinking and cooking water . they had to learn to grow crops in the
      most adverse conditions .
      In the other farm that was practicing at time permaculture, he used
      underground water a lot to support his garden and didn't see himself as an
      isolated little oasis among a desert ( cashew nuts on white sand with no
      undergrowth ) as a problem for his future .

      to resume you need to be in a position of being able to afford the
      permaculture approach . Really desesperate and poor peoples have to seek a
      more efficient way to deal with their situation .

      I appreciate permaculture as a means for western peoples to use
      discriminating thinking more intelligently and consideratly .to mimic
      natural processes.
      i appreciate natural farming as mean to question the "need" for
      discriminating thinking to perfect ourselves and reconcile with the rest of
      creation .

      Natural farming say just sow seeds ( i am preaching myself because i have
      hard time to just do that )
      let me know if i responded to your question ?

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