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perennial wheat

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  • tiakd14477 <sentree@hotmail.com>
    I am looking into perennial wheat and wondering if anybody knows of any sites or information on it - Larry?? I did a search on dogpile.com, but didn t get much
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 5, 2003
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      I am looking into perennial wheat and wondering if anybody knows of
      any sites or information on it - Larry?? I did a search on
      dogpile.com, but didn't get much as to if it is a perennial in my
      cold season, if it is handled and harvested the same way as other
      grains, what it looks like, it's growth and pollenation etc. Are the
      heads as plump as normal wheat, or do they resemble more wild
      grasses?
      We have not grown annual wheat yet, but were considering it this
      year to continue our journey to self sufficiency. I calculate we
      need no more than 20 bushels per year for our family and chickens,
      and that would be one acre at most even with a perennial that
      produces half what the annual wheat produces around here.
      I wonder if it would be a helpful solution to the annual "round-
      up ready" wheats that are planted here - no we don't use them! If it
      pollinates at a different/earlier time due to not being planted
      yearly and therefore getting a head start, possibly I could avoid
      cross pollination with the area farmer's fields of gmo wheat (I
      assume the annual wheat will cross-pollinate with perennial?). One
      reason we haven't planted wheat before - cross pollination with the
      neighbor's fields. I would be concerned with perennial wheat cross-
      pollinating with something I don't want - we already have a small
      amount of Round Up ready canola here and there in our field from the
      neighbor's planting 2 years ago. It will be eliminated by the
      pasture grasses and grazing, but I am not happy about it.
      And I wonder if it could be handled a bit like the alfalfa, and you
      could allow certain areas to go to seed to re-seed the field and
      avoid the planting every 3-4 years. Even do something like strips
      where you cut and harvest a 7 foot swath (size of our cutter) and
      let the 7 feet beside go to seed etc. I could fence it in and let
      the chickens in to fertilize and scatter some seeds for me - they
      are great for knocking grasses/grains over to get at the seeds and
      spreading straw. I never have to spread straw for the cows, as I
      just open bales and the chickens scatter the bales evenly and
      beautifully within an hour or two. They even spread their own
      bedding for me :<). I already planned on planting an area to
      wheat, oats and barley and using it as a fall self-feeding area for
      the chickens to harvest their own grains for a month or two out of
      the year. What they didn't eat would hopefully germinate the next
      year and continue it's own cycle.
      If the perennial wheat could be cut for straw also, one could
      do the same strip cutting, skip combining and just gather and feed
      an armful a day to the chickens which would provide bedding, or you
      could quickly gather up the straw they'd picked through, and use it
      for other animal's bedding. My cows only have access to shelter
      during the coldest nights, so I could scatter the straw with heads
      in the shelter and let the chickens pick at it during the day which
      would avoid the combining/threshing stage. And if I baled it, some
      of the seed would be scattered in the baling process and hopefully
      help re-seed the area annually. I'm getting all sorts of ideas!
      ANYWAY. . . any info on perennial grains would be appreciated.
      Regards
      Heather
    • Larry Haftl
      Hi Heather, ... I ve been doing a lot of research on it for an article (not related to Fukuoka directly). I can tell you what I know, but so far that is very
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 5, 2003
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        Hi Heather,

        >I am looking into perennial wheat and wondering if anybody knows of
        >any sites or information on it - Larry?? I did a search on
        >dogpile.com, but didn't get much as to if it is a perennial in my
        >cold season, if it is handled and harvested the same way as other
        >grains, what it looks like, it's growth and pollenation etc. Are the
        >heads as plump as normal wheat, or do they resemble more wild
        >grasses?

        I've been doing a lot of research on it for an article (not related
        to Fukuoka directly). I can tell you what I know, but so far that
        is very little.

        In the US there are only three places I've found that are even working
        on it. The Land Institute is, as they say in Texas, all hat and no
        cattle, meaning that after a couple of decades and millions of dollars
        they don't have anything yet. Washington State University is a bit
        ahead of them. They have, allegedly, developed at least one strain
        of perennial wheat but will not release it. It appears they are more
        concerned with potential future royalties than public good even though
        all of the research was funded by government grants. The third source
        actually has accomplished the miracle and you can buy seeds from
        him. I say him because all of the work was done over more than two
        decades by one guy working without government or corporate funding.
        His name is Tim Peters, he lives near Myrtle Creek, Oregon, and
        his website, where you can buy the seeds, is http://www.petersseed
        com (we have a link to his site on the website under "plant and
        seed sources"

        I interviewed Peters in person last week. He lives only 90 miles
        south of me down the interstate. I saw perennial wheat, perennial
        rye and perennial sorghum (the fodder kind, not the seed kind). I
        also saw the harvested wheat and the plants it was harvested from.
        Looks and tastes like regular wheat to me. The plants put up stalks
        like regular wheat, the head out, and can be harvested like regular
        wheat, though Peters does this by hand as he selects seed for the
        next generation very carefully. I think he is into his seventh or
        eighth stable generation on these plants and keeps improving the
        strains. After harvesting the heads/seeds the stalks can be cut and
        left in place as mulch or, I guess, removed for use elsewhere. Looks
        like regular wheat straw to me. At the base of the plant, even though
        the seed stalks had turned into straw, there were a lot of shorter
        green leaves. This is a true perennial and regrows each year from
        the base. He said the best thing to do after harvest is to let animals
        graze it or else just cut it down to a few inches above the ground.
        It was thriving in an area that gets pretty cold (it was in single
        digits the week before I was there and the plants all looked very
        healthy. No dieoff or winter kill. But I don't know if they would
        survive your winters.

        I have to interview Peters again, probably later this week, and will
        ask him your questions along with a bunch more of my own. I'll post
        what he says here. Unfortuntately, his website doesn't give much
        information about the plants beyond a minimal description.

        I'm guessing that since the plants grow from their roots/base, if
        you could keep that from freezing by grazing the stuff low and then
        covering it with a layer of mulch they might survive you climate,
        but I am only guessing. I'll find out.

        Outside of the US I have only found a thin lead on some work that
        was done in Russia. So far it looks like the result is less than
        spectacular, but it's too soon to tell.

        As to yields, if you consider the decades of research and millions
        and millions of dollars that went into improving the annual wheat
        strains, I would not expect the perennial variety to match those
        yields. But from what I saw I think you could easily get your 20
        bushels from an acre of this stuff. The heads looked as dense as
        any wheat I've ever seen, but the plants were not planted as closely
        as regular wheat. I think this might be due to the way he plants
        for breeding rather than maximum harvest.

        I know that doesn't answer all your questions, but it's the best
        I can do so far. When I learn more I'll let you know. FWIW, I plan
        on planting some of the wheat this spring and I have already plugged
        a bunch of perennial rye into my "orchard" area. Peters was kind
        enough to give me two bags full of the rye plants and I made good
        use of them.

        Larry Haftl
        larry@...
        http://LarryHaftl.com
        http://FukuokaFarmingOL.net
      • Tim Peters
        heather, this is tim, was thinking to answer your perennial wheat questions, as I have as much experience as anyone in the matters relative to what you wish to
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 5, 2003
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          heather,

          this is tim, was thinking to answer your perennial wheat questions, as I
          have as much experience as anyone in the matters relative to what you wish
          to know.

          where are you located?

          Pollenation: wheats are nearly 100% self pollenating, as a general rule.
          you have virtually nothing to fear from a GM neighbor. ...and perennials
          tend to bloom later.

          the heads are more or less of an intermediate appearance, between the wild
          father and wheat mother. In other words, longer and more slender, less
          compacted heads.

          seeds are normal wheat sizes, though most are longer, ...

          on decent ground 1/2 acre should get you your 20 bushel without problem if
          it is sown early enough in the late summmer-fall (by oct.)

          the best way to use for chickens is to cut and bale it, let the chickens
          pick it out, or brush-hog it down and let the chickens peck thru the
          brushhoggins, which they will do quite nicely

          "Threshability" is a major area of effort in my work. Right now all per.
          wheats that are available are more difficult to thresh than annuals. They
          are basically intermediate to the wild grasses as for that trait.

          try google as a search engine to hunt for per. grains. Go to
          psr@... for the only available seed, that I am aware of. I
          don't think you will find any elsewhere.

          as far as grain for your chickens I would suggest trying perennial sorghum
          instead of wheat, or per. rye grain. the birds do better on that than on
          wheats (unless they are soft wheats).

          hope this helps you,
          Tim
          psr@...
          Oregon USA


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <sentree@...>
          To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 6:06 PM
          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] perennial wheat


          > I am looking into perennial wheat and wondering if anybody knows of
          > any sites or information on it - Larry?? I did a search on
          > dogpile.com, but didn't get much as to if it is a perennial in my
          > cold season, if it is handled and harvested the same way as other
          > grains, what it looks like, it's growth and pollenation etc. Are the
          > heads as plump as normal wheat, or do they resemble more wild
          > grasses?
          > We have not grown annual wheat yet, but were considering it this
          > year to continue our journey to self sufficiency. I calculate we
          > need no more than 20 bushels per year for our family and chickens,
          > and that would be one acre at most even with a perennial that
          > produces half what the annual wheat produces around here.
          > I wonder if it would be a helpful solution to the annual "round-
          > up ready" wheats that are planted here - no we don't use them! If it
          > pollinates at a different/earlier time due to not being planted
          > yearly and therefore getting a head start, possibly I could avoid
          > cross pollination with the area farmer's fields of gmo wheat (I
          > assume the annual wheat will cross-pollinate with perennial?). One
          > reason we haven't planted wheat before - cross pollination with the
          > neighbor's fields. I would be concerned with perennial wheat cross-
          > pollinating with something I don't want - we already have a small
          > amount of Round Up ready canola here and there in our field from the
          > neighbor's planting 2 years ago. It will be eliminated by the
          > pasture grasses and grazing, but I am not happy about it.
          > And I wonder if it could be handled a bit like the alfalfa, and you
          > could allow certain areas to go to seed to re-seed the field and
          > avoid the planting every 3-4 years. Even do something like strips
          > where you cut and harvest a 7 foot swath (size of our cutter) and
          > let the 7 feet beside go to seed etc. I could fence it in and let
          > the chickens in to fertilize and scatter some seeds for me - they
          > are great for knocking grasses/grains over to get at the seeds and
          > spreading straw. I never have to spread straw for the cows, as I
          > just open bales and the chickens scatter the bales evenly and
          > beautifully within an hour or two. They even spread their own
          > bedding for me :<). I already planned on planting an area to
          > wheat, oats and barley and using it as a fall self-feeding area for
          > the chickens to harvest their own grains for a month or two out of
          > the year. What they didn't eat would hopefully germinate the next
          > year and continue it's own cycle.
          > If the perennial wheat could be cut for straw also, one could
          > do the same strip cutting, skip combining and just gather and feed
          > an armful a day to the chickens which would provide bedding, or you
          > could quickly gather up the straw they'd picked through, and use it
          > for other animal's bedding. My cows only have access to shelter
          > during the coldest nights, so I could scatter the straw with heads
          > in the shelter and let the chickens pick at it during the day which
          > would avoid the combining/threshing stage. And if I baled it, some
          > of the seed would be scattered in the baling process and hopefully
          > help re-seed the area annually. I'm getting all sorts of ideas!
          > ANYWAY. . . any info on perennial grains would be appreciated.
          > Regards
          > Heather
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
        • Gloria Baikauskas
          Larry, is this a new strain of perennial rye he has developed? I am asking because here in NorthCentral Texas we are always advised it is better for us to
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 6, 2003
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            Larry, is this a new strain of perennial rye he has developed? I am asking because here in NorthCentral Texas we are always advised it is better for us to plant annual rye rather than perennial rye. This is because.....and I know it doesn't make much sense........the annual rye does come back every year......and the perennial rye doesn't. It may be because of the heat in the summers. I really don't know. But.......I thought you might.

            Gloria




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jbmc@attglobal.net
            ... * * * * * * * If i understand You correctly, Mr. Peters, You appear to make the statement, - unintentionally perhaps and cer- tainly indirectly - to
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 6, 2003
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              Mr. Peters wrote:

              > "the best way to use for chickens is to cut and bale it, let the chickens
              > pick it out, or brush-hog it down and let the chickens peck thru the
              > brushhoggins, which they will do quite nicely".

              and continued:

              > "as far as grain for your chickens I would suggest trying perennial sorghum
              > instead of wheat, or per. rye grain. the birds do better on that than on
              > wheats (unless they are soft wheats)".

              * * * * * * *

              If i understand You correctly, Mr. Peters, You
              appear to make the statement, - unintentionally perhaps and cer-
              tainly indirectly - to the effect that "grains" - and "seeds" in gene-
              ral - are "for the birds". Obviously so, for, if not, they could not
              do their pecking that "quite nicely", as You have observed.

              And if i understand Mr. Fukuoka correctly,
              the core-objective of "natural farming" is the re-making of "natu-
              ral Man", for He fully realizes that Man has undergone a most
              destructive and degenerative "involutive" process.

              Now, i do understand that the most ideal
              person to express to my bewilderment relative to the re-
              naturalization of Man by virtue of birds' feed, would most cer-
              tainly be Mr. Fukuoka Himself. He, however, not being - most
              unfortunately - available, i wonder whether You would share
              with me Your thinking on this very crucial subject.

              As a matter of fact, i would be most obliged
              to any Member of this Forum Who would share Her/His
              comment with us all.

              My best regards,
              jb
              Mirabile-caruso.
            • Larry Haftl
              Hi Gloria, ... I am asking ... does come ... Are you talking about the grass or the grain? The valley I live in produces something like 90% of all the annual
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 6, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Gloria,

                >Larry, is this a new strain of perennial rye he has developed?
                I am asking
                >because here in NorthCentral Texas we are always advised it is better
                >for us to plant annual rye rather than perennial rye. This is because.
                >....and I know it doesn't make much sense........the annual rye
                does come
                >back every year......and the perennial rye doesn't. It may be because
                >of the heat in the summers. I really don't know. But.......I thought
                >you might.

                Are you talking about the grass or the grain? The valley I live in
                produces something like 90% of all the annual and perennial rye grass
                seed planted in the US (I think), but as far as I know Peters is
                the only source for perennial rye grain (that I have found so far).
                Since he is now a list participant I will defer to him giving you
                the details about what he has done, which is, to me truly amazing.
                In fact, when I saw what he has done on perennial grains I had to
                revise my definition of amazing.

                Larry Haftl
                larry@...
                http://LarryHaftl.com
                http://FukuokaFarmingOL.net
              • Robert Monie
                Hi Tim Peters, Welcome to our Fukuoka Farming Site. Since we are talking perennial grains (and maybe vegetables too), do you know whatever became of the
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 6, 2003
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                  Hi Tim Peters,

                  Welcome to our Fukuoka Farming Site. Since we are talking perennial grains (and maybe vegetables too), do you know whatever became of the Perennial Vegetable Seed and Plant Exchange in Belchertown, MA?

                  A few years ago, they were going stong, with a seed catalog of perennial veggies and a few grains too (types you were developing, as I recall), as well as plans to publish a perennial forest garden book. Then, they suddenly disappeared, with nobody, so far as I can tell, trying to take their place.
                  Bob Monie, South Louisiana
                  Tim Peters <psr@...> wrote:heather,

                  this is tim, was thinking to answer your perennial wheat questions, as I
                  have as much experience as anyone in the matters relative to what you wish
                  to know.

                  where are you located?

                  Pollenation: wheats are nearly 100% self pollenating, as a general rule.
                  you have virtually nothing to fear from a GM neighbor. ...and perennials
                  tend to bloom later.

                  the heads are more or less of an intermediate appearance, between the wild
                  father and wheat mother. In other words, longer and more slender, less
                  compacted heads.

                  seeds are normal wheat sizes, though most are longer, ...

                  on decent ground 1/2 acre should get you your 20 bushel without problem if
                  it is sown early enough in the late summmer-fall (by oct.)

                  the best way to use for chickens is to cut and bale it, let the chickens
                  pick it out, or brush-hog it down and let the chickens peck thru the
                  brushhoggins, which they will do quite nicely

                  "Threshability" is a major area of effort in my work. Right now all per.
                  wheats that are available are more difficult to thresh than annuals. They
                  are basically intermediate to the wild grasses as for that trait.

                  try google as a search engine to hunt for per. grains. Go to
                  psr@... for the only available seed, that I am aware of. I
                  don't think you will find any elsewhere.

                  as far as grain for your chickens I would suggest trying perennial sorghum
                  instead of wheat, or per. rye grain. the birds do better on that than on
                  wheats (unless they are soft wheats).

                  hope this helps you,
                  Tim
                  psr@...
                  Oregon USA


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: <sentree@...>
                  To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 6:06 PM
                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] perennial wheat


                  > I am looking into perennial wheat and wondering if anybody knows of
                  > any sites or information on it - Larry?? I did a search on
                  > dogpile.com, but didn't get much as to if it is a perennial in my
                  > cold season, if it is handled and harvested the same way as other
                  > grains, what it looks like, it's growth and pollenation etc. Are the
                  > heads as plump as normal wheat, or do they resemble more wild
                  > grasses?
                  > We have not grown annual wheat yet, but were considering it this
                  > year to continue our journey to self sufficiency. I calculate we
                  > need no more than 20 bushels per year for our family and chickens,
                  > and that would be one acre at most even with a perennial that
                  > produces half what the annual wheat produces around here.
                  > I wonder if it would be a helpful solution to the annual "round-
                  > up ready" wheats that are planted here - no we don't use them! If it
                  > pollinates at a different/earlier time due to not being planted
                  > yearly and therefore getting a head start, possibly I could avoid
                  > cross pollination with the area farmer's fields of gmo wheat (I
                  > assume the annual wheat will cross-pollinate with perennial?). One
                  > reason we haven't planted wheat before - cross pollination with the
                  > neighbor's fields. I would be concerned with perennial wheat cross-
                  > pollinating with something I don't want - we already have a small
                  > amount of Round Up ready canola here and there in our field from the
                  > neighbor's planting 2 years ago. It will be eliminated by the
                  > pasture grasses and grazing, but I am not happy about it.
                  > And I wonder if it could be handled a bit like the alfalfa, and you
                  > could allow certain areas to go to seed to re-seed the field and
                  > avoid the planting every 3-4 years. Even do something like strips
                  > where you cut and harvest a 7 foot swath (size of our cutter) and
                  > let the 7 feet beside go to seed etc. I could fence it in and let
                  > the chickens in to fertilize and scatter some seeds for me - they
                  > are great for knocking grasses/grains over to get at the seeds and
                  > spreading straw. I never have to spread straw for the cows, as I
                  > just open bales and the chickens scatter the bales evenly and
                  > beautifully within an hour or two. They even spread their own
                  > bedding for me :<). I already planned on planting an area to
                  > wheat, oats and barley and using it as a fall self-feeding area for
                  > the chickens to harvest their own grains for a month or two out of
                  > the year. What they didn't eat would hopefully germinate the next
                  > year and continue it's own cycle.
                  > If the perennial wheat could be cut for straw also, one could
                  > do the same strip cutting, skip combining and just gather and feed
                  > an armful a day to the chickens which would provide bedding, or you
                  > could quickly gather up the straw they'd picked through, and use it
                  > for other animal's bedding. My cows only have access to shelter
                  > during the coldest nights, so I could scatter the straw with heads
                  > in the shelter and let the chickens pick at it during the day which
                  > would avoid the combining/threshing stage. And if I baled it, some
                  > of the seed would be scattered in the baling process and hopefully
                  > help re-seed the area annually. I'm getting all sorts of ideas!
                  > ANYWAY. . . any info on perennial grains would be appreciated.
                  > Regards
                  > Heather
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >


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                • tiakd 14477
                  Tim, I am located in Saskatchewan, a zone2b-3a area with short hot summers and long cold winters. Thanks for letting me know about the pollenation bit, though
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 6, 2003
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                    Tim, I am located in Saskatchewan, a zone2b-3a area with short hot summers
                    and long cold winters.
                    Thanks for letting me know about the pollenation bit, though now that I
                    think about it, maybe the wheats are not cross pollenating, just getting
                    into the fields. Wheat is coming up in fields that were treated with
                    Round-Up (not mine!) which should have killed them. They believe it is due
                    to birds, vehicles, strong winds, etc that are carrying the Round-Up Ready
                    wheat into other people's fields where it is then growing with the normal
                    wheat the next year. Then the seeds get mixed in with normal wheat and you
                    lose your pure seeds. But if it is different than the annual - in looks etc
                    - it would be easy to see the annual wheat in with your own.
                    Are other grains also self-pollinated? I wonder why my books say to watch
                    for cross-pollenation in grains.
                    Do you mean the grain sorghum? I have been reading about it, though nobody
                    grows it here.
                    Thanks
                    Heather

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                  • Robert Waldrop
                    I grew agrotriticum this last year, which is described as a perennial wheat, is this what you have or is it different? Unfortunately, a helpful friend came
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 6, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I grew agrotriticum this last year, which is described as a perennial
                      wheat, is this what you have or is it different? Unfortunately, a
                      "helpful" friend came by when I wasn't here and decided to "help" by
                      cleaning up a bed or two, and the one he started with was the
                      agrotriticum, when I got home he had uprooted all of the plants. I
                      had harvested the grain and the stubble was left and he assumed it was
                      trash or something I guess. I have been thinking about making a sign
                      for my garden, "Please do not pull anything up without consulting with
                      the gardener first."

                      Oh well, I think i have some coming up here and there from seed that
                      fell.

                      Anyway, the agrotriticum looks just like wheat, the straw however
                      seems much tougher than regular wheat.

                      What spacing do you plant your perennial wheat?

                      Robert Waldrop, OKc
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Tim Peters <psr@...>
                      >"Threshability" is a major area of effort in my work. Right now all
                      per.
                      >wheats that are available are more difficult to thresh than annuals.
                      They
                      >are basically intermediate to the wild grasses as for that trait.
                      >
                      >try google as a search engine to hunt for per. grains. Go to
                      >psr@... for the only available seed, that I am aware of.
                      I
                      >don't think you will find any elsewhere.
                      >
                      >as far as grain for your chickens I would suggest trying perennial
                      sorghum
                      >instead of wheat, or per. rye grain. the birds do better on that than
                      on
                      >wheats (unless they are soft wheats).
                      >
                      >hope this helps you,
                      >Tim
                      >psr@...
                      >Oregon USA
                      >
                    • Tim Peters
                      Heather, yes, ...wind is likely the factor most responsible for the cross-field contamination, in your case, birds are a likely but rather distant 2nd. and
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 6, 2003
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                        Heather,
                        yes, ...wind is likely the factor most responsible for the cross-field
                        contamination, in your case, birds are a likely but rather distant 2nd. and
                        vehicles are an unlikely, unless you have them do your tractor work, or if
                        seed flys off a passing truck loaded with the RR wheat.

                        growers should be sued, class action style for contamination of all their
                        neighbors crops, before to many bow to the 'almighty' monsanto,and host.

                        currently I don't have any sorghums that are likely to overwinter for you
                        there in Sask. ... The land Institute is working on things and between us
                        you should see something in 5-8 years. ...it eats time like candy, this
                        breeding work.

                        other than wheat oats barley and proso millet which are basically 100% self
                        pollenated, the other grains have varying degrees of crossing occur that are
                        at significant levels - up to 100% (rye).

                        ...hope that helps you think things thru
                        Tim
                        psr@...


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "tiakd 14477" <sentree@...>
                        To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 6:56 AM
                        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] perennial wheat


                        > Tim, I am located in Saskatchewan, a zone2b-3a area with short hot summers
                        > and long cold winters.
                        > Thanks for letting me know about the pollenation bit, though now that I
                        > think about it, maybe the wheats are not cross pollenating, just getting
                        > into the fields. Wheat is coming up in fields that were treated with
                        > Round-Up (not mine!) which should have killed them. They believe it is due
                        > to birds, vehicles, strong winds, etc that are carrying the Round-Up Ready
                        > wheat into other people's fields where it is then growing with the normal
                        > wheat the next year. Then the seeds get mixed in with normal wheat and you
                        > lose your pure seeds. But if it is different than the annual - in looks
                        etc
                        > - it would be easy to see the annual wheat in with your own.
                        > Are other grains also self-pollinated? I wonder why my books say to watch
                        > for cross-pollenation in grains.
                        > Do you mean the grain sorghum? I have been reading about it, though nobody
                        > grows it here.
                        > Thanks
                        > Heather
                        >
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                      • Tim Peters
                        Hi Robert. Agrotriticum is a generic term referring to and covering most wheat - wheatgrass derivatives that retain considerable wheatgrass chromosone makeup.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 6, 2003
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                          Hi Robert.
                          Agrotriticum is a generic term referring to and covering most wheat -
                          wheatgrass derivatives that retain considerable wheatgrass chromosone
                          makeup. There are many agrotriticums, most are not perennial, and the ones
                          that are are often only weakly so.

                          ..I know all about helpful people that help first and maybe ask later... it
                          can be devastating, I know.

                          Spacing can definitely influence the perenniality, the tendency to
                          regenerate. Closer spacings often experience a quicker die-out of the
                          planting. ... In the breeding plots I tend to plant the plants anywhere from
                          6" to 18" apart. By the 2nd year the 18" is filled in by the better
                          selections. If you are short of seed I recommend starting the seed in beds
                          and transplanting 30-60 days later to the desired final spacing.

                          hope that helps
                          Tim
                          psr@...
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Robert Waldrop" <rmwj@...>
                          To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 8:43 AM
                          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] perennial wheat


                          > I grew agrotriticum this last year, which is described as a perennial
                          > wheat, is this what you have or is it different? Unfortunately, a
                          > "helpful" friend came by when I wasn't here and decided to "help" by
                          > cleaning up a bed or two, and the one he started with was the
                          > agrotriticum, when I got home he had uprooted all of the plants. I
                          > had harvested the grain and the stubble was left and he assumed it was
                          > trash or something I guess. I have been thinking about making a sign
                          > for my garden, "Please do not pull anything up without consulting with
                          > the gardener first."
                          >
                          > Oh well, I think i have some coming up here and there from seed that
                          > fell.
                          >
                          > Anyway, the agrotriticum looks just like wheat, the straw however
                          > seems much tougher than regular wheat.
                          >
                          > What spacing do you plant your perennial wheat?
                          >
                          > Robert Waldrop, OKc
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Tim Peters <psr@...>
                          > >"Threshability" is a major area of effort in my work. Right now all
                          > per.
                          > >wheats that are available are more difficult to thresh than annuals.
                          > They
                          > >are basically intermediate to the wild grasses as for that trait.
                          > >
                          > >try google as a search engine to hunt for per. grains. Go to
                          > >psr@... for the only available seed, that I am aware of.
                          > I
                          > >don't think you will find any elsewhere.
                          > >
                          > >as far as grain for your chickens I would suggest trying perennial
                          > sorghum
                          > >instead of wheat, or per. rye grain. the birds do better on that than
                          > on
                          > >wheats (unless they are soft wheats).
                          > >
                          > >hope this helps you,
                          > >Tim
                          > >psr@...
                          > >Oregon USA
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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