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Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Pests, Weeds And Terrorists: Weaving Harmony Through Diversity

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  • jbmc@attglobal.net
    ... * * * * * * * I am afraid that Vandana Shiva s diagnosis relative to the root-cause of the vast variety of social disharmonies is highly
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2003
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      > Vandana Shiva writes:
      >
      > "Lack of harmony characterizes our times -- There is disharmony
      > between
      > humans and nature, between religions, between cultures, between
      > genders. Non-sustainability, injustice, war are different expressions
      > of disharmony which has its roots in a world view that blocks out
      > relationships and essentialises characteristics and properties that
      > are relational properties"

      and continues:

      > ""The violence and disharmony in our world today that threatens both
      > the
      > ecological and social web of life is arising from the destruction of
      > diversity - and diversity is being destroyed because the dominant
      > worldview based on "monocultures of the mind" sees diversity as a
      > threat, and its eradication as the pre-condition for peace and
      > security. However, the destruction of diversity creates disharmony
      > and
      > instead of creating peace and security, it deepens violence,
      > discordance and insecurity".

      * * * * * * *

      I am afraid that Vandana Shiva's diagnosis relative to
      the root-cause of the vast variety of "social" disharmonies
      is highly questionable. "World views" and "distruction of di-
      versity" are simply symptoms, not causes. All "social" phe-
      nomena are reflexes of "individual" ones. All disharmonies
      we detect on the screen of Society are projections of our
      individual disharmonies which are born and reside in the
      physio-neurology of our Organisms.

      But, of course, to look into ourselves, to witness the
      ongoing wars which take place in our flesh and blood, to
      acknowledge our individual contribution to the problemati-
      que of Society, is a very unpleasant proposition, potentially
      leading to further disturbing realizations.

      And so, we much prefer criticizing, theorizing and
      philosophying on Society, Whose other factual name is
      "the others, all the others... except me".

      jb
      Mirabile-caruso.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Catherine Dionisi
      I agree with you, Mirabile, on the fact that our neuro-physiologies are the root causes. What remedies do you suggest ? I personnaly suggest natural feeding
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2003
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        I agree with you, Mirabile, on the fact that our neuro-physiologies are
        the root causes.
        What remedies do you suggest ?

        I personnaly suggest natural feeding (as much raw vegan as possible),
        natural healing (fasting plus natural feeding, unless we need a surgeon
        in case of a crash), and natural farming (I guess you know what I
        mean), natural learning (such as learning how to read at the same age as
        we learn how to understand oral language, just by immersion into written
        language, and by nothing else : it always works, unless you start
        compelling your child to give you proofs that it is working), natural
        raising of the youngs (such as not compelling them to sleep alone, in
        their own bed, in their own room... have you ever seen a wild young
        mammal being put apart to sleep ? Wouldn't it be dangerous, lacking of
        warmth and physical stimulations ? The best way to create an aggressive
        child is to seperate him from his mother as early as possible) among
        others.

        What about you ?

        Have a happy new year !
        Catherine Dionisi

        -----Message d'origine-----
        De : jbmc@... [mailto:jbmc@...]
        Envoy� : mercredi 1 janvier 2003 12:45
        � : fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Objet : Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Pests, Weeds And Terrorists: Weaving
        Harmony Through Diversity


        > Vandana Shiva writes:
        >
        > "Lack of harmony characterizes our times -- There is disharmony
        > between
        > humans and nature, between religions, between cultures, between
        > genders. Non-sustainability, injustice, war are different expressions
        > of disharmony which has its roots in a world view that blocks out
        > relationships and essentialises characteristics and properties that
        > are relational properties"

        and continues:

        > ""The violence and disharmony in our world today that threatens both
        > the
        > ecological and social web of life is arising from the destruction of
        > diversity - and diversity is being destroyed because the dominant
        > worldview based on "monocultures of the mind" sees diversity as a
        > threat, and its eradication as the pre-condition for peace and
        > security. However, the destruction of diversity creates disharmony
        > and
        > instead of creating peace and security, it deepens violence,
        > discordance and insecurity".

        * * * * * * *

        I am afraid that Vandana Shiva's diagnosis relative to
        the root-cause of the vast variety of "social" disharmonies
        is highly questionable. "World views" and "distruction of di-
        versity" are simply symptoms, not causes. All "social" phe-
        nomena are reflexes of "individual" ones. All disharmonies
        we detect on the screen of Society are projections of our
        individual disharmonies which are born and reside in the
        physio-neurology of our Organisms.

        But, of course, to look into ourselves, to witness the
        ongoing wars which take place in our flesh and blood, to
        acknowledge our individual contribution to the problemati-
        que of Society, is a very unpleasant proposition, potentially
        leading to further disturbing realizations.

        And so, we much prefer criticizing, theorizing and
        philosophying on Society, Whose other factual name is
        "the others, all the others... except me".

        jb
        Mirabile-caruso.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • donald davidson
        Hello all, I haven t posted on this listserv before, though I have been reading most of the message threads. It is fascinating to see how discussions of
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 1, 2003
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          Hello all,
          I haven't posted on this listserv before, though I
          have been reading most of the message threads. It is
          fascinating to see how discussions of natural farming
          mutate into more political matters. This is to me a
          natural extension of Fukuoka's theories of farming and
          nature.
          As to the causes of global disharmony, I am very
          hesitant to place the blame on us individuals. To put
          it simply, society is more than the sum of its parts.
          Our species has created large hierarchical structures
          (corporations, NGO's, churches, etc.) through which
          the necessities of life are (miserably for many or not
          at all) procured. The progression of technology
          reinforces this power and erases any memory that
          things do not have to be this way.
          I think suggesting different forms of life is both
          desirable and necessary. The thoughts on education in
          the last post are very good. But there is a very
          important reason that most of us live so unsustainably
          and self-destructively: there's no choice. One works
          for an hourly wage, buys food shipped from California
          or Guatemala into a concrete behemoth, lives in a
          house with no light, not to speak of south facing
          windows. Not because we want to but because global
          capitalism is the only game in town.
          But we know there is another world and that
          Fukuoka has come as close to anyone else to seeing the
          way there. Unfortunately that path is guarded by all
          the weapons and lies that are bringing global war.


          in love,
          donald
          Tennessee



          --- Catherine Dionisi <catherine.dionisi@...>
          wrote:
          > I agree with you, Mirabile, on the fact that our
          > neuro-physiologies are
          > the root causes.
          > What remedies do you suggest ?
          >
          > I personnaly suggest natural feeding (as much raw
          > vegan as possible),
          > natural healing (fasting plus natural feeding,
          > unless we need a surgeon
          > in case of a crash), and natural farming (I guess
          > you know what I
          > mean), natural learning (such as learning how to
          > read at the same age as
          > we learn how to understand oral language, just by
          > immersion into written
          > language, and by nothing else : it always works,
          > unless you start
          > compelling your child to give you proofs that it is
          > working), natural
          > raising of the youngs (such as not compelling them
          > to sleep alone, in
          > their own bed, in their own room... have you ever
          > seen a wild young
          > mammal being put apart to sleep ? Wouldn't it be
          > dangerous, lacking of
          > warmth and physical stimulations ? The best way to
          > create an aggressive
          > child is to seperate him from his mother as early as
          > possible) among
          > others.
          >
          > What about you ?
          >
          > Have a happy new year !
          > Catherine Dionisi
          >
          > -----Message d'origine-----
          > De : jbmc@... [mailto:jbmc@...]
          > Envoy� : mercredi 1 janvier 2003 12:45
          > � : fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          > Objet : Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Pests, Weeds And
          > Terrorists: Weaving
          > Harmony Through Diversity
          >
          >
          > > Vandana Shiva writes:
          > >
          > > "Lack of harmony characterizes our times -- There
          > is disharmony
          > > between
          > > humans and nature, between religions, between
          > cultures, between
          > > genders. Non-sustainability, injustice, war are
          > different expressions
          > > of disharmony which has its roots in a world view
          > that blocks out
          > > relationships and essentialises characteristics
          > and properties that
          > > are relational properties"
          >
          > and continues:
          >
          > > ""The violence and disharmony in our world today
          > that threatens both
          > > the
          > > ecological and social web of life is arising from
          > the destruction of
          > > diversity - and diversity is being destroyed
          > because the dominant
          > > worldview based on "monocultures of the mind" sees
          > diversity as a
          > > threat, and its eradication as the pre-condition
          > for peace and
          > > security. However, the destruction of diversity
          > creates disharmony
          > > and
          > > instead of creating peace and security, it deepens
          > violence,
          > > discordance and insecurity".
          >
          > * * * *
          > * * *
          >
          > I am afraid that Vandana Shiva's
          > diagnosis relative to
          > the root-cause of the vast variety of "social"
          > disharmonies
          > is highly questionable. "World views" and
          > "distruction of di-
          > versity" are simply symptoms, not causes. All
          > "social" phe-
          > nomena are reflexes of "individual" ones. All
          > disharmonies
          > we detect on the screen of Society are
          > projections of our
          > individual disharmonies which are born and reside
          > in the
          > physio-neurology of our Organisms.
          >
          > But, of course, to look into
          > ourselves, to witness the
          > ongoing wars which take place in our flesh and
          > blood, to
          > acknowledge our individual contribution to the
          > problemati-
          > que of Society, is a very unpleasant proposition,
          > potentially
          > leading to further disturbing realizations.
          >
          > And so, we much prefer criticizing,
          > theorizing and
          > philosophying on Society, Whose other factual
          > name is
          > "the others, all the others... except me".
          >
          >
          > jb
          > Mirabile-caruso.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >
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          >
          >
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          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          > Terms of Service
          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >


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        • Gloria Baikauskas
          But you see.........that is what draws us to Fukuoka. We are seeking something we know is better. We look around us and are dissatisfied. And........if we
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 1, 2003
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            But you see.........that is what draws us to Fukuoka. We are seeking something we know is better. We look around us and are dissatisfied. And........if we were not seeing in Fukuoka what looked better.........looked right........felt right.....we would go to something else.

            You can be cynical in Tennessee.........or you can be optimistic because of the people on this list from around the world. As long as there are people seeking to improve.....and in the case of this list to educate as many others as we can....there is reason for optimism. Over and over, as you yourself pointed out, we are seeing example after example of projects all over that are changing things....however slowly. And.........no government can stop that completely.

            It is an individual's choice to live in a certain place to earn a certain income in a concrete bunker, as you called them, that faces away from the sun. If an individual wishes to give up a better way to live in order to have two luxury cars in their garage.......and a speedboat for the weekends.......to live like that.......it is their choice. No government has forced them to do so.

            Here in Texas I have read that people now are willing to drive 3 hours or more each way to work to live in the country. I am sure it is happening elsewhere. There is hope........as long as people care to try to make the world a better place. Politics will not contain it.

            Gloria




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • donald davidson
            I did not intend to present cynicism. I don t regard that emotion in any positive way. It seems one of the biggest hindrances to real social change in the
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 1, 2003
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              I did not intend to present cynicism. I don't regard
              that emotion in any positive way. It seems one of the
              biggest hindrances to real social change in the
              United States.
              What I was saying is that there are problems with
              locating the world's problems within the vices and
              weaknesses of individuals. This denies that
              individuals are created in society. For instance, we
              might say that Americans are materialistic. But we
              also have to add that this superficiality exists at
              least in part because we live in a world saturated
              with propaganda.
              Perhaps you interpret as cynicism my fear of the
              controlling power system. I admit I am not overly
              optimistic about the path of our species. Multitudes
              of people turning to natural farming would give me
              hope. As you indicate, this would take lots of
              learning and teaching. But to me there are bigger
              obstacles, one of which is the legitimacy of absentee
              ownership. Another is the advance of biotechnology.
              I do not believe that most people have any real
              choice in the form of life that is dealt to them.
              Perhaps this is less true the further up the economic
              ladder one climbs, as your reference to speedboats
              points out.
              As to this list, I am very excited to read the
              threads of so many vibrant minds in so many countries.
              Problems are global and so are solutions. I am amazed
              to see others as excited by ladino clover and
              calendula as me.

              tennessee



              --- Gloria Baikauskas <gcb49@...> wrote:
              >
              > But you see.........that is what draws us to
              > Fukuoka. We are seeking something we know is
              > better. We look around us and are dissatisfied.
              > And........if we were not seeing in Fukuoka what
              > looked better.........looked right........felt
              > right.....we would go to something else.
              >
              > You can be cynical in Tennessee.........or you can
              > be optimistic because of the people on this list
              > from around the world. As long as there are people
              > seeking to improve.....and in the case of this list
              > to educate as many others as we can....there is
              > reason for optimism. Over and over, as you
              > yourself pointed out, we are seeing example after
              > example of projects all over that are changing
              > things....however slowly. And.........no government
              > can stop that completely.
              >
              > It is an individual's choice to live in a certain
              > place to earn a certain income in a concrete bunker,
              > as you called them, that faces away from the sun.
              > If an individual wishes to give up a better way to
              > live in order to have two luxury cars in their
              > garage.......and a speedboat for the
              > weekends.......to live like that.......it is their
              > choice. No government has forced them to do so.
              >
              > Here in Texas I have read that people now are
              > willing to drive 3 hours or more each way to work to
              > live in the country. I am sure it is happening
              > elsewhere. There is hope........as long as people
              > care to try to make the world a better place.
              > Politics will not contain it.
              >
              > Gloria
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >


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            • Gloria Baikauskas
              The world has always been full of propaganda. It may always be. It is how leaders make a populace behave in a manner to achieve their goals. Yet the world
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 1, 2003
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                The world has always been full of propaganda. It may always be. It is how leaders make a populace behave in a manner to achieve their goals. Yet the world advanced anyway because of folks like you who recognize it for what it is.

                It has been pointed out here quite often recently that ancient farming practices did much harm to the land. They didn't really want to do that. It was their ignorance that did it. My point here is that in this world today more people are more educated which gives them the interest to seek more........to find out why things don't work.......or why they don't work as it is perceived they should. Fukuoka has pointed out that by trying to do "more" modern science....and agronomists....are doing more damage. Simplicity is sometimes very difficult to accept. Even in this forum we would often most likely make Mr. Fukuoka shake his head. We now have this built-in behaviour to make things better by making them more complicated. I relate to this every time I see a discussion about compost piles.....how to make compost. I tried that. I discovered on my own that I had better results by sheet composting........for more reasons than one might think. In sheet composting one is not only feeding the soil as it breaks down. One is also feeding the wildlife that could benefit from say......the kitchen scraps. One is also helping the birds by spreading crushed eggshells that they need for calcium. In this way one is acting more like Nature because these same critters' manure becomes a part of the ecosystem improving it once again. And........they will most likely be spreading seeds as they go. It is a much better plan than making a compost pile and lining it with say...chicken wire........to prevent wildlife from getting into it. People today seem to like the complications of compost piles more than the simplicity of sheet composting. Yet.....often people abandon composting because it is too much work.

                It is the same in life. Folks complain about the traffic, the stress, etc, of living in cities, but they do it anyway. They do it because they figure they want this and that...and they can't have it living more simply. They know ahead of time if they choose to be a lawyer that they will make more money in a big city. They want to make more money because they want more things. Things make a life more complicated......right? It is kind of like the comedian, George Carlin's monolog when he discusses our need to have "things," so we build a building to put our things in.......and then we have to build a bigger place to put our things in....and it never ends.

                Well....I am rambling on and on here.........Sorry folks.

                Gloria




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jbmc@attglobal.net
                ... * * * * * * * In a nutshell, Ms. Dionisi, i simply suggest that we trace our steps back into the Garden, that is, out of Civilization. For the
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 2, 2003
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                  Ms.Catherine Dionisi wrote:

                  > I agree with you, Mirabile, on the fact that our neuro-physiologies are
                  > the root causes.
                  > What remedies do you suggest ?

                  * * * * * * *

                  In a nutshell, Ms. Dionisi, i simply suggest that we
                  trace
                  our steps back "into" the Garden, that is, "out" of Civilization. For the
                  Garden and Civilization are incompatible, that is, mutually exclusive.

                  Civilization is, de facto, the House of our physio-neuro-

                  logical and psycological dysfunctions, all produced and sustained,
                  focally, by our dietetic perversion.

                  Unquestionably, natural gardening - not "natural
                  farming"
                  which constitutes an absurdity in terms - is, particularly when practi-
                  ced at the congenial latitude, the most ideal "inactivity" through which
                  we can journey back to our Garden. To be understood, however,
                  that it will leave us exactly where we are, that is, lost in the middle of

                  the nowhere of Civilization, as long as we do not seriously address,
                  and bring to solution, our dietetic issue.

                  No functional Society will ever be produced by dysfunc-

                  tional individuals. Nor functional individuals will ever be produced
                  by dysfunctional physio-neurologies. The pristime, harmonious
                  functionality of our Beings inesorably lies in the strict adherence to
                  the dietary Nature meant for us.

                  > Have a happy new year !
                  > Catherine Dionisi.

                  The same to You, Ms. Dionisi! And to all Members
                  of this Forun as well.

                  jb
                  Mirabile-caruso.
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