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building soil fertility without chemical fertililizers

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  • jamie
    Hello Everyone, here s a link to a discussion that couldn t be more appropriate to this list entitled Discussions about the possibility of building soil
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 31, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello Everyone, here's a link to a discussion that couldn't be more
      appropriate to this list entitled 'Discussions about the possibility of
      building soil fertility without chemical fertililizers (inorganic NPK)'.
      It's from the Mulch-L list at Cornell Uni
      (http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/ml/npkorganic.html)

      I've subscribed to the discussion and will post anything of interest to the
      group that may come up in the future, or, if you prefer, you can subscribe
      yourselves at http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/cclists.html

      The discussion is kicked off by the common 'I have found several experts who
      tell me that there is NO WAY to build soil fertility without a sack of NPK'
      and then goes through several who disagree and several who agree (including
      institutional Phd's). However, it is at the end that it gets interesting,
      especially after recent discussion on this list of Roland Bunch as his is
      the last posting on the page. After strongly backing the claim for organic
      techniques to build fertility he makes this strange claim "... I am NOT an
      organic farming advocate..." However, whatever he likes to call himself he
      makes some telling points drawn from his long experience.

      But don't forget to check out the penultimate post for some very interesting
      and revealing conjectures as to mechanisms of soil self fertility!

      Just to wish everyone a happy new year and to express my hope that this list
      continues to go from strength to strength and would just wish to personally
      thank Larry for his tremendous work in establishing the Fukuoka website and
      Emilia for sharing her considerable knowledge built up over almost forty
      years.


      Jamie
      Souscayrous
    • Robert Monie
      Hi Jamie and All, Happy New Year! Thanks for the tip on the Cornell discussion.  Their M.O.I.S.T. group grew directly out of their MULCH group. Maybe it isn t
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 1, 2003
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        Hi Jamie and All,

        Happy New Year! Thanks for the tip on the Cornell
        discussion.� Their M.O.I.S.T. group grew directly out
        of their MULCH group.

        Maybe it isn't so strange that Roland Bunch says he
        isn't an organic farmer.� We often make the same
        statement about ourselves.� Don't we go to great pains
        to say that we (Fukuoka style agriculturalists) do not
        double dig or make compost in some bin�away from the
        plants�and then�haul the compost back to the plants
        and dig it under the top soil?�We are no-till farmers,
        not traditional organic growers.� We don't use the
        bone meal, blood, bat guano fertlizer or foliar sprays
        to the extent that they do in a regular, seasonal
        repetitive pattern to keep up the soil's fertility. We
        try to increase the mulch layer's fertility by
        returning plant matter to it. Ours (and maybe Bunch's)
        really is a distinctly different approach, though both
        are "organic" in the generic sense.

        Bunch may also�be�referring to the mountains of
        paper work that seem now necessary for farmers in some
        countries to be officially certified "organic."�He may
        want to avoid the hassle by not calling himself
        organic.��Here in Louisiana (and�the nearby state
        of�Mississippi) there are some fine, productive
        independent farmers who grow organically (no
        pesticides, no artificial fertlizer) but just will not
        fill out all the forms that the�official agencies want
        to qualify as "organic."

        Leland brought up a good point when he said
        that�MOIST, ECHO and other mulch/green
        manure�researchers have not been working�in the Middle
        East.� A large part of the Middle East is dry, rocky,
        or outright desert--a long way from the tropics. Other
        organizations such as NATIVE SEARCH (concerned mainly
        with native American seeds) would probably be better
        sources for dryland farming.� In the popular mind,
        "desert" is synonomous with "nothing growing," and
        "tropic" is synonymous with "too much stuff growing;
        let's pull out the machete�and cut it down."�I wonder
        if some of these biased characterizations�carry over
        into organizations that fund research.

        A corrective view of what deserts actually support in
        their often varied ecospheres is Ben Kotzen's ongoing
        study of the Negev Desert. On google.com search
        engine,
        see "Negev Desert Botanical Garden" for a detailed
        presentation of Kotzen's work.
        Some other good infromation sources for arid
        farming specialists include the following:

        International Crops Research Institute for the
        Semi-Arid Tropics
        Patancheru P.O.
        Andhra Pradesh 502 324
        India
        telex: 0152-203 or 0155-6366
        <P>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        ICARDA (The International Center for Agricultural
        Research in the Dry Areas)
        <P>A.B. Damania
        <P>P.O. Box 5466
        <P>Aleppo, Syria
        <P>They work in "North Africa and West Asia with
        wheat, barley, chickpeas, lentils, pasture legumes,"
        and have a large gene bank of dry area crops.
        <P>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The Henry Doubleday Research "Drought Defeaters"
        Project
        Dr. Phil Harris
        Hdra, Ryton-On-Dunsmore
        <P>Coventry CV8 31G
        UK
        <P>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        The Jacob Blaustein Institute for Desert Research
        Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
        P.O. Box 1025
        Beer-Sheva 84110
        Israel

        The Blaustein Institute studies "desert ecology;
        ...the application of ancient agricultural methods
        developed for desert farming;...sociology in desert
        communities; nomad settlement; and desert
        architecture."
        <P>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        ENTRE NOUS
        The Newletter (in French) of the West Afican regional
        center of the International Exchange Network of Rodale
        Institute.
        The purpose of this French language newsletter is to
        share discoveries made ...in dry lands agriculture
        with other groups in semi arid areas."
        VorZSek
        Entre Nous
        B.P. A237
        ThiZs, Senegal
        <P>---------------------------------------------------

        Bob Monie, in non-arid South Louisiana. Water, water
        everywhere, and plenty to drink too. Happy New Year!



        <P>�
        <P>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        <P>�<B><I>jamie <jamie@...></I></B> wrote:
        <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
        5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT>Hello
        Everyone, here's a link to a discussion that couldn't
        be more<BR>appropriate to this list entitled
        'Discussions about the possibility of<BR>building soil
        fertility without chemical fertililizers (inorganic
        NPK)'.<BR>It's from the Mulch-L list at Cornell
        Uni<BR>(<A
        href="http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/ml/npkorganic.html)">http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/ml/npkorganic.html)</A><BR><BR>I've
        subscribed to the discussion and will post anything of
        interest to the<BR>group that may come up in the
        future, or, if you prefer, you can
        subscribe<BR>yourselves at <A
        href="http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/cclists.html">http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/cclists.html</A><BR><BR>The
        discussion is kicked off by the common 'I have found
        several experts who<BR>tell me that there is NO WAY to
        build soil fertility without a sack of NPK'<BR>and
        then goes through several who disagree and several who
        agree (including<BR>institutional Phd's). However, it
        is at the end that it gets interesting,<BR>especially
        after recent discussion on this list of Roland Bunch
        as his is<BR>the last posting on the page. After
        strongly backing the claim for organic<BR>techniques
        to build fertility he makes this strange claim "... I
        am NOT an<BR>organic farming advocate..." However,
        whatever he likes to call himself he<BR>makes some
        telling points drawn from his long
        experience.<BR><BR>But don't forget to check out the
        penultimate post for some very interesting<BR>and
        revealing conjectures as to mechanisms of soil self
        fertility!<BR><BR>Just to wish everyone a happy new
        year and to express my hope that this
        list<BR>continues to go from strength to strength and
        would just wish to personally<BR>thank Larry for his
        tremendous work in establishing the Fukuoka website
        and<BR>Emilia for sharing her considerable knowledge
        built up over almost
        forty<BR>years.<BR><BR><BR>Jamie<BR>Souscayrous<BR><BR><BR></TT><BR><!--
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      • Mark Thomas Nickum
        I have a couple copies of the Permaculture Drylands Journal. Interesting strategies for irrigation and dryland farming. The only website I found on them
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 2, 2003
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          I have a couple copies of the Permaculture Drylands Journal. Interesting
          strategies for irrigation and dryland farming. The only website I found
          on them isn't very informative, mostly a contact site for ordering the
          journal or back issues. Worth looking into if you are interested.

          http://www.permaculture.net/PDI%20Web/pubjournal.html

          -Mark Nickum

          On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, Robert Monie wrote:

          > Hi Jamie and All,
          >
          > Happy New Year! Thanks for the tip on the Cornell
          > discussion.  Their M.O.I.S.T. group grew directly out
          > of their MULCH group.
          >
          > Maybe it isn't so strange that Roland Bunch says he
          > isn't an organic farmer.  We often make the same
          > statement about ourselves.  Don't we go to great pains
          > to say that we (Fukuoka style agriculturalists) do not
          > double dig or make compost in some bin away from the
          > plants and then haul the compost back to the plants
          > and dig it under the top soil? We are no-till farmers,
          > not traditional organic growers.  We don't use the
          > bone meal, blood, bat guano fertlizer or foliar sprays
          > to the extent that they do in a regular, seasonal
          > repetitive pattern to keep up the soil's fertility. We
          > try to increase the mulch layer's fertility by
          > returning plant matter to it. Ours (and maybe Bunch's)
          > really is a distinctly different approach, though both
          > are "organic" in the generic sense.
          >
          > Bunch may also be referring to the mountains of
          > paper work that seem now necessary for farmers in some
          > countries to be officially certified "organic." He may
          > want to avoid the hassle by not calling himself
          > organic.  Here in Louisiana (and the nearby state
          > of Mississippi) there are some fine, productive
          > independent farmers who grow organically (no
          > pesticides, no artificial fertlizer) but just will not
          > fill out all the forms that the official agencies want
          > to qualify as "organic."
          >
          > Leland brought up a good point when he said
          > that MOIST, ECHO and other mulch/green
          > manure researchers have not been working in the Middle
          > East.  A large part of the Middle East is dry, rocky,
          > or outright desert--a long way from the tropics. Other
          > organizations such as NATIVE SEARCH (concerned mainly
          > with native American seeds) would probably be better
          > sources for dryland farming.  In the popular mind,
          > "desert" is synonomous with "nothing growing," and
          > "tropic" is synonymous with "too much stuff growing;
          > let's pull out the machete and cut it down." I wonder
          > if some of these biased characterizations carry over
          > into organizations that fund research.
          >
          > A corrective view of what deserts actually support in
          > their often varied ecospheres is Ben Kotzen's ongoing
          > study of the Negev Desert. On google.com search
          > engine,
          > see "Negev Desert Botanical Garden" for a detailed
          > presentation of Kotzen's work.
          > Some other good infromation sources for arid
          > farming specialists include the following:
          >
          > International Crops Research Institute for the
          > Semi-Arid Tropics
          > Patancheru P.O.
          > Andhra Pradesh 502 324
          > India
          > telex: 0152-203 or 0155-6366
          > <P>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > ICARDA (The International Center for Agricultural
          > Research in the Dry Areas)
          > <P>A.B. Damania
          > <P>P.O. Box 5466
          > <P>Aleppo, Syria
          > <P>They work in "North Africa and West Asia with
          > wheat, barley, chickpeas, lentils, pasture legumes,"
          > and have a large gene bank of dry area crops.
          > <P>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > The Henry Doubleday Research "Drought Defeaters"
          > Project
          > Dr. Phil Harris
          > Hdra, Ryton-On-Dunsmore
          > <P>Coventry CV8 31G
          > UK
          > <P>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > The Jacob Blaustein Institute for Desert Research
          > Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
          > P.O. Box 1025
          > Beer-Sheva 84110
          > Israel
          >
          > The Blaustein Institute studies "desert ecology;
          > ...the application of ancient agricultural methods
          > developed for desert farming;...sociology in desert
          > communities; nomad settlement; and desert
          > architecture."
          > <P>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > ENTRE NOUS
          > The Newletter (in French) of the West Afican regional
          > center of the International Exchange Network of Rodale
          > Institute.
          > The purpose of this French language newsletter is to
          > share discoveries made ...in dry lands agriculture
          > with other groups in semi arid areas."
          > VorZSek
          > Entre Nous
          > B.P. A237
          > ThiZs, Senegal
          > <P>---------------------------------------------------
          >
          > Bob Monie, in non-arid South Louisiana. Water, water
          > everywhere, and plenty to drink too. Happy New Year!
          >
          >
          >
          > <P>
          > <P>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > <P> <B><I>jamie <jamie@...></I></B> wrote:
          > <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
          > 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT>Hello
          > Everyone, here's a link to a discussion that couldn't
          > be more<BR>appropriate to this list entitled
          > 'Discussions about the possibility of<BR>building soil
          > fertility without chemical fertililizers (inorganic
          > NPK)'.<BR>It's from the Mulch-L list at Cornell
          > Uni<BR>(<A
          > href="http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/ml/npkorganic.html)">http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/ml/npkorganic.html)</A><BR><BR>I've
          > subscribed to the discussion and will post anything of
          > interest to the<BR>group that may come up in the
          > future, or, if you prefer, you can
          > subscribe<BR>yourselves at <A
          > href="http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/cclists.html">http://mulch.mannlib.cornell.edu/cclists.html</A><BR><BR>The
          > discussion is kicked off by the common 'I have found
          > several experts who<BR>tell me that there is NO WAY to
          > build soil fertility without a sack of NPK'<BR>and
          > then goes through several who disagree and several who
          > agree (including<BR>institutional Phd's). However, it
          > is at the end that it gets interesting,<BR>especially
          > after recent discussion on this list of Roland Bunch
          > as his is<BR>the last posting on the page. After
          > strongly backing the claim for organic<BR>techniques
          > to build fertility he makes this strange claim "... I
          > am NOT an<BR>organic farming advocate..." However,
          > whatever he likes to call himself he<BR>makes some
          > telling points drawn from his long
          > experience.<BR><BR>But don't forget to check out the
          > penultimate post for some very interesting<BR>and
          > revealing conjectures as to mechanisms of soil self
          > fertility!<BR><BR>Just to wish everyone a happy new
          > year and to express my hope that this
          > list<BR>continues to go from strength to strength and
          > would just wish to personally<BR>thank Larry for his
          > tremendous work in establishing the Fukuoka website
          > and<BR>Emilia for sharing her considerable knowledge
          > built up over almost
          > forty<BR>years.<BR><BR><BR>Jamie<BR>Souscayrous<BR><BR><BR></TT><BR><!--
          > |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
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