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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Lemieux

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  • emilia
    about BRF/RCW try to get the book Another kind of Garden by Jean Pain. he recomends to grind the brush, branches , etc. when they are still full of fresh
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 10, 2001
      about BRF/RCW try to get the book "Another kind of Garden" by Jean Pain. he
      recomends to grind the brush, branches , etc. when they are still full of
      fresh sap...& for mediterranean, dry climat situation, to soak the material
      on water previous chopping...he was having great results with vegetables,
      like tomatoes on composting/mulch soiless ground...
      In Belgium there is one association carrying on his work. don't have their
      e' adress.






      ----- Message d'origine -----
      De : "Robert Monie" <bobm20001@...>
      À : <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      Envoyé : lundi 10 décembre 2001 00:01
      Objet : Re: [fukuoka_farming] Lemieux


      >
      > Correction: The website I gave for Dr. Ingham doesn't work. Try instead
      > www.soilfoodweb.com or any of several entries for Ingham on the
      www.google.com search engine.
      >
      > Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
      > REPLY:
      > All types of plant life, including inedible flowers, shrubs, trees and the
      forests they are native to, are necessary for the continued fertility of the
      Earth.
      > Since Fukuoka's scientific training was in entomology, some of his
      earliest insights must have been to note that a variegated plant population
      is the basis for biological control of plant pests and balanced insect
      populations. Like avocado grower Vallins, Fukuoka would perceive that the
      "shambles" of native herbs and shrubs, weeds, and wild vegetables growing
      together provide a "healthy chaos of diversity" that discourages pests and
      attracte the predators that consume them. When I first started growing
      vegetables (bok choy, yo choy, brocolli, kale, tomatoes, sweet peppers,
      romaine lettuce) in containers, I cared nothing for the other plants
      (especially those not "fit" for human consumption). Nature quickly
      delivered the message that for such a snub, I would get not food but the
      lacework and latticework of plants chopped to pieces by insects. Only when I
      allowed a crazy-quilt carpet of Louisiana-adapted plants to grow around my
      containers (plants such as christmas fern, cast-iron pl
      > ant, Texas sage, perilla, four o'clocks, lemon balm, mock strawberry,
      southern shield fern, oregano, Louisiana palmetto, blue ginger, coral berry,
      impatients sultana, self-heal, spiderwort, nasturtium and about 15 others
      including crimson clover) did my "insect problem" subside. Now I usually
      get by with nothing more than a little hot pepper and garlic spray on the
      rare occassions where I see the onset of an insect attack. The next step is
      for me to allow some of the vegetable seeds to grow "wild" on the magic
      insect-eating carpet and see what happens. But I still want to keep some of
      my compost-fed containers so I can compare the the differences between
      veggies grown in them and veggies grown in the more natural state.
      > Science often analyzes what it is paid to analyze and ignores everything
      else. This does not mean that science will forever remain hostile or
      indifferent to natural farming. The December 2001 issue of Environment
      magazine reports (p. 5 and 6) under the headline "Plow Less, Grow More" that
      multi-pass plowing "exposes the soil to the air. which oxidizes the soil and
      roots. Over time, nutrients and moisture in the soil are depleted,
      increasing the need for water through irrigation." In contrast, scientists
      associated with a research group called "Future Harvest" are testing single
      passes over the field in which a planter or seed drill "places seeds and
      fertlizer into the rice straw left standing from the previous harvest.
      Because the leftover straw remains anchored in the soil, the roots provide
      channels for wheat roots to grow, a habitat for beneficial insects, and, as
      it decomposes, a natural fertilizer of organic matter for the wheat crop."
      The article goes on to say that this "low
      > -till" method is "catching on like wildfire among farmers." Ok, it is not
      necessary to say that the research scientists have got some things right
      here and some very wrong; but at least they are not averse to considering
      methods that move a little closer to natural farming.
      > A plant microbiologist who is doing useful research on the mycorrhizal
      partnership between fungi and roots is Elaine Ingham. Her website is
      http://www.soilfoodweb.com/products/fungal/resources.html.
      > souscayrous <souscayrous@...> wrote: Question: if Fukuoka
      disparages science, what does it mean when we remember
      > he was trained as a scientist?
      >
      > I preface this email with this question because it has been hanging
      > unresolved in my head as I go about deciding on what course of action to
      > take on our small piece of land; because it can't help but have
      significance
      > for much of what I read outside the books of Fukuoka. Lemieux's work, the
      > work of a scientist, sharpens this question.
      >
      > Briefly: Lemieux believes through his work on BRF (deciduous wood
      chips
      > used as mulch), that the basic biological processes responsible for soil
      > fertility and productivity have been developed within forests, so;
      >
      >
      > So, if forests are destroyed, soil fertility and productivity could
      > eventually disappear. And if chemicals, as fertilizers, are used in large
      > amount, the soil structure can be badly damaged and mineral deficiencies
      as
      > well as parasites and diseases could eventually increase. According to
      > Lemieux, throughout the world where hardwood forests have been cleared to
      > make way for agriculture, the soils have deteriorated. One efficient way
      of
      > restoring some of the original fertility and productivity of these soils
      is
      > to incorporate RCW (Ramial Chipped Wood, i.e. BRF in English), to help
      > maintain biological processes in the soil, the nutrient cycling and the
      soil
      > structure.
      > (from the Agroforestry Today article on the BRF website posted by Rex)
      >
      >
      > I take Lemieux to mean that soil fertility rests, ultimately, on the
      > existence of at least some breakdown products of wood (including leaves?):
      > if wood is not available then eventually the soil will become exhausted.
      > Does anybody have experience of this one way or another?
      >
      >
      > Souscayrous
      >
      > Emilia: We have the SEL booklet but have not yet joined. We have a
      contact
      > in Lezignan and with luck we'll be in Limoux on Sunday.
      >
      >
      >
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    • Rex Teague
      Souscayrous and all ... Perhaps I ll blunder in here! Decades of observation and testing that led to his confidence in Natural Farming suggests Fukuoka s
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 11, 2001
        Souscayrous and all

        On 9 Dec 01, you wrote:

        > Question: if Fukuoka disparages science, what does it mean when we
        > remember he was trained as a scientist?

        Perhaps I'll blunder in here! Decades of observation and testing that
        led to his confidence in "Natural Farming" suggests Fukuoka's training
        in the scientific _method_ has not deserted him. What the Road to
        Damascus experience in his mid-twenties revealed was the
        "insufficiency of human knowledge" (first section "The One-Straw
        Revolution") something not even scientists are immune too!

        Swedenborg was a highly respected scientist of his time who's later
        writings as a seer reflect his background methodology. The stuff I've
        read is scientifically pedantic and incredibly dry, note however it was
        translated into english from his original latin.

        > I preface this email with this question because it has been hanging
        > unresolved in my head as I go about deciding on what course of action
        > to take on our small piece of land; because it can't help but have
        > significance for much of what I read outside the books of Fukuoka.
        > Lemieux's work, the work of a scientist, sharpens this question.

        Lemieux's scope and integrity impresses me. Considering that the
        research he directs and reports on is filtered through a scientific
        paradigm slanted at the forestry sector, he readily acknowledges
        people such as Jean Pain http://www.jean-pain.com

        A snippet from the introduction to the paper titled "Fundamentals of
        Forest Ecosystems Pedogenetics: An Approach to Metastability
        through Tellurian Biology" bears on your question:

        "The following rationales and conclusions must be seen and assessed
        in the context of our twenty year 'adventure'. Continual scepticism
        and frequent resistance towards our research made funding virtually
        impossible at every level: the forest sector would direct us to the
        agricultural sector and vice versa. On the other hand, this allowed us
        greater freedom in our experimentation and now freedom of speech.

        It further allowed us to evaluate the degradation of scientific thinking
        in the biological field, particularly the forestry and agricultural sectors.
        It quickly became apparent that the quest for data had supplanted
        the quest for ideas: science in conflict with technique ruled by
        technology.

        Numerous other discoveries were surprising as well, such as the
        origin and definition of the terminology, which stand in the way of
        basic knowledge development."

        ---8<---

        > I take Lemieux to mean that soil fertility rests, ultimately, on the
        > existence of at least some breakdown products of wood (including
        > leaves?): if wood is not available then eventually the soil will
        > become exhausted. Does anybody have experience of this one way or
        > another?

        A second-hand anecdote. The east coast of New Zealand's North
        Island has been largely denuded of it original forest and is prone to
        slippage. Poplars are used to control the erosion, the stock can still
        graze between. Some twenty years ago a cyclone and torrential rain
        devastated the area, one farmer had the pasture totally stripped out
        of a paddock that had recently been planted with Poplar poles. At a
        lost he shut the gate and left the Poplars standing in the clay base
        and now two decades later there is six inches of topsoil in that
        paddock again.

        Cheers... Rex
      • souscayrous
        Because my interest has been to start up an orchard I have been aware of Fukuoka s advice from The Natural Way of Farming when clearing the land for the
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 11, 2001
          Because my interest has been to start up an orchard I have been aware of
          Fukuoka's advice from 'The Natural Way of Farming' when clearing the land
          for the orchard;

          ...the large trunks, branches and leaves of the felled trees are arranged or
          buried in trenches running along hill contours, covered with earth, and
          allowed to decompose naturally. None of the vegetation cut down in the
          orchard should be carried away. (from p139 Bookventure edition)

          Perhaps it is because Lemieux's work echoes this good advice that I find all
          he says so persuasive, and he does indeed say a lot.
          Emilia mentioned the success of Jean Pain here in France using somewhat
          similar techniques to Lemieux, though at www.jean-pain.com, I got the
          impression chippers were the order of the day, the bigger the better. Is
          his book readily available in France, Emilia, and does his technique include
          only composting the chipped wood? The reason I ask this question is that
          Lemieux, in acknowledging Jean Pain, makes it clear that his composting
          technique will lose roughly half of the material's benefit;


          ... la fermentation thermophile, principalement à base de bactéries et
          d'actinomycètes, provoque une perte d'énergie importante par la dégradation
          des sucres, polysaccharides de toutes sortes et plus encore des nombreuses
          protéines et acides aminés présents dans la partie des arbres et arbustes où
          se fait la
          photosynthèse et où s'élaborent les produits les plus complexes du
          métabolisme. Il faut ici reconnaître des pertes de l'ordre de 50% et plus
          lors de la fermentation.

          ...roughly translated...

          ...the heat generating fermentation (of Jean Pain's process) is based mainly
          on bacterial and actinomycetic (a type of fungus) activity, which creates an
          important energy loss through the degradation of the sugars, polysaccharides
          of all kinds and more still of the many proteins and amino acids present in
          the branches of trees and brush where the most complex products of a plants
          metabolism are created through photosynthesis. It is necessary to recognise
          losses of 50% or more during this fermentation.


          I am no Biochemist, but what I take Lemieux to be saying is only if another
          fungus, basidiomycetes (white rot) is present, will the lignin be broken
          down into humus (humic acid) and thus build the soil. The thick veins of
          white rot I was so impressed with the other day are none other than
          basidiomycetes, one of the diverse subsoil flora and fauna that live
          interdependently with the trees that send down to this unseen ecosystem
          70-80% of their resources. It is because the chipped branch wood recreates
          this ecosystem that it is so effective at renovating depleted soil.
          Lemieux's own words again to conclude the distinction between his ideas and
          the technique of Jean Pain;

          Ramial wood that is invaded by basidiomycetes can replace all biological
          functions requiring chemical or biochemical nutrients.
          However, the dominant presence of bacteria capable of depolymerizing lignin
          will not have the same positive effects.


          The reason for Lemieux's belief in branch wood is simple, it creates the
          soil structure of the best agricultural land worldwide, in other words, the
          land that has been cleared of climax hardwood forests. In this way it can be
          seen that BRF/RCW is a step back toward nature, a return to a system that
          has evolved across countless years to provide just the environment for the
          greatest fertility of greatest number of plants. I'd like to finish with a
          quote from Lemieux that echoes Fukuoka in tone and in frustration at the
          short-sighted conceptions of scientific farming:


          For ages, the tendency has been to manipulate genetic capital in order to
          correct biological deficiencies and increase productivity. Although these
          new biotechnologies seem to provide infinite possibilities and results, it
          cannot be stressed enough that the current genetic system and metastability
          took millions of years to build. We should therefore be looking only to
          correct mishaps without challenging the logic of established balances.



          Souscayrous



          -----Original Message-----
          From: emilia [mailto:emhaz@...]
          Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 11:14 PM
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Lemieux

          about BRF/RCW try to get the book "Another kind of Garden" by Jean Pain. he
          recomends to grind the brush, branches , etc. when they are still full of
          fresh sap...& for mediterranean, dry climat situation, to soak the material
          on water previous chopping...he was having great results with vegetables,
          like tomatoes on composting/mulch soiless ground...
          In Belgium there is one association carrying on his work. don't have their
          e' adress.
        • GLORIA BAIKAUSKAS
          Is it not true that we are all really researchers in our own right? I say this because whichever technique or gardening principles we espouse or use in our
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 11, 2001
            Is it not true that we are all really researchers in our own right? I say this because whichever technique or gardening principles we espouse or use in our efforts the end results will vary with each part of the world we live in and all the variables present. From our mistakes we learn......and from those things that we must alter from Fukuoka, or Lemieux, etc, we go forward as long as we keep to the basic ideas of natural gardening. This is a new frontier if you will here. Perhaps it is actually an old frontier that we have long ago forgotten. Man seems not to be able to leave alone that which works in an effort to always improve it. Now some of us see that we must go back to the Natural ways.

            Gloria


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • redbudburt
            I agree with Gloria s staement that we are all researching this technique of natural farming, together and seperately. Each one of us lives in a different
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 12, 2001
              I agree with Gloria's staement that we are all researching this
              technique of natural farming, together and seperately. Each one of us
              lives in a different part of the world, with different climatic
              conditions,soils, and even cultural differences. However we are
              working together through this web site to try to help each other
              suceed with natural farming. By doing this we are helping to further
              develop this technique to suceed worldwide. Fukuoka developed this
              enlightened way of farming and living. However he can only do so much
              in one lifetime. Luckily some of his seeds of inspiration took root
              with us and others like us. We all can help develop and spread this
              inspiration around the world if we keep at it.--- In
              fukuoka_farming@y..., "GLORIA BAIKAUSKAS" <gcb49@f...> wrote:
              > Is it not true that we are all really researchers in our own
              right? I say this because whichever technique or gardening
              principles we espouse or use in our efforts the end results will vary
              with each part of the world we live in and all the variables
              present. From our mistakes we learn......and from those things that
              we must alter from Fukuoka, or Lemieux, etc, we go forward as long as
              we keep to the basic ideas of natural gardening. This is a new
              frontier if you will here. Perhaps it is actually an old frontier
              that we have long ago forgotten. Man seems not to be able to leave
              alone that which works in an effort to always improve it. Now some
              of us see that we must go back to the Natural ways.
              >
              > Gloria
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • souscayrous
              I agree to the sentiments of Gloria and redbudburt and also hope this forum will provide a natural farming resource for any who are interested now and in the
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 12, 2001
                I agree to the sentiments of Gloria and redbudburt and also hope
                this forum will provide a 'natural farming' resource for any who are
                interested now and in the future (via the archives)through our own
                backyards, gardens, allotments and farms and our experiences there,
                good and bad, that we offer freely to each other. Everyone can
                contribute something, everyone: the qualification here is not how
                many books you have read, nor the size of your 'acre', but how well
                you attend to nature.
                I can offer little as yet but my observations of the old fields
                and their different stages of having returned to the natural wild
                state here, the 'garrigue'. My aim this winter is to find the right
                orientation from which to begin, which means becoming clearer about
                what I want to do, which means becoming clearer about what the land
                will support, which means..etc
                Instead of a cover crop I think I will begin with laying down
                Lemieux's ramial wood (branches, twigs and leaves), it is a resource
                freely available all over my site and an enriching technique proven
                already beneath the holm oaks where there is a 6-10" rich, dark,
                damp, well structured soil.
                In case I did not make myself clear in my last post, Lemieux is
                saying that all fertile soils, without exception, are based upon
                the 'white rot' breakdown of hardwood tree lignin. Although he first
                observed this in Canada he has since repeated his observations in
                countries (and climates) as diverse as Senegal, Dominica, France, and
                the former Soviet Union. So wherever you find yourselves in the world
                BRF/RCW will improve your soil (just in case like me when I first
                visited his website and thought it was only in French, take heart,
                there are a number of English translations there that provide more
                than enough information on his ideas and how we can apply them
                ourselves; http://www.sbf.ulaval.ca/brf.

                Except for the few, often unobtainable books by Fukuoka there is
                little other work available on natural farming, therefore: *we are
                the new resource*

                Souscayrous...from a frosty, supposedly mediterranean, France.


                --- In fukuoka_farming@y..., "redbudburt" <redbudburt@y...> wrote:
                > I agree with Gloria's staement that we are all researching this
                > technique of natural farming, together and seperately. Each one of
                us
                > lives in a different part of the world, with different climatic
                > conditions,soils, and even cultural differences. However we are
                > working together through this web site to try to help each other
                > suceed with natural farming. By doing this we are helping to
                further
                > develop this technique to suceed worldwide. Fukuoka developed this
                > enlightened way of farming and living. However he can only do so
                much
                > in one lifetime. Luckily some of his seeds of inspiration took root
                > with us and others like us. We all can help develop and spread this
                > inspiration around the world if we keep at it.--- In
                > fukuoka_farming@y..., "GLORIA BAIKAUSKAS" <gcb49@f...> wrote:
                > > Is it not true that we are all really researchers in our own
                > right? I say this because whichever technique or gardening
                > principles we espouse or use in our efforts the end results will
                vary
                > with each part of the world we live in and all the variables
                > present. From our mistakes we learn......and from those things
                that
                > we must alter from Fukuoka, or Lemieux, etc, we go forward as long
                as
                > we keep to the basic ideas of natural gardening. This is a new
                > frontier if you will here. Perhaps it is actually an old frontier
                > that we have long ago forgotten. Man seems not to be able to leave
                > alone that which works in an effort to always improve it. Now some
                > of us see that we must go back to the Natural ways.
                > >
                > > Gloria
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • GLORIA BAIKAUSKAS
                Souscayrous wrote: Except for the few, often unobtainable books by Fukuoka there is little other work available on natural farming, therefore: *we are the new
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 12, 2001
                  Souscayrous wrote:
                  Except for the few, often unobtainable books by Fukuoka there is
                  little other work available on natural farming, therefore: *we are
                  the new resource*

                  I believe that is probably the most important statement you made. You put it all so eloquently, though.

                  It would indeed help if there was a reprinting of even one of Fukuoka's books. But, perhaps it will be someone else who having been a student of his who will write a definitive book for those who realize that more natural techniques are the way of the future.

                  The no till way of farming is becoming more popular despite what I have read online. I know from listening to radio shows and other readings that the US government is recommending no till as the way to farm.....but not requiring it as yet.

                  I know that when I go to the feedstore locally the farmers are beginning to ask about other ways to go with their farming. The owner of the feedstore once so closed-minded.....and elderly I will admit having farmed and ranched himself for many years......has now added nonchemical products to what he sells in his store. He even recommended a new natural cat litter to me a couple of months ago. There is hope.

                  We are the pioneers, however nameless we remain. It is our examples that will be followed,not our words I would hope. I am happy to answer questions when people stop at my place here in the country to ask why I didn't have a problem with the voracious grasshoppers and such the last couple of years. In the beginning I did, but the more naturally I began to plant, the less problems I had. So,see, the example will eventually catch on. I think there is much less maintenance this way, too, which will appeal greatly to those for whom the now traditional gardening is too difficult. And that is another angle that makes this method much more attractive I would think also.

                  Think of the ad compaigns! No more weeding! Plant clover (insert here whichever kind is most relevant for the area), and never weed again. No more digging and hoeing! No more plowing straight lines of crops and flowers! Just toss out seedballs easily made in the comfort of one's own chair!

                  See how appealing it could be made to sound? The big companies for whom this would be a blow would, of course, fight the principles as they probably already are.

                  I was informed on a radio show over the weekend about a test the chemical companies in the US are backing the government is planning to do that will see how much in the way of chemicals the human body can tolerate and survive. Can you imagine what those human test subjects will go through? The long-lasting effects of the chemicals are impossible to fathom.

                  Natural farming requires no chemicals to overcome. With good marketing......and good grass root support.....it should catch the eye of many people.

                  It will only live on with us and those who write their own books with their own methods.

                  Happy Holidays to you all!

                  Gloria




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • emilia
                  Fukuoka s work refutes the 1st law of conventional agronomical law:.:. .it must be put back to the soil the fertility that the crop took... with his climatic
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 12, 2001
                    Fukuoka's work refutes the 1st law of conventional agronomical law:.:.".it
                    must be put back to the soil the fertility that the crop took..." with his
                    climatic conditions he could experiment on soil's self-fertility without too
                    many limiting factors.. the principles of natural agriculture are universal
                    but what adaptations must be done to overcome difficult conditions for which
                    we don't have yet a model of know-how :are to be found, This agriculture is
                    the microbiologists revolution one...& we are its living research!
                    What i'm understanding about soil as a whole organism ,is that it has a very
                    intimate relationship with roots...that ,at the litter horizon, mulching,is
                    like we are putting back the litter where it should be & with lignine
                    droppings from trees..O.K..giving to the soil all the conditions to be, to
                    live as its deep nature needs..but, apart of whatever is to be put on top,
                    soil needs within the rhyzosphere the plants that their roots will exhude
                    the nutrients needed by the thrillions of the foodweb organisms.
                    Soil needs roots as plants need sun...
                    Elaine Ingham indicates that lignine digesting organisms develops soils
                    mycelium dominated , conditions beneficial for growing berry vines,
                    strawberries, fruit trees...but vegetable plants need soils loaded with
                    bacteria instead,so again, straw will be a goog mulch/precursor for
                    friendly bacteria proliferation.

                    My adaptations for growing vegetables in dry & cold climat makes look my
                    gardens very different that what Fukuoka has in his subtropical island.
                    Orderly raised mulched beds with permanent drip irrigation & arcs over
                    .them...but the soil within lives its wild life & arranged as such insures
                    having food in surfaces small enough that can be artificially irrigated &
                    easily harvested..








                    ----- Message d'origine -----
                    De : "GLORIA BAIKAUSKAS" <gcb49@...>
                    À : <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                    Envoyé : mercredi 12 décembre 2001 02:23
                    Objet : Re: [fukuoka_farming] Lemieux


                    > Is it not true that we are all really researchers in our own right? I say
                    this because whichever technique or gardening principles we espouse or use
                    in our efforts the end results will vary with each part of the world we live
                    in and all the variables present. From our mistakes we learn......and from
                    those things that we must alter from Fukuoka, or Lemieux, etc, we go forward
                    as long as we keep to the basic ideas of natural gardening. This is a new
                    frontier if you will here. Perhaps it is actually an old frontier that we
                    have long ago forgotten. Man seems not to be able to leave alone that which
                    works in an effort to always improve it. Now some of us see that we must go
                    back to the Natural ways.
                    >
                    > Gloria
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • redbudburt
                    -I believe that one of the most attractive aspects of Natural farming is the far less amount of work, time and overhead involved. It makes more sense to
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 12, 2001
                      -I believe that one of the most attractive aspects of Natural farming
                      is the far less amount of work, time and overhead involved. It makes
                      more sense to someone farming their land in this way because they
                      don't have to become a slave to their own farm. Also with far less
                      overhead, the natural farmer can sell their produce for far less than
                      a chemical farmer, or an organic farmer. The economics of it I
                      believe is how it can be spread. As an example. If you show a person
                      a chemically grown tomato, and an organically grown tomato, and you
                      say that this organic tomato is 10 times better for you and the earth
                      and only costs twice as much as this chemical tomato. 90% of the
                      average people are going to buy the cheaper chemical tomato. However
                      if you say the same thing about a naturally farmed tomato and can
                      sell it for 25% less .Then 100% of the people will buy the natural
                      tomato.People are generally pursuaded by economics first. If you
                      could talk people that are organic farmers into switching to natural
                      farming then you could change the whole organic industry. I think
                      that organic farmers would be open minded to natural farming. I think
                      that Chemical farmers are to close minded and brain washed to
                      convince. So change the organic farm industry to natural farming and
                      bring down the price of food. That way you don't have to talk anyone
                      into it.
                      - In fukuoka_farming@y..., "GLORIA BAIKAUSKAS" <gcb49@f...> wrote:
                      > Souscayrous wrote:
                      > Except for the few, often unobtainable books by Fukuoka there is
                      > little other work available on natural farming, therefore: *we are
                      > the new resource*
                      >
                      > I believe that is probably the most important statement you made.
                      You put it all so eloquently, though.
                      >
                      > It would indeed help if there was a reprinting of even one of
                      Fukuoka's books. But, perhaps it will be someone else who having
                      been a student of his who will write a definitive book for those who
                      realize that more natural techniques are the way of the future.
                      >
                      > The no till way of farming is becoming more popular despite what I
                      have read online. I know from listening to radio shows and other
                      readings that the US government is recommending no till as the way to
                      farm.....but not requiring it as yet.
                      >
                      > I know that when I go to the feedstore locally the farmers are
                      beginning to ask about other ways to go with their farming. The
                      owner of the feedstore once so closed-minded.....and elderly I will
                      admit having farmed and ranched himself for many years......has now
                      added nonchemical products to what he sells in his store. He even
                      recommended a new natural cat litter to me a couple of months ago.
                      There is hope.
                      >
                      > We are the pioneers, however nameless we remain. It is our
                      examples that will be followed,not our words I would hope. I am
                      happy to answer questions when people stop at my place here in the
                      country to ask why I didn't have a problem with the voracious
                      grasshoppers and such the last couple of years. In the beginning I
                      did, but the more naturally I began to plant, the less problems I
                      had. So,see, the example will eventually catch on. I think there is
                      much less maintenance this way, too, which will appeal greatly to
                      those for whom the now traditional gardening is too difficult. And
                      that is another angle that makes this method much more attractive I
                      would think also.
                      >
                      > Think of the ad compaigns! No more weeding! Plant clover (insert
                      here whichever kind is most relevant for the area), and never weed
                      again. No more digging and hoeing! No more plowing straight lines
                      of crops and flowers! Just toss out seedballs easily made in the
                      comfort of one's own chair!
                      >
                      > See how appealing it could be made to sound? The big companies for
                      whom this would be a blow would, of course, fight the principles as
                      they probably already are.
                      >
                      > I was informed on a radio show over the weekend about a test the
                      chemical companies in the US are backing the government is planning
                      to do that will see how much in the way of chemicals the human body
                      can tolerate and survive. Can you imagine what those human test
                      subjects will go through? The long-lasting effects of the chemicals
                      are impossible to fathom.
                      >
                      > Natural farming requires no chemicals to overcome. With good
                      marketing......and good grass root support.....it should catch the
                      eye of many people.
                      >
                      > It will only live on with us and those who write their own books
                      with their own methods.
                      >
                      > Happy Holidays to you all!
                      >
                      > Gloria
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • GLORIA BAIKAUSKAS
                      Really good points! Money is where you get most people. And for farmers who have been losing their farms the last 30 years because of all the economic
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 12, 2001
                        Really good points! Money is where you get most people. And for farmers who have been losing their farms the last 30 years because of all the economic problems it would make so much more sense......and save their farms.

                        Gloria


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • kjetjo
                        Hi! Anyone mind if I take up this thread? As mentioned in the message below, there is obvious advantages to natural ways of feedin the world, from a
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
                          Hi!

                          Anyone mind if I take up this thread?
                          As mentioned in the message below, there is obvious advantages to
                          natural ways of feedin' the world, from a market-perspective. It
                          frustrates me though, to see this knowledge just fade in some kind of
                          information overload.
                          What worries me, is that proven ways of increasing yields do not get
                          out to the public. In my parts of the world, Norway, the extremely
                          conservative approach to organic agriculture is showing itself in
                          piles of projects, government subsidies, papers, debates and on and
                          on. This happens while some involved in more "radical" approaches as
                          natural farming and biodynamical agriculture are producing double
                          yields and hanging around in their hammocks double the time of
                          conventional farmers.
                          How do I get to learn about this? By reading articles in more or less
                          underground publications and on online forums like these(very
                          interesting ones even :). Why isn't this out where people and farmers
                          can learn about this?
                          I have recently noticed that even working enviromentalists are
                          beginning to give in to agrobusiness propaganda and taking the
                          arguments that heavy-duty chemical/GM-agriculture is the only way to
                          feed the world. The consequenses to this being taken lightly can be
                          horrible. Modern agriculture will have no way out. Norway has a ban
                          on GM-foods, but regulations are slackening every day because there
                          is more and more coming in via feeds and other sources of
                          contamination.
                          My appeal to those who can speak and be listened to: please take the
                          capitalist-market-bull by its horns and prove them wrong! It's
                          beginning to get kinda urgent!
                          I know that making this a marketing thing may be against some
                          principles, but one has to be pragmatic when it comes to facing a
                          locomotive as the agrobusiness is.

                          Anyways, this may just a little peace of blabber from a worried young
                          man, but I hope some of you are sharing my concerns.

                          Greetings and best hopes for the future.
                          Kjetil

                          --- In fukuoka_farming@y..., "redbudburt" <redbudburt@y...> wrote:
                          > -I believe that one of the most attractive aspects of Natural
                          farming
                          > is the far less amount of work, time and overhead involved. It
                          makes
                          > more sense to someone farming their land in this way because they
                          > don't have to become a slave to their own farm. Also with far less
                          > overhead, the natural farmer can sell their produce for far less
                          than
                          > a chemical farmer, or an organic farmer. The economics of it I
                          > believe is how it can be spread. As an example. If you show a
                          person
                          > a chemically grown tomato, and an organically grown tomato, and you
                          > say that this organic tomato is 10 times better for you and the
                          earth
                          > and only costs twice as much as this chemical tomato. 90% of the
                          > average people are going to buy the cheaper chemical tomato.
                          However
                          > if you say the same thing about a naturally farmed tomato and can
                          > sell it for 25% less .Then 100% of the people will buy the natural
                          > tomato.People are generally pursuaded by economics first. If you
                          > could talk people that are organic farmers into switching to
                          natural
                          > farming then you could change the whole organic industry. I think
                          > that organic farmers would be open minded to natural farming. I
                          think
                          > that Chemical farmers are to close minded and brain washed to
                          > convince. So change the organic farm industry to natural farming
                          and
                          > bring down the price of food. That way you don't have to talk
                          anyone
                          > into it.
                          > - In fukuoka_farming@y..., "GLORIA BAIKAUSKAS" <gcb49@f...> wrote:
                          > > Souscayrous wrote:
                          > > Except for the few, often unobtainable books by Fukuoka there is
                          > > little other work available on natural farming, therefore: *we
                          are
                          > > the new resource*
                          > >
                          > > I believe that is probably the most important statement you
                          made.
                          > You put it all so eloquently, though.
                          > >
                          > > It would indeed help if there was a reprinting of even one of
                          > Fukuoka's books. But, perhaps it will be someone else who having
                          > been a student of his who will write a definitive book for those
                          who
                          > realize that more natural techniques are the way of the future.
                          > >
                          > > The no till way of farming is becoming more popular despite what
                          I
                          > have read online. I know from listening to radio shows and other
                          > readings that the US government is recommending no till as the way
                          to
                          > farm.....but not requiring it as yet.
                          > >
                          > > I know that when I go to the feedstore locally the farmers are
                          > beginning to ask about other ways to go with their farming. The
                          > owner of the feedstore once so closed-minded.....and elderly I will
                          > admit having farmed and ranched himself for many years......has now
                          > added nonchemical products to what he sells in his store. He even
                          > recommended a new natural cat litter to me a couple of months ago.
                          > There is hope.
                          > >
                          > > We are the pioneers, however nameless we remain. It is our
                          > examples that will be followed,not our words I would hope. I am
                          > happy to answer questions when people stop at my place here in the
                          > country to ask why I didn't have a problem with the voracious
                          > grasshoppers and such the last couple of years. In the beginning I
                          > did, but the more naturally I began to plant, the less problems I
                          > had. So,see, the example will eventually catch on. I think there
                          is
                          > much less maintenance this way, too, which will appeal greatly to
                          > those for whom the now traditional gardening is too difficult. And
                          > that is another angle that makes this method much more attractive I
                          > would think also.
                          > >
                          > > Think of the ad compaigns! No more weeding! Plant clover
                          (insert
                          > here whichever kind is most relevant for the area), and never weed
                          > again. No more digging and hoeing! No more plowing straight lines
                          > of crops and flowers! Just toss out seedballs easily made in the
                          > comfort of one's own chair!
                          > >
                          > > See how appealing it could be made to sound? The big companies
                          for
                          > whom this would be a blow would, of course, fight the principles as
                          > they probably already are.
                          > >
                          > > I was informed on a radio show over the weekend about a test the
                          > chemical companies in the US are backing the government is planning
                          > to do that will see how much in the way of chemicals the human body
                          > can tolerate and survive. Can you imagine what those human test
                          > subjects will go through? The long-lasting effects of the
                          chemicals
                          > are impossible to fathom.
                          > >
                          > > Natural farming requires no chemicals to overcome. With good
                          > marketing......and good grass root support.....it should catch the
                          > eye of many people.
                          > >
                          > > It will only live on with us and those who write their own books
                          > with their own methods.
                          > >
                          > > Happy Holidays to you all!
                          > >
                          > > Gloria
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • GLORIA BAIKAUSKAS
                          Why are they relaxing the regulations on GMO food products like feed and such? Is there a shortage that makes it necessary? One way to buy corn products in
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 27, 2002
                            Why are they relaxing the regulations on GMO food products like feed and such? Is there a shortage that makes it necessary?

                            One way to buy corn products in the US we know are safe is to go to a European Import store and buy corn meal, or corn products there because we are under the impression they are safe. Now I am alarmed a bit by this news that perhaps they are not.

                            I do not buy corn or corn products here in the US unless I know they were imported. I fear the consequences.

                            Gloria


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • kjetjo
                            GMO production is minimal in Europe, just test-fields as far as I know (you know those Jose Bove and his pals are pulling by the roots :)). Zero in Norway. But
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 28, 2002
                              GMO production is minimal in Europe, just test-fields as far as I know
                              (you know those Jose Bove and his pals are pulling by the roots :)).
                              Zero in Norway. But grain-imports for feed from non-european
                              countries have traces of certain levels of GMO. The vicous circle is
                              that because these traces are found, the regulations of allowed
                              levels of GMO are raised to meet the level of the traces.
                              It is although very positive the EU has stated fermly it wants
                              labelling and distance-requirements. But if other regions doesn't
                              correspond it's hard.
                              I don't think you should worry about the imported corn just yet. But
                              I am very worried about the future debate. That if someone can't take
                              the arguments of "we are the only ones that can feed the world,"
                              naturally produced food will be seen as luxuries. And they are,
                              because of conservative approaches and politics the prices are very
                              high.

                              --- In fukuoka_farming@y..., "GLORIA BAIKAUSKAS" <gcb49@f...> wrote:
                              > Why are they relaxing the regulations on GMO food products like
                              feed and such? Is there a shortage that makes it necessary?
                              >
                              > One way to buy corn products in the US we know are safe is to go to
                              a European Import store and buy corn meal, or corn products there
                              because we are under the impression they are safe. Now I am alarmed
                              a bit by this news that perhaps they are not.
                              >
                              > I do not buy corn or corn products here in the US unless I know
                              they were imported. I fear the consequences.
                              >
                              > Gloria
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • b.gilboa
                              ... (you know those Jose Bove and his pals are pulling by the roots :)). Zero in Norway. But grain-imports for feed from non-european countries have traces of
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 28, 2002
                                >> GMO production is minimal in Europe, just test-fields as far as I know
                                (you know those Jose Bove and his pals are pulling by the roots :)).
                                Zero in Norway. But grain-imports for feed from non-european
                                countries have traces of certain levels of GMO. The vicous circle is
                                that because these traces are found, the regulations of allowed
                                levels of GMO are raised to meet the level of the traces.
                                It is although very positive the EU has stated fermly it wants
                                labelling and distance-requirements. But if other regions doesn't
                                correspond it's hard.


                                And according to Greenpeace, GMO corn and soy beans are still imported in EU
                                for animal foods...

                                Beatrice
                                Israel 16h
                              • emilia
                                hello kjetjo, multinationals & their lobbys run todays world...even fukuoka s yields didn t get acknowledged by his peers (or any administration), it is not
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 2, 2002
                                  hello kjetjo,
                                  multinationals & their lobbys run todays world...even fukuoka's yields
                                  didn't get acknowledged by his peers (or any administration), it is not what
                                  is of value that has a chance to be known & acknowledged, but whatever the
                                  mafias control & impose...(like nuclear energy) how to participate with a
                                  solution when those that control education, information, the media, etc. do
                                  not want any change that would endanger their profits, their income?...
                                  i'm trying at the present to set up a teaching-garden in collaboration with
                                  a place that would have the land & the possibility to host apprentices,
                                  i've contacted few places where ecology is in their "programs"...i don't
                                  even get an answer to my mail!!! ...natural agriculture displeases the
                                  "traditional organic" type of agriculture people so... it's not easy to
                                  manifest a solution even when it exists.
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "kjetjo" <kjetjo@...>
                                  To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 11:06 PM
                                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: New Natural Farming Resource!


                                  > Hi!
                                  >
                                  > Anyone mind if I take up this thread?
                                  > As mentioned in the message below, there is obvious advantages to
                                  > natural ways of feedin' the world, from a market-perspective. It
                                  > frustrates me though, to see this knowledge just fade in some kind of
                                  > information overload.
                                  > What worries me, is that proven ways of increasing yields do not get
                                  > out to the public. In my parts of the world, Norway, the extremely
                                  > conservative approach to organic agriculture is showing itself in
                                  > piles of projects, government subsidies, papers, debates and on and
                                  > on. This happens while some involved in more "radical" approaches as
                                  > natural farming and biodynamical agriculture are producing double
                                  > yields and hanging around in their hammocks double the time of
                                  > conventional farmers.
                                  > How do I get to learn about this? By reading articles in more or less
                                  > underground publications and on online forums like these(very
                                  > interesting ones even :). Why isn't this out where people and farmers
                                  > can learn about this?
                                  > I have recently noticed that even working enviromentalists are
                                  > beginning to give in to agrobusiness propaganda and taking the
                                  > arguments that heavy-duty chemical/GM-agriculture is the only way to
                                  > feed the world. The consequenses to this being taken lightly can be
                                  > horrible. Modern agriculture will have no way out. Norway has a ban
                                  > on GM-foods, but regulations are slackening every day because there
                                  > is more and more coming in via feeds and other sources of
                                  > contamination.
                                  > My appeal to those who can speak and be listened to: please take the
                                  > capitalist-market-bull by its horns and prove them wrong! It's
                                  > beginning to get kinda urgent!
                                  > I know that making this a marketing thing may be against some
                                  > principles, but one has to be pragmatic when it comes to facing a
                                  > locomotive as the agrobusiness is.
                                  >
                                  > Anyways, this may just a little peace of blabber from a worried young
                                  > man, but I hope some of you are sharing my concerns.
                                  >
                                  > Greetings and best hopes for the future.
                                  > Kjetil
                                  >
                                  > --- In fukuoka_farming@y..., "redbudburt" <redbudburt@y...> wrote:
                                  > > -I believe that one of the most attractive aspects of Natural
                                  > farming
                                  > > is the far less amount of work, time and overhead involved. It
                                  > makes
                                  > > more sense to someone farming their land in this way because they
                                  > > don't have to become a slave to their own farm. Also with far less
                                  > > overhead, the natural farmer can sell their produce for far less
                                  > than
                                  > > a chemical farmer, or an organic farmer. The economics of it I
                                  > > believe is how it can be spread. As an example. If you show a
                                  > person
                                  > > a chemically grown tomato, and an organically grown tomato, and you
                                  > > say that this organic tomato is 10 times better for you and the
                                  > earth
                                  > > and only costs twice as much as this chemical tomato. 90% of the
                                  > > average people are going to buy the cheaper chemical tomato.
                                  > However
                                  > > if you say the same thing about a naturally farmed tomato and can
                                  > > sell it for 25% less .Then 100% of the people will buy the natural
                                  > > tomato.People are generally pursuaded by economics first. If you
                                  > > could talk people that are organic farmers into switching to
                                  > natural
                                  > > farming then you could change the whole organic industry. I think
                                  > > that organic farmers would be open minded to natural farming. I
                                  > think
                                  > > that Chemical farmers are to close minded and brain washed to
                                  > > convince. So change the organic farm industry to natural farming
                                  > and
                                  > > bring down the price of food. That way you don't have to talk
                                  > anyone
                                  > > into it.
                                  > > - In fukuoka_farming@y..., "GLORIA BAIKAUSKAS" <gcb49@f...> wrote:
                                  > > > Souscayrous wrote:
                                  > > > Except for the few, often unobtainable books by Fukuoka there is
                                  > > > little other work available on natural farming, therefore: *we
                                  > are
                                  > > > the new resource*
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I believe that is probably the most important statement you
                                  > made.
                                  > > You put it all so eloquently, though.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It would indeed help if there was a reprinting of even one of
                                  > > Fukuoka's books. But, perhaps it will be someone else who having
                                  > > been a student of his who will write a definitive book for those
                                  > who
                                  > > realize that more natural techniques are the way of the future.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The no till way of farming is becoming more popular despite what
                                  > I
                                  > > have read online. I know from listening to radio shows and other
                                  > > readings that the US government is recommending no till as the way
                                  > to
                                  > > farm.....but not requiring it as yet.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I know that when I go to the feedstore locally the farmers are
                                  > > beginning to ask about other ways to go with their farming. The
                                  > > owner of the feedstore once so closed-minded.....and elderly I will
                                  > > admit having farmed and ranched himself for many years......has now
                                  > > added nonchemical products to what he sells in his store. He even
                                  > > recommended a new natural cat litter to me a couple of months ago.
                                  > > There is hope.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > We are the pioneers, however nameless we remain. It is our
                                  > > examples that will be followed,not our words I would hope. I am
                                  > > happy to answer questions when people stop at my place here in the
                                  > > country to ask why I didn't have a problem with the voracious
                                  > > grasshoppers and such the last couple of years. In the beginning I
                                  > > did, but the more naturally I began to plant, the less problems I
                                  > > had. So,see, the example will eventually catch on. I think there
                                  > is
                                  > > much less maintenance this way, too, which will appeal greatly to
                                  > > those for whom the now traditional gardening is too difficult. And
                                  > > that is another angle that makes this method much more attractive I
                                  > > would think also.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Think of the ad compaigns! No more weeding! Plant clover
                                  > (insert
                                  > > here whichever kind is most relevant for the area), and never weed
                                  > > again. No more digging and hoeing! No more plowing straight lines
                                  > > of crops and flowers! Just toss out seedballs easily made in the
                                  > > comfort of one's own chair!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > See how appealing it could be made to sound? The big companies
                                  > for
                                  > > whom this would be a blow would, of course, fight the principles as
                                  > > they probably already are.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I was informed on a radio show over the weekend about a test the
                                  > > chemical companies in the US are backing the government is planning
                                  > > to do that will see how much in the way of chemicals the human body
                                  > > can tolerate and survive. Can you imagine what those human test
                                  > > subjects will go through? The long-lasting effects of the
                                  > chemicals
                                  > > are impossible to fathom.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Natural farming requires no chemicals to overcome. With good
                                  > > marketing......and good grass root support.....it should catch the
                                  > > eye of many people.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It will only live on with us and those who write their own books
                                  > > with their own methods.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Happy Holidays to you all!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Gloria
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Sam Malcomson
                                  ... of ... get ... as ... less ... farmers ... to ... the ... young ... Bula. I am new to the group, being in only a couple of days. I have developed some
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 6, 2006
                                    --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "kjetjo" <kjetjo@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi!
                                    >
                                    > Anyone mind if I take up this thread?
                                    > As mentioned in the message below, there is obvious advantages to
                                    > natural ways of feedin' the world, from a market-perspective. It
                                    > frustrates me though, to see this knowledge just fade in some kind
                                    of
                                    > information overload.
                                    > What worries me, is that proven ways of increasing yields do not
                                    get
                                    > out to the public. In my parts of the world, Norway, the extremely
                                    > conservative approach to organic agriculture is showing itself in
                                    > piles of projects, government subsidies, papers, debates and on and
                                    > on. This happens while some involved in more "radical" approaches
                                    as
                                    > natural farming and biodynamical agriculture are producing double
                                    > yields and hanging around in their hammocks double the time of
                                    > conventional farmers.
                                    > How do I get to learn about this? By reading articles in more or
                                    less
                                    > underground publications and on online forums like these(very
                                    > interesting ones even :). Why isn't this out where people and
                                    farmers
                                    > can learn about this?
                                    > I have recently noticed that even working enviromentalists are
                                    > beginning to give in to agrobusiness propaganda and taking the
                                    > arguments that heavy-duty chemical/GM-agriculture is the only way
                                    to
                                    > feed the world. The consequenses to this being taken lightly can be
                                    > horrible. Modern agriculture will have no way out. Norway has a ban
                                    > on GM-foods, but regulations are slackening every day because there
                                    > is more and more coming in via feeds and other sources of
                                    > contamination.
                                    > My appeal to those who can speak and be listened to: please take
                                    the
                                    > capitalist-market-bull by its horns and prove them wrong! It's
                                    > beginning to get kinda urgent!
                                    > I know that making this a marketing thing may be against some
                                    > principles, but one has to be pragmatic when it comes to facing a
                                    > locomotive as the agrobusiness is.
                                    >
                                    > Anyways, this may just a little peace of blabber from a worried
                                    young
                                    > man, but I hope some of you are sharing my concerns.
                                    >
                                    > Greetings and best hopes for the future.
                                    > Kjetil

                                    Bula.
                                    I am new to the group, being in only a couple of days. I have
                                    developed some interest in non till gardening of late however gorwing
                                    out of other environmental interests and concerns of mine. I have not
                                    much to offer to this debate apart from a personal observation. My
                                    wife is interested in a small back yard vege garden so my initial
                                    trial is a no dig raised bed with no till experimentation. I am not a
                                    huge fan of veges, having a fairly selective range of likes. If
                                    however, I am going to put some sweat and toil in getting this off
                                    the ground and some ongoing work to keep it humming along, I should
                                    start to eat what I produce. That is the end goal. I have made a
                                    start in growing what I eat, localised food production. The plan
                                    realised will be me eating, and heaven forbid even liking, a wider
                                    variety of vegetables. I hate orange carrots, I may get to like white
                                    carrots. Small steps taken by many people can make a big difference.

                                    rob

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