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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Allan Savory: How to green the world's deserts and reverse climate change

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  • Daniel Camolês
    I don t know Nandan, where are these people? I m growing increasingly suspicious. I m suspecting that s it is about as labor intensive as regular organic or
    Message 1 of 112 , Mar 21, 2013
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      I don't know Nandan, where are these people? I'm growing increasingly suspicious. I'm suspecting that's it is about as labor intensive as regular organic or more. I could also take pictures of my clover patches and say that's my ground cover working, but that's just not true.

      There are a number of vegetables that can choke out grasses, it's just that they are not fit to work as living cover grasses. They will suffocate your culture as well.



      Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> escreveu:

      >Nice to know there are more people in the same boat!!
      >Even though I find it difficult to establish cover crops uniformly,
      >there are many places people have done this. Lot of videos in youtube
      >where organic no-till is practiced, they grow cover crop and it has
      >established uniformly.
      >There are some cover crops which establishes uniformly and chokes out
      >all the grass, for e.g mucuna,but controlling them later is difficult.
      >Regards,Nandan
      >
      >--- On Wed, 3/20/13, Daniel Camolês <bigatojj@...> wrote:
      >
      >From: Daniel Camolês <bigatojj@...>
      >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Allan Savory: How to green the
      >world's deserts and reverse climate change
      >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      >Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013, 5:44 AM
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      >Establishing a cover crop has been my challenge also. After
      >experimentation and observation, I'm leaning towards the conclusion
      >that there's no way that any leguminous cover crop we have here will
      >establish itself on it's own and win over the grasses.
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      >So far what I'm doing that is working is more or less conventional
      >organic method while I sow clover on every opportunity together with
      >the rest of crop seeds. I weed out by hand letting only the white
      >clover grow together with the cultures. Where it's establishing I still
      >need to actively weed out the grass all the time. The clover doesn't
      >help much in this regard, you need to watch out for the grasses
      >sprouting among it or very soon they will overcome the clover.
      >
      >
      >
      >Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> escreveu:
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      >>Thanks Ruthie for the information. Disc harrow was for a backup plan
      >if
      >
      >>no-tilling does not work out. But if it is a a huge machine, won't be
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      >>useful for me.
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      >>True, the cover crop should be perfectly established. When I put
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      >>cowpea, it didn't establish completely and I tried some more seeds
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      >>where it didn't come, so it is better now, but in some areas, I
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      >>couldn't do this. I think uprooting the tough grasses and sowing
      >clover
      >
      >>there seems to be a good idea, this is especially good for some grass
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      >>which reproduce from roots/bulbs etc.
      >
      >>All the best with your rice experiment..Fukuoka san sowed rice in May
      >
      >>and harvested in November, check it again.
      >
      >>Regards,Nandan
      >
      >>
      >
      >>--- On Tue, 3/19/13, Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...> wrote:
      >
      >>
      >
      >>From: Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...>
      >
      >>Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Allan Savory: How to green the
      >
      >>world's deserts and reverse climate change
      >
      >>To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >>Date: Tuesday, March 19, 2013, 3:27 PM
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      >> Hello Nandan,
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      >>
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      >>If you google disc harrow you'll realize how gigantic one is. You need
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      >>traction and not propulsion so it's not exactly a walk-behind
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      >>contraption.
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      >>It is used here by farmers with big tractors and it is employed to
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      >>roughly
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      >>level the field after plowing. At least that's when I see them using
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      >>it :
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      >>
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      >>after ploughing. Maybe some use it to cup up hard surface soil before
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      >>ploughing but I don't know. That must be it's primary use but since
      >in
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      >>my
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      >>parts the soil is not as clayey as in other parts then maybe they are
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      >>using
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      >>it seen that machinery is easy to acquire because the lending rate for
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      >>farmers is about 1% only and I don't know why farmers are so fast to
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      >>take
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      >>out loans...some have big tractors for small fields..maybe it's
      >keeping
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      >>up
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      >>with the Jones's or maybe its the government agriculturists pushing
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      >>them to
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      >>purchase so as to patronize tractor manufacturers. Farming is highly
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      >>subsidized here and of course that has not done good to the
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      >>environment, it
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      >>has led to generalized mechanization. Still...hmmm...farmers can't
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      >>find
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      >>wives hahaha.
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      >>At any rate, with the little I know about the harrow I think it is
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      >>absolutely incompatible with Fukuoka NF.
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      >>
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      >>I think Fukuoka showed us a model and it is up to us to adapt it to
      >our
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      >>climate and soil.
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      >>I think his message is to listen to Nature and that's it.
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      >>He said to sow clover and I think what that means is to first sow
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      >>clover
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      >>(to get rid of tough, matted grasses). That takes time and we are
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      >>tempted
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      >>to disc harrow or whatever and that is perfectly understandable in
      >this
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      >>fast-paced world. With my tiny lot I broadcast clover last year and it
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      >>came
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      >>up in patches. Then this year it is almost everywhere except in places
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      >>where tough clumps of grasses grow and so I am now uprooting those
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      >>clumps
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      >>little by little and will sow clover where they have left small, bare
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      >>patches, or maybe I should directly broadcast lettuce or something.
      >The
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      >>radish did not grow last year but this year I spotted 2 of them! Wow.
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      >>Whew.
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      >>There is a big difference between a Fukuoka paddy and a Fukuoka
      >orchard
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      >>or
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      >>vegetable patch in that a paddy is sort of a mono crop (sorry for the
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      >>term
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      >>but I can't find another word) at least that is how I am trying to
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      >>understand NF for me here in southwestern France. I can't sow wheat
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      >>because I would not know what to do with it and besides where would I
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      >>get
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      >>the grain? If I had to order it at an astronomical price then that
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      >>would
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      >>defeat my purpose. As to paddy my intention is to try some slope paddy
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      >>in
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      >>the tropics but I think I really have to think about how to do that
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      >>since
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      >>rice farming is primarily practised in level ground there.
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      >>Some time in April I'll try to plant a few grains of precious rice
      >here
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      >>
      >
      >>that a wonderful Indian person in this group generously shared with me
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      >>(thanks!), with the intention of increasing the number of seeds
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      >>available
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      >>to me. Wish me luck and if any member knows when to plant rice in a
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      >>temperate climate then please inform me. I shall be planting 6
      >grains.
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      >> If
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      >>I am not mistaken Fukuoka sowed in October before harvesting the wheat
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      >>crop
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      >>but I can't do that here with my 6 grains, rats and hawks might find
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      >>the
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      >>rice in the open and it would be such a pity.
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      >>To return to the subject, I think that if we try to do NF the Fukuoka
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      >>way,
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      >>like Rajuji, then we will be rewarded and of course we must hope to
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      >>live a
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      >>long life, too.
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      >>Cheers!
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      >>
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      >>RUTHIE
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      >>2013/3/19 Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
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      >>> **
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      >>>
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      >>>
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      >>> But I feel no-till using herbicides is more dangerous than tilling.
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      >>But it
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      >>> will be good news once the farmer is aware of the chemicals and
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      >>finally
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      >>> quit both tilling and chemicals. By the way, I don't use SRI, and
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      >>continues
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      >>> with natural farming and this time with some cowdung.
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      >>
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      >>> Faulkner in Plowman's folly suggest to use Disc harrow instead of
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      >>plow.
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      >>
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      >>> According to him Disc Harrow (not really seen one !!) incorporates
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      >>the
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      >>> organic matter into the surface so that it is available for the
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      >>plants,
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      >>> while plow puts into deeper layers.
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      >>
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      >>> Has any one has experience with disc harrow? Any small devices like
      >
      >>'walk
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      >>
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      >>> behind device' is available?
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      >>>
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      >>
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      >>> Regards,Nandan
      >
      >>
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      >>>
      >
      >>
      >
      >>> --- On Mon, 3/18/13, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
      >
      >>
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      >>>
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      >>
      >
      >>> From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
      >
      >>
      >
      >>>
      >
      >>
      >
      >>> Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Allan Savory: How to green the
      >
      >>world's
      >
      >>
      >
      >>> deserts and reverse climate change
      >
      >>
      >
      >>> To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >>
      >
      >>> Date: Monday, March 18, 2013, 9:46 PM
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      >>>
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      >>>
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      >>> Dear friends,
      >
      >>
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      >>> SRI is based on tillage and tillage causing desertification. In my
      >
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      >>> area many farmers adopted zero tillage conservative farming which is
      >
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      >>> stopping desertification. At present these farmers are not aware of
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      >>> cover crops and harmful effect of chemicals but one day they will
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      >>> realize and stop chemicals because of soil/water and biodiversity
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      >>> conservation.
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      >>
      >
      >>> Thanks
      >
      >>
      >
      >>> Raju
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      >>>
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      >>>
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      >>------------------------------------
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      >>Yahoo! Groups Links
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      >
      >--
      >
      >E-mail enviado do meu celular Android usando K-9 Mail. Por favor,
      >desculpe minha brevidade.
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      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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      --
      E-mail enviado do meu celular Android usando K-9 Mail. Por favor, desculpe minha brevidade.

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    • trenthillsmike
      Not only does it retain moisture but the mulch rots down into compost and improves fertility. I think that feeding the soil is a much better idea than feeding
      Message 112 of 112 , Jun 16, 2013
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        Not only does it retain moisture but the mulch rots down into compost and improves fertility. I think that feeding the soil is a much better idea than feeding the plants. We've been adding plants that mine minerals (lambsquarter, pigweed, yarrow, stinging nettle, red clover, Dutch white clover, etc), attract pollinators all through the growing season, attract predatory insects, confuse pests. Our preference is for perennials or self-seeding annuals and biennials. And we've stopped mowing the orchard although I do selective scything to suppress plants that we don't want. We're very early in the process but we can see some results - https://picasaweb.google.com/PortagePerennials/HolisticOrchard#5888913239729330466

        Regards,
        Mike

        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
        >
        > Adding 6 inch mulch layer around young trees to make them survive summer is an interesting thing. Planning to try this for the mango trees. Last summer was very severe and lost some of the trees. 
        >
        >
        > Regards,
        > Nandan
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