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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Allan Savory: How to green the world's deserts and reverse climate change

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  • Nandan Palaparambil
    Hi Alan, We have two monsoons - south-west monsoon wand north-east-monsoon. South west monsoon is the main rainy season and it starts in June, with some summer
    Message 1 of 112 , Mar 17, 2013
      Hi Alan,
      We have two monsoons - south-west monsoon wand north-east-monsoon. South west monsoon is the main rainy season and it starts in June, with some summer showers starting in April mid onwards. 
      Typically farmers start the rice cultivation in May (in some cases in June, if it is transplanting) when the land is reasonably wet and at this time germination will be good. Once the heavy rain starts in June, germination will be bad, but crops starts growing and weeds also will be there in plenty. First season can be completely dependent on rain water.
      2nd cycle of rice cultivation starts in september-october time frame and this is dependent on the North-east-monsoon + some external watering. 
      If I time it well, I can get a rice and a millet which is completely dependent on rain. Then probably grow cow pea as a cover crop and then leave the field to rest for peak summer. Since I don't stay on the farm, some times I miss the timings and things go out of control.

      Regards,Nandan

      --- On Sun, 3/17/13, Alan Sloan <alan851603@...> wrote:

      From: Alan Sloan <alan851603@...>
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Allan Savory: How to green the world's deserts and reverse climate change
      To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com" <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Sunday, March 17, 2013, 10:26 PM
















       









      Hi Nandan,

      There is no way we can predict the weather two weeks in advance here so sowing times are a matter of guessing, or if its warm enough then we have to make sure there's enough moisture.



      Do you have a monsoon where you and if so is that a sowing/germination time, ie is it warm enough and does it Ho on long enough for things to get going?



      Alan



      On 17 Mar 2013, at 15:50, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:



      > I felt getting the crop established in dry mulch is little tricky, when I put cowpea, had to water it once to get it established. Probably with better timing, this may can be avoided, but if you miss that window, watering is the only choice. The other difficulty which I face is with small seed crops like sesame which is so tiny and with mulch they can not come up at all.

      >

      > Along with timing and high density planning, a proper leguminous cover crop also may be needed.

      >

      > Regards,Nandan

      >

      > --- On Sun, 3/17/13, Alan Sloan <alan851603@...> wrote:

      >

      > From: Alan Sloan <alan851603@...>

      > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Allan Savory: How to green the world's deserts and reverse climate change

      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

      > Date: Sunday, March 17, 2013, 7:03 PM

      >

      > Harish,

      >

      > I don't understand the seasons in India but in Western Europe we have a

      > harvest in the Autumn and then in former times animals could be turned into

      > the fields to clear up after the harvest. Crops may have been undersown

      > for this purpose or there may be a "forage" crop grown particularly for

      > animal feed. Savory's technique would not apply here but I have heard of

      > grains being broadcast into the forage crop (Turnips, Kale etc) and the

      > hooves of the animals would squish the seed into the ground as they were

      > "folded" over the field (ie allowed to move gradually across the crop

      > consuming it thoroughly as they go).

      >

      > This doesn't have a good fit with NF practice but might be one way of

      > getting a field cleared of an unsuitable cover to start off with. My

      > attempts to get corn growing by sowing into dry mulch have not been

      > sucessful - one problem in the UK is the weather - as the soil warms up it

      > can be too dry for germination if seed is too close to the surface.

      > Bonfils (summer sowing of winter wheat) will l be difficult for the same

      > reason. i have a feeling that some of the successful report from India are

      > due to warm wet weather at sowing time.

      >

      > Jerseys are small brown cows with fantastic creamy milk, but goats are

      > smaller and have a better sense of humour!.

      >

      > Converting directly from monocrop to NF is not something I've heard of in

      > the UK , we tend to go "Organic" which isn't the same thing at all.

      > Organic produce is now certified and institutionalised and I have mixed

      > feelings about it. I still cant see how NF systems can deal with species

      > invasion in this country. I understand that there is normally is a mixed

      > population - I can see how in rice paddies one can use water to get the

      > crop ahead, but in this climate a wheat crop would need to be very dense

      > and very well timed to keep ahead of the the competition.

      >

      > All the best,

      >

      > Alan

      > .

      > On 17 March 2013 11:21, Harish Amur <harishamur@...> wrote:

      >

      > > **

      > >

      > >

      > > Yes. There are shepherds in our area. In fact, during the agricultural

      > > off-season(Feb-May) they take the herds to various agricultural fields and

      > > make them graze. It was a regular practice, I hear, about a decade ago.

      > > But in recent times, they have been discouraged by many. I would not allow

      > > them on my field, as they do not understand what we are growing. Last time,

      > > they entered our farm without our permission and the sheep ate all the

      > > naturally grown cowpea and green gram :(

      > >

      > > The 'other' cows are named jersey here in this part of India. It must be

      > > after the breed from Europe. I am not good with cows, but can identify some

      > > of the local breeds. I grew up seeing a lot of buffaloes though. They are

      > > still in plenty.

      > >

      > > It is interesting to read some of these reactions on this thread. My

      > > personal opinion is that I should know what is happening globally and try

      > > using such techniques locally if they are applicable. I am too far away

      > > from a desert, so this issue does not bother me directly. I can empathise

      > > with people who have to face such issues, but that is all that I can do.

      > > Can I solve world's problems?

      > >

      > > However there is a different kind of desert that is growing too rapidly, I

      > > feel strongly, that of a monocrop land. Is this as dangerous as a normal

      > > desert? Is it ok to have monocrops over large expanse of land? If such

      > > practices are dangerous, something needs to be done about this. However it

      > > is a tough struggle. The whole agri-industry has to change for the monocrop

      > > culture to subside OR the lands have to go barren. I guess it is easier for

      > > mother nature to hibernate for a while, than install sense in us :)

      > >

      > > Regards,

      > > Harish

      > >

      > >

      > > On 16 March 2013 20:35, Alan Sloan <alan851603@...> wrote:

      > >

      > > > ; - (

      > > >

      > > > Oh dear, apologies, I have had a sudden outbreak of curiosity:

      > > >

      > > > Is there a goat tradition in India? The Anglo Nubian is a beautiful

      > > animal

      > > > and that came from Arabia originally so it may do well in the heat. (Just

      > > > asking - don't recommend Goat to a tree lover!)

      > > >

      > > > Are "indigenous" cows being displaced by (for example) Fresians? Do you

      > > > get Industrial Farming of livestock, or is competition from the small

      > > guys

      > > > too tight?

      > > >

      > > > And what about legumes / clover/ beans etc in "traditional" agriculture?

      > > > (How long do you have go back before something becomes "traditional"?)

      > > > Did they ever they obviate or greatly lessen the reliance on animals?

      > > >

      > > > Was there a traditional agriculture before tillage which resembled

      > > Natural

      > > > Farming?

      > > >

      > > > Alan

      > > >

      > > >

      > > > On 16 March 2013 14:15, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>

      > > > wrote:

      > > >

      > > > > **

      > >

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > For vegetarians milk, curd, butter milk, ghee etc are important items

      > > in

      > > > > their food. Even though the indigenous cows produce very little milk,

      > > the

      > > > > amount of food intake is also very less and milk to food intake ratio

      > > is

      > > > > high.

      > > > > The cow dung has magic effect on the plants which is immediate. For

      > > > Indian

      > > > > farmers agriculture without cattle was not possible, but when the

      > > > chemical

      > > > > fertilisers came, the story has changed. Agriculture starts with

      > > tilling

      > > > > using cattle, so traditionally agriculture without cattle was

      > > difficult.

      > > > >

      > > > > Regards,Nandan

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > --- On Sat, 3/16/13, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:

      > > > >

      > > > > From: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>

      > > > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Allan Savory: How to green the

      > > world's

      > > > > deserts and reverse climate change

      > > > > To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.comfukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>

      > > > > Date: Saturday, March 16, 2013, 1:37 PM

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > This is what I mean by looking at any "one shop stop" kinda solution

      > > for

      > > > > anything. Here in India, village people have a policy of ax ban and

      > > > cattle

      > > > > ban in various parts of local forests in cycles which might be from 3

      > > to

      > > > 5

      > > > > years and it works very well. That is the time required for new

      > > saplings

      > > > to

      > > > > start off and become sturdy enough to withstand cattle attack. There is

      > > > off

      > > > > course the issue of why people have cattle in the first place. Indians

      > > > > don't eat beef except a very few and their cattle produce very less

      > > milk.

      > > > > There also the issue of spending time looking after them which can be

      > > > > better spent on looking after their fields. But then habit is a

      > > dangerous

      > > > > thing. Yes the cattle give dung which is used in many many ways.

      > > > >

      > > > > see? there are lots of issues to be considered.

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone

      > > > >

      > > > > Warm regards,

      > > > >

      > > > > Sumant Joshi

      > > > >

      > > > > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161

      > > > >

      > > > > >________________________________

      > > > >

      > > > > > From: Paulo Bessa <pcbessa@...>

      > > > >

      > > > > >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

      > > > >

      > > > > >Sent: Friday, 15 March 2013 6:35 PM

      > > > >

      > > > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Allan Savory: How to green the

      > > > world's

      > > > > deserts and reverse climate change

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >Here in Iceland there was originally 40% of the entire land covered

      > > with

      > > > >

      > > > > >birch and willow forest.

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >Now only 2% are forested and this is now 30 years after reforestation

      > > > >

      > > > > >efforts. The country reached a low of 0.5% forested some decades ago.

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >Basically wood was cut for fuel, in a land of a very windy and cold

      > > > >

      > > > > >climate. Sheep erased whatever new birch trees could have grown. The

      > > > only

      > > > >

      > > > > >remaining original forests are those in a few rare locations where

      > > sheep

      > > > >

      > > > > >never went.

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >So, yes, cows, sheep and goats, are not desirable if you want to

      > > recover

      > > > >

      > > > > >original forests.

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >--

      > > > >

      > > > > >Paulo Bessa

      > > > >

      > > > > >Sólheimar, 801 Selfoss, Iceland

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > > > >

      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > >

      > > >

      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > > >

      > > >

      > > >

      > > > ------------------------------------

      > > >

      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

      > >

      > > >

      > > >

      > > >

      > > >

      > >

      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > >

      > >

      > >

      >

      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      >

      > ------------------------------------

      >

      > Yahoo! Groups Links

      >

      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      >

      >



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    • trenthillsmike
      Not only does it retain moisture but the mulch rots down into compost and improves fertility. I think that feeding the soil is a much better idea than feeding
      Message 112 of 112 , Jun 16, 2013
        Not only does it retain moisture but the mulch rots down into compost and improves fertility. I think that feeding the soil is a much better idea than feeding the plants. We've been adding plants that mine minerals (lambsquarter, pigweed, yarrow, stinging nettle, red clover, Dutch white clover, etc), attract pollinators all through the growing season, attract predatory insects, confuse pests. Our preference is for perennials or self-seeding annuals and biennials. And we've stopped mowing the orchard although I do selective scything to suppress plants that we don't want. We're very early in the process but we can see some results - https://picasaweb.google.com/PortagePerennials/HolisticOrchard#5888913239729330466

        Regards,
        Mike

        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
        >
        > Adding 6 inch mulch layer around young trees to make them survive summer is an interesting thing. Planning to try this for the mango trees. Last summer was very severe and lost some of the trees. 
        >
        >
        > Regards,
        > Nandan
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