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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Digest Number 3043

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  • Ruthie Aquino
    Fukuoka said you have to observe how Nature does it, he did not say to plant rice/beans only. I am like those people described by Alan, brought up to do
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 21, 2013
      Fukuoka said you have to observe how Nature does it, he did not say to
      plant rice/beans only.
      I am like those people described by Alan, brought up to do seedbed-no weeds.
      The big conversion is in the deep understanding of how to farm and why.
      The response of my congeneres when I ask them why they plant their
      vegetables and fruit trees the conventional way is, it has always been done
      and it has always worked.
      Now tell them Nature does better than they will ever do.

      To be frank, I cannot pretend to fully understand why NF works, but then I
      console myself by saying it is okay to be ignorant.

      best
      RUTHIE




      2013/2/21 Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>

      > **
      >
      >
      > True, lot more experiments on adapting NF to different climates has to
      > take place. Let us encourage discussions on these lines, this will benefit
      > the new comers also, even though some of these topics might have discussed
      > at length earlier.
      >
      > Regards,Nandan
      >
      > --- On Thu, 2/21/13, Alan Sloan alan851603@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
      >
      > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Digest Number 3043
      > To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com" fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Thursday, February 21, 2013, 2:01 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Quite Right. The simple principle of not tilling is the only real
      > difference, it is not elaborate or complicated at all.
      >
      > However it is a big cultural step for people who were brought up in the
      > "seedbed and no weeds" paradigm to adopt a "seed ball" or "living mulch"
      > way of doing. This is what needs elaboration, for instance answering the
      > question of how germination of a midsummer surface planting of wheat will
      > take place if it doesn't rain.
      >
      > All climates and soils differ - faithfully following the Fukuoka
      > rice/beans model is simply not going to work in dry land fields - there is
      > a lot of explaining / demonstrating to do before our organic farmers
      > convert or even feel its worth trying.
      >
      > Alan
      >
      > On 20 Feb 2013, at 22:06, Ruthie Aquino ruthieaquino1@...> wrote:
      >
      > > You wrote, ' [...] there are fundamental differences between "organic"
      > and
      >
      > > NF approaches which need elaborating'.
      >
      > > What kind of elaborating are you thinking of?
      >
      > > Fukuoka described the difference between the two. It seemed clear enough
      >
      > > to me.
      >
      > > All other doubts had been dispelled by Raju Titus's posts, as well as
      >
      > > experiences shared by members.
      >
      > > When I observe how slow or erratic my farming is I do not doubt NF but
      >
      > > rather my application of it.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > 2013/2/20 Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > **
      >
      > > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > > > True, Natural Farmers would be perhaps no different in this respect to
      >
      > > > animals, but we might agree that the wholesale food producing
      > industrial
      >
      > > > scale operations are fundamentally
      >
      > > > different - when we start pumping up on that scale it becomes
      > increasingly
      >
      > > > difficult to avoid generating long term problems?
      >
      > > >
      >
      > > > I'm wondering how conditions can be changed in favour of NF and the
      > use of
      >
      > > > "organic" methods in the achievement of record crops is perhaps
      >
      > > > psychologically helpful, demonstrating that industrialism is not the
      >
      > > > universal solution. But there are fundamental differences between
      > "organic"
      >
      > > > and NF approaches which need elaborating.
      >
      > > >
      >
      > > > Alan
      >
      > > >
      >
      > > > On 19 Feb 2013, at 16:20, Sumant Joshi sumant_jo@...> wrote:
      >
      > > >
      >
      > > > > All animals have been changing the ecological landscape throughout
      >
      > > > history. Humans are no better or worse
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > > > > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > > > > Warm regards,
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > > > > Sumant Joshi
      >
      > > > > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > > > > >________________________________
      >
      > > > > > From: Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
      >
      > > > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.comfukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      >
      > > > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 1:53 PM
      >
      > > > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Digest Number 3043
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > > > > >Words mislead us, Making more room in the ecosystem for mankind is
      >
      > > > farming and involves enhancing the populations of some plants at the
      >
      > > > expense of others. NF rules out destructive techniques of doing this!
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > > > > >You meant pumping up as the use of fertilisers, I was thinking that
      >
      > > > basically all farming is pumping up the types if plant we want ....
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > > > > >Alan
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > > > > >On 19 Feb 2013, at 00:49, "Jason" macropneuma@...> wrote:
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > > > > >> Not the terms i mean, (---with consciously misconstruing my
      > words, do
      >
      > > > you want to provoke or precipitate a disagreement or a fight?---that
      > has
      >
      > > > already been won by mother nature.)
      >
      > > > > >> by definition mother (Fukuoka) nature/natural farmers do not pump
      > up
      >
      > > > their farming ways, their crops, their soils, their farm nature, with
      >
      > > > reduced artificially concentrated ways, any more than does the rest of
      >
      > > > mother nature with humans absent (wild).
      >
      > > > > >> But then there in the small British island part of the world,
      >
      > > > > >> all farmers may do so and maybe the conditioning of all people
      > there
      >
      > > > is that that is what defines their farming; the arrival of the Celts
      > and
      >
      > > > related Indo-European languages speaking peoples in Britain about 6,000
      >
      > > > years ago, i read, saw the end of nature farming and nature farming
      > peoples
      >
      > > > and of so called hunter gatherers, variously the Picts, Pictish
      > peoples and
      >
      > > > so on---a sad, finality of a story---although the Celtic peoples, i
      > read,
      >
      > > > had half versions of nature farming as well---as well as the
      > Indo-European
      >
      > > > language family defined by its unsustainable farming derived from its
      >
      > > > agricultural centre of origin and expansion, the once fertile cresent
      > and
      >
      > > > mesopotamia---i read the words that the mesopotamian culture
      > 'civilisation'
      >
      > > > at that time was agri--culturally suicidal, self-destructing some few
      >
      > > > thousand years after it started, and so from its self-destroying nest
      >
      > > > meanwhile started spreading out to gradually taking over people's
      > lands,
      >
      > > > evil
      >
      > > > > colonisation, eventually reaching Britain about 6,000 years ago (i
      > read
      >
      > > > all this in many British and European English language, widely
      > published,
      >
      > > > peer reviewed, scholarly science papers).
      >
      > > > > >> In my world it is contacts with people all over the world, in
      > Japan,
      >
      > > > Americas, Mediterranean, in the subcontinent, Pacific islands, and with
      >
      > > > Australians, Tibetans, a Mongolian family the other day, and so on that
      >
      > > > make a multi-cultural collective definition of the possibilites and
      > wider
      >
      > > > parameters of farming (--i've long ago taken note the etymology of the
      >
      > > > English language word farming).
      >
      > > > > >>
      >
      > > > > >> Say i writing here with one hand while eating grumichama tropical
      >
      > > > fruits with the other hand.
      >
      > > > > >> Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this.
      >
      > > > > >>
      >
      > > > > >> --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Alan Sloan wrote:
      >
      > > > > >> >
      >
      > > > > >> > Jason,
      >
      > > > > >> > thanks.
      >
      > > > > >> > All farmers pump up nature - that's what Farming is.
      >
      > > > > >> > The key is to discover the seed inside the pumpkin, the flesh is
      >
      > > > just a
      >
      > > > > >> > clue.
      >
      > > > > >> > Best regards,
      >
      > > > > >> > Alan
      >
      > > > > >> >
      >
      > > > > >> >
      >
      > > > > >> > On 18 February 2013 22:35, Jason Stewart wrote:
      >
      > > > > >> >
      >
      > > > > >> > > **
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > Okay,
      >
      > > > > >> > > thanks Nandan for doing the extra research.
      >
      > > > > >> > > It seems now there would not be any point in contacting them.
      >
      > > > > >> > > It is an awesome yield, but that reads as, in fact, not from
      >
      > > > nature's
      >
      > > > > >> > > powers, eg. micro-organisms.
      >
      > > > > >> > > That research source's evidence seems like its great news will
      >
      > > > not last
      >
      > > > > >> > > over future years---not so much to call it a freak occurence
      >
      > > > which the
      >
      > > > > >> > > Guardian newspaer article clarifies it is not but that it's a
      >
      > > > short term,
      >
      > > > > >> > > temporary, few years, artificially forced, 'pumped up',
      > result. A
      >
      > > > metaphor
      >
      > > > > >> > > is a balloon that may last for a few years and perish or may
      >
      > > > simply pop
      >
      > > > > >> > > with any change of nature---metaphor for words like fragile,
      >
      > > > brittle, not
      >
      > > > > >> > > solid, not resilient.
      >
      > > > > >> > > eg. pests or disease may easily run rife through randomly it
      > in
      >
      > > > any year
      >
      > > > > >> > > and then poisons may get used---remembering the infamous
      > potato
      >
      > > > failure
      >
      > > > > >> > > famine of Ireland and many more from over dependence on
      > reduced
      >
      > > > > >> > > artificially concentrated ways, changed weather events and
      > cycle
      >
      > > > may
      >
      > > > > >> > > drastically reduce the yield or simply destroy its fragile
      >
      > > > dependencies
      >
      > > > > >> > > Does not sound like any natural or nature farming---farming
      > done
      >
      > > > by
      >
      > > > > >> > > nature's powers with people as members---does not sound
      >
      > > > nutritious for me,
      >
      > > > > >> > > for my body's health and does not sound tasty to eat for me.
      >
      > > > > >> > > ---can't be too careful.
      >
      > > > > >> > > It sounds like it's a little less artificial, false and
      >
      > > > superficial than
      >
      > > > > >> > > the realm of some English language world of Australian, US and
      >
      > > > British
      >
      > > > > >> > > conventional chemical farmers getting short-lived TV, radio,
      >
      > > > newspaper,
      >
      > > > > >> > > local community fame
      >
      > > > > >> > > for growing the largest, monstrous sized, giant pumpkins---not
      >
      > > > good eating
      >
      > > > > >> > > except for cattle and perhaps in soup---using all manner of
      >
      > > > hybridised
      >
      > > > > >> > > extreme growth, varieties and extremes of fertilising and so
      >
      > > > on---freak
      >
      > > > > >> > > pumpkins.
      >
      > > > > >> > > In summary in one phrase: Not sustainable---on the research
      >
      > > > sources
      >
      > > > > >> > > evidence provided here by Alan and Nandan, thank you
      >
      > > > > >> > > ---a study learning exercise that *is helpful* to inform the
      >
      > > > awareness,
      >
      > > > > >> > > thank you.
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > Thanks Ruthie---for the back to reality, reminder. There are
      >
      > > > Fukuoka way
      >
      > > > > >> > > nature farmers in the Philippines---i just have to re--find
      > the
      >
      > > > written
      >
      > > > > >> > > sources; and in
      >
      > > > > >> > > France there's a Fukuoka nature farming research institute
      >
      > > > "Institut
      >
      > > > > >> > > Technique d'Agriculture Naturelle" (ITAN)
      >
      > > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr
      >
      > > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/litan
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/fukuoka
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > --> etc. ---there's many written articles there, to read (and
      >
      > > > perhaps
      >
      > > > > >> > > translate to English)
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > ---led by d�Olivier Barbi� and more people,
      >
      > > > > >> > > ---I was sure you had been already aware of these good
      > institute
      >
      > > > folks,
      >
      > > > > >> > > Ruthie(?).
      >
      > > > > >> > > and
      >
      > > > > >> > > some few French, on the internet, Fukuoka nature farmers---i
      > just
      >
      > > > have to
      >
      > > > > >> > > re--find all of them in their written internet sources---
      >
      > > > > >> > > and perhaps these folks are -->
      > http://marssfarm.centerblog.net/
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > Remember a majority of true nature farmers who've chosen to
      >
      > > > return fully
      >
      > > > > >> > > back to nature, along the awareness development road,
      >
      > > > > >> > > do not continue with or (in so called third world) have never
      >
      > > > used, the
      >
      > > > > >> > > internet media or even do much writing about their farming or
      > do
      >
      > > > written
      >
      > > > > >> > > media appearances. Thinking of both:
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > so called third world farmers who never left mother nature, in
      >
      > > > India,
      >
      > > > > >> > > Africa, Papua and first Australians, first Americans, so
      > called
      >
      > > > peasant
      >
      > > > > >> > > Chinese and Russians, etc., etc. and
      >
      > > > > >> > > of so called second and first world farmers returning
      > entirely to
      >
      > > > nature's
      >
      > > > > >> > > bosom.
      >
      > > > > >> > > Remember, more careful about the full compliment of mother
      > natures
      >
      > > > > >> > > farmer's as small but very valuable part of the majority of
      > *all*
      >
      > > > > >> > > 7,000,000,000 people the world (but who are not in the so
      > called
      >
      > > > modern, so
      >
      > > > > >> > > called civilised world. Please support, eg through Survival
      >
      > > > International
      >
      > > > > >> > > (UK based))
      >
      > > > > >> > > Eg. Quinoa, native potato, tomato, grain amaranth, native
      > corn, �
      >
      > > > first
      >
      > > > > >> > > American peoples (south, meso and north) native, mother
      > nature --
      >
      > > > farmers.
      >
      > > > > >> > > Indian so called peasant mother nature farmers, some peoples
      > of
      >
      > > > who have
      >
      > > > > >> > > been labelled so called tribals and been long time racially
      >
      > > > discriminated
      >
      > > > > >> > > against as if others.
      >
      > > > > >> > > Tibetan, Nepali, Bhutanese and more Himalayan mother nature
      >
      > > > farmers.
      >
      > > > > >> > > Ainu and Ryukyu, Japan, mother nature farmers.
      >
      > > > > >> > > Chinese peoples mother nature farmers who have been labelled
      > so
      >
      > > > called
      >
      > > > > >> > > peasants and other-ed ---read New Zealand and Pacific ocean
      >
      > > > region based
      >
      > > > > >> > > terraquaculture and Professor Haikai Tane writings on Chinese
      >
      > > > nature
      >
      > > > > >> > > farming.
      >
      > > > > >> > > Mongolian (some who are farmers not only herders), Russian and
      >
      > > > former USSR
      >
      > > > > >> > > states' so called peasants, mother nature
      >
      > > > > >> > > Hundreds of Pacific Islands mother nature farming, eg. Hawaii,
      >
      > > > New Zealand
      >
      > > > > >> > > Maori, Vanautu, Samoa, etc..
      >
      > > > > >> > > Papua New Guinea and West Papua mother nature farmers, many
      > many
      >
      > > > different
      >
      > > > > >> > > cultures of first peoples, who have been so called
      >
      > > > natives/Aborigines and
      >
      > > > > >> > > been treated as if others.
      >
      > > > > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, Australian,
      > mother
      >
      > > > nature
      >
      > > > > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially
      >
      > > > discriminated against
      >
      > > > > >> > > as if others and as if merely primitive nomadic
      > hunter--gatherers.
      >
      > > > > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, African, mother
      >
      > > > nature
      >
      > > > > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially
      >
      > > > discriminated against
      >
      > > > > >> > > as if others.
      >
      > > > > >> > > ---Remembering!
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > Biggest best true nature with all,
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > Jason Stewart
      >
      > > > > >> > > Bama Country
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > >________________________________
      >
      > > > > >> > > > From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>
      >
      > > > > >> > > >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > > > > >> > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 2:10 AM
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
      >
      > > > > >> > > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > >Hi Jason,
      >
      > > > > >> > > >Got some more details about this, see the link.
      >
      > > > > >> > > >
      >
      > > > > >> > >
      >
      > > >
      > http://www.scoop.it/t/energy-crisis-and-you/p/3906136431/india-bihar-paddy-record-yield-sri-pdf
      >
      > > > > >> > > >The variety used was Bayer hybrid variety Arise-6444, while
      > the
      >
      > > > other
      >
      > > > > >> > > farmers used Syngenta�s hybrid 6302, and also the earlier
      > Chinese
      >
      > > > record
      >
      > > > > >> > > also was using the hybrid variety. These varieties may not
      > give
      >
      > > > sustained
      >
      > > > > >> > > yields, earlier there was IR8 rice which was famous in India,
      > but
      >
      > > > later
      >
      > > > > >> > > diseases were more for them, and farmers abandoned it and
      > started
      >
      > > > using
      >
      > > > > >> > > local high yield varieties. Here is the summary of the
      > process,
      >
      > > > followed by
      >
      > > > > >> > > Sumant Kumar.
      >
      > > > > >> > > >- Daincha was grown for green manure- Two deep ploughings
      > (One
      >
      > > > on May 1
      >
      > > > > >> > > and other June 16)- Two shallow ploughings (One on June 21 and
      >
      > > > June 29)-
      >
      > > > > >> > > Puddling- Farm yard manure of 6 tons/hectre during land
      >
      > > > preparation-
      >
      > > > > >> > > 80Kg/ha DAP and 40Kg/ha potash- Urea 40Kg/ha- Poultry manure -
      >
      > > > > >> > > 400Kg/ha-Vermicompost - 100Kg/ha - Compound containing PSB -
      >
      > > > 40Kg/ha-
      >
      > > > > >> > > Micronutrient foliar spray - 25Kg/ha- No chemical weed
      > control in
      >
      > > > the
      >
      > > > > >> > > field, weed control using cono weeder- 25cmx25cm spacing with
      > one
      >
      > > > seedling
      >
      > > > > >> > > per hill - 16 plants/m2
      >
      > > > > >> > > >I think, the heavy yield is a result of hybrid rice and all
      > the
      >
      > > > manure
      >
      > > > > >> > > application and SRI method's benefits, so no point in talking
      > to
      >
      > > > them and
      >
      > > > > >> > > my Hindi is not that good.
      >
      > > > > >> > > >What we would like to hear is about getting a reasonable
      >
      > > > consistent yield
      >
      > > > > >> > > and high quality rice using natural farming methods which can
      > be
      >
      > > > reproduced
      >
      > > > > >> > > with some changes in different parts of the world.
      >
      > > > > >> > > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > >Regards,Nandan
      >
      > > > > >> > > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > >--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Jason Stewart macropneuma@...> wrote:
      >
      > > > > >> > > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > >From: Jason Stewart macropneuma@...>
      >
      > > > > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
      >
      > > > > >> > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@..._farming@yahoogroups.com>
      >
      > > > > >> > > >Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:48 PM
      >
      > > > > >> > > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > >
      >
      > > > > >> > > >Ye
      >
      > > >
      >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      > >
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