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Re: Digest Number 3043

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  • Jason
    Not the terms i mean, (---with consciously misconstruing my words, do you want to provoke or precipitate a disagreement or a fight?---that has already been won
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 18, 2013
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      Not the terms i mean, (---with consciously misconstruing my words, do you want to provoke or precipitate a disagreement or a fight?---that has already been won by mother nature.)
      by definition mother (Fukuoka) nature/natural farmers do not pump up their farming ways, their crops, their soils, their farm nature, with reduced artificially concentrated ways, any more than does the rest of mother nature with humans absent (wild).
      But then there in the small British island part of the world,
      all farmers may do so and maybe the conditioning of all people there is that that is what defines their farming; the arrival of the Celts and related Indo-European languages speaking peoples in Britain about 6,000 years ago, i read, saw the end of nature farming and nature farming peoples and of so called hunter gatherers, variously the Picts, Pictish peoples and so on---a sad, finality of a story---although the Celtic peoples, i read, had half versions of nature farming as well---as well as the Indo-European language family defined by its unsustainable farming derived from its agricultural centre of origin and expansion, the once fertile cresent and mesopotamia---i read the words that the mesopotamian culture 'civilisation' at that time was agri--culturally suicidal, self-destructing some few thousand years after it started, and so from its self-destroying nest meanwhile started spreading out to gradually taking over people's lands, evil colonisation, eventually reaching Britain about 6,000 years ago (i read all this in many British and European English language, widely published, peer reviewed, scholarly science papers).
      In my world it is contacts with people all over the world, in Japan, Americas, Mediterranean, in the subcontinent, Pacific islands, and with Australians, Tibetans, a Mongolian family the other day, and so on that make a multi-cultural collective definition of the possibilites and wider parameters of farming (--i've long ago taken note the etymology of the English language word farming).

      Say i writing here with one hand while eating grumichama tropical fruits with the other hand.
      Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this.

      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Alan Sloan <alan851603@...> wrote:
      >
      > Jason,
      > thanks.
      > All farmers pump up nature - that's what Farming is.
      > The key is to discover the seed inside the pumpkin, the flesh is just a
      > clue.
      > Best regards,
      > Alan
      >
      >
      > On 18 February 2013 22:35, Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > Okay,
      > > thanks Nandan for doing the extra research.
      > > It seems now there would not be any point in contacting them.
      > > It is an awesome yield, but that reads as, in fact, not from nature's
      > > powers, eg. micro-organisms.
      > > That research source's evidence seems like its great news will not last
      > > over future years---not so much to call it a freak occurence which the
      > > Guardian newspaer article clarifies it is not but that it's a short term,
      > > temporary, few years, artificially forced, 'pumped up', result. A metaphor
      > > is a balloon that may last for a few years and perish or may simply pop
      > > with any change of nature---metaphor for words like fragile, brittle, not
      > > solid, not resilient.
      > > eg. pests or disease may easily run rife through randomly it in any year
      > > and then poisons may get used---remembering the infamous potato failure
      > > famine of Ireland and many more from over dependence on reduced
      > > artificially concentrated ways, changed weather events and cycle may
      > > drastically reduce the yield or simply destroy its fragile dependencies
      > > Does not sound like any natural or nature farming---farming done by
      > > nature's powers with people as members---does not sound nutritious for me,
      > > for my body's health and does not sound tasty to eat for me.
      > > ---can't be too careful.
      > > It sounds like it's a little less artificial, false and superficial than
      > > the realm of some English language world of Australian, US and British
      > > conventional chemical farmers getting short-lived TV, radio, newspaper,
      > > local community fame
      > > for growing the largest, monstrous sized, giant pumpkins---not good eating
      > > except for cattle and perhaps in soup---using all manner of hybridised
      > > extreme growth, varieties and extremes of fertilising and so on---freak
      > > pumpkins.
      > > In summary in one phrase: Not sustainable---on the research sources
      > > evidence provided here by Alan and Nandan, thank you
      > > ---a study learning exercise that *is helpful* to inform the awareness,
      > > thank you.
      > >
      > > Thanks Ruthie---for the back to reality, reminder. There are Fukuoka way
      > > nature farmers in the Philippines---i just have to re--find the written
      > > sources; and in
      > > France there's a Fukuoka nature farming research institute "Institut
      > > Technique d'Agriculture Naturelle" (ITAN)
      > > --> http://www.itan.fr
      > > --> http://www.itan.fr/litan
      > >
      > > --> http://www.itan.fr/fukuoka
      > >
      > > --> etc. ---there's many written articles there, to read (and perhaps
      > > translate to English)
      > >
      > > ---led by d�Olivier Barbi� and more people,
      > > ---I was sure you had been already aware of these good institute folks,
      > > Ruthie(?).
      > > and
      > > some few French, on the internet, Fukuoka nature farmers---i just have to
      > > re--find all of them in their written internet sources---
      > > and perhaps these folks are --> http://marssfarm.centerblog.net/
      > >
      > > Remember a majority of true nature farmers who've chosen to return fully
      > > back to nature, along the awareness development road,
      > > do not continue with or (in so called third world) have never used, the
      > > internet media or even do much writing about their farming or do written
      > > media appearances. Thinking of both:
      > >
      > > so called third world farmers who never left mother nature, in India,
      > > Africa, Papua and first Australians, first Americans, so called peasant
      > > Chinese and Russians, etc., etc. and
      > > of so called second and first world farmers returning entirely to nature's
      > > bosom.
      > > Remember, more careful about the full compliment of mother natures
      > > farmer's as small but very valuable part of the majority of *all*
      > > 7,000,000,000 people the world (but who are not in the so called modern, so
      > > called civilised world. Please support, eg through Survival International
      > > (UK based))
      > > Eg. Quinoa, native potato, tomato, grain amaranth, native corn, � first
      > > American peoples (south, meso and north) native, mother nature -- farmers.
      > > Indian so called peasant mother nature farmers, some peoples of who have
      > > been labelled so called tribals and been long time racially discriminated
      > > against as if others.
      > > Tibetan, Nepali, Bhutanese and more Himalayan mother nature farmers.
      > > Ainu and Ryukyu, Japan, mother nature farmers.
      > > Chinese peoples mother nature farmers who have been labelled so called
      > > peasants and other-ed ---read New Zealand and Pacific ocean region based
      > > terraquaculture and Professor Haikai Tane writings on Chinese nature
      > > farming.
      > > Mongolian (some who are farmers not only herders), Russian and former USSR
      > > states' so called peasants, mother nature
      > > Hundreds of Pacific Islands mother nature farming, eg. Hawaii, New Zealand
      > > Maori, Vanautu, Samoa, etc..
      > > Papua New Guinea and West Papua mother nature farmers, many many different
      > > cultures of first peoples, who have been so called natives/Aborigines and
      > > been treated as if others.
      > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, Australian, mother nature
      > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially discriminated against
      > > as if others and as if merely primitive nomadic hunter--gatherers.
      > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, African, mother nature
      > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially discriminated against
      > > as if others.
      > > ---Remembering!
      > >
      > >
      > > Biggest best true nature with all,
      > >
      > > Jason Stewart
      > > Bama Country
      > >
      > > >________________________________
      > > > From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>
      > > >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 2:10 AM
      > >
      > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >Hi Jason,
      > > >Got some more details about this, see the link.
      > > >
      > > http://www.scoop.it/t/energy-crisis-and-you/p/3906136431/india-bihar-paddy-record-yield-sri-pdf
      > > >The variety used was Bayer hybrid variety Arise-6444, while the other
      > > farmers used Syngenta�s hybrid 6302, and also the earlier Chinese record
      > > also was using the hybrid variety. These varieties may not give sustained
      > > yields, earlier there was IR8 rice which was famous in India, but later
      > > diseases were more for them, and farmers abandoned it and started using
      > > local high yield varieties. Here is the summary of the process, followed by
      > > Sumant Kumar.
      > > >- Daincha was grown for green manure- Two deep ploughings (One on May 1
      > > and other June 16)- Two shallow ploughings (One on June 21 and June 29)-
      > > Puddling- Farm yard manure of 6 tons/hectre during land preparation-
      > > 80Kg/ha DAP and 40Kg/ha potash- Urea 40Kg/ha- Poultry manure -
      > > 400Kg/ha-Vermicompost - 100Kg/ha - Compound containing PSB - 40Kg/ha-
      > > Micronutrient foliar spray - 25Kg/ha- No chemical weed control in the
      > > field, weed control using cono weeder- 25cmx25cm spacing with one seedling
      > > per hill - 16 plants/m2
      > > >I think, the heavy yield is a result of hybrid rice and all the manure
      > > application and SRI method's benefits, so no point in talking to them and
      > > my Hindi is not that good.
      > > >What we would like to hear is about getting a reasonable consistent yield
      > > and high quality rice using natural farming methods which can be reproduced
      > > with some changes in different parts of the world.
      > > >
      > > >Regards,Nandan
      > > >
      > > >--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Jason Stewart macropneuma@...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >From: Jason Stewart macropneuma@...>
      > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
      > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@..._farming@yahoogroups.com>
      > > >Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:48 PM
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >Yes thanks for the link from the Guardian UK newspaper!
      > > >
      > > >That is an awesome yield---really important---but yield is not
      > > everything, as well known. Yes also, i've read about SRI ways and they are
      > > not Bonfils---they don't originate from Marc Bonfls.
      > > >
      > > >This rice sounds nutritious also and sounds like it may be good tasting
      > > to eat---from more or less natural grown. But not nearly as natural as
      > > nature's own or nature farming grown rice.
      > > >
      > > >Actually Nandan, from an ecologist and natural historian's point of view
      > > it is not surprising they got this record yield, and many plausible natural
      > > history explanations come to mind as to why they did---said you're
      > > wondering why---eg. microbiology would be a most likely basis for assuming
      > > why.
      > > >
      > > >Why don't you get in contact with them and ask them. i would be very
      > > pleased to hear you in communications with them.
      > > >
      > > >Probably it is not too complicated, just very specific as natural history
      > > is very nature--place--specific.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >Biggest best true nature with all,
      > > >
      > > >Jason Stewart
      > > >
      > > >Bama Country
      > > >
      > > >>________________________________
      > > >
      > > >> From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>
      > > >
      > > >>To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > >>Sent: Monday, 18 February 2013 11:08 PM
      > > >
      > > >>Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>Hi Alan,
      > > >
      > > >>Thanks for sharing this. This is an excellent result using organic
      > > farming methods - 22.4 ton/hectre - ie. 9300Kg per acre, unbelievable
      > > results !!!
      > > >
      > > >>But the method is not similar to Bonfils, it is SRI method where the
      > > field is ploughed and rice plants are transplanted, there is no flooding,
      > > but just maintains moisture in the field. But there is no cover crop like
      > > in Bonfils method and tilling is not done in Bonfils..
      > > >
      > > >>In SRI method, just 3Kgs of seeds are used for making nursery, while
      > > conventionally around 35Kgs of seeds are used for broadcasting. I don't
      > > really understand why the yield is so high compared to conventional method,
      > > the natural farming method should also give high yield, the only real
      > > difference is in field preparation and weeding. Or is it that paddy grows
      > > best in muddy field? I started getting doubts like this.
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>Regards,Nandan
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Alan Sloan alan851603@...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>From: Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
      > > >
      > > >>Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
      > > >
      > > >>To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > >>Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 4:54 PM
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>FYI -World record yield using a Bonfils type cultivation with only
      > > natural
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>fertilisers.
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>I wonder has Sumant Kumar tried direct seeding?
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2013/feb/16/india-rice-farmers-revolution
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>Alan
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Alan Sloan
      Words mislead us, Making more room in the ecosystem for mankind is farming and involves enhancing the populations of some plants at the expense of others. NF
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 19, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Words mislead us, Making more room in the ecosystem for mankind is farming and involves enhancing the populations of some plants at the expense of others. NF rules out destructive techniques of doing this!

        You meant pumping up as the use of fertilisers, I was thinking that basically all farming is pumping up the types if plant we want ....

        Alan

        On 19 Feb 2013, at 00:49, "Jason" <macropneuma@...> wrote:

        > Not the terms i mean, (---with consciously misconstruing my words, do you want to provoke or precipitate a disagreement or a fight?---that has already been won by mother nature.)
        > by definition mother (Fukuoka) nature/natural farmers do not pump up their farming ways, their crops, their soils, their farm nature, with reduced artificially concentrated ways, any more than does the rest of mother nature with humans absent (wild).
        > But then there in the small British island part of the world,
        > all farmers may do so and maybe the conditioning of all people there is that that is what defines their farming; the arrival of the Celts and related Indo-European languages speaking peoples in Britain about 6,000 years ago, i read, saw the end of nature farming and nature farming peoples and of so called hunter gatherers, variously the Picts, Pictish peoples and so on---a sad, finality of a story---although the Celtic peoples, i read, had half versions of nature farming as well---as well as the Indo-European language family defined by its unsustainable farming derived from its agricultural centre of origin and expansion, the once fertile cresent and mesopotamia---i read the words that the mesopotamian culture 'civilisation' at that time was agri--culturally suicidal, self-destructing some few thousand years after it started, and so from its self-destroying nest meanwhile started spreading out to gradually taking over people's lands, evil colonisation, eventually reaching Britain about 6,000 years ago (i read all this in many British and European English language, widely published, peer reviewed, scholarly science papers).
        > In my world it is contacts with people all over the world, in Japan, Americas, Mediterranean, in the subcontinent, Pacific islands, and with Australians, Tibetans, a Mongolian family the other day, and so on that make a multi-cultural collective definition of the possibilites and wider parameters of farming (--i've long ago taken note the etymology of the English language word farming).
        >
        > Say i writing here with one hand while eating grumichama tropical fruits with the other hand.
        > Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this.
        >
        > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Alan Sloan wrote:
        > >
        > > Jason,
        > > thanks.
        > > All farmers pump up nature - that's what Farming is.
        > > The key is to discover the seed inside the pumpkin, the flesh is just a
        > > clue.
        > > Best regards,
        > > Alan
        > >
        > >
        > > On 18 February 2013 22:35, Jason Stewart wrote:
        > >
        > > > **
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Okay,
        > > > thanks Nandan for doing the extra research.
        > > > It seems now there would not be any point in contacting them.
        > > > It is an awesome yield, but that reads as, in fact, not from nature's
        > > > powers, eg. micro-organisms.
        > > > That research source's evidence seems like its great news will not last
        > > > over future years---not so much to call it a freak occurence which the
        > > > Guardian newspaer article clarifies it is not but that it's a short term,
        > > > temporary, few years, artificially forced, 'pumped up', result. A metaphor
        > > > is a balloon that may last for a few years and perish or may simply pop
        > > > with any change of nature---metaphor for words like fragile, brittle, not
        > > > solid, not resilient.
        > > > eg. pests or disease may easily run rife through randomly it in any year
        > > > and then poisons may get used---remembering the infamous potato failure
        > > > famine of Ireland and many more from over dependence on reduced
        > > > artificially concentrated ways, changed weather events and cycle may
        > > > drastically reduce the yield or simply destroy its fragile dependencies
        > > > Does not sound like any natural or nature farming---farming done by
        > > > nature's powers with people as members---does not sound nutritious for me,
        > > > for my body's health and does not sound tasty to eat for me.
        > > > ---can't be too careful.
        > > > It sounds like it's a little less artificial, false and superficial than
        > > > the realm of some English language world of Australian, US and British
        > > > conventional chemical farmers getting short-lived TV, radio, newspaper,
        > > > local community fame
        > > > for growing the largest, monstrous sized, giant pumpkins---not good eating
        > > > except for cattle and perhaps in soup---using all manner of hybridised
        > > > extreme growth, varieties and extremes of fertilising and so on---freak
        > > > pumpkins.
        > > > In summary in one phrase: Not sustainable---on the research sources
        > > > evidence provided here by Alan and Nandan, thank you
        > > > ---a study learning exercise that *is helpful* to inform the awareness,
        > > > thank you.
        > > >
        > > > Thanks Ruthie---for the back to reality, reminder. There are Fukuoka way
        > > > nature farmers in the Philippines---i just have to re--find the written
        > > > sources; and in
        > > > France there's a Fukuoka nature farming research institute "Institut
        > > > Technique d'Agriculture Naturelle" (ITAN)
        > > > --> http://www.itan.fr
        > > > --> http://www.itan.fr/litan
        > > >
        > > > --> http://www.itan.fr/fukuoka
        > > >
        > > > --> etc. ---there's many written articles there, to read (and perhaps
        > > > translate to English)
        > > >
        > > > ---led by d�Olivier Barbi� and more people,
        > > > ---I was sure you had been already aware of these good institute folks,
        > > > Ruthie(?).
        > > > and
        > > > some few French, on the internet, Fukuoka nature farmers---i just have to
        > > > re--find all of them in their written internet sources---
        > > > and perhaps these folks are --> http://marssfarm.centerblog.net/
        > > >
        > > > Remember a majority of true nature farmers who've chosen to return fully
        > > > back to nature, along the awareness development road,
        > > > do not continue with or (in so called third world) have never used, the
        > > > internet media or even do much writing about their farming or do written
        > > > media appearances. Thinking of both:
        > > >
        > > > so called third world farmers who never left mother nature, in India,
        > > > Africa, Papua and first Australians, first Americans, so called peasant
        > > > Chinese and Russians, etc., etc. and
        > > > of so called second and first world farmers returning entirely to nature's
        > > > bosom.
        > > > Remember, more careful about the full compliment of mother natures
        > > > farmer's as small but very valuable part of the majority of *all*
        > > > 7,000,000,000 people the world (but who are not in the so called modern, so
        > > > called civilised world. Please support, eg through Survival International
        > > > (UK based))
        > > > Eg. Quinoa, native potato, tomato, grain amaranth, native corn, � first
        > > > American peoples (south, meso and north) native, mother nature -- farmers.
        > > > Indian so called peasant mother nature farmers, some peoples of who have
        > > > been labelled so called tribals and been long time racially discriminated
        > > > against as if others.
        > > > Tibetan, Nepali, Bhutanese and more Himalayan mother nature farmers.
        > > > Ainu and Ryukyu, Japan, mother nature farmers.
        > > > Chinese peoples mother nature farmers who have been labelled so called
        > > > peasants and other-ed ---read New Zealand and Pacific ocean region based
        > > > terraquaculture and Professor Haikai Tane writings on Chinese nature
        > > > farming.
        > > > Mongolian (some who are farmers not only herders), Russian and former USSR
        > > > states' so called peasants, mother nature
        > > > Hundreds of Pacific Islands mother nature farming, eg. Hawaii, New Zealand
        > > > Maori, Vanautu, Samoa, etc..
        > > > Papua New Guinea and West Papua mother nature farmers, many many different
        > > > cultures of first peoples, who have been so called natives/Aborigines and
        > > > been treated as if others.
        > > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, Australian, mother nature
        > > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially discriminated against
        > > > as if others and as if merely primitive nomadic hunter--gatherers.
        > > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, African, mother nature
        > > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially discriminated against
        > > > as if others.
        > > > ---Remembering!
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Biggest best true nature with all,
        > > >
        > > > Jason Stewart
        > > > Bama Country
        > > >
        > > > >________________________________
        > > > > From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>
        > > > >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 2:10 AM
        > > >
        > > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >Hi Jason,
        > > > >Got some more details about this, see the link.
        > > > >
        > > > http://www.scoop.it/t/energy-crisis-and-you/p/3906136431/india-bihar-paddy-record-yield-sri-pdf
        > > > >The variety used was Bayer hybrid variety Arise-6444, while the other
        > > > farmers used Syngenta�s hybrid 6302, and also the earlier Chinese record
        > > > also was using the hybrid variety. These varieties may not give sustained
        > > > yields, earlier there was IR8 rice which was famous in India, but later
        > > > diseases were more for them, and farmers abandoned it and started using
        > > > local high yield varieties. Here is the summary of the process, followed by
        > > > Sumant Kumar.
        > > > >- Daincha was grown for green manure- Two deep ploughings (One on May 1
        > > > and other June 16)- Two shallow ploughings (One on June 21 and June 29)-
        > > > Puddling- Farm yard manure of 6 tons/hectre during land preparation-
        > > > 80Kg/ha DAP and 40Kg/ha potash- Urea 40Kg/ha- Poultry manure -
        > > > 400Kg/ha-Vermicompost - 100Kg/ha - Compound containing PSB - 40Kg/ha-
        > > > Micronutrient foliar spray - 25Kg/ha- No chemical weed control in the
        > > > field, weed control using cono weeder- 25cmx25cm spacing with one seedling
        > > > per hill - 16 plants/m2
        > > > >I think, the heavy yield is a result of hybrid rice and all the manure
        > > > application and SRI method's benefits, so no point in talking to them and
        > > > my Hindi is not that good.
        > > > >What we would like to hear is about getting a reasonable consistent yield
        > > > and high quality rice using natural farming methods which can be reproduced
        > > > with some changes in different parts of the world.
        > > > >
        > > > >Regards,Nandan
        > > > >
        > > > >--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Jason Stewart macropneuma@...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >From: Jason Stewart macropneuma@...>
        > > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
        > > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@..._farming@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > >Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:48 PM
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >Yes thanks for the link from the Guardian UK newspaper!
        > > > >
        > > > >That is an awesome yield---really important---but yield is not
        > > > everything, as well known. Yes also, i've read about SRI ways and they are
        > > > not Bonfils---they don't originate from Marc Bonfls.
        > > > >
        > > > >This rice sounds nutritious also and sounds like it may be good tasting
        > > > to eat---from more or less natural grown. But not nearly as natural as
        > > > nature's own or nature farming grown rice.
        > > > >
        > > > >Actually Nandan, from an ecologist and natural historian's point of view
        > > > it is not surprising they got this record yield, and many plausible natural
        > > > history explanations come to mind as to why they did---said you're
        > > > wondering why---eg. microbiology would be a most likely basis for assuming
        > > > why.
        > > > >
        > > > >Why don't you get in contact with them and ask them. i would be very
        > > > pleased to hear you in communications with them.
        > > > >
        > > > >Probably it is not too complicated, just very specific as natural history
        > > > is very nature--place--specific.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >Biggest best true nature with all,
        > > > >
        > > > >Jason Stewart
        > > > >
        > > > >Bama Country
        > > > >
        > > > >>________________________________
        > > > >
        > > > >> From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>
        > > > >
        > > > >>To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >
        > > > >>Sent: Monday, 18 February 2013 11:08 PM
        > > > >
        > > > >>Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>Hi Alan,
        > > > >
        > > > >>Thanks for sharing this. This is an excellent result using organic
        > > > farming methods - 22.4 ton/hectre - ie. 9300Kg per acre, unbelievable
        > > > results !!!
        > > > >
        > > > >>But the method is not similar to Bonfils, it is SRI method where the
        > > > field is ploughed and rice plants are transplanted, there is no flooding,
        > > > but just maintains moisture in the field. But there is no cover crop like
        > > > in Bonfils method and tilling is not done in Bonfils..
        > > > >
        > > > >>In SRI method, just 3Kgs of seeds are used for making nursery, while
        > > > conventionally around 35Kgs of seeds are used for broadcasting. I don't
        > > > really understand why the yield is so high compared to conventional method,
        > > > the natural farming method should also give high yield, the only real
        > > > difference is in field preparation and weeding. Or is it that paddy grows
        > > > best in muddy field? I started getting doubts like this.
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>Regards,Nandan
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Alan Sloan alan851603@...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>From: Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
        > > > >
        > > > >>Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
        > > > >
        > > > >>To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >
        > > > >>Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 4:54 PM
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>FYI -World record yield using a Bonfils type cultivation with only
        > > > natural
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>fertilisers.
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>I wonder has Sumant Kumar tried direct seeding?
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2013/feb/16/india-rice-farmers-revolution
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>Alan
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sumant Joshi
        All animals have been changing the ecological landscape throughout history. Humans are no better or worse Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone Warm regards,
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 19, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          All animals have been changing the ecological landscape throughout history. Humans are no better or worse



          Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone


          Warm regards,

          Sumant Joshi
          Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161



          >________________________________
          > From: Alan Sloan <alan851603@...>
          >To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com" <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 1:53 PM
          >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Digest Number 3043
          >
          >

          >Words mislead us, Making more room in the ecosystem for mankind is farming and involves enhancing the populations of some plants at the expense of others. NF rules out destructive techniques of doing this!
          >
          >You meant pumping up as the use of fertilisers, I was thinking that basically all farming is pumping up the types if plant we want ....
          >
          >Alan
          >
          >On 19 Feb 2013, at 00:49, "Jason" macropneuma@...> wrote:
          >
          >> Not the terms i mean, (---with consciously misconstruing my words, do you want to provoke or precipitate a disagreement or a fight?---that has already been won by mother nature.)
          >> by definition mother (Fukuoka) nature/natural farmers do not pump up their farming ways, their crops, their soils, their farm nature, with reduced artificially concentrated ways, any more than does the rest of mother nature with humans absent (wild).
          >> But then there in the small British island part of the world,
          >> all farmers may do so and maybe the conditioning of all people there is that that is what defines their farming; the arrival of the Celts and related Indo-European languages speaking peoples in Britain about 6,000 years ago, i read, saw the end of nature farming and nature farming peoples and of so called hunter gatherers, variously the Picts, Pictish peoples and so on---a sad, finality of a story---although the Celtic peoples, i read, had half versions of nature farming as well---as well as the Indo-European language family defined by its unsustainable farming derived from its agricultural centre of origin and expansion, the once fertile cresent and mesopotamia---i read the words that the mesopotamian culture 'civilisation' at that time was agri--culturally suicidal, self-destructing some few thousand years after it started, and so from its self-destroying nest meanwhile started spreading out to gradually taking over people's lands, evil
          colonisation, eventually reaching Britain about 6,000 years ago (i read all this in many British and European English language, widely published, peer reviewed, scholarly science papers).
          >> In my world it is contacts with people all over the world, in Japan, Americas, Mediterranean, in the subcontinent, Pacific islands, and with Australians, Tibetans, a Mongolian family the other day, and so on that make a multi-cultural collective definition of the possibilites and wider parameters of farming (--i've long ago taken note the etymology of the English language word farming).
          >>
          >> Say i writing here with one hand while eating grumichama tropical fruits with the other hand.
          >> Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this.
          >>
          >> --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Alan Sloan wrote:
          >> >
          >> > Jason,
          >> > thanks.
          >> > All farmers pump up nature - that's what Farming is.
          >> > The key is to discover the seed inside the pumpkin, the flesh is just a
          >> > clue.
          >> > Best regards,
          >> > Alan
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > On 18 February 2013 22:35, Jason Stewart wrote:
          >> >
          >> > > **
          >> > >
          >> > >
          >> > > Okay,
          >> > > thanks Nandan for doing the extra research.
          >> > > It seems now there would not be any point in contacting them.
          >> > > It is an awesome yield, but that reads as, in fact, not from nature's
          >> > > powers, eg. micro-organisms.
          >> > > That research source's evidence seems like its great news will not last
          >> > > over future years---not so much to call it a freak occurence which the
          >> > > Guardian newspaer article clarifies it is not but that it's a short term,
          >> > > temporary, few years, artificially forced, 'pumped up', result. A metaphor
          >> > > is a balloon that may last for a few years and perish or may simply pop
          >> > > with any change of nature---metaphor for words like fragile, brittle, not
          >> > > solid, not resilient.
          >> > > eg. pests or disease may easily run rife through randomly it in any year
          >> > > and then poisons may get used---remembering the infamous potato failure
          >> > > famine of Ireland and many more from over dependence on reduced
          >> > > artificially concentrated ways, changed weather events and cycle may
          >> > > drastically reduce the yield or simply destroy its fragile dependencies
          >> > > Does not sound like any natural or nature farming---farming done by
          >> > > nature's powers with people as members---does not sound nutritious for me,
          >> > > for my body's health and does not sound tasty to eat for me.
          >> > > ---can't be too careful.
          >> > > It sounds like it's a little less artificial, false and superficial than
          >> > > the realm of some English language world of Australian, US and British
          >> > > conventional chemical farmers getting short-lived TV, radio, newspaper,
          >> > > local community fame
          >> > > for growing the largest, monstrous sized, giant pumpkins---not good eating
          >> > > except for cattle and perhaps in soup---using all manner of hybridised
          >> > > extreme growth, varieties and extremes of fertilising and so on---freak
          >> > > pumpkins.
          >> > > In summary in one phrase: Not sustainable---on the research sources
          >> > > evidence provided here by Alan and Nandan, thank you
          >> > > ---a study learning exercise that *is helpful* to inform the awareness,
          >> > > thank you.
          >> > >
          >> > > Thanks Ruthie---for the back to reality, reminder. There are Fukuoka way
          >> > > nature farmers in the Philippines---i just have to re--find the written
          >> > > sources; and in
          >> > > France there's a Fukuoka nature farming research institute "Institut
          >> > > Technique d'Agriculture Naturelle" (ITAN)
          >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr
          >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/litan
          >> > >
          >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/fukuoka
          >> > >
          >> > > --> etc. ---there's many written articles there, to read (and perhaps
          >> > > translate to English)
          >> > >
          >> > > ---led by d�Olivier Barbi� and more people,
          >> > > ---I was sure you had been already aware of these good institute folks,
          >> > > Ruthie(?).
          >> > > and
          >> > > some few French, on the internet, Fukuoka nature farmers---i just have to
          >> > > re--find all of them in their written internet sources---
          >> > > and perhaps these folks are --> http://marssfarm.centerblog.net/
          >> > >
          >> > > Remember a majority of true nature farmers who've chosen to return fully
          >> > > back to nature, along the awareness development road,
          >> > > do not continue with or (in so called third world) have never used, the
          >> > > internet media or even do much writing about their farming or do written
          >> > > media appearances. Thinking of both:
          >> > >
          >> > > so called third world farmers who never left mother nature, in India,
          >> > > Africa, Papua and first Australians, first Americans, so called peasant
          >> > > Chinese and Russians, etc., etc. and
          >> > > of so called second and first world farmers returning entirely to nature's
          >> > > bosom.
          >> > > Remember, more careful about the full compliment of mother natures
          >> > > farmer's as small but very valuable part of the majority of *all*
          >> > > 7,000,000,000 people the world (but who are not in the so called modern, so
          >> > > called civilised world. Please support, eg through Survival International
          >> > > (UK based))
          >> > > Eg. Quinoa, native potato, tomato, grain amaranth, native corn, � first
          >> > > American peoples (south, meso and north) native, mother nature -- farmers.
          >> > > Indian so called peasant mother nature farmers, some peoples of who have
          >> > > been labelled so called tribals and been long time racially discriminated
          >> > > against as if others.
          >> > > Tibetan, Nepali, Bhutanese and more Himalayan mother nature farmers.
          >> > > Ainu and Ryukyu, Japan, mother nature farmers.
          >> > > Chinese peoples mother nature farmers who have been labelled so called
          >> > > peasants and other-ed ---read New Zealand and Pacific ocean region based
          >> > > terraquaculture and Professor Haikai Tane writings on Chinese nature
          >> > > farming.
          >> > > Mongolian (some who are farmers not only herders), Russian and former USSR
          >> > > states' so called peasants, mother nature
          >> > > Hundreds of Pacific Islands mother nature farming, eg. Hawaii, New Zealand
          >> > > Maori, Vanautu, Samoa, etc..
          >> > > Papua New Guinea and West Papua mother nature farmers, many many different
          >> > > cultures of first peoples, who have been so called natives/Aborigines and
          >> > > been treated as if others.
          >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, Australian, mother nature
          >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially discriminated against
          >> > > as if others and as if merely primitive nomadic hunter--gatherers.
          >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, African, mother nature
          >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially discriminated against
          >> > > as if others.
          >> > > ---Remembering!
          >> > >
          >> > >
          >> > > Biggest best true nature with all,
          >> > >
          >> > > Jason Stewart
          >> > > Bama Country
          >> > >
          >> > > >________________________________
          >> > > > From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>
          >> > > >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          >> > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 2:10 AM
          >> > >
          >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
          >> > > >
          >> > > >
          >> > > >
          >> > > >Hi Jason,
          >> > > >Got some more details about this, see the link.
          >> > > >
          >> > > http://www.scoop.it/t/energy-crisis-and-you/p/3906136431/india-bihar-paddy-record-yield-sri-pdf
          >> > > >The variety used was Bayer hybrid variety Arise-6444, while the other
          >> > > farmers used Syngenta�s hybrid 6302, and also the earlier Chinese record
          >> > > also was using the hybrid variety. These varieties may not give sustained
          >> > > yields, earlier there was IR8 rice which was famous in India, but later
          >> > > diseases were more for them, and farmers abandoned it and started using
          >> > > local high yield varieties. Here is the summary of the process, followed by
          >> > > Sumant Kumar.
          >> > > >- Daincha was grown for green manure- Two deep ploughings (One on May 1
          >> > > and other June 16)- Two shallow ploughings (One on June 21 and June 29)-
          >> > > Puddling- Farm yard manure of 6 tons/hectre during land preparation-
          >> > > 80Kg/ha DAP and 40Kg/ha potash- Urea 40Kg/ha- Poultry manure -
          >> > > 400Kg/ha-Vermicompost - 100Kg/ha - Compound containing PSB - 40Kg/ha-
          >> > > Micronutrient foliar spray - 25Kg/ha- No chemical weed control in the
          >> > > field, weed control using cono weeder- 25cmx25cm spacing with one seedling
          >> > > per hill - 16 plants/m2
          >> > > >I think, the heavy yield is a result of hybrid rice and all the manure
          >> > > application and SRI method's benefits, so no point in talking to them and
          >> > > my Hindi is not that good.
          >> > > >What we would like to hear is about getting a reasonable consistent yield
          >> > > and high quality rice using natural farming methods which can be reproduced
          >> > > with some changes in different parts of the world.
          >> > > >
          >> > > >Regards,Nandan
          >> > > >
          >> > > >--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Jason Stewart macropneuma@...> wrote:
          >> > > >
          >> > > >From: Jason Stewart macropneuma@...>
          >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
          >> > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@..._farming@yahoogroups.com>
          >> > > >Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:48 PM
          >> > > >
          >> > > >
          >> > > >
          >> > > >Yes thanks for the link from the Guardian UK newspaper!
          >> > > >
          >> > > >That is an awesome yield---really important---but yield is not
          >> > > everything, as well known. Yes also, i've read about SRI ways and they are
          >> > > not Bonfils---they don't originate from Marc Bonfls.
          >> > > >
          >> > > >This rice sounds nutritious also and sounds like it may be good tasting
          >> > > to eat---from more or less natural grown. But not nearly as natural as
          >> > > nature's own or nature farming grown rice.
          >> > > >
          >> > > >Actually Nandan, from an ecologist and natural historian's point of view
          >> > > it is not surprising they got this record yield, and many plausible natural
          >> > > history explanations come to mind as to why they did---said you're
          >> > > wondering why---eg. microbiology would be a most likely basis for assuming
          >> > > why.
          >> > > >
          >> > > >Why don't you get in contact with them and ask them. i would be very
          >> > > pleased to hear you in communications with them.
          >> > > >
          >> > > >Probably it is not too complicated, just very specific as natural history
          >> > > is very nature--place--specific.
          >> > > >
          >> > > >
          >> > > >
          >> > > >Biggest best true nature with all,
          >> > > >
          >> > > >Jason Stewart
          >> > > >
          >> > > >Bama Country
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>________________________________
          >> > > >
          >> > > >> From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>Sent: Monday, 18 February 2013 11:08 PM
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>Hi Alan,
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>Thanks for sharing this. This is an excellent result using organic
          >> > > farming methods - 22.4 ton/hectre - ie. 9300Kg per acre, unbelievable
          >> > > results !!!
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>But the method is not similar to Bonfils, it is SRI method where the
          >> > > field is ploughed and rice plants are transplanted, there is no flooding,
          >> > > but just maintains moisture in the field. But there is no cover crop like
          >> > > in Bonfils method and tilling is not done in Bonfils..
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>In SRI method, just 3Kgs of seeds are used for making nursery, while
          >> > > conventionally around 35Kgs of seeds are used for broadcasting. I don't
          >> > > really understand why the yield is so high compared to conventional method,
          >> > > the natural farming method should also give high yield, the only real
          >> > > difference is in field preparation and weeding. Or is it that paddy grows
          >> > > best in muddy field? I started getting doubts like this.
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>Regards,Nandan
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Alan Sloan alan851603@...> wrote:
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>From: Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 4:54 PM
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>FYI -World record yield using a Bonfils type cultivation with only
          >> > > natural
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>fertilisers.
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>I wonder has Sumant Kumar tried direct seeding?
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2013/feb/16/india-rice-farmers-revolution
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>Alan
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >>
          >> > > >
          >> > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >> > > >
          >> > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >> > > >
          >> > > >
          >> > > >
          >> > > >
          >> > > >
          >> > >
          >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >> > >
          >> > >
          >> > >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >> >
          >>
          >>
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Alan Sloan
          True, Natural Farmers would be perhaps no different in this respect to animals, but we might agree that the wholesale food producing industrial scale
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 20, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            True, Natural Farmers would be perhaps no different in this respect to animals, but we might agree that the wholesale food producing industrial scale operations are fundamentally
            different - when we start pumping up on that scale it becomes increasingly difficult to avoid generating long term problems?

            I'm wondering how conditions can be changed in favour of NF and the use of "organic" methods in the achievement of record crops is perhaps psychologically helpful, demonstrating that industrialism is not the universal solution. But there are fundamental differences between "organic" and NF approaches which need elaborating.

            Alan




            On 19 Feb 2013, at 16:20, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:

            > All animals have been changing the ecological landscape throughout history. Humans are no better or worse
            >
            > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
            >
            > Warm regards,
            >
            > Sumant Joshi
            > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
            >
            > >________________________________
            > > From: Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
            > >To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com" fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
            > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 1:53 PM
            > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Digest Number 3043
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >Words mislead us, Making more room in the ecosystem for mankind is farming and involves enhancing the populations of some plants at the expense of others. NF rules out destructive techniques of doing this!
            > >
            > >You meant pumping up as the use of fertilisers, I was thinking that basically all farming is pumping up the types if plant we want ....
            > >
            > >Alan
            > >
            > >On 19 Feb 2013, at 00:49, "Jason" macropneuma@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >> Not the terms i mean, (---with consciously misconstruing my words, do you want to provoke or precipitate a disagreement or a fight?---that has already been won by mother nature.)
            > >> by definition mother (Fukuoka) nature/natural farmers do not pump up their farming ways, their crops, their soils, their farm nature, with reduced artificially concentrated ways, any more than does the rest of mother nature with humans absent (wild).
            > >> But then there in the small British island part of the world,
            > >> all farmers may do so and maybe the conditioning of all people there is that that is what defines their farming; the arrival of the Celts and related Indo-European languages speaking peoples in Britain about 6,000 years ago, i read, saw the end of nature farming and nature farming peoples and of so called hunter gatherers, variously the Picts, Pictish peoples and so on---a sad, finality of a story---although the Celtic peoples, i read, had half versions of nature farming as well---as well as the Indo-European language family defined by its unsustainable farming derived from its agricultural centre of origin and expansion, the once fertile cresent and mesopotamia---i read the words that the mesopotamian culture 'civilisation' at that time was agri--culturally suicidal, self-destructing some few thousand years after it started, and so from its self-destroying nest meanwhile started spreading out to gradually taking over people's lands, evil
            > colonisation, eventually reaching Britain about 6,000 years ago (i read all this in many British and European English language, widely published, peer reviewed, scholarly science papers).
            > >> In my world it is contacts with people all over the world, in Japan, Americas, Mediterranean, in the subcontinent, Pacific islands, and with Australians, Tibetans, a Mongolian family the other day, and so on that make a multi-cultural collective definition of the possibilites and wider parameters of farming (--i've long ago taken note the etymology of the English language word farming).
            > >>
            > >> Say i writing here with one hand while eating grumichama tropical fruits with the other hand.
            > >> Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this.
            > >>
            > >> --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Alan Sloan wrote:
            > >> >
            > >> > Jason,
            > >> > thanks.
            > >> > All farmers pump up nature - that's what Farming is.
            > >> > The key is to discover the seed inside the pumpkin, the flesh is just a
            > >> > clue.
            > >> > Best regards,
            > >> > Alan
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > On 18 February 2013 22:35, Jason Stewart wrote:
            > >> >
            > >> > > **
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Okay,
            > >> > > thanks Nandan for doing the extra research.
            > >> > > It seems now there would not be any point in contacting them.
            > >> > > It is an awesome yield, but that reads as, in fact, not from nature's
            > >> > > powers, eg. micro-organisms.
            > >> > > That research source's evidence seems like its great news will not last
            > >> > > over future years---not so much to call it a freak occurence which the
            > >> > > Guardian newspaer article clarifies it is not but that it's a short term,
            > >> > > temporary, few years, artificially forced, 'pumped up', result. A metaphor
            > >> > > is a balloon that may last for a few years and perish or may simply pop
            > >> > > with any change of nature---metaphor for words like fragile, brittle, not
            > >> > > solid, not resilient.
            > >> > > eg. pests or disease may easily run rife through randomly it in any year
            > >> > > and then poisons may get used---remembering the infamous potato failure
            > >> > > famine of Ireland and many more from over dependence on reduced
            > >> > > artificially concentrated ways, changed weather events and cycle may
            > >> > > drastically reduce the yield or simply destroy its fragile dependencies
            > >> > > Does not sound like any natural or nature farming---farming done by
            > >> > > nature's powers with people as members---does not sound nutritious for me,
            > >> > > for my body's health and does not sound tasty to eat for me.
            > >> > > ---can't be too careful.
            > >> > > It sounds like it's a little less artificial, false and superficial than
            > >> > > the realm of some English language world of Australian, US and British
            > >> > > conventional chemical farmers getting short-lived TV, radio, newspaper,
            > >> > > local community fame
            > >> > > for growing the largest, monstrous sized, giant pumpkins---not good eating
            > >> > > except for cattle and perhaps in soup---using all manner of hybridised
            > >> > > extreme growth, varieties and extremes of fertilising and so on---freak
            > >> > > pumpkins.
            > >> > > In summary in one phrase: Not sustainable---on the research sources
            > >> > > evidence provided here by Alan and Nandan, thank you
            > >> > > ---a study learning exercise that *is helpful* to inform the awareness,
            > >> > > thank you.
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Thanks Ruthie---for the back to reality, reminder. There are Fukuoka way
            > >> > > nature farmers in the Philippines---i just have to re--find the written
            > >> > > sources; and in
            > >> > > France there's a Fukuoka nature farming research institute "Institut
            > >> > > Technique d'Agriculture Naturelle" (ITAN)
            > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr
            > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/litan
            > >> > >
            > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/fukuoka
            > >> > >
            > >> > > --> etc. ---there's many written articles there, to read (and perhaps
            > >> > > translate to English)
            > >> > >
            > >> > > ---led by d�Olivier Barbi� and more people,
            > >> > > ---I was sure you had been already aware of these good institute folks,
            > >> > > Ruthie(?).
            > >> > > and
            > >> > > some few French, on the internet, Fukuoka nature farmers---i just have to
            > >> > > re--find all of them in their written internet sources---
            > >> > > and perhaps these folks are --> http://marssfarm.centerblog.net/
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Remember a majority of true nature farmers who've chosen to return fully
            > >> > > back to nature, along the awareness development road,
            > >> > > do not continue with or (in so called third world) have never used, the
            > >> > > internet media or even do much writing about their farming or do written
            > >> > > media appearances. Thinking of both:
            > >> > >
            > >> > > so called third world farmers who never left mother nature, in India,
            > >> > > Africa, Papua and first Australians, first Americans, so called peasant
            > >> > > Chinese and Russians, etc., etc. and
            > >> > > of so called second and first world farmers returning entirely to nature's
            > >> > > bosom.
            > >> > > Remember, more careful about the full compliment of mother natures
            > >> > > farmer's as small but very valuable part of the majority of *all*
            > >> > > 7,000,000,000 people the world (but who are not in the so called modern, so
            > >> > > called civilised world. Please support, eg through Survival International
            > >> > > (UK based))
            > >> > > Eg. Quinoa, native potato, tomato, grain amaranth, native corn, � first
            > >> > > American peoples (south, meso and north) native, mother nature -- farmers.
            > >> > > Indian so called peasant mother nature farmers, some peoples of who have
            > >> > > been labelled so called tribals and been long time racially discriminated
            > >> > > against as if others.
            > >> > > Tibetan, Nepali, Bhutanese and more Himalayan mother nature farmers.
            > >> > > Ainu and Ryukyu, Japan, mother nature farmers.
            > >> > > Chinese peoples mother nature farmers who have been labelled so called
            > >> > > peasants and other-ed ---read New Zealand and Pacific ocean region based
            > >> > > terraquaculture and Professor Haikai Tane writings on Chinese nature
            > >> > > farming.
            > >> > > Mongolian (some who are farmers not only herders), Russian and former USSR
            > >> > > states' so called peasants, mother nature
            > >> > > Hundreds of Pacific Islands mother nature farming, eg. Hawaii, New Zealand
            > >> > > Maori, Vanautu, Samoa, etc..
            > >> > > Papua New Guinea and West Papua mother nature farmers, many many different
            > >> > > cultures of first peoples, who have been so called natives/Aborigines and
            > >> > > been treated as if others.
            > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, Australian, mother nature
            > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially discriminated against
            > >> > > as if others and as if merely primitive nomadic hunter--gatherers.
            > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, African, mother nature
            > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially discriminated against
            > >> > > as if others.
            > >> > > ---Remembering!
            > >> > >
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Biggest best true nature with all,
            > >> > >
            > >> > > Jason Stewart
            > >> > > Bama Country
            > >> > >
            > >> > > >________________________________
            > >> > > > From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>
            > >> > > >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            > >> > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 2:10 AM
            > >> > >
            > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > >Hi Jason,
            > >> > > >Got some more details about this, see the link.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > http://www.scoop.it/t/energy-crisis-and-you/p/3906136431/india-bihar-paddy-record-yield-sri-pdf
            > >> > > >The variety used was Bayer hybrid variety Arise-6444, while the other
            > >> > > farmers used Syngenta�s hybrid 6302, and also the earlier Chinese record
            > >> > > also was using the hybrid variety. These varieties may not give sustained
            > >> > > yields, earlier there was IR8 rice which was famous in India, but later
            > >> > > diseases were more for them, and farmers abandoned it and started using
            > >> > > local high yield varieties. Here is the summary of the process, followed by
            > >> > > Sumant Kumar.
            > >> > > >- Daincha was grown for green manure- Two deep ploughings (One on May 1
            > >> > > and other June 16)- Two shallow ploughings (One on June 21 and June 29)-
            > >> > > Puddling- Farm yard manure of 6 tons/hectre during land preparation-
            > >> > > 80Kg/ha DAP and 40Kg/ha potash- Urea 40Kg/ha- Poultry manure -
            > >> > > 400Kg/ha-Vermicompost - 100Kg/ha - Compound containing PSB - 40Kg/ha-
            > >> > > Micronutrient foliar spray - 25Kg/ha- No chemical weed control in the
            > >> > > field, weed control using cono weeder- 25cmx25cm spacing with one seedling
            > >> > > per hill - 16 plants/m2
            > >> > > >I think, the heavy yield is a result of hybrid rice and all the manure
            > >> > > application and SRI method's benefits, so no point in talking to them and
            > >> > > my Hindi is not that good.
            > >> > > >What we would like to hear is about getting a reasonable consistent yield
            > >> > > and high quality rice using natural farming methods which can be reproduced
            > >> > > with some changes in different parts of the world.
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > >Regards,Nandan
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > >--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Jason Stewart macropneuma@...> wrote:
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > >From: Jason Stewart macropneuma@...>
            > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
            > >> > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@..._farming@yahoogroups.com>
            > >> > > >Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:48 PM
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > >
            > >> > > >Ye


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ruthie Aquino
            You wrote, [...] there are fundamental differences between organic and NF approaches which need elaborating . What kind of elaborating are you thinking of?
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 20, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              You wrote, ' [...] there are fundamental differences between "organic" and
              NF approaches which need elaborating'.
              What kind of elaborating are you thinking of?
              Fukuoka described the difference between the two. It seemed clear enough
              to me.
              All other doubts had been dispelled by Raju Titus's posts, as well as
              experiences shared by members.
              When I observe how slow or erratic my farming is I do not doubt NF but
              rather my application of it.


              2013/2/20 Alan Sloan <alan851603@...>

              > **
              >
              >
              > True, Natural Farmers would be perhaps no different in this respect to
              > animals, but we might agree that the wholesale food producing industrial
              > scale operations are fundamentally
              > different - when we start pumping up on that scale it becomes increasingly
              > difficult to avoid generating long term problems?
              >
              > I'm wondering how conditions can be changed in favour of NF and the use of
              > "organic" methods in the achievement of record crops is perhaps
              > psychologically helpful, demonstrating that industrialism is not the
              > universal solution. But there are fundamental differences between "organic"
              > and NF approaches which need elaborating.
              >
              > Alan
              >
              > On 19 Feb 2013, at 16:20, Sumant Joshi sumant_jo@...> wrote:
              >
              > > All animals have been changing the ecological landscape throughout
              > history. Humans are no better or worse
              > >
              > > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
              > >
              > > Warm regards,
              > >
              > > Sumant Joshi
              > > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
              > >
              > > >________________________________
              > > > From: Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
              > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.comfukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
              > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 1:53 PM
              > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Digest Number 3043
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >Words mislead us, Making more room in the ecosystem for mankind is
              > farming and involves enhancing the populations of some plants at the
              > expense of others. NF rules out destructive techniques of doing this!
              > > >
              > > >You meant pumping up as the use of fertilisers, I was thinking that
              > basically all farming is pumping up the types if plant we want ....
              > > >
              > > >Alan
              > > >
              > > >On 19 Feb 2013, at 00:49, "Jason" macropneuma@...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >> Not the terms i mean, (---with consciously misconstruing my words, do
              > you want to provoke or precipitate a disagreement or a fight?---that has
              > already been won by mother nature.)
              > > >> by definition mother (Fukuoka) nature/natural farmers do not pump up
              > their farming ways, their crops, their soils, their farm nature, with
              > reduced artificially concentrated ways, any more than does the rest of
              > mother nature with humans absent (wild).
              > > >> But then there in the small British island part of the world,
              > > >> all farmers may do so and maybe the conditioning of all people there
              > is that that is what defines their farming; the arrival of the Celts and
              > related Indo-European languages speaking peoples in Britain about 6,000
              > years ago, i read, saw the end of nature farming and nature farming peoples
              > and of so called hunter gatherers, variously the Picts, Pictish peoples and
              > so on---a sad, finality of a story---although the Celtic peoples, i read,
              > had half versions of nature farming as well---as well as the Indo-European
              > language family defined by its unsustainable farming derived from its
              > agricultural centre of origin and expansion, the once fertile cresent and
              > mesopotamia---i read the words that the mesopotamian culture 'civilisation'
              > at that time was agri--culturally suicidal, self-destructing some few
              > thousand years after it started, and so from its self-destroying nest
              > meanwhile started spreading out to gradually taking over people's lands,
              > evil
              > > colonisation, eventually reaching Britain about 6,000 years ago (i read
              > all this in many British and European English language, widely published,
              > peer reviewed, scholarly science papers).
              > > >> In my world it is contacts with people all over the world, in Japan,
              > Americas, Mediterranean, in the subcontinent, Pacific islands, and with
              > Australians, Tibetans, a Mongolian family the other day, and so on that
              > make a multi-cultural collective definition of the possibilites and wider
              > parameters of farming (--i've long ago taken note the etymology of the
              > English language word farming).
              > > >>
              > > >> Say i writing here with one hand while eating grumichama tropical
              > fruits with the other hand.
              > > >> Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this.
              > > >>
              > > >> --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Alan Sloan wrote:
              > > >> >
              > > >> > Jason,
              > > >> > thanks.
              > > >> > All farmers pump up nature - that's what Farming is.
              > > >> > The key is to discover the seed inside the pumpkin, the flesh is
              > just a
              > > >> > clue.
              > > >> > Best regards,
              > > >> > Alan
              > > >> >
              > > >> >
              > > >> > On 18 February 2013 22:35, Jason Stewart wrote:
              > > >> >
              > > >> > > **
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > > Okay,
              > > >> > > thanks Nandan for doing the extra research.
              > > >> > > It seems now there would not be any point in contacting them.
              > > >> > > It is an awesome yield, but that reads as, in fact, not from
              > nature's
              > > >> > > powers, eg. micro-organisms.
              > > >> > > That research source's evidence seems like its great news will
              > not last
              > > >> > > over future years---not so much to call it a freak occurence
              > which the
              > > >> > > Guardian newspaer article clarifies it is not but that it's a
              > short term,
              > > >> > > temporary, few years, artificially forced, 'pumped up', result. A
              > metaphor
              > > >> > > is a balloon that may last for a few years and perish or may
              > simply pop
              > > >> > > with any change of nature---metaphor for words like fragile,
              > brittle, not
              > > >> > > solid, not resilient.
              > > >> > > eg. pests or disease may easily run rife through randomly it in
              > any year
              > > >> > > and then poisons may get used---remembering the infamous potato
              > failure
              > > >> > > famine of Ireland and many more from over dependence on reduced
              > > >> > > artificially concentrated ways, changed weather events and cycle
              > may
              > > >> > > drastically reduce the yield or simply destroy its fragile
              > dependencies
              > > >> > > Does not sound like any natural or nature farming---farming done
              > by
              > > >> > > nature's powers with people as members---does not sound
              > nutritious for me,
              > > >> > > for my body's health and does not sound tasty to eat for me.
              > > >> > > ---can't be too careful.
              > > >> > > It sounds like it's a little less artificial, false and
              > superficial than
              > > >> > > the realm of some English language world of Australian, US and
              > British
              > > >> > > conventional chemical farmers getting short-lived TV, radio,
              > newspaper,
              > > >> > > local community fame
              > > >> > > for growing the largest, monstrous sized, giant pumpkins---not
              > good eating
              > > >> > > except for cattle and perhaps in soup---using all manner of
              > hybridised
              > > >> > > extreme growth, varieties and extremes of fertilising and so
              > on---freak
              > > >> > > pumpkins.
              > > >> > > In summary in one phrase: Not sustainable---on the research
              > sources
              > > >> > > evidence provided here by Alan and Nandan, thank you
              > > >> > > ---a study learning exercise that *is helpful* to inform the
              > awareness,
              > > >> > > thank you.
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > > Thanks Ruthie---for the back to reality, reminder. There are
              > Fukuoka way
              > > >> > > nature farmers in the Philippines---i just have to re--find the
              > written
              > > >> > > sources; and in
              > > >> > > France there's a Fukuoka nature farming research institute
              > "Institut
              > > >> > > Technique d'Agriculture Naturelle" (ITAN)
              > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr
              > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/litan
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/fukuoka
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > > --> etc. ---there's many written articles there, to read (and
              > perhaps
              > > >> > > translate to English)
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > > ---led by d�Olivier Barbi� and more people,
              > > >> > > ---I was sure you had been already aware of these good institute
              > folks,
              > > >> > > Ruthie(?).
              > > >> > > and
              > > >> > > some few French, on the internet, Fukuoka nature farmers---i just
              > have to
              > > >> > > re--find all of them in their written internet sources---
              > > >> > > and perhaps these folks are --> http://marssfarm.centerblog.net/
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > > Remember a majority of true nature farmers who've chosen to
              > return fully
              > > >> > > back to nature, along the awareness development road,
              > > >> > > do not continue with or (in so called third world) have never
              > used, the
              > > >> > > internet media or even do much writing about their farming or do
              > written
              > > >> > > media appearances. Thinking of both:
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > > so called third world farmers who never left mother nature, in
              > India,
              > > >> > > Africa, Papua and first Australians, first Americans, so called
              > peasant
              > > >> > > Chinese and Russians, etc., etc. and
              > > >> > > of so called second and first world farmers returning entirely to
              > nature's
              > > >> > > bosom.
              > > >> > > Remember, more careful about the full compliment of mother natures
              > > >> > > farmer's as small but very valuable part of the majority of *all*
              > > >> > > 7,000,000,000 people the world (but who are not in the so called
              > modern, so
              > > >> > > called civilised world. Please support, eg through Survival
              > International
              > > >> > > (UK based))
              > > >> > > Eg. Quinoa, native potato, tomato, grain amaranth, native corn, �
              > first
              > > >> > > American peoples (south, meso and north) native, mother nature --
              > farmers.
              > > >> > > Indian so called peasant mother nature farmers, some peoples of
              > who have
              > > >> > > been labelled so called tribals and been long time racially
              > discriminated
              > > >> > > against as if others.
              > > >> > > Tibetan, Nepali, Bhutanese and more Himalayan mother nature
              > farmers.
              > > >> > > Ainu and Ryukyu, Japan, mother nature farmers.
              > > >> > > Chinese peoples mother nature farmers who have been labelled so
              > called
              > > >> > > peasants and other-ed ---read New Zealand and Pacific ocean
              > region based
              > > >> > > terraquaculture and Professor Haikai Tane writings on Chinese
              > nature
              > > >> > > farming.
              > > >> > > Mongolian (some who are farmers not only herders), Russian and
              > former USSR
              > > >> > > states' so called peasants, mother nature
              > > >> > > Hundreds of Pacific Islands mother nature farming, eg. Hawaii,
              > New Zealand
              > > >> > > Maori, Vanautu, Samoa, etc..
              > > >> > > Papua New Guinea and West Papua mother nature farmers, many many
              > different
              > > >> > > cultures of first peoples, who have been so called
              > natives/Aborigines and
              > > >> > > been treated as if others.
              > > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, Australian, mother
              > nature
              > > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially
              > discriminated against
              > > >> > > as if others and as if merely primitive nomadic hunter--gatherers.
              > > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, African, mother
              > nature
              > > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially
              > discriminated against
              > > >> > > as if others.
              > > >> > > ---Remembering!
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > > Biggest best true nature with all,
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > > Jason Stewart
              > > >> > > Bama Country
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > > >________________________________
              > > >> > > > From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>
              > > >> > > >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              > > >> > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 2:10 AM
              > > >> > >
              > > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
              > > >> > > >
              > > >> > > >
              > > >> > > >
              > > >> > > >Hi Jason,
              > > >> > > >Got some more details about this, see the link.
              > > >> > > >
              > > >> > >
              > http://www.scoop.it/t/energy-crisis-and-you/p/3906136431/india-bihar-paddy-record-yield-sri-pdf
              > > >> > > >The variety used was Bayer hybrid variety Arise-6444, while the
              > other
              > > >> > > farmers used Syngenta�s hybrid 6302, and also the earlier Chinese
              > record
              > > >> > > also was using the hybrid variety. These varieties may not give
              > sustained
              > > >> > > yields, earlier there was IR8 rice which was famous in India, but
              > later
              > > >> > > diseases were more for them, and farmers abandoned it and started
              > using
              > > >> > > local high yield varieties. Here is the summary of the process,
              > followed by
              > > >> > > Sumant Kumar.
              > > >> > > >- Daincha was grown for green manure- Two deep ploughings (One
              > on May 1
              > > >> > > and other June 16)- Two shallow ploughings (One on June 21 and
              > June 29)-
              > > >> > > Puddling- Farm yard manure of 6 tons/hectre during land
              > preparation-
              > > >> > > 80Kg/ha DAP and 40Kg/ha potash- Urea 40Kg/ha- Poultry manure -
              > > >> > > 400Kg/ha-Vermicompost - 100Kg/ha - Compound containing PSB -
              > 40Kg/ha-
              > > >> > > Micronutrient foliar spray - 25Kg/ha- No chemical weed control in
              > the
              > > >> > > field, weed control using cono weeder- 25cmx25cm spacing with one
              > seedling
              > > >> > > per hill - 16 plants/m2
              > > >> > > >I think, the heavy yield is a result of hybrid rice and all the
              > manure
              > > >> > > application and SRI method's benefits, so no point in talking to
              > them and
              > > >> > > my Hindi is not that good.
              > > >> > > >What we would like to hear is about getting a reasonable
              > consistent yield
              > > >> > > and high quality rice using natural farming methods which can be
              > reproduced
              > > >> > > with some changes in different parts of the world.
              > > >> > > >
              > > >> > > >Regards,Nandan
              > > >> > > >
              > > >> > > >--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Jason Stewart macropneuma@...> wrote:
              > > >> > > >
              > > >> > > >From: Jason Stewart macropneuma@...>
              > > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
              > > >> > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@..._farming@yahoogroups.com>
              > > >> > > >Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:48 PM
              > > >> > > >
              > > >> > > >
              > > >> > > >
              > > >> > > >Ye
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Alan Sloan
              Quite Right. The simple principle of not tilling is the only real difference, it is not elaborate or complicated at all. However it is a big cultural step for
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 21, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Quite Right. The simple principle of not tilling is the only real difference, it is not elaborate or complicated at all.

                However it is a big cultural step for people who were brought up in the "seedbed and no weeds" paradigm to adopt a "seed ball" or "living mulch" way of doing. This is what needs elaboration, for instance answering the question of how germination of a midsummer surface planting of wheat will take place if it doesn't rain.

                All climates and soils differ - faithfully following the Fukuoka rice/beans model is simply not going to work in dry land fields - there is a lot of explaining / demonstrating to do before our organic farmers convert or even feel its worth trying.

                Alan





                On 20 Feb 2013, at 22:06, Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...> wrote:

                > You wrote, ' [...] there are fundamental differences between "organic" and
                > NF approaches which need elaborating'.
                > What kind of elaborating are you thinking of?
                > Fukuoka described the difference between the two. It seemed clear enough
                > to me.
                > All other doubts had been dispelled by Raju Titus's posts, as well as
                > experiences shared by members.
                > When I observe how slow or erratic my farming is I do not doubt NF but
                > rather my application of it.
                >
                > 2013/2/20 Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > True, Natural Farmers would be perhaps no different in this respect to
                > > animals, but we might agree that the wholesale food producing industrial
                > > scale operations are fundamentally
                > > different - when we start pumping up on that scale it becomes increasingly
                > > difficult to avoid generating long term problems?
                > >
                > > I'm wondering how conditions can be changed in favour of NF and the use of
                > > "organic" methods in the achievement of record crops is perhaps
                > > psychologically helpful, demonstrating that industrialism is not the
                > > universal solution. But there are fundamental differences between "organic"
                > > and NF approaches which need elaborating.
                > >
                > > Alan
                > >
                > > On 19 Feb 2013, at 16:20, Sumant Joshi sumant_jo@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > All animals have been changing the ecological landscape throughout
                > > history. Humans are no better or worse
                > > >
                > > > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
                > > >
                > > > Warm regards,
                > > >
                > > > Sumant Joshi
                > > > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
                > > >
                > > > >________________________________
                > > > > From: Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
                > > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.comfukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 1:53 PM
                > > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Digest Number 3043
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >Words mislead us, Making more room in the ecosystem for mankind is
                > > farming and involves enhancing the populations of some plants at the
                > > expense of others. NF rules out destructive techniques of doing this!
                > > > >
                > > > >You meant pumping up as the use of fertilisers, I was thinking that
                > > basically all farming is pumping up the types if plant we want ....
                > > > >
                > > > >Alan
                > > > >
                > > > >On 19 Feb 2013, at 00:49, "Jason" macropneuma@...> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >> Not the terms i mean, (---with consciously misconstruing my words, do
                > > you want to provoke or precipitate a disagreement or a fight?---that has
                > > already been won by mother nature.)
                > > > >> by definition mother (Fukuoka) nature/natural farmers do not pump up
                > > their farming ways, their crops, their soils, their farm nature, with
                > > reduced artificially concentrated ways, any more than does the rest of
                > > mother nature with humans absent (wild).
                > > > >> But then there in the small British island part of the world,
                > > > >> all farmers may do so and maybe the conditioning of all people there
                > > is that that is what defines their farming; the arrival of the Celts and
                > > related Indo-European languages speaking peoples in Britain about 6,000
                > > years ago, i read, saw the end of nature farming and nature farming peoples
                > > and of so called hunter gatherers, variously the Picts, Pictish peoples and
                > > so on---a sad, finality of a story---although the Celtic peoples, i read,
                > > had half versions of nature farming as well---as well as the Indo-European
                > > language family defined by its unsustainable farming derived from its
                > > agricultural centre of origin and expansion, the once fertile cresent and
                > > mesopotamia---i read the words that the mesopotamian culture 'civilisation'
                > > at that time was agri--culturally suicidal, self-destructing some few
                > > thousand years after it started, and so from its self-destroying nest
                > > meanwhile started spreading out to gradually taking over people's lands,
                > > evil
                > > > colonisation, eventually reaching Britain about 6,000 years ago (i read
                > > all this in many British and European English language, widely published,
                > > peer reviewed, scholarly science papers).
                > > > >> In my world it is contacts with people all over the world, in Japan,
                > > Americas, Mediterranean, in the subcontinent, Pacific islands, and with
                > > Australians, Tibetans, a Mongolian family the other day, and so on that
                > > make a multi-cultural collective definition of the possibilites and wider
                > > parameters of farming (--i've long ago taken note the etymology of the
                > > English language word farming).
                > > > >>
                > > > >> Say i writing here with one hand while eating grumichama tropical
                > > fruits with the other hand.
                > > > >> Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this.
                > > > >>
                > > > >> --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Alan Sloan wrote:
                > > > >> >
                > > > >> > Jason,
                > > > >> > thanks.
                > > > >> > All farmers pump up nature - that's what Farming is.
                > > > >> > The key is to discover the seed inside the pumpkin, the flesh is
                > > just a
                > > > >> > clue.
                > > > >> > Best regards,
                > > > >> > Alan
                > > > >> >
                > > > >> >
                > > > >> > On 18 February 2013 22:35, Jason Stewart wrote:
                > > > >> >
                > > > >> > > **
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > > Okay,
                > > > >> > > thanks Nandan for doing the extra research.
                > > > >> > > It seems now there would not be any point in contacting them.
                > > > >> > > It is an awesome yield, but that reads as, in fact, not from
                > > nature's
                > > > >> > > powers, eg. micro-organisms.
                > > > >> > > That research source's evidence seems like its great news will
                > > not last
                > > > >> > > over future years---not so much to call it a freak occurence
                > > which the
                > > > >> > > Guardian newspaer article clarifies it is not but that it's a
                > > short term,
                > > > >> > > temporary, few years, artificially forced, 'pumped up', result. A
                > > metaphor
                > > > >> > > is a balloon that may last for a few years and perish or may
                > > simply pop
                > > > >> > > with any change of nature---metaphor for words like fragile,
                > > brittle, not
                > > > >> > > solid, not resilient.
                > > > >> > > eg. pests or disease may easily run rife through randomly it in
                > > any year
                > > > >> > > and then poisons may get used---remembering the infamous potato
                > > failure
                > > > >> > > famine of Ireland and many more from over dependence on reduced
                > > > >> > > artificially concentrated ways, changed weather events and cycle
                > > may
                > > > >> > > drastically reduce the yield or simply destroy its fragile
                > > dependencies
                > > > >> > > Does not sound like any natural or nature farming---farming done
                > > by
                > > > >> > > nature's powers with people as members---does not sound
                > > nutritious for me,
                > > > >> > > for my body's health and does not sound tasty to eat for me.
                > > > >> > > ---can't be too careful.
                > > > >> > > It sounds like it's a little less artificial, false and
                > > superficial than
                > > > >> > > the realm of some English language world of Australian, US and
                > > British
                > > > >> > > conventional chemical farmers getting short-lived TV, radio,
                > > newspaper,
                > > > >> > > local community fame
                > > > >> > > for growing the largest, monstrous sized, giant pumpkins---not
                > > good eating
                > > > >> > > except for cattle and perhaps in soup---using all manner of
                > > hybridised
                > > > >> > > extreme growth, varieties and extremes of fertilising and so
                > > on---freak
                > > > >> > > pumpkins.
                > > > >> > > In summary in one phrase: Not sustainable---on the research
                > > sources
                > > > >> > > evidence provided here by Alan and Nandan, thank you
                > > > >> > > ---a study learning exercise that *is helpful* to inform the
                > > awareness,
                > > > >> > > thank you.
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > > Thanks Ruthie---for the back to reality, reminder. There are
                > > Fukuoka way
                > > > >> > > nature farmers in the Philippines---i just have to re--find the
                > > written
                > > > >> > > sources; and in
                > > > >> > > France there's a Fukuoka nature farming research institute
                > > "Institut
                > > > >> > > Technique d'Agriculture Naturelle" (ITAN)
                > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr
                > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/litan
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/fukuoka
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > > --> etc. ---there's many written articles there, to read (and
                > > perhaps
                > > > >> > > translate to English)
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > > ---led by d�Olivier Barbi� and more people,
                > > > >> > > ---I was sure you had been already aware of these good institute
                > > folks,
                > > > >> > > Ruthie(?).
                > > > >> > > and
                > > > >> > > some few French, on the internet, Fukuoka nature farmers---i just
                > > have to
                > > > >> > > re--find all of them in their written internet sources---
                > > > >> > > and perhaps these folks are --> http://marssfarm.centerblog.net/
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > > Remember a majority of true nature farmers who've chosen to
                > > return fully
                > > > >> > > back to nature, along the awareness development road,
                > > > >> > > do not continue with or (in so called third world) have never
                > > used, the
                > > > >> > > internet media or even do much writing about their farming or do
                > > written
                > > > >> > > media appearances. Thinking of both:
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > > so called third world farmers who never left mother nature, in
                > > India,
                > > > >> > > Africa, Papua and first Australians, first Americans, so called
                > > peasant
                > > > >> > > Chinese and Russians, etc., etc. and
                > > > >> > > of so called second and first world farmers returning entirely to
                > > nature's
                > > > >> > > bosom.
                > > > >> > > Remember, more careful about the full compliment of mother natures
                > > > >> > > farmer's as small but very valuable part of the majority of *all*
                > > > >> > > 7,000,000,000 people the world (but who are not in the so called
                > > modern, so
                > > > >> > > called civilised world. Please support, eg through Survival
                > > International
                > > > >> > > (UK based))
                > > > >> > > Eg. Quinoa, native potato, tomato, grain amaranth, native corn, �
                > > first
                > > > >> > > American peoples (south, meso and north) native, mother nature --
                > > farmers.
                > > > >> > > Indian so called peasant mother nature farmers, some peoples of
                > > who have
                > > > >> > > been labelled so called tribals and been long time racially
                > > discriminated
                > > > >> > > against as if others.
                > > > >> > > Tibetan, Nepali, Bhutanese and more Himalayan mother nature
                > > farmers.
                > > > >> > > Ainu and Ryukyu, Japan, mother nature farmers.
                > > > >> > > Chinese peoples mother nature farmers who have been labelled so
                > > called
                > > > >> > > peasants and other-ed ---read New Zealand and Pacific ocean
                > > region based
                > > > >> > > terraquaculture and Professor Haikai Tane writings on Chinese
                > > nature
                > > > >> > > farming.
                > > > >> > > Mongolian (some who are farmers not only herders), Russian and
                > > former USSR
                > > > >> > > states' so called peasants, mother nature
                > > > >> > > Hundreds of Pacific Islands mother nature farming, eg. Hawaii,
                > > New Zealand
                > > > >> > > Maori, Vanautu, Samoa, etc..
                > > > >> > > Papua New Guinea and West Papua mother nature farmers, many many
                > > different
                > > > >> > > cultures of first peoples, who have been so called
                > > natives/Aborigines and
                > > > >> > > been treated as if others.
                > > > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, Australian, mother
                > > nature
                > > > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially
                > > discriminated against
                > > > >> > > as if others and as if merely primitive nomadic hunter--gatherers.
                > > > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, African, mother
                > > nature
                > > > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially
                > > discriminated against
                > > > >> > > as if others.
                > > > >> > > ---Remembering!
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > > Biggest best true nature with all,
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > > Jason Stewart
                > > > >> > > Bama Country
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > > >________________________________
                > > > >> > > > From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>
                > > > >> > > >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                > > > >> > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 2:10 AM
                > > > >> > >
                > > > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
                > > > >> > > >
                > > > >> > > >
                > > > >> > > >
                > > > >> > > >Hi Jason,
                > > > >> > > >Got some more details about this, see the link.
                > > > >> > > >
                > > > >> > >
                > > http://www.scoop.it/t/energy-crisis-and-you/p/3906136431/india-bihar-paddy-record-yield-sri-pdf
                > > > >> > > >The variety used was Bayer hybrid variety Arise-6444, while the
                > > other
                > > > >> > > farmers used Syngenta�s hybrid 6302, and also the earlier Chinese
                > > record
                > > > >> > > also was using the hybrid variety. These varieties may not give
                > > sustained
                > > > >> > > yields, earlier there was IR8 rice which was famous in India, but
                > > later
                > > > >> > > diseases were more for them, and farmers abandoned it and started
                > > using
                > > > >> > > local high yield varieties. Here is the summary of the process,
                > > followed by
                > > > >> > > Sumant Kumar.
                > > > >> > > >- Daincha was grown for green manure- Two deep ploughings (One
                > > on May 1
                > > > >> > > and other June 16)- Two shallow ploughings (One on June 21 and
                > > June 29)-
                > > > >> > > Puddling- Farm yard manure of 6 tons/hectre during land
                > > preparation-
                > > > >> > > 80Kg/ha DAP and 40Kg/ha potash- Urea 40Kg/ha- Poultry manure -
                > > > >> > > 400Kg/ha-Vermicompost - 100Kg/ha - Compound containing PSB -
                > > 40Kg/ha-
                > > > >> > > Micronutrient foliar spray - 25Kg/ha- No chemical weed control in
                > > the
                > > > >> > > field, weed control using cono weeder- 25cmx25cm spacing with one
                > > seedling
                > > > >> > > per hill - 16 plants/m2
                > > > >> > > >I think, the heavy yield is a result of hybrid rice and all the
                > > manure
                > > > >> > > application and SRI method's benefits, so no point in talking to
                > > them and
                > > > >> > > my Hindi is not that good.
                > > > >> > > >What we would like to hear is about getting a reasonable
                > > consistent yield
                > > > >> > > and high quality rice using natural farming methods which can be
                > > reproduced
                > > > >> > > with some changes in different parts of the world.
                > > > >> > > >
                > > > >> > > >Regards,Nandan
                > > > >> > > >
                > > > >> > > >--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Jason Stewart macropneuma@...> wrote:
                > > > >> > > >
                > > > >> > > >From: Jason Stewart macropneuma@...>
                > > > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
                > > > >> > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@..._farming@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > >> > > >Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:48 PM
                > > > >> > > >
                > > > >> > > >
                > > > >> > > >
                > > > >> > > >Ye
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nandan Palaparambil
                True, lot more experiments on adapting NF to different climates has to take place. Let us encourage discussions on these lines, this will benefit the new
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 21, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  True, lot more experiments on adapting NF to different climates has to take place. Let us encourage discussions on these lines, this will benefit the new comers also, even though some of these topics might have discussed at length earlier.

                  Regards,Nandan


                  --- On Thu, 2/21/13, Alan Sloan <alan851603@...> wrote:

                  From: Alan Sloan <alan851603@...>
                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Digest Number 3043
                  To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com" <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Thursday, February 21, 2013, 2:01 PM
















                   









                  Quite Right. The simple principle of not tilling is the only real difference, it is not elaborate or complicated at all.



                  However it is a big cultural step for people who were brought up in the "seedbed and no weeds" paradigm to adopt a "seed ball" or "living mulch" way of doing. This is what needs elaboration, for instance answering the question of how germination of a midsummer surface planting of wheat will take place if it doesn't rain.



                  All climates and soils differ - faithfully following the Fukuoka rice/beans model is simply not going to work in dry land fields - there is a lot of explaining / demonstrating to do before our organic farmers convert or even feel its worth trying.



                  Alan



                  On 20 Feb 2013, at 22:06, Ruthie Aquino ruthieaquino1@...> wrote:



                  > You wrote, ' [...] there are fundamental differences between "organic" and

                  > NF approaches which need elaborating'.

                  > What kind of elaborating are you thinking of?

                  > Fukuoka described the difference between the two. It seemed clear enough

                  > to me.

                  > All other doubts had been dispelled by Raju Titus's posts, as well as

                  > experiences shared by members.

                  > When I observe how slow or erratic my farming is I do not doubt NF but

                  > rather my application of it.

                  >

                  > 2013/2/20 Alan Sloan alan851603@...>

                  >

                  > > **

                  > >

                  > >

                  > > True, Natural Farmers would be perhaps no different in this respect to

                  > > animals, but we might agree that the wholesale food producing industrial

                  > > scale operations are fundamentally

                  > > different - when we start pumping up on that scale it becomes increasingly

                  > > difficult to avoid generating long term problems?

                  > >

                  > > I'm wondering how conditions can be changed in favour of NF and the use of

                  > > "organic" methods in the achievement of record crops is perhaps

                  > > psychologically helpful, demonstrating that industrialism is not the

                  > > universal solution. But there are fundamental differences between "organic"

                  > > and NF approaches which need elaborating.

                  > >

                  > > Alan

                  > >

                  > > On 19 Feb 2013, at 16:20, Sumant Joshi sumant_jo@...> wrote:

                  > >

                  > > > All animals have been changing the ecological landscape throughout

                  > > history. Humans are no better or worse

                  > > >

                  > > > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone

                  > > >

                  > > > Warm regards,

                  > > >

                  > > > Sumant Joshi

                  > > > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161

                  > > >

                  > > > >________________________________

                  > > > > From: Alan Sloan alan851603@...>

                  > > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.comfukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>

                  > > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 1:53 PM

                  > > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Digest Number 3043

                  > > > >

                  > > > >

                  > > > >

                  > > > >Words mislead us, Making more room in the ecosystem for mankind is

                  > > farming and involves enhancing the populations of some plants at the

                  > > expense of others. NF rules out destructive techniques of doing this!

                  > > > >

                  > > > >You meant pumping up as the use of fertilisers, I was thinking that

                  > > basically all farming is pumping up the types if plant we want ....

                  > > > >

                  > > > >Alan

                  > > > >

                  > > > >On 19 Feb 2013, at 00:49, "Jason" macropneuma@...> wrote:

                  > > > >

                  > > > >> Not the terms i mean, (---with consciously misconstruing my words, do

                  > > you want to provoke or precipitate a disagreement or a fight?---that has

                  > > already been won by mother nature.)

                  > > > >> by definition mother (Fukuoka) nature/natural farmers do not pump up

                  > > their farming ways, their crops, their soils, their farm nature, with

                  > > reduced artificially concentrated ways, any more than does the rest of

                  > > mother nature with humans absent (wild).

                  > > > >> But then there in the small British island part of the world,

                  > > > >> all farmers may do so and maybe the conditioning of all people there

                  > > is that that is what defines their farming; the arrival of the Celts and

                  > > related Indo-European languages speaking peoples in Britain about 6,000

                  > > years ago, i read, saw the end of nature farming and nature farming peoples

                  > > and of so called hunter gatherers, variously the Picts, Pictish peoples and

                  > > so on---a sad, finality of a story---although the Celtic peoples, i read,

                  > > had half versions of nature farming as well---as well as the Indo-European

                  > > language family defined by its unsustainable farming derived from its

                  > > agricultural centre of origin and expansion, the once fertile cresent and

                  > > mesopotamia---i read the words that the mesopotamian culture 'civilisation'

                  > > at that time was agri--culturally suicidal, self-destructing some few

                  > > thousand years after it started, and so from its self-destroying nest

                  > > meanwhile started spreading out to gradually taking over people's lands,

                  > > evil

                  > > > colonisation, eventually reaching Britain about 6,000 years ago (i read

                  > > all this in many British and European English language, widely published,

                  > > peer reviewed, scholarly science papers).

                  > > > >> In my world it is contacts with people all over the world, in Japan,

                  > > Americas, Mediterranean, in the subcontinent, Pacific islands, and with

                  > > Australians, Tibetans, a Mongolian family the other day, and so on that

                  > > make a multi-cultural collective definition of the possibilites and wider

                  > > parameters of farming (--i've long ago taken note the etymology of the

                  > > English language word farming).

                  > > > >>

                  > > > >> Say i writing here with one hand while eating grumichama tropical

                  > > fruits with the other hand.

                  > > > >> Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this.

                  > > > >>

                  > > > >> --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Alan Sloan wrote:

                  > > > >> >

                  > > > >> > Jason,

                  > > > >> > thanks.

                  > > > >> > All farmers pump up nature - that's what Farming is.

                  > > > >> > The key is to discover the seed inside the pumpkin, the flesh is

                  > > just a

                  > > > >> > clue.

                  > > > >> > Best regards,

                  > > > >> > Alan

                  > > > >> >

                  > > > >> >

                  > > > >> > On 18 February 2013 22:35, Jason Stewart wrote:

                  > > > >> >

                  > > > >> > > **

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > > Okay,

                  > > > >> > > thanks Nandan for doing the extra research.

                  > > > >> > > It seems now there would not be any point in contacting them.

                  > > > >> > > It is an awesome yield, but that reads as, in fact, not from

                  > > nature's

                  > > > >> > > powers, eg. micro-organisms.

                  > > > >> > > That research source's evidence seems like its great news will

                  > > not last

                  > > > >> > > over future years---not so much to call it a freak occurence

                  > > which the

                  > > > >> > > Guardian newspaer article clarifies it is not but that it's a

                  > > short term,

                  > > > >> > > temporary, few years, artificially forced, 'pumped up', result. A

                  > > metaphor

                  > > > >> > > is a balloon that may last for a few years and perish or may

                  > > simply pop

                  > > > >> > > with any change of nature---metaphor for words like fragile,

                  > > brittle, not

                  > > > >> > > solid, not resilient.

                  > > > >> > > eg. pests or disease may easily run rife through randomly it in

                  > > any year

                  > > > >> > > and then poisons may get used---remembering the infamous potato

                  > > failure

                  > > > >> > > famine of Ireland and many more from over dependence on reduced

                  > > > >> > > artificially concentrated ways, changed weather events and cycle

                  > > may

                  > > > >> > > drastically reduce the yield or simply destroy its fragile

                  > > dependencies

                  > > > >> > > Does not sound like any natural or nature farming---farming done

                  > > by

                  > > > >> > > nature's powers with people as members---does not sound

                  > > nutritious for me,

                  > > > >> > > for my body's health and does not sound tasty to eat for me.

                  > > > >> > > ---can't be too careful.

                  > > > >> > > It sounds like it's a little less artificial, false and

                  > > superficial than

                  > > > >> > > the realm of some English language world of Australian, US and

                  > > British

                  > > > >> > > conventional chemical farmers getting short-lived TV, radio,

                  > > newspaper,

                  > > > >> > > local community fame

                  > > > >> > > for growing the largest, monstrous sized, giant pumpkins---not

                  > > good eating

                  > > > >> > > except for cattle and perhaps in soup---using all manner of

                  > > hybridised

                  > > > >> > > extreme growth, varieties and extremes of fertilising and so

                  > > on---freak

                  > > > >> > > pumpkins.

                  > > > >> > > In summary in one phrase: Not sustainable---on the research

                  > > sources

                  > > > >> > > evidence provided here by Alan and Nandan, thank you

                  > > > >> > > ---a study learning exercise that *is helpful* to inform the

                  > > awareness,

                  > > > >> > > thank you.

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > > Thanks Ruthie---for the back to reality, reminder. There are

                  > > Fukuoka way

                  > > > >> > > nature farmers in the Philippines---i just have to re--find the

                  > > written

                  > > > >> > > sources; and in

                  > > > >> > > France there's a Fukuoka nature farming research institute

                  > > "Institut

                  > > > >> > > Technique d'Agriculture Naturelle" (ITAN)

                  > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr

                  > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/litan

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/fukuoka

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > > --> etc. ---there's many written articles there, to read (and

                  > > perhaps

                  > > > >> > > translate to English)

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > > ---led by d�Olivier Barbi� and more people,

                  > > > >> > > ---I was sure you had been already aware of these good institute

                  > > folks,

                  > > > >> > > Ruthie(?).

                  > > > >> > > and

                  > > > >> > > some few French, on the internet, Fukuoka nature farmers---i just

                  > > have to

                  > > > >> > > re--find all of them in their written internet sources---

                  > > > >> > > and perhaps these folks are --> http://marssfarm.centerblog.net/

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > > Remember a majority of true nature farmers who've chosen to

                  > > return fully

                  > > > >> > > back to nature, along the awareness development road,

                  > > > >> > > do not continue with or (in so called third world) have never

                  > > used, the

                  > > > >> > > internet media or even do much writing about their farming or do

                  > > written

                  > > > >> > > media appearances. Thinking of both:

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > > so called third world farmers who never left mother nature, in

                  > > India,

                  > > > >> > > Africa, Papua and first Australians, first Americans, so called

                  > > peasant

                  > > > >> > > Chinese and Russians, etc., etc. and

                  > > > >> > > of so called second and first world farmers returning entirely to

                  > > nature's

                  > > > >> > > bosom.

                  > > > >> > > Remember, more careful about the full compliment of mother natures

                  > > > >> > > farmer's as small but very valuable part of the majority of *all*

                  > > > >> > > 7,000,000,000 people the world (but who are not in the so called

                  > > modern, so

                  > > > >> > > called civilised world. Please support, eg through Survival

                  > > International

                  > > > >> > > (UK based))

                  > > > >> > > Eg. Quinoa, native potato, tomato, grain amaranth, native corn, �

                  > > first

                  > > > >> > > American peoples (south, meso and north) native, mother nature --

                  > > farmers.

                  > > > >> > > Indian so called peasant mother nature farmers, some peoples of

                  > > who have

                  > > > >> > > been labelled so called tribals and been long time racially

                  > > discriminated

                  > > > >> > > against as if others.

                  > > > >> > > Tibetan, Nepali, Bhutanese and more Himalayan mother nature

                  > > farmers.

                  > > > >> > > Ainu and Ryukyu, Japan, mother nature farmers.

                  > > > >> > > Chinese peoples mother nature farmers who have been labelled so

                  > > called

                  > > > >> > > peasants and other-ed ---read New Zealand and Pacific ocean

                  > > region based

                  > > > >> > > terraquaculture and Professor Haikai Tane writings on Chinese

                  > > nature

                  > > > >> > > farming.

                  > > > >> > > Mongolian (some who are farmers not only herders), Russian and

                  > > former USSR

                  > > > >> > > states' so called peasants, mother nature

                  > > > >> > > Hundreds of Pacific Islands mother nature farming, eg. Hawaii,

                  > > New Zealand

                  > > > >> > > Maori, Vanautu, Samoa, etc..

                  > > > >> > > Papua New Guinea and West Papua mother nature farmers, many many

                  > > different

                  > > > >> > > cultures of first peoples, who have been so called

                  > > natives/Aborigines and

                  > > > >> > > been treated as if others.

                  > > > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, Australian, mother

                  > > nature

                  > > > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially

                  > > discriminated against

                  > > > >> > > as if others and as if merely primitive nomadic hunter--gatherers.

                  > > > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, African, mother

                  > > nature

                  > > > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially

                  > > discriminated against

                  > > > >> > > as if others.

                  > > > >> > > ---Remembering!

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > > Biggest best true nature with all,

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > > Jason Stewart

                  > > > >> > > Bama Country

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > > >________________________________

                  > > > >> > > > From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>

                  > > > >> > > >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

                  > > > >> > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 2:10 AM

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043

                  > > > >> > > >

                  > > > >> > > >

                  > > > >> > > >

                  > > > >> > > >Hi Jason,

                  > > > >> > > >Got some more details about this, see the link.

                  > > > >> > > >

                  > > > >> > >

                  > > http://www.scoop.it/t/energy-crisis-and-you/p/3906136431/india-bihar-paddy-record-yield-sri-pdf

                  > > > >> > > >The variety used was Bayer hybrid variety Arise-6444, while the

                  > > other

                  > > > >> > > farmers used Syngenta�s hybrid 6302, and also the earlier Chinese

                  > > record

                  > > > >> > > also was using the hybrid variety. These varieties may not give

                  > > sustained

                  > > > >> > > yields, earlier there was IR8 rice which was famous in India, but

                  > > later

                  > > > >> > > diseases were more for them, and farmers abandoned it and started

                  > > using

                  > > > >> > > local high yield varieties. Here is the summary of the process,

                  > > followed by

                  > > > >> > > Sumant Kumar.

                  > > > >> > > >- Daincha was grown for green manure- Two deep ploughings (One

                  > > on May 1

                  > > > >> > > and other June 16)- Two shallow ploughings (One on June 21 and

                  > > June 29)-

                  > > > >> > > Puddling- Farm yard manure of 6 tons/hectre during land

                  > > preparation-

                  > > > >> > > 80Kg/ha DAP and 40Kg/ha potash- Urea 40Kg/ha- Poultry manure -

                  > > > >> > > 400Kg/ha-Vermicompost - 100Kg/ha - Compound containing PSB -

                  > > 40Kg/ha-

                  > > > >> > > Micronutrient foliar spray - 25Kg/ha- No chemical weed control in

                  > > the

                  > > > >> > > field, weed control using cono weeder- 25cmx25cm spacing with one

                  > > seedling

                  > > > >> > > per hill - 16 plants/m2

                  > > > >> > > >I think, the heavy yield is a result of hybrid rice and all the

                  > > manure

                  > > > >> > > application and SRI method's benefits, so no point in talking to

                  > > them and

                  > > > >> > > my Hindi is not that good.

                  > > > >> > > >What we would like to hear is about getting a reasonable

                  > > consistent yield

                  > > > >> > > and high quality rice using natural farming methods which can be

                  > > reproduced

                  > > > >> > > with some changes in different parts of the world.

                  > > > >> > > >

                  > > > >> > > >Regards,Nandan

                  > > > >> > > >

                  > > > >> > > >--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Jason Stewart macropneuma@...> wrote:

                  > > > >> > > >

                  > > > >> > > >From: Jason Stewart macropneuma@...>

                  > > > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043

                  > > > >> > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@..._farming@yahoogroups.com>

                  > > > >> > > >Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:48 PM

                  > > > >> > > >

                  > > > >> > > >

                  > > > >> > > >

                  > > > >> > > >Ye

                  > >

                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  > >

                  > >

                  > >

                  >

                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  >

                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ruthie Aquino
                  Fukuoka said you have to observe how Nature does it, he did not say to plant rice/beans only. I am like those people described by Alan, brought up to do
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 21, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Fukuoka said you have to observe how Nature does it, he did not say to
                    plant rice/beans only.
                    I am like those people described by Alan, brought up to do seedbed-no weeds.
                    The big conversion is in the deep understanding of how to farm and why.
                    The response of my congeneres when I ask them why they plant their
                    vegetables and fruit trees the conventional way is, it has always been done
                    and it has always worked.
                    Now tell them Nature does better than they will ever do.

                    To be frank, I cannot pretend to fully understand why NF works, but then I
                    console myself by saying it is okay to be ignorant.

                    best
                    RUTHIE




                    2013/2/21 Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > True, lot more experiments on adapting NF to different climates has to
                    > take place. Let us encourage discussions on these lines, this will benefit
                    > the new comers also, even though some of these topics might have discussed
                    > at length earlier.
                    >
                    > Regards,Nandan
                    >
                    > --- On Thu, 2/21/13, Alan Sloan alan851603@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
                    >
                    > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Digest Number 3043
                    > To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com" fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Date: Thursday, February 21, 2013, 2:01 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Quite Right. The simple principle of not tilling is the only real
                    > difference, it is not elaborate or complicated at all.
                    >
                    > However it is a big cultural step for people who were brought up in the
                    > "seedbed and no weeds" paradigm to adopt a "seed ball" or "living mulch"
                    > way of doing. This is what needs elaboration, for instance answering the
                    > question of how germination of a midsummer surface planting of wheat will
                    > take place if it doesn't rain.
                    >
                    > All climates and soils differ - faithfully following the Fukuoka
                    > rice/beans model is simply not going to work in dry land fields - there is
                    > a lot of explaining / demonstrating to do before our organic farmers
                    > convert or even feel its worth trying.
                    >
                    > Alan
                    >
                    > On 20 Feb 2013, at 22:06, Ruthie Aquino ruthieaquino1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > You wrote, ' [...] there are fundamental differences between "organic"
                    > and
                    >
                    > > NF approaches which need elaborating'.
                    >
                    > > What kind of elaborating are you thinking of?
                    >
                    > > Fukuoka described the difference between the two. It seemed clear enough
                    >
                    > > to me.
                    >
                    > > All other doubts had been dispelled by Raju Titus's posts, as well as
                    >
                    > > experiences shared by members.
                    >
                    > > When I observe how slow or erratic my farming is I do not doubt NF but
                    >
                    > > rather my application of it.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > 2013/2/20 Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > **
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > True, Natural Farmers would be perhaps no different in this respect to
                    >
                    > > > animals, but we might agree that the wholesale food producing
                    > industrial
                    >
                    > > > scale operations are fundamentally
                    >
                    > > > different - when we start pumping up on that scale it becomes
                    > increasingly
                    >
                    > > > difficult to avoid generating long term problems?
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > I'm wondering how conditions can be changed in favour of NF and the
                    > use of
                    >
                    > > > "organic" methods in the achievement of record crops is perhaps
                    >
                    > > > psychologically helpful, demonstrating that industrialism is not the
                    >
                    > > > universal solution. But there are fundamental differences between
                    > "organic"
                    >
                    > > > and NF approaches which need elaborating.
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > Alan
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > On 19 Feb 2013, at 16:20, Sumant Joshi sumant_jo@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > > All animals have been changing the ecological landscape throughout
                    >
                    > > > history. Humans are no better or worse
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > Warm regards,
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > Sumant Joshi
                    >
                    > > > > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >________________________________
                    >
                    > > > > > From: Alan Sloan alan851603@...>
                    >
                    > > > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.comfukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 1:53 PM
                    >
                    > > > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Digest Number 3043
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >Words mislead us, Making more room in the ecosystem for mankind is
                    >
                    > > > farming and involves enhancing the populations of some plants at the
                    >
                    > > > expense of others. NF rules out destructive techniques of doing this!
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >You meant pumping up as the use of fertilisers, I was thinking that
                    >
                    > > > basically all farming is pumping up the types if plant we want ....
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >Alan
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >On 19 Feb 2013, at 00:49, "Jason" macropneuma@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> Not the terms i mean, (---with consciously misconstruing my
                    > words, do
                    >
                    > > > you want to provoke or precipitate a disagreement or a fight?---that
                    > has
                    >
                    > > > already been won by mother nature.)
                    >
                    > > > > >> by definition mother (Fukuoka) nature/natural farmers do not pump
                    > up
                    >
                    > > > their farming ways, their crops, their soils, their farm nature, with
                    >
                    > > > reduced artificially concentrated ways, any more than does the rest of
                    >
                    > > > mother nature with humans absent (wild).
                    >
                    > > > > >> But then there in the small British island part of the world,
                    >
                    > > > > >> all farmers may do so and maybe the conditioning of all people
                    > there
                    >
                    > > > is that that is what defines their farming; the arrival of the Celts
                    > and
                    >
                    > > > related Indo-European languages speaking peoples in Britain about 6,000
                    >
                    > > > years ago, i read, saw the end of nature farming and nature farming
                    > peoples
                    >
                    > > > and of so called hunter gatherers, variously the Picts, Pictish
                    > peoples and
                    >
                    > > > so on---a sad, finality of a story---although the Celtic peoples, i
                    > read,
                    >
                    > > > had half versions of nature farming as well---as well as the
                    > Indo-European
                    >
                    > > > language family defined by its unsustainable farming derived from its
                    >
                    > > > agricultural centre of origin and expansion, the once fertile cresent
                    > and
                    >
                    > > > mesopotamia---i read the words that the mesopotamian culture
                    > 'civilisation'
                    >
                    > > > at that time was agri--culturally suicidal, self-destructing some few
                    >
                    > > > thousand years after it started, and so from its self-destroying nest
                    >
                    > > > meanwhile started spreading out to gradually taking over people's
                    > lands,
                    >
                    > > > evil
                    >
                    > > > > colonisation, eventually reaching Britain about 6,000 years ago (i
                    > read
                    >
                    > > > all this in many British and European English language, widely
                    > published,
                    >
                    > > > peer reviewed, scholarly science papers).
                    >
                    > > > > >> In my world it is contacts with people all over the world, in
                    > Japan,
                    >
                    > > > Americas, Mediterranean, in the subcontinent, Pacific islands, and with
                    >
                    > > > Australians, Tibetans, a Mongolian family the other day, and so on that
                    >
                    > > > make a multi-cultural collective definition of the possibilites and
                    > wider
                    >
                    > > > parameters of farming (--i've long ago taken note the etymology of the
                    >
                    > > > English language word farming).
                    >
                    > > > > >>
                    >
                    > > > > >> Say i writing here with one hand while eating grumichama tropical
                    >
                    > > > fruits with the other hand.
                    >
                    > > > > >> Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this.
                    >
                    > > > > >>
                    >
                    > > > > >> --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Alan Sloan wrote:
                    >
                    > > > > >> >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > Jason,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > thanks.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > All farmers pump up nature - that's what Farming is.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > The key is to discover the seed inside the pumpkin, the flesh is
                    >
                    > > > just a
                    >
                    > > > > >> > clue.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > Best regards,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > Alan
                    >
                    > > > > >> >
                    >
                    > > > > >> >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > On 18 February 2013 22:35, Jason Stewart wrote:
                    >
                    > > > > >> >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > **
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Okay,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > thanks Nandan for doing the extra research.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > It seems now there would not be any point in contacting them.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > It is an awesome yield, but that reads as, in fact, not from
                    >
                    > > > nature's
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > powers, eg. micro-organisms.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > That research source's evidence seems like its great news will
                    >
                    > > > not last
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > over future years---not so much to call it a freak occurence
                    >
                    > > > which the
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Guardian newspaer article clarifies it is not but that it's a
                    >
                    > > > short term,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > temporary, few years, artificially forced, 'pumped up',
                    > result. A
                    >
                    > > > metaphor
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > is a balloon that may last for a few years and perish or may
                    >
                    > > > simply pop
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > with any change of nature---metaphor for words like fragile,
                    >
                    > > > brittle, not
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > solid, not resilient.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > eg. pests or disease may easily run rife through randomly it
                    > in
                    >
                    > > > any year
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > and then poisons may get used---remembering the infamous
                    > potato
                    >
                    > > > failure
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > famine of Ireland and many more from over dependence on
                    > reduced
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > artificially concentrated ways, changed weather events and
                    > cycle
                    >
                    > > > may
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > drastically reduce the yield or simply destroy its fragile
                    >
                    > > > dependencies
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Does not sound like any natural or nature farming---farming
                    > done
                    >
                    > > > by
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > nature's powers with people as members---does not sound
                    >
                    > > > nutritious for me,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > for my body's health and does not sound tasty to eat for me.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > ---can't be too careful.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > It sounds like it's a little less artificial, false and
                    >
                    > > > superficial than
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > the realm of some English language world of Australian, US and
                    >
                    > > > British
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > conventional chemical farmers getting short-lived TV, radio,
                    >
                    > > > newspaper,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > local community fame
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > for growing the largest, monstrous sized, giant pumpkins---not
                    >
                    > > > good eating
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > except for cattle and perhaps in soup---using all manner of
                    >
                    > > > hybridised
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > extreme growth, varieties and extremes of fertilising and so
                    >
                    > > > on---freak
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > pumpkins.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > In summary in one phrase: Not sustainable---on the research
                    >
                    > > > sources
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > evidence provided here by Alan and Nandan, thank you
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > ---a study learning exercise that *is helpful* to inform the
                    >
                    > > > awareness,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > thank you.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Thanks Ruthie---for the back to reality, reminder. There are
                    >
                    > > > Fukuoka way
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > nature farmers in the Philippines---i just have to re--find
                    > the
                    >
                    > > > written
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > sources; and in
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > France there's a Fukuoka nature farming research institute
                    >
                    > > > "Institut
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Technique d'Agriculture Naturelle" (ITAN)
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/litan
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > --> http://www.itan.fr/fukuoka
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > --> etc. ---there's many written articles there, to read (and
                    >
                    > > > perhaps
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > translate to English)
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > ---led by d�Olivier Barbi� and more people,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > ---I was sure you had been already aware of these good
                    > institute
                    >
                    > > > folks,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Ruthie(?).
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > and
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > some few French, on the internet, Fukuoka nature farmers---i
                    > just
                    >
                    > > > have to
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > re--find all of them in their written internet sources---
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > and perhaps these folks are -->
                    > http://marssfarm.centerblog.net/
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Remember a majority of true nature farmers who've chosen to
                    >
                    > > > return fully
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > back to nature, along the awareness development road,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > do not continue with or (in so called third world) have never
                    >
                    > > > used, the
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > internet media or even do much writing about their farming or
                    > do
                    >
                    > > > written
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > media appearances. Thinking of both:
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > so called third world farmers who never left mother nature, in
                    >
                    > > > India,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Africa, Papua and first Australians, first Americans, so
                    > called
                    >
                    > > > peasant
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Chinese and Russians, etc., etc. and
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > of so called second and first world farmers returning
                    > entirely to
                    >
                    > > > nature's
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > bosom.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Remember, more careful about the full compliment of mother
                    > natures
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > farmer's as small but very valuable part of the majority of
                    > *all*
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > 7,000,000,000 people the world (but who are not in the so
                    > called
                    >
                    > > > modern, so
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > called civilised world. Please support, eg through Survival
                    >
                    > > > International
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > (UK based))
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Eg. Quinoa, native potato, tomato, grain amaranth, native
                    > corn, �
                    >
                    > > > first
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > American peoples (south, meso and north) native, mother
                    > nature --
                    >
                    > > > farmers.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Indian so called peasant mother nature farmers, some peoples
                    > of
                    >
                    > > > who have
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > been labelled so called tribals and been long time racially
                    >
                    > > > discriminated
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > against as if others.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Tibetan, Nepali, Bhutanese and more Himalayan mother nature
                    >
                    > > > farmers.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Ainu and Ryukyu, Japan, mother nature farmers.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Chinese peoples mother nature farmers who have been labelled
                    > so
                    >
                    > > > called
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > peasants and other-ed ---read New Zealand and Pacific ocean
                    >
                    > > > region based
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > terraquaculture and Professor Haikai Tane writings on Chinese
                    >
                    > > > nature
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > farming.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Mongolian (some who are farmers not only herders), Russian and
                    >
                    > > > former USSR
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > states' so called peasants, mother nature
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Hundreds of Pacific Islands mother nature farming, eg. Hawaii,
                    >
                    > > > New Zealand
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Maori, Vanautu, Samoa, etc..
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Papua New Guinea and West Papua mother nature farmers, many
                    > many
                    >
                    > > > different
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > cultures of first peoples, who have been so called
                    >
                    > > > natives/Aborigines and
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > been treated as if others.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, Australian,
                    > mother
                    >
                    > > > nature
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially
                    >
                    > > > discriminated against
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > as if others and as if merely primitive nomadic
                    > hunter--gatherers.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Many many different cultures of first peoples, African, mother
                    >
                    > > > nature
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > farmers, who as peoples have been long time racially
                    >
                    > > > discriminated against
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > as if others.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > ---Remembering!
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Biggest best true nature with all,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Jason Stewart
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Bama Country
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >________________________________
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > > From: Nandan Palaparambil p_k_nandanan@...>
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 2:10 AM
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >Hi Jason,
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >Got some more details about this, see the link.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    > http://www.scoop.it/t/energy-crisis-and-you/p/3906136431/india-bihar-paddy-record-yield-sri-pdf
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >The variety used was Bayer hybrid variety Arise-6444, while
                    > the
                    >
                    > > > other
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > farmers used Syngenta�s hybrid 6302, and also the earlier
                    > Chinese
                    >
                    > > > record
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > also was using the hybrid variety. These varieties may not
                    > give
                    >
                    > > > sustained
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > yields, earlier there was IR8 rice which was famous in India,
                    > but
                    >
                    > > > later
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > diseases were more for them, and farmers abandoned it and
                    > started
                    >
                    > > > using
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > local high yield varieties. Here is the summary of the
                    > process,
                    >
                    > > > followed by
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Sumant Kumar.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >- Daincha was grown for green manure- Two deep ploughings
                    > (One
                    >
                    > > > on May 1
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > and other June 16)- Two shallow ploughings (One on June 21 and
                    >
                    > > > June 29)-
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Puddling- Farm yard manure of 6 tons/hectre during land
                    >
                    > > > preparation-
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > 80Kg/ha DAP and 40Kg/ha potash- Urea 40Kg/ha- Poultry manure -
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > 400Kg/ha-Vermicompost - 100Kg/ha - Compound containing PSB -
                    >
                    > > > 40Kg/ha-
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > Micronutrient foliar spray - 25Kg/ha- No chemical weed
                    > control in
                    >
                    > > > the
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > field, weed control using cono weeder- 25cmx25cm spacing with
                    > one
                    >
                    > > > seedling
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > per hill - 16 plants/m2
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >I think, the heavy yield is a result of hybrid rice and all
                    > the
                    >
                    > > > manure
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > application and SRI method's benefits, so no point in talking
                    > to
                    >
                    > > > them and
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > my Hindi is not that good.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >What we would like to hear is about getting a reasonable
                    >
                    > > > consistent yield
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > and high quality rice using natural farming methods which can
                    > be
                    >
                    > > > reproduced
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > with some changes in different parts of the world.
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >Regards,Nandan
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >--- On Mon, 2/18/13, Jason Stewart macropneuma@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >From: Jason Stewart macropneuma@...>
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Digest Number 3043
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >To: "fukuoka_farming@..._farming@yahoogroups.com>
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >Date: Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:48 PM
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >> > > >Ye
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


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