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  • Michel Dussandier
    ... Hash: SHA1 Hello everybody! Since I m new to this list, let me introduce myself. I m french and software programmer who learned agriculture at school...
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 21, 2002
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      Hello everybody!

      Since I'm new to this list, let me introduce myself.
      I'm french and software programmer who learned
      agriculture at school... Personal ways and means are
      sometimes impredictable!

      I'm the author of the first french site praised.by
      Beatrice Gilboa. Merci à toi! ;-)

      My brother told me about Masanobu Fukuoka books
      few years ago. I've decided to make a page on him;
      while not being able to practice natural farming.

      Beside my work as a programmer, I pretend to be some
      sort of a philosopher ;-) The main point I'm interrested
      in is the critical approach of western science.

      I think that the method used by Mr Fukuoka is
      science at its best. The XXth century reductionism
      is only an aspect of science, a partial way to
      understand the world.

      Ecology, system sciences, transdisciplinarity must
      be the new "trend" in science. Including the reductionist
      knowledge, it must introduce relations, complexities,
      systems, etc.

      Well well.
      I hope my english was not that bad... ;-)

      Yours,
      Michel
      - ---
      Michel Dussandier http://ghanima.org
      It's more fun to cooperate!



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    • Robert Monie
      Hello Michel, Welcome! I agree that science has to start looking at the ways all things work together rather than getting buried deeper and deeper in how each
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 21, 2002
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        Hello Michel,
        Welcome! I agree that science has to start looking at the ways all things work together rather than getting buried deeper and deeper in how each thing works individually. It is, as you say, not only "more fun to cooperate"; it is also fun to watch things (plants, soil, water, microbes, insects) cooperate in the garden.
        Are you interested in the critiques of techne' and technology made by philosophers such as Jacques Ellul and Cornelius Castoriadis? As a programmer, what do you think of Ray Kurzweil's idea that we are about to enter the age of the "spiritual machine"?
        You should start growing something now! Try rocket (arugula), leeks, and flowering chives if nothing else. They are models of "cooperation" and you only need a few feet of soil to get them going. Once you see their little green heads thriving, you will want to grow more.
        Bob Monie
        Michel Dussandier <kralizec@...> wrote:-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
        Hash: SHA1

        Hello everybody!

        Since I'm new to this list, let me introduce myself.
        I'm french and software programmer who learned
        agriculture at school... Personal ways and means are
        sometimes impredictable!

        I'm the author of the first french site praised.by
        Beatrice Gilboa. Merci � toi! ;-)

        My brother told me about Masanobu Fukuoka books
        few years ago. I've decided to make a page on him;
        while not being able to practice natural farming.

        Beside my work as a programmer, I pretend to be some
        sort of a philosopher ;-) The main point I'm interrested
        in is the critical approach of western science.

        I think that the method used by Mr Fukuoka is
        science at its best. The XXth century reductionism
        is only an aspect of science, a partial way to
        understand the world.

        Ecology, system sciences, transdisciplinarity must
        be the new "trend" in science. Including the reductionist
        knowledge, it must introduce relations, complexities,
        systems, etc.

        Well well.
        I hope my english was not that bad... ;-)

        Yours,
        Michel
        - ---
        Michel Dussandier http://ghanima.org
        It's more fun to cooperate!



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      • Xavier Dequaire
        Hello Michel, me too: francais me too: computer professional (e-learning) me too: roots in the center of France ( Creuse) I apply Fukuoka and the likes
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 21, 2002
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          Hello Michel,

          me too: francais
          me too: computer professional (e-learning)
          me too: roots in the center of France ( Creuse)
          I apply Fukuoka and the likes approach, I am one of Ruth Stout's indolents...
          me too Philosophy explorer: these days taking a course on "enviromental
          values"
          my paper will be on ecosystem health, or the suiting of the health concept to
          ecosystems especially looking at soil and soil health

          If any body here has an idea of readings or inputs about soil health, (I guess
          it is a good forum for that!).
          The references/links in The Fukuoka Farming Website about bioremedication should
          give some good insights as well as all the ideas of soil vitality (Vitality = my
          concept of health)

          hope we can explore and help promote this alternative in France and in french...

          peace to all

          Xavier
          PS: my garden is on a small island in the fjord of Oslo, in Norway

          Michel Dussandier wrote:

          > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
          > Hash: SHA1
          >
          > Hello everybody!
          >
          > Since I'm new to this list, let me introduce myself.
          > I'm french and software programmer who learned
          > agriculture at school... Personal ways and means are
          > sometimes impredictable!
          >
          > I'm the author of the first french site praised.by
          > Beatrice Gilboa. Merci à toi! ;-)
          >
          > My brother told me about Masanobu Fukuoka books
          > few years ago. I've decided to make a page on him;
          > while not being able to practice natural farming.
          >
          > Beside my work as a programmer, I pretend to be some
          > sort of a philosopher ;-) The main point I'm interrested
          > in is the critical approach of western science.
          >
          > I think that the method used by Mr Fukuoka is
          > science at its best. The XXth century reductionism
          > is only an aspect of science, a partial way to
          > understand the world.
          >
          > Ecology, system sciences, transdisciplinarity must
          > be the new "trend" in science. Including the reductionist
          > knowledge, it must introduce relations, complexities,
          > systems, etc.
          >
          > Well well.
          > I hope my english was not that bad... ;-)
          >
          > Yours,
          > Michel
          > - ---
          > Michel Dussandier http://ghanima.org
          > It's more fun to cooperate!
          >
          > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
          > Version: idw's PGP-Frontend 4.8.9 / 8-2002 + PGP 7.X.X
          >
          > iQA/AwUBPdyYHgqrtMqbWjBoEQIoDACaAsAGLci4xpWsRUJF//CRoGomTrAAoN9C
          > LSGYnETRgyBA13vGKwVdH0VH
          > =677o
          > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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          For en bærekraftig samfunn
          XDi, X a v i e r D E Q U A I R E i n t e r a k t i v
          phone: (+47) 66 84 79 83
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          _____________________________________

          Do you wonder what your lifestyle implies for our common planet?
          Explore that at http://www.earthday.org/footprint/

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        • Larry Haftl
          Bonjour Xavier, ... (I guess ... (Vitality ... There is a free ebook at Steve Soloman s Online Soil and Health library that might help. It is by Krasilnikov, a
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 21, 2002
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            Bonjour Xavier,

            At Friday, 22 November 2002, you wrote:

            >If any body here has an idea of readings or inputs about soil health,
            (I guess
            >it is a good forum for that!).
            >The references/links in The Fukuoka Farming Website about bioremedication

            >should
            >give some good insights as well as all the ideas of soil vitality
            (Vitality
            >= my
            >concept of health)

            There is a free ebook at Steve Soloman's Online Soil and Health library
            that might help. It is by Krasilnikov, a Russian who did a lot of
            soil research in Russia in the 50s. Soloman says it's the most important
            book in his library, and after reading it I would agree with him.
            All about soil fertility, microorganisms, biological life of/in
            soil.

            The link is on the website, but here it is for easy access. Check
            in Agricultural library.

            http://www.soilandhealth.org/


            Larry Haftl
            larry@...
            http://larryhaftl.com/fukuoka
            http://FukuokaNaturalFarming.org
          • Michel Dussandier
            ... Hash: SHA1 Hello Bob, Hi list! ... I remember to have heard about Ancient Egyptian medicine. According to what the egyptologist said, a doctor, at the
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 23, 2002
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              Hello Bob, Hi list!

              On 21 Nov 2002 at 8:48, Robert Monie wrote:

              > Hello Michel,
              > Welcome! I agree that science has to start looking at the ways all
              > things work together rather than getting buried deeper and deeper in
              > how each thing works individually.

              I remember to have heard about Ancient Egyptian medicine.
              According to what the egyptologist said, a doctor, at the
              beginning of his career could only be a specialist.
              Only the many years of practice could entitle him to become
              a generalist. We're in the youth of western science. The point
              is: won't it desttroy us before it learns/grows enough?

              > It is, as you say, not only "more fun to cooperate";

              Like this one! ;-)

              > it is also fun to watch things (plants, soil,
              > water, microbes, insects) cooperate in the garden. Are you interested
              > in the critiques of techne' and technology made by philosophers such
              > as Jacques Ellul and Cornelius Castoriadis?

              I must acknowledge my lack of knowledge of Ellul work.
              I'm more accustomed with Castoriadis, re his views on
              democracy.

              > As a programmer, what do
              > you think of Ray Kurzweil's idea that we are about to enter the age of
              > the "spiritual machine"?

              I think it should be a good idea for me to read him! ;-)
              I'm used to the many views on machines and how they
              "interfere" with the world of flesh (Escaping Asimov's "I,
              Robot", visitinging the Butlerian Jihad of Frank Herbert,
              until the deadly Terminator - an excellent movie IMO)

              You can see that my background is more scifi
              than "official philosophers"... Frank Herbert, John
              Brunner, Philip K. Dick are also good sources!

              > You should start growing something now! Try
              > rocket (arugula), leeks, and flowering chives if nothing else. They
              > are models of "cooperation" and you only need a few feet of soil to
              > get them going. Once you see their little green heads thriving, you
              > will want to grow more.

              Thanks Bob. I live in the country, and tried here and there
              to do some sort of a natural farming of my own. It didn't give
              good results, but I didn't take enough care...

              Yours,

              Michel
              - ---
              Michel Dussandier http://ghanima.org
              It's more fun to cooperate!



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            • Michel Dussandier
              ... Hash: SHA1 Salut Xavier, Hello List. On 22 Nov 2002 at 0:44, Xavier Dequaire wrote: [...] ... There s a french book : Le sol, la terre et les champs by
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 23, 2002
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                Salut Xavier, Hello List.

                On 22 Nov 2002 at 0:44, Xavier Dequaire wrote:

                [...]
                > If any body here has an idea of readings or inputs about soil health,
                > (I guess it is a good forum for that!). The references/links in The
                > Fukuoka Farming Website about bioremedication should give some good
                > insights as well as all the ideas of soil vitality (Vitality = my
                > concept of health)

                There's a french book : "Le sol, la terre et les champs"
                by Claude Bourguignon (Ed. Sang de la Terre 1998).
                It doesn't provide specific data on soil's health
                but promotes "agrology". Don't know if this term
                have some sense out of France. Probably yes :
                rough definition is: "Agrology, ecological agriculture,
                stands on a precise perception of the complex
                relationships between soil, microbes, plants,
                animals and man".

                It doesn't go as "far" as Mr Fukuoka in his absence
                of work; but is a link between science (author is
                agricultural engineer) and... the Tao ?

                Yours,
                Michel
                - ---
                Michel Dussandier http://ghanima.org
                It's more fun to cooperate!



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              • Allan Balliett
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 24, 2002
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                  >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                  >Hash: SHA1
                  >
                  >Salut Xavier, Hello List.
                  >
                  >On 22 Nov 2002 at 0:44, Xavier Dequaire wrote:
                  >
                  >[...]
                  >> If any body here has an idea of readings or inputs about soil health,
                  >> (I guess it is a good forum for that!). The references/links in The
                  >> Fukuoka Farming Website about bioremedication should give some good
                  >> insights as well as all the ideas of soil vitality (Vitality = my
                  >> concept of health)
                  >
                  > There's a french book : "Le sol, la terre et les champs"
                  > by Claude Bourguignon (Ed. Sang de la Terre 1998).
                  > It doesn't provide specific data on soil's health
                  > but promotes "agrology". Don't know if this term
                  > have some sense out of France. Probably yes :
                  > rough definition is: "Agrology, ecological agriculture,
                  > stands on a precise perception of the complex
                  > relationships between soil, microbes, plants,
                  > animals and man".
                  >
                  > It doesn't go as "far" as Mr Fukuoka in his absence
                  > of work; but is a link between science (author is
                  > agricultural engineer) and... the Tao ?
                  >
                  >Yours,
                  >Michel
                  >- ---
                  >Michel Dussandier http://ghanima.org
                  > It's more fun to cooperate!
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >=88c3
                  >-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
                  >
                  >
                  >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  >fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Allan Balliett
                  is the Bourguignon book available in English? For insights into natural soil health management, check out the works of Ehrenfried Pfeiffer. For the most part,
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 24, 2002
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                    is the Bourguignon book available in English?

                    For insights into natural soil health management, check out the works
                    of Ehrenfried Pfeiffer. For the most part, they are avail from
                    www.ACRESUSA.com.

                    The ACRES USA conference is another place to not only receive
                    lectures on eco-ag, but to spend three (or more!) days in a miliu of
                    natural ag vendors and practitioners. I think they host the largest
                    eco-ag tradeshow in the world. The conference is around Dec 12 of
                    this year.

                    -Allan
                    Loudoun Co, VA
                  • Michel Dussandier
                    ... Hash: SHA1 Hello. ... No. I ve just asked the publisher (editeur@sangdelaterre.com) who is the owmer for all rights. If someone wishes to publish it... ...
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 25, 2002
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                      Hello.

                      On 24 Nov 2002 at 7:09, Allan Balliett asked:

                      > is the Bourguignon book available in English?

                      No. I've just asked the publisher (editeur@...)
                      who is the owmer for all rights. If someone wishes to
                      publish it...

                      ---
                      Michel Dussandier http://ghanima.org
                      It's more fun to cooperate!



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                    • Justin .
                      Here is a beautiful story for everyone, given me by a friend. Here is the story of Sepp Holzer s permaculture: Sepp Holzer is a common name in Austria. He is
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 10, 2002
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                        Here is a beautiful story for everyone, given me by a friend.

                        Here is the story of Sepp Holzer's permaculture:
                        Sepp Holzer is a common name in Austria. He is farming at the southwest
                        flanks of the alpine mountain range in an altitude of
                        1800 meters. This is not so common. He grows wheat, beans, peas,
                        apples, peaches, lemons and oranges. Peaches, lemons, and oranges?
                        The average year temperature at this altitude is 4,7�C,
                        the frost period starts in September and ends in April. The TV host
                        smiles politely, asking Holzer "did you yet try with banana farming?"
                        Holzer, a man of about 45, looks very much like one imagines an
                        alpine Austrian. Speaking in public is not one of his particular
                        talents. " I do not speak their language" he replies sternly.
                        Holzer has numerous "facts". He entertains visitors in a boarding
                        at his farm yard. A few readily testify that indeed Holzer's
                        oranges taste better than any one could buy elsewhere, but less sweet.
                        An analysis shows their content of vitamin C is five times
                        the content of Spanish oranges. No one had ever seen Holzer leaving
                        his home ground nor had anyone seen him at ordinary farm work. A film
                        shows how wild boars prepare the land for sowing. Holzer tosses some
                        mushrooms on the yard, let the wild boars loose, and they dig the
                        soil like mad. Then Holzer throws the seeds and let the pigs loose.
                        Visibly enchanted they are busy for hours trampling the sowed field
                        flat. " I could swear" says one guest "the pigs are aware of what
                        they are doing, but this is of course impossible". Gradually, non
                        spectacular and not at all esoteric Holzer unveils his secret.
                        "one can be of an orange tree's mind, and know, and reason all
                        at the same time. Certain plants mutually nourish each other, so
                        all I have to do is to be of an orange tree's mind then I know
                        which partner plants the tree wants. Some want big stones and rocks in
                        their neighborhood, so I get them there. Same I do with earthworms
                        and boars and pigs". The TV host does not smile anymore. " Are
                        you saying, then, all these trees and bushes and worms and pigs
                        are aware of themselves and know what they are doing?" Holzer is
                        puzzled. "Yes" he replies firmly. " The idea of animated, conscious
                        nature is a key element of early hunters and gatherers culture" explains
                        the TV host giving the impression that he knows what he is talking
                        about. " Are you a modern shaman?" " I am a farmer, what I
                        am doing is permaculture farming. I don't know what that means,
                        but I have to use this term in my tax declaration"

                        Based on ARTE TV.



                        Ha HA!
                        Justin.


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                      • ナカタ ヒデカズ
                        How do you do? For the first time ,I m writing this mail. I have read 3 mails 2-3days before. I m a japanese man,born at 1949,living in Yokohama city. I m
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 5, 2003
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                          How do you do?
                          For the first time ,I'm writing this mail.
                          I have read 3 mails 2-3days before.
                          I'm a japanese man,born at 1949,living in Yokohama city.
                          I'm interested in the planting in desert and natural farming.
                          My 1st purpose is understanding evryone's opinion or question,
                          2nd is the progress in English --- writing without dictionary.

                          Hi! Michiyo san and Norie san!
                          I'm able to read this ML at last.
                          See you next time,at Honnma or Tachikawa.
                        • Gloria C. Baikauskas
                          ... Welcome to our group! I could not read your name as it was in characters that did not spell anything in English. I am Gloria. I live in Texas in an area
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 6, 2003
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                            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "¥Ê¥«¥¿¡¡¥Ò¥Ç¥«¥º"
                            <hidesun7@m...> wrote:
                            > How do you do?
                            > For the first time ,I'm writing this mail.
                            > I have read 3 mails 2-3days before.
                            > I'm a japanese man,born at 1949,living in Yokohama city.
                            > I'm interested in the planting in desert and natural farming.
                            > My 1st purpose is understanding evryone's opinion or question,
                            > 2nd is the progress in English --- writing without dictionary.

                            Welcome to our group! I could not read your name as it was in
                            characters that did not spell anything in English. I am Gloria. I
                            live in Texas in an area that is usually dry and often very hot.
                            What I have found so far to be true is the need for trees to base all
                            plantings around, and among. This year I dug some swales also to see
                            if they might help keep the ground water available to my garden in
                            that area. So far it does seem to be the case.

                            The trees planted as potted plants seem to take years to grow large
                            enough, but the ones grown from seed grow amazingly fast as Fukuoka
                            san said they would. I have a two year old hackberry tree near my
                            house in its second year from seed that is as tall as my house. I am
                            not sure if this is just a very fast growing tree...or the fact that
                            it grew from seed. I am grateful to have it grow so quickly,
                            though.

                            Gloria, Texas
                          • debi
                            ... Just for the record: Gloria speaks from practical knowledge. What she says, you can believe, because she talks from what she has done, what she knows
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 6, 2003
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                              ---

                              Just for the record: Gloria speaks from practical knowledge. What she
                              says, you can believe, because she talks from what she has done, what
                              she knows first-hand. I know every time I listen to her ,and integrate
                              her suggestions into my practice, it has been a good move on my part.

                              She also has good manners, as shown by her taking the time to welcome
                              you. We all do, but Gloria was good enough to actually specify the
                              welcome, and the "Hello". <G>

                              Listen to the Lady. She's not afraid to ask practical questions, and
                              is happy to share practical answers.

                              deb


                              In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Gloria C. Baikauskas"
                              <gcb49@f...> wrote:

                              >
                              > The trees planted as potted plants seem to take years to grow large
                              > enough, but the ones grown from seed grow amazingly fast as Fukuoka
                              > san said they would. I have a two year old hackberry tree near my
                              > house in its second year from seed that is as tall as my house. I am
                              > not sure if this is just a very fast growing tree...or the fact that
                              > it grew from seed. I am grateful to have it grow so quickly,
                              > though.
                              >
                              > Gloria, Texas
                            • poppyandeve
                              Hi My name is Mark, I live in the UK. I enabled a book called the Harmonious Wheatsmith some years ago which dealt with Marc Bonfil s work - somewhat analagous
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 1, 2005
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                                Hi

                                My name is Mark, I live in the UK. I enabled a book called the Harmonious Wheatsmith
                                some years ago which dealt with Marc Bonfil's work - somewhat analagous to Fukuoka's
                                approach.

                                is the this the right place to discuss such work?

                                (I should go back through the archives and see but there is so much there that I hesitate to
                                begin. My apologies if this is all old hat!)
                              • Andres Rattur
                                Hello Mark! I haven t heard anything about Harmonious Wheatsmith, but I think that if it s connected somehow with nature-friendly farming or making things
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 1, 2005
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                                  Hello Mark!

                                  I haven't heard anything about Harmonious Wheatsmith, but I think that if
                                  it's connected somehow with nature-friendly farming or making things better
                                  in World, then it's welcome! Can you describe this book little more.

                                  With best whishes,
                                  Andres Rattur,
                                  Norway, Averöy!
                                • poppyandeve
                                  ... It details the method for growing wheat (and other European grains) in a permanent clover crop. The varieties suitable have a long T-sum and so can be
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 1, 2005
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                                    --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Andres Rattur" <Andre66@h...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Mark!
                                    >
                                    > I haven't heard anything about Harmonious Wheatsmith, but I think that if
                                    > it's connected somehow with nature-friendly farming or making things better
                                    > in World, then it's welcome! Can you describe this book little more.
                                    >
                                    > With best whishes,
                                    > Andres Rattur,
                                    > Norway, Averöy!
                                    >

                                    It details the method for growing wheat (and other 'European' grains) in a permanent
                                    clover crop. The varieties suitable have a long T-sum and so can be planted in mid
                                    summer to stand 14+ months in the field. up to winter they are tillering and in the new
                                    growing season they tiller more before giving the grain. The form is of bushes at one
                                    metre centres. The new crop is planted in amongst the growing bushes and the straw from
                                    the harvest is left to lie in the fields.

                                    This is all based on the work of Marc Bonfils, a French national.

                                    You can get the book from http://www.moodie.biz, or booksellers.
                                  • vaeltaja@reppu.net
                                    This method sounds good because of many tillers; you don t need to have many sprouting plants, because each survivor has time to tiller and space to make many
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 2, 2005
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                                      This method sounds good because of many tillers; you don't need to have many sprouting plants, because each survivor has time to tiller and space to make many ears.
                                      Do you know how much up north (or south) it has been used? I ask because for what I have learned, plants tiller much less when days are long. And here (60 degrees N) days are about 20 hours in summer, in sowing time. Risk is that you get only 10 or so tillers.
                                      How is the sowing done? I did some experiment this autumn, scattering rye and spelt seeds among grass-clover ley. Sprouts did come up, they had enough moisture even though they were not even pressed on the ground. It is possible though that in the summer there would not be enough moisture. I will be waiting next spring to see how the plants survive with clovers and grasses.
                                      Here is one link on Bonfils' method: http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/CPW_9.htm

                                      Karri


                                      > It details the method for growing wheat (and other 'European'
                                      > grains) in a
                                      > permanent
                                      > clover crop. The varieties suitable have a long T-sum and so can be
                                      > planted
                                      > in mid
                                      > summer to stand 14+ months in the field. up to winter they are tillering
                                      > and in the new
                                      > growing season they tiller more before giving the grain. The form is of
                                      > bushes at one
                                      > metre centres. The new crop is planted in amongst the growing bushes and
                                      > the straw from
                                      > the harvest is left to lie in the fields.
                                      >
                                      > This is all based on the work of Marc Bonfils, a French national.
                                      >
                                      > You can get the book from http://www.moodie.biz, or booksellers.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • poppyandeve
                                      ... sprouting plants, because each survivor has time to tiller and space to make many ears. ... have learned, plants tiller much less when days are long. And
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 3, 2005
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                                        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, vaeltaja@r... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > This method sounds good because of many tillers; you don't need to have many
                                        sprouting plants, because each survivor has time to tiller and space to make many ears.
                                        > Do you know how much up north (or south) it has been used? I ask because for what I
                                        have learned, plants tiller much less when days are long. And here (60 degrees N) days are
                                        about 20 hours in summer, in sowing time. Risk is that you get only 10 or so tillers.
                                        > How is the sowing done? I did some experiment this autumn, scattering rye and spelt
                                        seeds among grass-clover ley. Sprouts did come up, they had enough moisture even
                                        though they were not even pressed on the ground. It is possible though that in the
                                        summer there would not be enough moisture. I will be waiting next spring to see how the
                                        plants survive with clovers and grasses.
                                        > Here is one link on Bonfils' method: http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/CPW_9.htm
                                        >
                                        > Karri

                                        HI Karri

                                        We have one experiment at around 55?N - the N York moors of England. Marc Bonfils did
                                        his work in le Beauce france and worked in the Sahel although I do not know if he did the
                                        same wheat work. I suggest that you find a local grain which has not been crossed with a
                                        low T sum grain or spring wheat (most modern varieties are crosses with Noah). Is there a
                                        seed bank in your area? You may then find a good tillering variety.

                                        Seed sowing - well you can try the seed balls method of course. We only managed to get a
                                        very few seeds of the old varieties and we grew the using BD preparations as a seed soak
                                        and then started them as seedlings in pots since the option of losing the seeds was too
                                        hard to face. We have used a McConnel shakerator to rip on the contour and seeded into
                                        the path of the tynes but that wasn't very successful. It should be stressed that this is all
                                        still experimental so please don't hinder your creativity because of past successes or
                                        failures.

                                        I think one of the strngths of the method is its resistance to drought. The roots go deep
                                        deep deep. The farmer int he N York moors have just had some protein testing on two
                                        varieties - 14% ! (This is high as Canadian bread wheats in an area where it is a good year
                                        to get 10% by normal techniques). The farm is biodynamic.

                                        Mark
                                      • poppyandeve
                                        ... Yes, I forgot ot mention that this is one of the source documents for the Harmonious wheatsmith Thanks Eric van Essche - and Karri Mark
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 3, 2005
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                                          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, vaeltaja@r... wrote:

                                          > Here is one link on Bonfils' method: http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/CPW_9.htm
                                          >
                                          > Karri


                                          Yes, I forgot ot mention that this is one of the source documents for the Harmonious
                                          wheatsmith

                                          Thanks Eric van Essche - and Karri

                                          Mark
                                        • Anders Skarlind
                                          Hello Karri where are you situated? I consider making a similar experiment here. Just didn t have enough time this autumn. I sofar know noone who successfully
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 3, 2005
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                                            Hello Karri
                                            where are you situated?
                                            I consider making a similar experiment here. Just didn't have enough time
                                            this autumn.
                                            I sofar know noone who successfully applied Fukuoka's methods /or similar
                                            methods) far north, but I would like to know.
                                            Anders in Sweden 16E 59N

                                            At 19:15 2005-11-02, you wrote:
                                            >This method sounds good because of many tillers; you don't need to have
                                            >many sprouting plants, because each survivor has time to tiller and space
                                            >to make many ears.
                                            >Do you know how much up north (or south) it has been used? I ask because
                                            >for what I have learned, plants tiller much less when days are long. And
                                            >here (60 degrees N) days are about 20 hours in summer, in sowing time.
                                            >Risk is that you get only 10 or so tillers.
                                            >How is the sowing done? I did some experiment this autumn, scattering rye
                                            >and spelt seeds among grass-clover ley. Sprouts did come up, they had
                                            >enough moisture even though they were not even pressed on the ground. It
                                            >is possible though that in the summer there would not be enough
                                            >moisture. I will be waiting next spring to see how the plants survive
                                            >with clovers and grasses.
                                            >Here is one link on Bonfils' method: http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/CPW_9.htm
                                            >
                                            >Karri
                                          • vaeltaja@reppu.net
                                            ... I m in Finland, some 50 km from the south coast. ... I don t know either anybody using Fukuoka s methods. But, using more conventional methods, some
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Nov 3, 2005
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                                              Anders Skarlind kirjoitti 03.11.2005 kello 15:31:
                                              > Hello Karri
                                              > where are you situated?

                                              I'm in Finland, some 50 km from the south coast.

                                              > I consider making a similar experiment here. Just didn't have enough
                                              > time
                                              > this autumn.
                                              > I sofar know noone who successfully applied Fukuoka's methods /or
                                              > similar
                                              > methods) far north, but I would like to know.
                                              > Anders in Sweden 16E 59N

                                              I don't know either anybody using Fukuoka's methods. But, using more conventional methods, some experiments have been done using direct seeding machines, sowing direct to ley. Two summers ago one organic farmer did sow summer wheat to growing ley, cutting it right before sowing. He did get something to tresh, but clover did grow through pretty badly. I don't know what happened this summer.

                                              Karri
                                            • Anders Skarlind
                                              Karri, I suppose Midsummer rye (Midsommarråg) is a suitable rye variety. It is adapted to sowing around midsummer, being grazed or mowed the first year to not
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Nov 3, 2005
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                                                Karri,
                                                I suppose Midsummer rye (Midsommarråg) is a suitable rye variety. It is
                                                adapted to sowing around midsummer, being grazed or mowed the first year to
                                                not get too vigorous, and mounts the second year. It fits Eric van Esche's
                                                description of a suitable variety I think.

                                                Mark, what is T sum?

                                                Anders

                                                At 10:00 2005-11-03, you wrote:
                                                >I suggest that you find a local grain which has not been crossed with a
                                                >low T sum grain or spring wheat (most modern varieties are crosses with
                                                >Noah). Is there a
                                                >seed bank in your area? You may then find a good tillering variety.
                                              • rajutitus lal
                                                Seed bals can solve youer problem.Mix so many seeds with clay andmake Balls of half inch dia and scatter here and there even befre season.-Raju and Shalini
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                                  Seed bals can solve youer problem.Mix so many seeds with clay andmake Balls of half inch dia and scatter here and there even befre season.-Raju and Shalini

                                                  Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@...> wrote:Hello Karri
                                                  where are you situated?
                                                  I consider making a similar experiment here. Just didn't have enough time
                                                  this autumn.
                                                  I sofar know noone who successfully applied Fukuoka's methods /or similar
                                                  methods) far north, but I would like to know.
                                                  Anders in Sweden 16E 59N

                                                  At 19:15 2005-11-02, you wrote:
                                                  >This method sounds good because of many tillers; you don't need to have
                                                  >many sprouting plants, because each survivor has time to tiller and space
                                                  >to make many ears.
                                                  >Do you know how much up north (or south) it has been used? I ask because
                                                  >for what I have learned, plants tiller much less when days are long. And
                                                  >here (60 degrees N) days are about 20 hours in summer, in sowing time.
                                                  >Risk is that you get only 10 or so tillers.
                                                  >How is the sowing done? I did some experiment this autumn, scattering rye
                                                  >and spelt seeds among grass-clover ley. Sprouts did come up, they had
                                                  >enough moisture even though they were not even pressed on the ground. It
                                                  >is possible though that in the summer there would not be enough
                                                  >moisture. I will be waiting next spring to see how the plants survive
                                                  >with clovers and grasses.
                                                  >Here is one link on Bonfils' method: http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/CPW_9.htm
                                                  >
                                                  >Karri




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                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • vaeltaja@reppu.net
                                                  I haven t thought the variety thing much. Midsummer rye might be suitable, as Anders said, and there is some variation in our local winter wheat varieties in
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                                    I haven't thought the variety thing much. Midsummer rye might be suitable, as Anders said, and there is some variation in our local winter wheat varieties in that how easily they start heading on the seeding year, but I have to search for information about their tillering capasity.
                                                    I have been too lazy making seedballs, and since I aim at sowing of 10+ hectares, I have thought it unpractical to make even thousand(s) kgs seedballs. On the other hand, if it is possible to come down to 1/10th or less in seed amount, maybe then...
                                                    Karri

                                                    > I suggest that you find a local grain which has not
                                                    > been
                                                    > crossed with a
                                                    > low T sum grain or spring wheat (most modern varieties are crosses with
                                                    > Noah). Is there a
                                                    > seed bank in your area? You may then find a good tillering variety.
                                                    >
                                                    > Seed sowing - well you can try the seed balls method of course. We only
                                                  • abi
                                                    Hey all, my name is abhi, this is my first post to the group so i think i ll just intro myself. I am an Indian student in Toronto, Canada. I have done much
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
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                                                      Hey all,

                                                      my name is abhi, this is my first post to the group so i think i'll
                                                      just intro myself.

                                                      I am an Indian student in Toronto, Canada. I have done much soul
                                                      searching in terms of self-awareness and harmonious living in recent
                                                      years and Fukuoka's words on farming truly appeal to me. I have no
                                                      previous farming experience so I have joined the community garden on
                                                      campus and have volunteered at many farms surrounding Toronto on top
                                                      of my personal research.

                                                      my intent for the future is to move to Boulder, Colorado and begin my
                                                      practice of natural farming on a small plot and take life as it comes
                                                      from there.

                                                      My hope is to gain (and share) as much as possible to the community's
                                                      knowledge.

                                                      With love,
                                                      ~abhi
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