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white clover

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  • jamie nicol
    PLOWB0Y: Are you telling us to abandon all logical reasoning? FUKUOKA: Yes! PLOWBOY: But Mr. Fukuoka, you did a lot of experimenting and research yourself in
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 8, 2002
      PLOWB0Y: Are you telling us to abandon all logical reasoning?

      FUKUOKA: Yes!

      PLOWBOY: But Mr. Fukuoka, you did a lot of experimenting and research
      yourself in the process of developing the concept of natural farming. You
      used reason... and now you are telling us to discard it all?

      FUKUOKA: Exactly! Throw away your own ideas for a moment and let the results
      of my experiments be the Seed of some new ideas and ways of thinking. Many
      people might be tempted to think, "Hmmm... my climate is totally unlike his,
      so rather than use white clover, I'll try this other ground cover." That
      line of reasoning could well take you off the track and lead you down a lot
      of blind alleys! Clover is necessary to keep the weeds back and replenish
      the soil.

      PLOWBOY: But there are many kinds of clover that could be used, aren't
      there?

      FUKUOKA: Ah, you see? That's exactly what I mean. That's your reason
      speaking! Don't question so much. If I suggest white clover, use white
      clover. If I suggest red clover, then use red clover. Over the years I've
      tried vetch, alfalfa, lupine, trefoil, and many kinds of clover... and I
      reached the conclusion that for natural no-till rotation of grains and
      vegetables, and as a ground cover in the orchard, white clover is best.
      My findings have been verified by others, too. When I visited Rodale's
      Organic Farming Research Center in Pennsylvania recently, the people there
      showed me the experiments they've been doing for several years in
      interplanting grains and row crops with clover and other ground covers. And
      you know, the plots where they were having the greatest success were the
      ones in which they were using white clover!

      PLOWBOY: In the Pacific Northwest, there's a network of organic farmers and
      gardeners called Tilth. They've started a "clover project" in which members
      in Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and British Columbia plant various types of
      clover in barley and corn fields, apple orchards, and vegetable gardens...
      all to gain experience with that cover crop. Don't you think that sort of
      experimentation is worthwhile?

      FUKUOKA: Well, yes, it's fine... but the results are already here and
      available right in front of us! I did those kinds of experiments 25 years
      ago, and now others could benefit from my experience if only they'd look at
      the results. They could save themselves a lot of time and effort by just
      taking the shortcut of believing.
      Americans, I think, find it difficult to believe. They have to experiment
      and see for themselves. But believing is the most direct approach.


      I just bought some white clover!

      However, be careful with this section. On re-reading this is not a
      Mollisonesque attempt to have permaculturalists follow his exact teachings
      as laid down in the Design Manual. In fact, the passage turns on these
      words;


      Throw away your own ideas for a moment and let the results of my experiments
      be the Seed of some new ideas and ways of thinking.


      Fukuoka is inviting discovery and offering his lifetime's work as our
      launching pad. The best permaculturalism invites this same openness to
      discovery through harkening to nature. The worst of Permaculture is an
      interventionist, rule based, technology inspired bastard newly whelped from
      the bitch of conventional agriculture.

      I like Heidegger's desire to "Let beings be". In similar vein, it might be
      worth recalling a line of Wittgenstein (not 'Philosophy is not a theory but
      an activity', though this is something always worth keeping alive, but,);
      "My propositions are elucidatory in this way: he who understands me finally
      recognizes them as senseless, when he has climbed out through them, on them,
      over them. (He must so to speak throw away the ladder, after he has climbed
      up on it."


      Jamie
      Souscayrous
    • Robin, Maya, or Napi
      Good Spring, Having a big time finding the white clover seed, for about 3 acres. Have looked into some of the seed sources from the Fukuoka site, not yet all.
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 6, 2003
        Good Spring,
        Having a big time finding the white clover seed, for about 3
        acres. Have looked into some of the seed sources from the
        Fukuoka site, not yet all. Some, such as WildSeed Farms, have
        other clovers, but not the white. Our local Southern States Farm
        Cooperative said that everything out there is hybrid GMO. It was
        vexing to hear the resignation in the farm profession, but is it
        true? Has anyone already found which of the seed companies does
        carry the white clover? What might be the next best choice for
        the park meadow? Whatever we use must remain low-ish in its
        growth habit, or the park service will come & roar that mower at
        us. We will happily co-exist with the honey bees, if we are
        lucky enough to have any honey bees still out there.
        Green times ahead,
        Napi
      • Edgard Swinnen
        Hello Napi, White clover (+ other varieties) carried by (but currently not available): Peaceful Valley Farm Supply
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 7, 2003
          Hello Napi,

          White clover (+ other varieties) carried by (but currently not available):
          Peaceful Valley Farm Supply http://www.groworganic.com/a/item_SCL316.html

          Hope they can help you,

          Edgard

          ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
          Van: "Robin, Maya, or Napi" <seafloorgarden@...>
          Aan: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
          Verzonden: Monday, April 07, 2003 7:01 AM
          Onderwerp: [fukuoka_farming] white clover


          > Good Spring,
          > Having a big time finding the white clover seed, for about 3
          > acres. Have looked into some of the seed sources from the
          > Fukuoka site, not yet all. Some, such as WildSeed Farms, have
          > other clovers, but not the white. Our local Southern States Farm
          > Cooperative said that everything out there is hybrid GMO. It was
          > vexing to hear the resignation in the farm profession, but is it
          > true? Has anyone already found which of the seed companies does
          > carry the white clover? What might be the next best choice for
          > the park meadow? Whatever we use must remain low-ish in its
          > growth habit, or the park service will come & roar that mower at
          > us. We will happily co-exist with the honey bees, if we are
          > lucky enough to have any honey bees still out there.
          > Green times ahead,
          > Napi
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Larry Haftl
          Hi Napi, ... Territorial Seed sells New Zealand White Clover. Recommends 6-10lbs/acre. Cost is $46.75/10 lbs, $97.75/25 lbs, and $170.25/50 lbs. Plus shipping
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 7, 2003
            Hi Napi,

            > Having a big time finding the white clover seed, for about 3
            > acres.

            Territorial Seed sells New Zealand White Clover. Recommends 6-10lbs/acre.
            Cost is $46.75/10 lbs, $97.75/25 lbs, and $170.25/50 lbs. Plus shipping from
            Oregon. Website is
            http://www.territorialseed.com

            They recommend it usually for fall rather than spring sowing, but can be
            used for a spring cover crop. I've got a lot of it growing here. Never gets
            more than about 8" high, usually more like 4-6". Supposed to tolerate
            drought and wider range of soils than Dutch White Clover. Really neat stuff,
            but best sown on bare ground as it takes time for it to displace other
            grasses and weeds. This clover is perennial. If you want an annual then
            Medic Mix Clover or Subterranean Clover might work. Both are relatively low
            growing and drought-tolerant, do well in poor soild. Costs about the same
            per pound as the White Clover, but you need more per acre - 15 lbs/acre for
            the Medic Mix and 20-30 lbs/acre for the subterranean. Territorial carries
            all three and usually have all of them in stock. Medic Mix is supposed to be
            a real weed snuffer, but I don't know for sure.

            Larry Haftl
            larry@...
            http://LarryHaftl.com
            http://FukuokaFarmingOL.net
          • sethwai
            Napi, You can try Johnny s selected seeds http://www.johnnyseeds.com and Fedco Seeds http://www.fedcoseeds.com Lew
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 7, 2003
              Napi,

              You can try Johnny's selected seeds
              http://www.johnnyseeds.com


              and Fedco Seeds
              http://www.fedcoseeds.com



              Lew
            • Robert Monie
              Hi Everybody, New Zealand White Clover is the kind Fukuoka prefers, and Territorial, Peaceful Valley, and Johnny s all sell it, just as our members have said.
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 7, 2003
                Hi Everybody,
                New Zealand White Clover is the kind Fukuoka prefers, and Territorial, Peaceful Valley, and Johnny's all sell it, just as our members have said. But John Jeavons goes even further; in his Bountiful Gardens/Ecology Action catalog he explicitly advertises that his New Zealand White Clover is the kind used and recommended by Fukuoka. Under "Trifolium repens" he says "a medium-high growing clover. Fukuoka's favorite cover crop in One-Straw Revolution. Likes moist soil."
                Try http://www.bountifulgardens.com
                Bob Monie--knee-deep in wild onions--Southeast Louisiana

                sethwai <sethwai@...> wrote: Napi,

                You can try Johnny's selected seeds
                http://www.johnnyseeds.com


                and Fedco Seeds
                http://www.fedcoseeds.com



                Lew


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