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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Almond Tree ... planting in grass

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  • Jason Stewart
    Yahoo groups info technology software coding imperfections, corrupting URLs all the time, so a painstaking work-around: - http://www.amazon.co.jp/
    Message 1 of 26 , May 4, 2012
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      Yahoo groups info technology software coding imperfections, corrupting URLs all the time,
      so a painstaking work-around:
      -> http://www.amazon.co.jp/
      神と自然と人の革命―わら一本の革命-総括編-福岡-正信
      /dp/4938743019

      <please put the above URL pieces, broken up systematically by me, back together again without any spaces in your browser address bar and click ENTER.>
      Or if that doesn't work, again, try these:

      -> http://www.amazon.co.jp/%e7%a6%8f%e5%b2%a1-%e6%ad%a3%e4%bf%a1/e/B004KWOID4
      --and look for the 1992 book down the list.

      -> http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/images/4938743019/ref=dp_image_0/378-6965085-5356145?ie=UTF8&n=465392&s=books
      -> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eOeCiDUOL._SL500_.jpg
      --for merely the picture of the front cover of the book.

      Google groups don't seem to have those stupid IT code problems.
      i know this, as i also work in money jobs in IT. i reckon their IT coding standards for Yahoo Group must be pretty poor, compared to Google with its groups. Everyone knows Google makes lots more money nowadays and Yahoo has been struggling financially, so no offence to any Yahoo workers. ...blah blah blah...

      On 05/05/2012, at 4:01 PM, Jason Stewart wrote:

      > Dear friend Nandan,
      >
      > This is available in various of late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's sources of ways of nature farming,
      > books, as per one further below,
      > one or more of his seed balling videos (1 in Greece, 1 in Japan available on YouTube)
      > and his recognised apprentices' publications quote his best sources sometimes,
      > as per Panos Manikis (Greece) 's excellent, beautifully presented, and readily, freely accessible:
      >
      > NATURAL FARMING
      > Clay pellets to grow agro food products and revegetate deserts, mountains and wastelands
      > JAPAN AND GREECE
      > By Panos Manikis
      > -> http://www.ideassonline.org/public/pdf/Natural_Farming_Fukuoka_Panos_Manikis_ideassonline.pdf
      > (1MB document download)
      > IDEASS (ONLINE)
      > Innovation for Development and South-South Cooperation
      >
      > It's a pity that Panos Manikis website in Greece is down these days, at least for me to see.
      >
      > Brief quotation of original book,
      > acceptable in respecting late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's copyright:
      > "
      > B. Aerial Seeding Using Clay Pellets
      >
      > Making multi-layered clay seed pellets with bittern for use in desert revegetation
      >
      > Purpose
      > The clay seed pellet was conceived and development for direct seeding of rice, barley, and vegetables, in conjunction with the no-till method, but it has since come into wide use. Particularly in cases where it has been put to use in savannas in foreign countries, the defects became apparent, improvements were made, and it has developed into an especially suitable method for aerial seeding for the purpose of revegetating large areas of desert at one time.
      > Materials
      > (1) Seeds of over 100 varieties (trees, fruit trees, vegetables, grains, useful fungi). Ten percent of combined weight.
      > (2) Fine powdered clay such as that used for fired bricks or porcelain. In general this should make up five times the weight of the seeds, but the amount of seeds should be taken into consideration. Fifty percent of the combined weight.
      > (3) ...
      > ...
      > "
      > From:
      >
      > 1996
      > "The Ultimatium* of God Nature - The One-Straw Revolution - A Recapitulation"
      > (English translation)
      > An extremely limited edition, less than 100 copies, no ISBN.
      > -- his own commissioned translation to English, done in Japan, (not translated by Chris Pearce nor Larry Korn).
      > i would love to know them, but i still haven't found out the name of the Japanese person (as i understand it) who's the 'connoisseur' translator of the words meanings into English of this, albeit unpublished, only printed, and not at all beautifully presented, formatted soft cover book.
      > Printed by him, hence the publisher name is, quoting: "S h o u S h i n S ha (小心舎)".
      > *[sic:] Ultimatium presumably should be spelled Ultimatum, unless it is a newly coined word perhaps meaning something like a combination of Ultimatum+Revolution.
      >
      > So, his original Japanese book, it's a translation of, is:
      >
      > -> http://www.amazon.co.jp/%e7%a5%9e%e3%81%a8%e8%87%aa%e7%84%b6%e3%81%a8%e4%ba%ba%e3%81%ae%e9%9d%a9%e5%91%bd%e2%80%95%e3%82%8f%e3%82%89%e4%b8%80%e6%9c%ac%e3%81%ae%e9%9d%a9%e5%91%bd-%e7%b7%8f%e6%8b%ac%e7%b7%a8-%e7%a6%8f%e5%b2%a1-%e6%ad%a3%e4%bf%a1/dp/4938743019
      >
      > 1992 (Japanese)
      > わら一本の革命・総括編「神と自然と人の革命」
      > (wara ippon no kakumei・sōkatsuhen「kami to shizen to hito no kakumei」)
      > Title, a literal translation by me: [Straw: One--Strand's Revolution・Recapitulation 'Universal God/Spirit and Spontaneity/Nature and Humanity Revolution']
      > Self-published in 1992 Dec. by 自然樹園 (小心舎) (Shizen Juen (Shou Shin Sha); one of Fukuoka Masanobu's own self--publishing publisher--names)
      > 230p 26×27cm,
      > out of print, available secondhand from Japan.
      > ISBN 978-4-938743-01-7.
      >
      >
      > Having been drawn into writing of the subject of karma today,
      > Jamie Nicol breaches late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's copyright by having scanned all of:
      > "The Ultimatium of God Nature - The One-Straw Revolution - A Recapitulation"
      > ---he told me he did without permission---and online quoting large slabs this special book, here:
      > -> http://seedzen.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/seedballing-deserts/
      > Worry for Jamie---i do say.
      >
      > As we all are, most of all me, Jamie is far from perfect,
      > in his blog writings in this post he is mistaken that it was late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's last book.
      >
      > In fact it was late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's own personally commissioned English translation done in Japan before 1996 of his 1992 Japanese book---Michiyo Shibuya, provider of it to us, told us this background of the book, here in this group many years ago.
      >
      > In fact his last book is a Japanese April 2010 Shunjusha published book of his Japanese 2001 self-published book, which is a completely new book from this 1992 Japanese book.
      > From his first book in 1947, through his many new books around the 1970s, he has always, cross referenced and extensively re-used sections of his earlier books, papers and newspaper writings. There's only so much to say on the subject, so said well once, is better re-used than trying to say it again. Sometimes people have mistaken this for merely revisions editions of earlier editions, but his are not works of gimmicky, novelty, piecemeal science and not works of fiction. His works are his wholistic points of view and messages of the evidences, scholarly presented in the original Japanese editions, and so naturally for wholistic points must repeat the same messages in new books as in completely different older books, as well as in those true revised and updated editions of his books his did many of with Shunjusha publishers through until 2005. eg. The One--Straw Revolution original Japanese was last published in its second updated and revised edition in 2004, not in 1975. Meanwhile the 2009 English translation carries none of the updated and revised Japanese editions new information except the 1986 update's one page afterword.
      >
      > And in fact,
      > his last truly entirely new creation (publication) is:
      > Iroha Revolutionary Verses
      > (songs, information booklet, photographs, 'calligraphy' drawings)
      >
      >
      > Jason Stewart
      > --currently in Cairns, Bama country, The Wet Tropics of far north Queensland.
      > --Openly accepting of (my) membership of, my part within, nature.
      >
      > On 05/05/2012, at 2:34 PM, Nandan Palaparambil wrote:
      >
      >> Hi Jason,
      >>
      >> >Late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei was emphatically clear that it is necessary to sow approximately 100 or >so of the widest possible diversity of kinds of seed plant species appropriate for local conditions.
      >>
      >> Can you please give which book refers the above sentence? This looks to be quite meaningful, but would like to read about this/
      >>
      >> Regards,
      >> Nandan
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ivana Balazevic-Fisher
      HI I can see that the word plough has caught people s imagination.  Perhaps understandably.  Still, can anybody report their experiences with seedballs
      Message 2 of 26 , May 5, 2012
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        HI

        I can see that the word plough has caught people's imagination.  Perhaps understandably.  Still, can anybody report their experiences with seedballs scattered into the long matted grass?  We have had a couple of people report their lack of success, but nobody reporting a success yet since this discussion started. 

        Fukuoka did use meausres to control weeds growing in his rice fields (scattering straw, flooding the field briefly, white clover etc), so to my mind it would mean that some weed control may indeed be necessary (it is not a do nothing farming, despite its name in english translation) .  Other than that, he did not start from a thick matter grass field (as far as I know), but from fields that were cultivated by his family before, so he wasn't in a position to have to work out what to do about that.  I am sure that he would have worked it out, had he been in need of it. 

        There is one passage somewhere in the One Straw Revolution that I particularly like, that says roughly
        that only to those who stand where barley stands the barley will reveal its
        secrets. 



        If you were a barley grain (or any other), thrown onto a thick matted grass, what would you do?  Try to stand where it stands and listen to what it says.



        Best regards

        Ivana
         

        --- On Sat, 5/5/12, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:

        From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Almond Tree ... planting in grass
        To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com" <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Saturday, May 5, 2012, 6:35 AM








         









        Hi,



        In the chapter 'Farming among weeds', these statements are given..



        "In making the transition to this kind of farming, some weeding,composting or pruning may be necessary at first, but these measures should be gradually reduced each year. Ultimately, it is not the growing technique which is the most important factor, but rather the state of mind of the farmer."..



        Here plowing  is left out, so it looks like Fukuoka san was suggesting to avoid plowing altogether ??



        Recently read some portions of 'Fertility farming' by Newman turner which talks about experiences of no-till farming and how it gives results after properly building up the soil. These experiments happened in 1940's. There is a mention of 'Plowmans folly' in this book.



        This is available online - just search 'Fertility Farming'



        Regards,

        Nandan



        ________________________________

        From: Jason Wicker <jaywicker@...>

        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 4:47 AM

        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Almond Tree ... planting in grass





         

        Hello,

        I remember Master Fukuoka saying in one of his books that you may need to

        plow one last time to get things started. Once the process begins than the

        labor of plowing is over for good and you can enjoy nature and take a nap

        next year instead of turning the soil:)

        Jason from NJ



        On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:55 PM, John Kintree <jkintree@...> wrote:



        > **

        >

        >

        > We have almost a quarter acre of a back yard, mostly covered with grass

        > growing in extremely clay soil, for the house to which we moved about a

        > year ago. A month ago, I broadcast a mix of clover (5 lbs), birdsfoot

        > trefoil (2 lbs), and alfalfa (3 lbs) seeds across the grass. The seeds

        > cost about $84, including shipping and delivery. A day or two after

        > broadcasting the seeds, I mowed the grass. It rained several times in the

        > next few days; almost ideal conditions. Nothing came up. I think the

        > roots of the grass are just too dense and matted for much of anything else

        > get through to the soil.

        >

        > A couple of weeks after that, I got out my shovel, turned over the soil in

        > several 3 to 4 feet diameter patches around the yard, scattered clover

        > seeds ($5 for 1 lb from a local nursery) over these patches, and within a

        > week, had clover sprouting. It's looking pretty good by now.

        >

        > To test things more thoroughly, I spent another $32 to have 1 lb each of

        > the clover, birdsfoot trefoil, and alfalfa shipped from the original

        > supplier. Turned the soil in a number of patches around the yard,

        > scattered the seeds over those patches, and just one week later, I have

        > plants of all three types of seeds sprouting through the soil. I'm sure

        > Fukuoka-san was correct in his situation. In a different situation,

        > different methods might be needed.

        >

        > BTW, the purpose for growing green manure crops is to improve the soil

        > before planting nut and fruit trees maybe later this year or next spring.

        > Regards,

        > John Kintree

        >

        > --- On Thu, 5/3/12, Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...> wrote:

        >

        > From: Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...>

        > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Almond Tree and Apricot Tree nuts

        > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

        > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 4:32 PM

        >

        >

        >

        > Dear friends,

        >

        > I must thank Jason for taking time out from his busy schedule to post a

        >

        > comprehensive answer that is an eye opener.

        >

        > Kostas, thanks for the encouraging words. However as Jason said in his

        >

        > post the land is used to getting mowed and the roots of the grasses are

        >

        > matted. There are dandelions and clover and I think what is called

        >

        > plantain with long forked roots, but all the available empty space is

        >

        > covered with thick vegetation. I have so much green stuff that I wonder if

        >

        > the domesticated vegetable seeds stand a chance in the tall grass.

        >

        > Right now it looks so discouraging with all the right natural plants in

        >

        > what my formatted mind says is the wrong place for them.

        >

        > To think I have been looking forward to savoring some easy succes...alas!

        >

        > do-nothing agriculture doesn't turn out to be so simple.

        >

        > Jason recommended scything. I chopped off the tallest tops this p.m.

        >

        > ...after having found one of the last persons with a scythe in my

        >

        > neighborhood. Of course I could not see the seedballs so I must have

        >

        > trampled a number of them.

        >

        > Seems like natural farming is a tall order in an urban setting.

        >

        > It's nice to read Fukuoka sensei and dream.

        >

        > It is quite another thing to actually do what he did.

        >

        > Well...it took him years to actually succeed in applying to agriculture

        >

        > what he saw in a flash.

        >

        > Looks like I'm in for a long wait.

        >

        > Friends, I need your help to go on with this.

        >

        > I'm arguing with my husband, he says I should have scraped the land off the

        >

        > thick vegetation before planting the clover, but I said natural farming

        >

        > does no such thing. Maybe I should have followed his advice.

        >

        > What say you???

        >

        > best

        >

        > RUTHIE

        >

        > 2012/5/4 KONSTANTINOS <karoubas@...>

        >

        > > **

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > Hi Ruth,

        >

        > > and congratulations on your project.

        >

        > > I have a few questions.

        >

        > > The weeds growing, you said are knee high - are they strong and heavy

        >

        > > (closely spaced) - in other words do you have a lot of biomass, or are

        > they

        >

        > > far apart - does the sun dry out the soil or is it well protected by the

        >

        > > "weeds"

        >

        > >

        >

        > > If you have good soil, full of organic material and "life" you will have

        >

        > > success. Do as our good friend Raju suggests - spread seed balls or

        > direct

        >

        > > seed and then level the weeds with an angle iron, then water well.

        >

        > >

        >

        > > Kostas

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@

        > ...>

        >

        > > wrote:

        >

        > > >

        >

        > > > Hello Jason, hello all,

        >

        > > > Thank you for your encouragement, Jason.

        >

        > > > Now here's a question.

        >

        > > > For the first time this Spring I have thrown seed balls in what can be

        >

        > > > called a "big" urban lot of 300 square meters formerly cut grass area,

        > as

        >

        > > > opposed to last year's manageable 30 square meters of relatively

        >

        > > weed-free

        >

        > > > vegetable plot.

        >

        > > > Two weeks after the sowing the rains came and did not stop for another

        >

        > > two

        >

        > > > weeks. Day and night temperatures did not exceed 8°C.

        >

        > > > Now the rains have stopped and the night temperature is still around

        > 5°C

        >

        > > > while the day temperature is around 20°C, since yesterday.

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > My question is, what happens now that the weeds are knee high and the

        >

        > > > seedballs not all sprouted except for the radishes?

        >

        > > > There is a mixture of all kinds of seeds of common vegetables, and

        > adzuki

        >

        > > > (a first, I don't even know how it's cooked).

        >

        > > > Will the future sprouted seeds not choke in the tall grass?

        >

        > > > I still have to plant more tomaotes, plus some eggplants and melons,

        >

        > > > lentils, white beans, corn, and a pinch each of grains I was given

        >

        > > during a

        >

        > > > farm visit last Sunday.

        >

        > > > In my region all danger of frost is gone about mid-May.

        >

        > > > Do I cut the weeds, in doing so I will be stepping on the seedballs and

        >

        > > > seedlings?

        >

        > > > Please advise.

        >

        > > > Best

        >

        > > > RUTHIE

        >

        > > >

        >

        > > >

        >

        > > >

        >

        > > > 2012/5/3 Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>

        >

        > >

        >

        > > >

        >

        > > > > Thanks friend Kostas, very much, for motivating words.

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > i suppose you will be pleased to know that i also have many plants

        >

        > > > > directed seeded.

        >

        > > > > In Melbourne from my previous lifeóstarted 25 years agoódoing

        >

        > > ecological

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > restoration in bushlands.

        >

        > > > > And in my nature farm with fruit trees and vegetables, since my late

        >

        > > > > father farmed it from 25 years ago, and many more direct seedings

        >

        > > since i

        >

        > > > > farmed it from 12 years ago, after my father died.

        >

        > > > > In my nature farm my Avocado trees are allóevery single oneódirect

        >

        > > seeded

        >

        > > > > only, and the two oldest ones are now about 9ñ10 foot too,

        >

        > > coincidently

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > with yours.

        >

        > > > > And yes, Apricots do well, some direct seeded and/or self seeded,

        > now 5

        >

        > > > > years old and already about 20 foot high but still thin growing

        > amongst

        >

        > > > > taller natural Acacia mearnsii trees,

        >

        > > > > there in far eastern Victoria, S.E. Australia, warm temperate climate

        >

        > > with

        >

        > > > > no snow and little in the way of frosts ñat the most extreme frost

        > to

        >

        > > -8 C.

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > i have successfully direct seeded many vegetables (not even needing

        > the

        >

        > > > > use of seed balls):

        >

        > > > > Buckwheat (most notably!)

        >

        > > > > Grain Amaranth (most notably! from central & south America)

        >

        > > > > Quinoa (most notably! from Bolivia)

        >

        > > > > Sweet Corn

        >

        > > > > Mung Beans

        >

        > > > > Carrots

        >

        > > > > Alfalfa

        >

        > > > > Fenugreek

        >

        > > > > Bok Choi

        >

        > > > > Snow Peas

        >

        > > > > Cucumbers

        >

        > > > > Watermelons

        >

        > > > > Beetroots

        >

        > > > > Tomatoes

        >

        > > > > Capsicums

        >

        > > > > Zucchini

        >

        > > > > Button Squash

        >

        > > > > etcetera

        >

        > > > > Native Bulbine lilies (edible).

        >

        > > > > etcetera

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > Natural self seeding of:

        >

        > > > > Asparagus

        >

        > > > > Locally native Acacia mearnsii ñmany thousands of plants.

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > Apricots

        >

        > > > > Nectarines

        >

        > > > > Peaches

        >

        > > > > A little of previous year's Buckwheat and Amaranth crops (commercial

        >

        > > > > farmers refer to as volunteers)

        >

        > > > > etcetera

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > And my direct sowing of tubers/corms/bulbs/... of:

        >

        > > > > Garlic

        >

        > > > > Jerusalem artichokes

        >

        > > > > etcetera

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > As a green thumb person since i was 13 years old, in my then teenager

        >

        > > > > cooperative relationship with the Melbourne Botanical Gardens

        >

        > > propagating

        >

        > > > > rainforest plant species in my mother's home garden;

        >

        > > > > i see no reason at all any more these days to sow seeds in pots.

        >

        > > > > Personally i have enough practical experienceóover 25 yearsówith

        >

        > > plants

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > growing themselves well in my plant propagation practises,

        >

        > > > > to nowadays be able to successfully predict the direct field seeding

        >

        > > > > requirements of many temperate climate plant species, for their

        >

        > > germination

        >

        > > > > and (self-)establishment as strong plants.

        >

        > > > > In any members of this group who have a background growing up in

        >

        > > farming

        >

        > > > > and in nature i think it is fair that, and i think we should, take it

        >

        > > for

        >

        > > > > granted that these kind of people already have genuine practical

        >

        > > experience

        >

        > > > > and 'green thumbs' (more or less).

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > My point of view is:

        >

        > > > > Of course late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei is right about direct seeding

        >

        > > and

        >

        > > > > much more.

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > Let's (Let us) all feel greatly encouraged!!! ñ

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > my meaning of all the above information is to greatly increase the

        >

        > > > > encouragement of all of us members of this group,

        >

        > > > > to have a go to implement, firstly without any questioning, late

        >

        > > Fukuoka

        >

        > > > > Masanobu sensei's expert and long experience, worldwide.

        >

        > > > > Then later secondarily, or if failures arise, start questioning

        >

        > > itólate

        >

        > > > > Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's waysóand more soómore importantlyóstart

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > questioning each of our personal biases, mistaken awarenesses of,

        >

        > > mistaken

        >

        > > > > informations about, interpretation of, misperceptions of, late

        > Fukuoka

        >

        > > > > Masanobu sensei's ways.

        >

        > > > > Over the last 10 years of my involvement in Fukuoka farming including

        >

        > > this

        >

        > > > > group:

        >

        > > > > Virtually every time i've ever heard of people (in this group and

        >

        > > > > elsewhere), worldwide, failing in their trying to implement late

        >

        > > Fukuoka

        >

        > > > > Masanobu sensei's ways,

        >

        > > > > it has been to me very easy to explain their failures by their own

        >

        > > > > mistaken awarenesses and/or mistaken informations about his ways, and

        >

        > > > > cannot be explained by any proposed failure(s) of nature, itself, nor

        >

        > > of

        >

        > > > > late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's ways and awareness of nature.

        >

        > > > > Nature works (by itself, of course. Regardless of our egos!)!

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > Firstly,

        >

        > > > > Let's (Let us) all (all newcomers) 'give it a try, directly' and

        >

        > > exactly

        >

        > > > > in the way late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei means it to be practised (ie.

        >

        > > > > really faithfully),

        >

        > > > > without inserting any of our own biases. (ie. newcomers: try

        > something

        >

        > > > > different, being his ways, if you're not already 'biased' in the same

        >

        > > way

        >

        > > > > as he is: aligned (with nature)).

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > Jason Stewart

        >

        > > > > --currently in Cairns, Bama country, The Wet Tropics of far north

        >

        > > > > Queensland.

        >

        > > > > --Openly accepting of (my) membership of, my part within, nature.

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > On 02/05/2012, at 2:50 PM, KONSTANTINOS wrote:

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > > Thanks Jason

        >

        > > > > > I will keep it in mind - I will look for it - If jujube is readily

        >

        > > > > available to you from trees in your area, may be you can try to see

        > if

        >

        > > they

        >

        > > > > grow without any assistance, and then report back.

        >

        > > > > > Its simple - just place 4 -5 stones in the ground and make a note

        > to

        >

        > > > > look at them in a year or so.

        >

        > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > I have trees growing from seed in my farm that are 9 feet tall -

        > they

        >

        > > > > are very strong, as they have grown without any watering or care.

        >

        > > > > > Fukuoka -San was right about seed grown trees.

        >

        > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > Kostas

        >

        > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Jason Stewart

        > <macropneuma@>

        >

        > > > > wrote:

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > Dear friend Kostas,

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > One additional fruit tree species that immediately comes to my

        > mind

        >

        > > > > from desert like conditions in east Asia, which you may not have

        >

        > > considered

        >

        > > > > is:

        >

        > > > > > > Jujube (sometimes jujuba),

        >

        > > > > > > red date, Chinese date, Korean date, or Indian date

        >

        > > > > > > _Ziziphus_zizyphus_

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > i love to eat the very sweet AND very healthy (?even medicinal

        >

        > > food?)

        >

        > > > > dates kind of fruit---buying them in Asian and wholefood shops here

        > in

        >

        > > > > Australia.

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > i'm sorry that as yet i haven't got experience to share of

        > growing

        >

        > > > > them myself.

        >

        > > > > > > i have heard from people who have them growing and that they can

        > be

        >

        > > > > grown in deserts,

        >

        > > > > > > as they are naturally ((r)evolutionarily) adapted to these desert

        >

        > > > > regions as their natural home.

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > Some salient quick quotations from Wikipedia:

        >

        > > > > > > ‚Ü'„ÄÄhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujube

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > > > "

        >

        > > > > > > Jujube was domesticated in South Asia by 9000 BCE.[5] Over 400

        >

        > > > > cultivars have been selected.

        >

        > > > > > > The tree tolerates a wide range of temperatures and rainfall,

        >

        > > though

        >

        > > > > it requires hot summers and sufficient water for acceptable fruiting.

        >

        > > > > Unlike most of the other species in the genus, it tolerates fairly

        > cold

        >

        > > > > winters, surviving temperatures down to about ∠'15 °C (5

        >

        > > °F). This

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > enables the jujube to grow in the mountain desert habitats, provided

        >

        > > there

        >

        > > > > is access to underground water through the summer. The species

        >

        > > Z.zizyphus

        >

        > > > > grows in cooler regions of Asia. Five or more other species of

        >

        > > Ziziphus are

        >

        > > > > widely distributed in milder climates to hot deserts of Asia and

        >

        > > Africa.

        >

        > > > > (ref. S. Chaudhary. Rhamnaceae in : S. Chaudhary (Edit.). Flora of

        > the

        >

        > > > > Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Vol II(Part One) 2001.

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > Its precise natural distribution is uncertain due to extensive

        >

        > > > > cultivation, but is thought to be in southern Asia, between Lebanon,

        >

        > > Iran,

        >

        > > > > Pakistan, India,Bangladesh, Nepal (called as Bayar), the Korean

        >

        > > peninsula,

        >

        > > > > and southern and central China, and also southeastern Europe though

        >

        > > more

        >

        > > > > likely introduced there.

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > It is a small deciduous tree or shrub reaching a height of

        >

        > > 5‚Ä"10 m,

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > usually with thorny branches. The leaves are shiny-green,

        > ovate-acute,

        >

        > > > > 2‚Ä"7-cm wide and 1‚Ä"3-cm broad, with three conspicuous veins

        >

        > > at the base,

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > and a finely toothed margin. The flowers are small, 5-mm wide, with

        >

        > > five

        >

        > > > > inconspicuous yellowish-green petals. The fruit is an edible oval

        > drupe

        >

        > > > > 1.5‚Ä"3-cm deep; when immature it is smooth-green, with the

        >

        > > consistency and

        >

        > >

        >

        > > > > taste of an apple, maturing brown to purplish-black and eventually

        >

        > > > > wrinkled, looking like a small date. There is a single hard stone

        >

        > > similar

        >

        > > > > to an olive stone.

        >

        > > > > > > "

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > Here in Australia they are sold as the common name Chinese Dates.

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > Biggest best true nature with all of you,

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > Jason Stewart

        >

        > > > > > > --currently in Cairns, Bama country, The Wet Tropics of far north

        >

        > > > > Queensland.

        >

        > > > > > > --Openly accepting of (my) membership of, my part within, nature.

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > On 01/05/2012, at 1:25 AM, KONSTANTINOS wrote:

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > Thanks Ruthie

        >

        > > > > > > > I will definitely try wild peach - if I can find stones of wild

        >

        > > > > peach - a company in Italy (florsilva) sells stones of what it

        >

        > > describes as

        >

        > > > > wild peach tree - I may try them if I have to.

        >

        > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > The cost of placing a stone/nut in the ground is minuscule in

        >

        > > > > comparison to buying a young tree and watering it for a year or two.

        >

        > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > I hope these trees (almond, apricot, wild peach and maybe

        >

        > > nectarine)

        >

        > > > > will be tried in desert like conditions - like southern Greece ( I

        > will

        >

        > > > > definitely try them), Arizona/Texas, Palestine/Israel and the desert

        >

        > > like

        >

        > > > > places of India.

        >

        > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > Again its important to properly collect seeds - store bought

        >

        > > fruit

        >

        > > > > is not suitable, because they cut the fruits prematurely and store

        >

        > > them in

        >

        > > > > refrigerators, so the stones/nuts do not germinate

        >

        > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > Kostas

        >

        > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Ruthie Aquino

        >

        > > > > <ruthieaquino1@> wrote:

        >

        > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > > Hello Kostas,

        >

        > > > > > > > > In my experience, wild peach also grows without any kind of

        >

        > > care.

        >

        > > > > Just

        >

        > > > > > > > > throw the stone after eating.

        >

        > > > > > > > > Since I am still bound by my old fears engendered by

        > scientific

        >

        > > > > farming, my

        >

        > > > > > > > > first experiment was to put the stones in a pot with earth.

        >

        > > They

        >

        > > > > grew, of

        >

        > > > > > > > > course. So I tried the same thing with red peach last summer,

        >

        > > that

        >

        > > > > grew of

        >

        > > > > > > > > course.

        >

        > > > > > > > > Now those tiny trees are planted in the ground. I use the

        > young

        >

        > > > > leaves to

        >

        > > > > > > > > flavor a delicious liquor. I noticed however that this year

        >

        > > which

        >

        > > > > is very

        >

        > > > > > > > > rainy the leaves curl and blister. I think peach doesn't like

        >

        > > rain.

        >

        > > > > > > > > The friend who gave me the red peaches got them from a

        >

        > > tree...that

        >

        > > > > grew

        >

        > > > > > > > > from a stone she left on the ground. Now hers is a tall tree

        >

        > > but

        >

        > > > > rather

        >

        > > > > > > > > thin because it is not watered or fertilized, but we don't

        >

        > > care,

        >

        > > > > do we? We

        >

        > > > > > > > > just want some nice fruit.

        >

        > > > > > > > > Happy n-farming.

        >

        > > > > > > > > RUTHIE

        >

        > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > > 2012/4/30 KONSTANTINOS <karoubas@>

        >

        > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > > > **

        >

        > > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > > > I have in the past discussed the strength/virtues of the

        >

        > > Almond

        >

        > > > > tree

        >

        > > > > > > > > > in reforestation efforts - how without watering or any care

        >

        > > an

        >

        > > > > almond nut

        >

        > > > > > > > > > buried in the ground will produce a tree even in arid -

        >

        > > desert

        >

        > > > > like

        >

        > > > > > > > > > conditions. To me this amazing - a person can devote an

        > hour

        >

        > > of

        >

        > > > > his/her

        >

        > > > > > > > > > life and create a mini forest using almond nuts. Care of

        >

        > > course

        >

        > > > > must be

        >

        > > > > > > > > > taken to collect nuts from healthy and disease free trees -

        >

        > > not

        >

        > > > > to old or

        >

        > > > > > > > > > young - etc etc.

        >

        > > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > > > To the almond tree, I think we can add the apricot tree -

        > it

        >

        > > has

        >

        > > > > the same

        >

        > > > > > > > > > abilities - I have been placing apricot nuts in different

        >

        > > places

        >

        > > > > and

        >

        > > > > > > > > > without care they do well and grow small trees.

        >

        > > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > > > I hope other volunteers will try this in arid/barren places

        >

        > > and

        >

        > > > > report

        >

        > > > > > > > > > back on the results. Also if you have any experience with

        >

        > > other

        >

        > > > > trees that

        >

        > > > > > > > > > have the same characteristics please let us know.

        >

        > > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > > > Kostas

        >

        > > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        > > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        > > > > > >

        >

        > > > > >

        >

        > > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > ------------------------------------

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > > >

        >

        > > >

        >

        > > >

        >

        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        > > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > h

        >

        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        >

        >



        --

        Thanks and all the best,

        Jason



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jason Stewart
        Dear friend Ivana, In my dominating thick, tall (1m) kikuyu grass areas (species: _Pennisetum_clandestinum_) i , meaning in fact the rest of nature around me,
        Message 3 of 26 , May 6, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear friend Ivana,

          In my dominating thick, tall (1m) kikuyu grass areas (species: _Pennisetum_clandestinum_)
          'i', meaning in fact the rest of nature around me, have (as said briefly before) succeeded in getting directly sown seeds growing themselves, of foods:
          Avocado
          Apricot
          Peach
          Nectarine
          etc.

          Widely across the grass land areas also of hundreds of self growing trees of locally naturally occurring tall moist forest species, which have largish seeds and are powerful self-fertile nitrogen fixing species:
          Australian native Acacia species:
          Acacia mearnsii ((temperate climate) Black Wattle, synonym Acacia mollissima, in Japanese syllables' roman--characters--spelling (romaji) Acacia morishima)
          Acacia melanoxylon ((temperate climate) Blackwood Wattle)

          In the widely separated, occasional few cm bare soil gaps, amongst these generally--dominating, tall, thick grass land areas:
          Occasional few Eucalyptus (Gum tree) species,
          nothing like the density that naturally would come up (germinate and establish well) without the dominating thick, tall (1m) kikuyu grass land areas, in those of my farm areas of once destroyed tall forest.
          Senecio linearifolius (Fireweed Groundsel - native 'weed' coloniser.pioneer species which leads ecological succession process back to the tall forest.)
          etc.

          This dominating Kikuyu grass land was human--'constructed' by destroying
          (felling, burning, ploughing, stump removal, levelling and draining the soil of:) the magnificent tall forest in these river flats,
          for dairy cattle farming about 60-80 years ago (our previous property owner 'developer').

          Common crop vegetable varieties (having small seeds) i would never expect to grow themselves in alive, tall, thick or densely matted (lawn like) grass,
          from basic farming--naturalist experience. And obvious to basic farming--naturalist experience, we would never waste time even countenancing that. It would be ridiculous magical thinking. Fukuoka farming does not at all consist of magical thinking. That thought is only for city people lacking basic farming--naturalist experience.

          Solarisation, a method, of suppressing 'lawn' grass areas, which has not mechanical disturbance of soil structure nor of soil life. Natural disturbances of flood, fire, frost, animal digging, tree fall, and so on do more localised or widespread disturbance of soil structure and soil life than appropriately, naturally practised solarisation does. Appropriate short term hot summer solarisation, heats foliage (foliage cells) without heating soil deeper than 1-2 cm. Like natural, appropriate, mild forest fires and natural floods, this brings partial sterilisation of shallow surface soil life, of about 1-2 cm, from which many pathogenic (dominating human damaged environments) micro-organisms are (in published evidence) disadvantaged and many more of a diversity of beneficial ('natural') micro-organisms given the opportunity to re-colonise these soil surface layers, which the do very rapidly within a matters of days (in published evidence).
          Thus like frost with regards to foliage effects (also),
          breaking down foliage cells and so above ground only foliage (not roots nor stolons nor rhizomes) rapidly dies back for a short time, absorbed rapidly back into the living soil just beneath, as fertile rich mulch.
          In this direct sown seeds or seedballs, of small seeded or bred-up weak domesticated vegetables (eg. tomatoes) and herbaceous (eg. herbs, herbaceous 'grain' foods buckwheat, quinoa, amaranth) species readily germinate, establish and grow very healthy crops. Leave solarisation plastic sheeting too long and soil damage from overheating results, even indirectly then damaging soil structure. i've been quietly experimenting with this technological method for nearly ten years. Appropriately and carefully implemented, without any religious, fanatical, green-washing, dogmatic, brutal mis-construing, pseudo--Fukuoka--farming interpretations, it is quite human--natural part of the rest of nature. Substantial crops over small half to one acre areas of perfectly fertile, healthy, organic, natural soils grow themselves very well in this caring rehabilitated habitat---once tall moist forest wantonly destroyed to grow exclusively dominating African--savanna mega--fauna food Kikuyu grass, for industrial cattle farming.

          As well as roller crimping (Raju, thanks again), a method of suppressing taller growths of 'weeds', for direct sowing seeds of natural crops.


          Late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's Japanese writing of no plowing is literally and completely no plowing:

          "不耕起" [fu kō ki]:
          The prefix word: 不---read ふ (fu)---literally and completely means: 'not':
          "不 【ふ】 (pref) un-; non-; dis-; SP"*
          "耕起 【こうき】 plowing; RW"*

          Also written: "耕さない"
          "耕す 【たがやす】 (v5s,vt) to till; to plow; to plough; to cultivate; (P); ED"*
          ない (na i) literal, and even more simple meaning, of: not.
          See for example (NHK, TV national public broadcaster, 2011, Japan, Late Mr Fukuoka Masanobu sensei life--work summary):
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBtaRJvvsK0

          This literal and complete: no plowing is the primary principle---number one---the primary and first of the first principles directly from nature's first principle.
          Nature has grown our Earth and us humans into existence over a more than 3 billion year period, without ever needing human plowing of soil.
          We must keep this in mind, as per keeping reality (in mind).

          Furthermore taken overall as a whole (monolithically), the English translations are inevitably incomplete in meanings, in inevitable places---never more than being translations (of course and obviously). This fact is clearly, but briefly, stated by Larry Korn in his Introduction and Notes, in "The One--Straw Revolution"

          The English translations have been taken fanatically and way too literally as if some silly--magical--thinking: religious, perfect texts,
          when in fact they are translations---inescapably---of original Japanese scholarly written words of late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei
          (of course and obviously to anyone not suffering magical thinking).
          As if the well known phrase 'lost in translation' was a new idea to anyone!
          The English translation words cannot get taken out of the context of his Japanese original word's original meanings.

          Late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei clearly writes the definitions of the the second, third, fourth and fifth principles of Fukuoka farming using the prefix word: 無---read む (mu), instead of: 不---read ふ (fu)
          (Complexification for completeness, don't bother with it unless you're into Japanese language: the 無 word read ぶ (bu), and as part of the common word 無い read ない (na i), also can be used to mean not more literally than its reading む (mu)).
          The word: 無---read む (mu) inevitably isn't literally and isn't completely translated in the English translations---in the English translations texts---whereas the word: 不---read ふ (fu), is literally and completely translated, as meaning not.
          無 read wú in Chinese language.

          Late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei has written much more widely subject of "Mu" since at least his 1947 Japanese, first book: "無" (Mu), translated to English by Alfred Birnbaum: "Mu: the God Revolution" ?1994?, and with his 3 volume series, of large sized scholarly Japanese books, all titled "無"---read む (mu), each of the 3 have different subtitles, the third one subtitled: 自然農法 (nature farming), all first self-published from 1969-1973, and all fully updated and revised by him until last revisions published 2004 by Shunjūsha.

          The implied 'bigger picture' meaning of Mu weeding, means not weeding in the sense of not weeding against Mu
          ---mu in his Buddhist terms giving the deeper meaning of Nothingness (spiritual and containing consciousness before the cosmos came into existence)---the basis of the cosmos and at the root of all, of universal reality---including of all of us; futhermore, see: → http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bigideas/numinous-cosmos/3864728
          Mu: also in other words (of western science): 'Before the big band! What?'
          Furthermore, see → http://blog.oup.com/2012/04/four-myths-about-zen-buddhisms-mu-koan/

          Nature (自然 read shi zen), i can appropriately interpret as the subset of Mu (Nothingness)---the Cosmos (unseparated physical and spiritual), arising spontaneous out of Nothingness---'everything' since after the big bang---including all of us.
          Therefore not weeding against Mu, means also not weeding against nature (the cosmos---nature, the subset of Mu).

          "無肥料" [mu hi ryō]
          "肥料 【ひりょう】 (n) manure; fertilizer; fertiliser; (P); ED"*

          "無農薬" [mu nō yaku]
          "農薬 【のうやく】 (n,adj-no) agricultural chemical (i.e. pesticide, herbicide, fungicide, etc.); agrochemical; agrichemical; (P); ED"*

          "無除草" [mu jyo sō]
          "除草 【じょそう】 (n,vs) weeding; (P); ED"* -- [verb: to weed (a garden or farm)]

          Late Fukuoka Masanobu sensei does not use the literal 不 (fu) word for not with fertilizing, agricultural chemical application nor weeding.
          He uses "無"---read む (mu), decisively making a very clear distinction from the literal word for not 不---read ふ (fu), as said, which ha uses only for not plowing.

          Therefore, in repetitive summary:
          "No fertilising" when the Japanese: "無肥料" more completely means Mu fertilising, even if that would require English readers to have to learn the meaning of the Japanese and Buddhist philosophy of mu.
          "No pesticides or herbicides [or agricultural chemicals]" when the Japanese: 無農薬 more completely means Mu pesticides or herbicides [or agricultural chemicals]
          "No weeding" when the Japanese means: Mu [weeding] even if that would require English readers to have to learn the meaning of the Japanese and Buddhist philosophy of mu.

          No actions against nature, and
          human and/or mechanical plowing is definitively against nature,
          whereas nature can do some weeding by itself by competition, plant death, plant diseases creating gaps, etc, which is well reproduced by natural humans acting in natural ways, doing 'weed' natural suppression---much more effective anyway---with trying to control nor eradicate 'weeds'.
          No actions against nature; 無為 (read in roman characters of Japanese as: mu i, pronounced in typical English as: moo ee) in Japanese; Famous phrase: Wú Wéi, from Laozi, ancient Chinese originator of Taoism spirituality and religion, from in Chinese language.

          Notes
          * quotations from WWWJDIC, Japanese translation (instant) assistance online dictionary---stands for World Wide Web Japanese DICtionary.

          Hence in with the clarifications above i agree with your prior message's words (quoted below).

          More info later.

          Sorry for a reply with not enough good copyediting for good easily readable wording.


          Thanks again,

          Jason Stewart.
          --currently in Cairns, Bama country, The Wet Tropics of far north Queensland.
          --Openly accepting of (my) membership of, my part within, nature.


          On 06/05/2012, at 3:16 AM, Ivana Balazevic-Fisher wrote:

          > HI
          >
          > I can see that the word plough has caught people's imagination. Perhaps understandably. Still, can anybody report their experiences with seedballs scattered into the long matted grass? We have had a couple of people report their lack of success, but nobody reporting a success yet since this discussion started.
          >
          > Fukuoka did use meausres to control weeds growing in his rice fields (scattering straw, flooding the field briefly, white clover etc), so to my mind it would mean that some weed control may indeed be necessary (it is not a do nothing farming, despite its name in english translation) . Other than that, he did not start from a thick matter grass field (as far as I know), but from fields that were cultivated by his family before, so he wasn't in a position to have to work out what to do about that. I am sure that he would have worked it out, had he been in need of it.
          >
          > There is one passage somewhere in the One Straw Revolution that I particularly like, that says roughly
          > that only to those who stand where barley stands the barley will reveal its
          > secrets.
          >
          > If you were a barley grain (or any other), thrown onto a thick matted grass, what would you do? Try to stand where it stands and listen to what it says.
          >
          > Best regards
          >
          > Ivana
          >
          >
          > --- On Sat, 5/5/12, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
          > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Almond Tree ... planting in grass
          > To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com" <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Saturday, May 5, 2012, 6:35 AM
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > In the chapter 'Farming among weeds', these statements are given..
          >
          > "In making the transition to this kind of farming, some weeding,composting or pruning may be necessary at first, but these measures should be gradually reduced each year. Ultimately, it is not the growing technique which is the most important factor, but rather the state of mind of the farmer."..
          >
          > Here plowing is left out, so it looks like Fukuoka san was suggesting to avoid plowing altogether ??
          >
          > Recently read some portions of 'Fertility farming' by Newman turner which talks about experiences of no-till farming and how it gives results after properly building up the soil. These experiments happened in 1940's. There is a mention of 'Plowmans folly' in this book.
          >
          > This is available online - just search 'Fertility Farming'
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Nandan
          >
          >



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        • Jason Stewart
          Minor key correction: *without* trying to control nor eradicate weeds . ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 26 , May 6, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Minor key correction:

            *without* trying to control nor eradicate 'weeds'.

            On 07/05/2012, at 3:48 PM, Jason Stewart wrote:

            > *with trying to control nor eradicate 'weeds'.*



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