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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences

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  • Harish Amur
    Yes. I agree that grazing destroys a farm and the fertility. Very recently sheep entered our farm in our absence and our NF plot is destroyed :( You were
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 28, 2011
      Yes. I agree that grazing destroys a farm and the fertility. Very recently
      sheep entered our farm in our absence and our NF plot is destroyed :(

      You were talking in a larger context and I was thinking about a couple of
      cows in my farm. Truly grounded in my thoughts :)

      A lot of energy is lost as the seasons change too. The leaves go dry, grass
      dries etc. Wind carries the dried leaves etc away from the farm. Birds and
      other living organisms also feed on the grains and they don't necessarily
      live on the farm. We do get wild boars too.


      Regards,
      Harish

      On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Daniel <dfjager@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > This may be very hard to swallow for a great many: But it is livestock
      > that destroyed the Arab peninsula thousands of years ago, it is livestock
      > that destroyed northern Africa and it is livestock today that is destroying
      > eastern Africa. All these areas had, in the past, abundant growth, trees
      > and also rainfall.
      >
      > All livestock introductions follow the same pattern. Cows and horses are
      > brought in first. They eat all the grass. Forests are cut down, or burnt to
      > make more pastures for grazing. As the soil dries out and becomes poorer,
      > sheep replace the cows, and as the sheep devastate the land further (they
      > eat young tree saplings), the land becomes even drier until there is so
      > little fertility left that only goats can be kept.
      > Jared Diamond wrote a lot about this classic decline of land fertility
      > after livestock introductions.
      >
      > The problem is very persistent since in most of the areas I mentioned a
      > man's "worth" is measured by the size of his flock, not be the state of his
      > orchards. So it is the cultural traditions and our ego that make it all
      > just incredibly difficult to change.
      >
      > India's saving graze is the Indian ocean monsoon; otherwise much of it
      > would likely have been desert long ago.
      >
      > Daniel
      >
      >
      > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "greenie6666" <normbeee@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > I agree with Nandan, in NF most of anything grown must be returned to
      > the soil, to continue the fertility & to continue to improve it. Fukuoko
      > would only harvest the grain, all other vegetation should be returned to
      > the area.
      > > If the straw is cut or removed eventually the soil will be depleted of
      > it's fertility. Or as Nandan says, it's energy as everything is energy.
      > > I know the cow is sacred in India, but when I have visited there I often
      > wonder how any crops can be grown, with so many stray livestock, cows,
      > sheep & goats. I know the problem is that fencing is very expensive.
      > > So if livestock are allowed to graze an area, the manure should be
      > returned, otherwise over time things will go backwards & the soils
      > fertility will suffer.
      > > ..regards...Norm Australia.
      > >
      > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Harish Amur <harishamur@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > There are only a few of them. The grass in our farm grows rampantly.
      > We are
      > > > not worried about over grazing.
      > > >
      > > > "Energy lost" - I did not understand this part of your comment. How do
      > you
      > > > relate this to fertility of the soil? How do you compare the grazing to
      > > > harvesting? We lose energy in a harvest
      > > >
      > > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@
      > > > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > **
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Harish,
      > > > >
      > > > > Won't the fertility of soil reduce if the cattle graze your farm?
      > > > > Otherwise you should put back the cow dung and urine back to the
      > soil, but
      > > > > still there is some energy lost.
      > > > >
      > > > > I was planning to have some cows so that fertility from one area can
      > be
      > > > > moved to other. It is all my thinking, may not be 100% true.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Regards,
      > > > >
      > > > > Nandan
      > > > >
      > > > > ________________________________
      > > > > From: Harish Amur <harishamur@>
      > > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:12 PM
      > > > >
      > > > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] NF experiences
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > I was trying to emphasize on the issues a NF farmer has, when his
      > > > > neighbours are not educated about NF. I do not have any issue with
      > cattle,
      > > > > I believe they should eat as much grass as possible. And most cattle
      > > > > restrict their grazing to a field the supervisor wants them to be
      > in. It is
      > > > > more of the supervisor problem.
      > > > >
      > > > > Boovarahan, I am not sure how we can identify the failed seeds even
      > if we
      > > > > made seed balls. It is also quite difficult to make seed balls of
      > certain
      > > > > grains - for ex. mustard.
      > > > >
      > > > > The additional challenge is to locate your crop within the weeds
      > (till such
      > > > > time weeds grow in your NF farm). I am afraid to step into my NF
      > plot that
      > > > > has chickpea, mung etc as I may kill a good plant. Only when they
      > would
      > > > > have grown to a size that makes them easily identifiable, I would
      > venture
      > > > > into this plot.
      > > > >
      > > > > We got some jaggery made out of some of the sugar cane that has been
      > > > > growing in our farm. This is the first time that we are getting
      > jaggery
      > > > > made, so all excited. Personally spent some time to ensure that no
      > chemical
      > > > > was used while it was being made. Not sure how many of the
      > non-Indian folks
      > > > > understand 'jaggery'.
      > > > >
      > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Boovarahan Srinivasan <offtown@
      > > > > >wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > > **
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hi Nandan !
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Fukuoka used seed balls which had just one or two seeds in a ball
      > and the
      > > > > > seed ball density was just right.
      > > > > > This may not be possible with direct scattering of seeds.
      > > > > > You can have a rope marker and just drop a couple of seeds at
      > regular
      > > > > > intervals of , say , one foot.
      > > > > > This may be a good alternative to indiscriminate scattering of
      > seeds.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <
      > > > > > p_k_nandanan@
      > > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > **
      > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Hi Harish,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Some people around my farm make a living by keeping cows. So
      > they are
      > > > > > > depending on the nearby farms. As long as the economic
      > differences
      > > > > exists
      > > > > > > these issues are going to be there. I keep on telling them and
      > they
      > > > > will
      > > > > > > hear for some time, again bring the cattles, so it is an ever
      > ending
      > > > > > > circle. Finally I may have to put a wire fencing to avoid this,
      > which I
      > > > > > > wanted avoid.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > This time for my rice, I ended up in sowing more and rice plants
      > came
      > > > > > very
      > > > > > > thickly, initially I was happy that it could crowd out weeds, but
      > > > > later I
      > > > > > > found that rice plants are competing each other and does not
      > become
      > > > > > strong
      > > > > > > plants. So it looks like broadcasting with right density is
      > little
      > > > > > tricky.
      > > > > > > Also finding out how every place is sown also is difficult since
      > we are
      > > > > > > broadcasting above the grass.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Fukuoka san's video shows him broadcasting seeds here and there
      > but it
      > > > > > all
      > > > > > > works out for him well.May be because of seed balls, germination
      > is
      > > > > > better
      > > > > > > and predictable.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Regards,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Nandan
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > Boovarahan S
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > Chennai.
      > > > > > 09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Daniel
      Personally, I have nothing against keeping *a few* goats or a cow or two for milk production to be consumed by the people in the homestead. Fukuoka worked with
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 29, 2011
        Personally, I have nothing against keeping *a few* goats or a cow or two for milk production to be consumed by the people in the homestead. Fukuoka worked with chickens, and that is truly great. They don't eat what we eat, they produce great nutrition in the form of eggs, and hardly any culture on Earth places any restriction on the consumption of chicken meat.

        The traditional Thai farm (I live in Thailand) has a duck pond, with fish or shrimp also cultivated in the same water, some chickens roaming freely about on the farm, and perhaps one or two buffaloes for ploughing or milk production. This is quite sustainable, as long as the farm area is large enough.

        It is when milk or meat production is magnified for 'mass consumption', or worse for export, that the land will inevitably suffer.

        I hope everyone understands that I do not criticize any cultural traditions regarding the animal perse, just the scale at which we (ab)use said animals.

        Daniel


        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Harish Amur <harishamur@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes. I agree that grazing destroys a farm and the fertility. Very recently
        > sheep entered our farm in our absence and our NF plot is destroyed :(
        >
        > You were talking in a larger context and I was thinking about a couple of
        > cows in my farm. Truly grounded in my thoughts :)
        >
        > A lot of energy is lost as the seasons change too. The leaves go dry, grass
        > dries etc. Wind carries the dried leaves etc away from the farm. Birds and
        > other living organisms also feed on the grains and they don't necessarily
        > live on the farm. We do get wild boars too.
        >
        >
        > Regards,
        > Harish
        >
        > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Daniel <dfjager@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > This may be very hard to swallow for a great many: But it is livestock
        > > that destroyed the Arab peninsula thousands of years ago, it is livestock
        > > that destroyed northern Africa and it is livestock today that is destroying
        > > eastern Africa. All these areas had, in the past, abundant growth, trees
        > > and also rainfall.
        > >
        > > All livestock introductions follow the same pattern. Cows and horses are
        > > brought in first. They eat all the grass. Forests are cut down, or burnt to
        > > make more pastures for grazing. As the soil dries out and becomes poorer,
        > > sheep replace the cows, and as the sheep devastate the land further (they
        > > eat young tree saplings), the land becomes even drier until there is so
        > > little fertility left that only goats can be kept.
        > > Jared Diamond wrote a lot about this classic decline of land fertility
        > > after livestock introductions.
        > >
        > > The problem is very persistent since in most of the areas I mentioned a
        > > man's "worth" is measured by the size of his flock, not be the state of his
        > > orchards. So it is the cultural traditions and our ego that make it all
        > > just incredibly difficult to change.
        > >
        > > India's saving graze is the Indian ocean monsoon; otherwise much of it
        > > would likely have been desert long ago.
        > >
        > > Daniel
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "greenie6666" <normbeee@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I agree with Nandan, in NF most of anything grown must be returned to
        > > the soil, to continue the fertility & to continue to improve it. Fukuoko
        > > would only harvest the grain, all other vegetation should be returned to
        > > the area.
        > > > If the straw is cut or removed eventually the soil will be depleted of
        > > it's fertility. Or as Nandan says, it's energy as everything is energy.
        > > > I know the cow is sacred in India, but when I have visited there I often
        > > wonder how any crops can be grown, with so many stray livestock, cows,
        > > sheep & goats. I know the problem is that fencing is very expensive.
        > > > So if livestock are allowed to graze an area, the manure should be
        > > returned, otherwise over time things will go backwards & the soils
        > > fertility will suffer.
        > > > ..regards...Norm Australia.
        > > >
        > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Harish Amur <harishamur@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > There are only a few of them. The grass in our farm grows rampantly.
        > > We are
        > > > > not worried about over grazing.
        > > > >
        > > > > "Energy lost" - I did not understand this part of your comment. How do
        > > you
        > > > > relate this to fertility of the soil? How do you compare the grazing to
        > > > > harvesting? We lose energy in a harvest
        > > > >
        > > > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@
        > > > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > **
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi Harish,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Won't the fertility of soil reduce if the cattle graze your farm?
        > > > > > Otherwise you should put back the cow dung and urine back to the
        > > soil, but
        > > > > > still there is some energy lost.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I was planning to have some cows so that fertility from one area can
        > > be
        > > > > > moved to other. It is all my thinking, may not be 100% true.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Regards,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Nandan
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ________________________________
        > > > > > From: Harish Amur <harishamur@>
        > > > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:12 PM
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] NF experiences
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I was trying to emphasize on the issues a NF farmer has, when his
        > > > > > neighbours are not educated about NF. I do not have any issue with
        > > cattle,
        > > > > > I believe they should eat as much grass as possible. And most cattle
        > > > > > restrict their grazing to a field the supervisor wants them to be
        > > in. It is
        > > > > > more of the supervisor problem.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Boovarahan, I am not sure how we can identify the failed seeds even
        > > if we
        > > > > > made seed balls. It is also quite difficult to make seed balls of
        > > certain
        > > > > > grains - for ex. mustard.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > The additional challenge is to locate your crop within the weeds
        > > (till such
        > > > > > time weeds grow in your NF farm). I am afraid to step into my NF
        > > plot that
        > > > > > has chickpea, mung etc as I may kill a good plant. Only when they
        > > would
        > > > > > have grown to a size that makes them easily identifiable, I would
        > > venture
        > > > > > into this plot.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > We got some jaggery made out of some of the sugar cane that has been
        > > > > > growing in our farm. This is the first time that we are getting
        > > jaggery
        > > > > > made, so all excited. Personally spent some time to ensure that no
        > > chemical
        > > > > > was used while it was being made. Not sure how many of the
        > > non-Indian folks
        > > > > > understand 'jaggery'.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Boovarahan Srinivasan <offtown@
        > > > > > >wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > **
        > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hi Nandan !
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Fukuoka used seed balls which had just one or two seeds in a ball
        > > and the
        > > > > > > seed ball density was just right.
        > > > > > > This may not be possible with direct scattering of seeds.
        > > > > > > You can have a rope marker and just drop a couple of seeds at
        > > regular
        > > > > > > intervals of , say , one foot.
        > > > > > > This may be a good alternative to indiscriminate scattering of
        > > seeds.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <
        > > > > > > p_k_nandanan@
        > > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > **
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hi Harish,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Some people around my farm make a living by keeping cows. So
        > > they are
        > > > > > > > depending on the nearby farms. As long as the economic
        > > differences
        > > > > > exists
        > > > > > > > these issues are going to be there. I keep on telling them and
        > > they
        > > > > > will
        > > > > > > > hear for some time, again bring the cattles, so it is an ever
        > > ending
        > > > > > > > circle. Finally I may have to put a wire fencing to avoid this,
        > > which I
        > > > > > > > wanted avoid.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > This time for my rice, I ended up in sowing more and rice plants
        > > came
        > > > > > > very
        > > > > > > > thickly, initially I was happy that it could crowd out weeds, but
        > > > > > later I
        > > > > > > > found that rice plants are competing each other and does not
        > > become
        > > > > > > strong
        > > > > > > > plants. So it looks like broadcasting with right density is
        > > little
        > > > > > > tricky.
        > > > > > > > Also finding out how every place is sown also is difficult since
        > > we are
        > > > > > > > broadcasting above the grass.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Fukuoka san's video shows him broadcasting seeds here and there
        > > but it
        > > > > > > all
        > > > > > > > works out for him well.May be because of seed balls, germination
        > > is
        > > > > > > better
        > > > > > > > and predictable.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Regards,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Nandan
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Boovarahan S
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Chennai.
        > > > > > > 09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > >
        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Boovarahan Srinivasan
        If my memory serves me right , I read the article on Jacob in Pasumai Vikatan some two years back. There is no online link. Sorry ! On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 29, 2011
          If my memory serves me right , I read the article on Jacob in Pasumai
          Vikatan some two years back.
          There is no online link. Sorry !

          On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 8:05 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...
          > wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > The effect of applying cow dung/urine looks to be immediate, while
          > mulching looks to take more time. May be that is the reason Fukuoka san
          > used to put chicken manure above the straw mulch to make the decomposition
          > faster and make it available to the plants immediately. But one thing is
          > for sure, right balance is required, otherwise fertility will be affected.
          >
          > This is the blog - http://blog.akshayakalpa.org
          >
          > Let me know you have the link of that article about Jacob in Kottayam.
          >
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Nandan
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Boovarahan Srinivasan <offtown@...>
          > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 7:35 PM
          > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > NF , in the strictest sense , is returning plant residue to land , no or
          > minimum intervention in nature's work.
          > But when people use cows for its milk, curd , ghee , panchagavya, cow dung
          > cake ( for fuel) etc. they have to interrupt this natural cycle and take
          > away the plants to be used as fodder. This makes the soil weakened. There
          > are two points to note. One is , natural cycle is affected and the land
          > does not get what is due. Second , the micro climate is affected as there
          > are no more plants to cover the land, the soil is exposed to scorching sun
          > and frost . This badly affects the microbial activity in the soil . By
          > depositing the cow dung / manure , part of the natural order is restored as
          > the soil gets the plant items in the form of cow dung but the ground green
          > cover is no more available exposing the soil to sun and frost. In stricter
          > terms one has to redeploy all plant items that are available ,to the soil .
          > I remember reading an article somewhere a couple of years back highlighting
          > one Mr Jacob in Kottayam whose garden had knee deep mulching and the farm
          > output was unparalleled.
          > Subash Palekar's ZBF comes close to NF with minimum intervention .
          >
          > May I have the link to Shasi's blog ?
          >
          > On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 5:42 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <
          > p_k_nandanan@...
          > > wrote:
          >
          > > **
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Norm,
          > >
          > > Nice to hear from you and thanks for the clarifications.
          > >
          > > I have the habit of visiting organic/natural farmers and trying to learn
          > a
          > > few things from them. Two days back, happened to visit a farmer who has
          > > around 24 cows of local breeds. He is a fan of local breeds and bring
          > them
          > > from different parts of country - Gir, vechur, kasarkod dwarf are the
          > types
          > > of cows and some of them are brought from some tribal areas. But I could
          > > see that he is not able to feed all the cows from his farm which is of 10
          > > acres. Grass is less with grazing and coconut trees are in bad shape,
          > > mainly because of some kind of virus. But one thing to notice is that he
          > is
          > > still goes ahead with natural farming and does not do anything about it.
          > >
          > > I was impressed after reading Shashi's blog where it is mentioned that by
          > > applying cow dung productivity of coconuts can be increased from 50 nuts
          > to
          > > 250 nuts per tree. I have also seen similar organic cultivation where
          > > farmers apply lot of cow dung, chicken manure etc..and produce gigantic
          > > tapioca, elephant foot yam etc..
          > >
          > > As a farmer, I won't mind getting better yields, and keep wondering if
          > > there is any natural way of doing it in short time..For e.g growing
          > > multiple types of legumes, grasses and mulching with it etc..
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > >
          > > Nandan
          > >
          > >
          > Boovarahan S
          > Chennai.
          > 09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          --
          Boovarahan S
          Chennai.
          09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nandan Palaparambil
          Thanks Daniel for this information. Never new that over grazing produced deserts. Will have to read more about this and Jared Diamond. Regards, Nandan
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 29, 2011
            Thanks Daniel for this information. Never new that over grazing produced deserts. Will have to read more about this and Jared Diamond.

            Regards,

            Nandan



            ________________________________
            From: Daniel <dfjager@...>
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:35 AM
            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences


             
            This may be very hard to swallow for a great many: But it is livestock that destroyed the Arab peninsula thousands of years ago, it is livestock that destroyed northern Africa and it is livestock today that is destroying eastern Africa. All these areas had, in the past, abundant growth, trees and also rainfall.

            All livestock introductions follow the same pattern. Cows and horses are brought in first. They eat all the grass. Forests are cut down, or burnt to make more pastures for grazing. As the soil dries out and becomes poorer, sheep replace the cows, and as the sheep devastate the land further (they eat young tree saplings), the land becomes even drier until there is so little fertility left that only goats can be kept.
            Jared Diamond wrote a lot about this classic decline of land fertility after livestock introductions.

            The problem is very persistent since in most of the areas I mentioned a man's "worth" is measured by the size of his flock, not be the state of his orchards. So it is the cultural traditions and our ego that make it all just incredibly difficult to change.

            India's saving graze is the Indian ocean monsoon; otherwise much of it would likely have been desert long ago.

            Daniel

            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "greenie6666" <normbeee@...> wrote:
            >
            > I agree with Nandan, in NF most of anything grown must be returned to the soil, to continue the fertility & to continue to improve it. Fukuoko would only harvest the grain, all other vegetation should be returned to the area.
            > If the straw is cut or removed eventually the soil will be depleted of it's fertility. Or as Nandan says, it's energy as everything is energy.
            > I know the cow is sacred in India, but when I have visited there I often wonder how any crops can be grown, with so many stray livestock, cows, sheep & goats. I know the problem is that fencing is very expensive.
            > So if livestock are allowed to graze an area, the manure should be returned, otherwise over time things will go backwards & the soils fertility will suffer.
            > ..regards...Norm Australia.
            >
            > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Harish Amur <harishamur@> wrote:
            > >
            > > There are only a few of them. The grass in our farm grows rampantly. We are
            > > not worried about over grazing.
            > >
            > > "Energy lost" - I did not understand this part of your comment. How do you
            > > relate this to fertility of the soil? How do you compare the grazing to
            > > harvesting? We lose energy in a harvest
            > >
            > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@
            > > > wrote:
            > >
            > > > **
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hi Harish,
            > > >
            > > > Won't the fertility of soil reduce if the cattle graze your farm?
            > > > Otherwise you should put back the cow dung and urine back to the soil, but
            > > > still there is some energy lost.
            > > >
            > > > I was planning to have some cows so that fertility from one area can be
            > > > moved to other. It is all my thinking, may not be 100% true.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Regards,
            > > >
            > > > Nandan
            > > >
            > > > ________________________________
            > > > From: Harish Amur <harishamur@>
            > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:12 PM
            > > >
            > > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] NF experiences
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I was trying to emphasize on the issues a NF farmer has, when his
            > > > neighbours are not educated about NF. I do not have any issue with cattle,
            > > > I believe they should eat as much grass as possible. And most cattle
            > > > restrict their grazing to a field the supervisor wants them to be in. It is
            > > > more of the supervisor problem.
            > > >
            > > > Boovarahan, I am not sure how we can identify the failed seeds even if we
            > > > made seed balls. It is also quite difficult to make seed balls of certain
            > > > grains - for ex. mustard.
            > > >
            > > > The additional challenge is to locate your crop within the weeds (till such
            > > > time weeds grow in your NF farm). I am afraid to step into my NF plot that
            > > > has chickpea, mung etc as I may kill a good plant. Only when they would
            > > > have grown to a size that makes them easily identifiable, I would venture
            > > > into this plot.
            > > >
            > > > We got some jaggery made out of some of the sugar cane that has been
            > > > growing in our farm. This is the first time that we are getting jaggery
            > > > made, so all excited. Personally spent some time to ensure that no chemical
            > > > was used while it was being made. Not sure how many of the non-Indian folks
            > > > understand 'jaggery'.
            > > >
            > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Boovarahan Srinivasan <offtown@
            > > > >wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > **
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Hi Nandan !
            > > > >
            > > > > Fukuoka used seed balls which had just one or two seeds in a ball and the
            > > > > seed ball density was just right.
            > > > > This may not be possible with direct scattering of seeds.
            > > > > You can have a rope marker and just drop a couple of seeds at regular
            > > > > intervals of , say , one foot.
            > > > > This may be a good alternative to indiscriminate scattering of seeds.
            > > > >
            > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <
            > > > > p_k_nandanan@
            > > > > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > > **
            > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hi Harish,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Some people around my farm make a living by keeping cows. So they are
            > > > > > depending on the nearby farms. As long as the economic differences
            > > > exists
            > > > > > these issues are going to be there. I keep on telling them and they
            > > > will
            > > > > > hear for some time, again bring the cattles, so it is an ever ending
            > > > > > circle. Finally I may have to put a wire fencing to avoid this, which I
            > > > > > wanted avoid.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > This time for my rice, I ended up in sowing more and rice plants came
            > > > > very
            > > > > > thickly, initially I was happy that it could crowd out weeds, but
            > > > later I
            > > > > > found that rice plants are competing each other and does not become
            > > > > strong
            > > > > > plants. So it looks like broadcasting with right density is little
            > > > > tricky.
            > > > > > Also finding out how every place is sown also is difficult since we are
            > > > > > broadcasting above the grass.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Fukuoka san's video shows him broadcasting seeds here and there but it
            > > > > all
            > > > > > works out for him well.May be because of seed balls, germination is
            > > > > better
            > > > > > and predictable.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Regards,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Nandan
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > > Boovarahan S
            > > > > >
            > > > > Chennai.
            > > > > 09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ruthie Aquino
            Nandan, There are entire deserts in Mongolia the recent appearance of which is due to the world demand for cashmere wool. Desertification and forest
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 30, 2011
              Nandan,

              There are entire deserts in Mongolia the recent appearance of which is due
              to the world demand for cashmere wool.
              Desertification and forest destruction is alarming. They in turn lead to
              species extinction.
              I live far from my native Philippines and I doubt if our farmers there know
              that converting forests into cash crop land is leading to the extinction of
              many indigenous and even endemic species.

              Happy New Year and hope it brings us the awareness we have our destiny in
              our hands.

              RUTHIE



              2011/12/30 Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>

              > **
              >
              >
              > Thanks Daniel for this information. Never new that over grazing produced
              > deserts. Will have to read more about this and Jared Diamond.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Nandan
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Daniel <dfjager@...>
              > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:35 AM
              > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > This may be very hard to swallow for a great many: But it is livestock
              > that destroyed the Arab peninsula thousands of years ago, it is livestock
              > that destroyed northern Africa and it is livestock today that is destroying
              > eastern Africa. All these areas had, in the past, abundant growth, trees
              > and also rainfall.
              >
              > All livestock introductions follow the same pattern. Cows and horses are
              > brought in first. They eat all the grass. Forests are cut down, or burnt to
              > make more pastures for grazing. As the soil dries out and becomes poorer,
              > sheep replace the cows, and as the sheep devastate the land further (they
              > eat young tree saplings), the land becomes even drier until there is so
              > little fertility left that only goats can be kept.
              > Jared Diamond wrote a lot about this classic decline of land fertility
              > after livestock introductions.
              >
              > The problem is very persistent since in most of the areas I mentioned a
              > man's "worth" is measured by the size of his flock, not be the state of his
              > orchards. So it is the cultural traditions and our ego that make it all
              > just incredibly difficult to change.
              >
              > India's saving graze is the Indian ocean monsoon; otherwise much of it
              > would likely have been desert long ago.
              >
              > Daniel
              >
              > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "greenie6666" <normbeee@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I agree with Nandan, in NF most of anything grown must be returned to
              > the soil, to continue the fertility & to continue to improve it. Fukuoko
              > would only harvest the grain, all other vegetation should be returned to
              > the area.
              > > If the straw is cut or removed eventually the soil will be depleted of
              > it's fertility. Or as Nandan says, it's energy as everything is energy.
              > > I know the cow is sacred in India, but when I have visited there I often
              > wonder how any crops can be grown, with so many stray livestock, cows,
              > sheep & goats. I know the problem is that fencing is very expensive.
              > > So if livestock are allowed to graze an area, the manure should be
              > returned, otherwise over time things will go backwards & the soils
              > fertility will suffer.
              > > ..regards...Norm Australia.
              > >
              > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Harish Amur <harishamur@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > There are only a few of them. The grass in our farm grows rampantly.
              > We are
              > > > not worried about over grazing.
              > > >
              > > > "Energy lost" - I did not understand this part of your comment. How do
              > you
              > > > relate this to fertility of the soil? How do you compare the grazing to
              > > > harvesting? We lose energy in a harvest
              > > >
              > > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@
              > > > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > **
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi Harish,
              > > > >
              > > > > Won't the fertility of soil reduce if the cattle graze your farm?
              > > > > Otherwise you should put back the cow dung and urine back to the
              > soil, but
              > > > > still there is some energy lost.
              > > > >
              > > > > I was planning to have some cows so that fertility from one area can
              > be
              > > > > moved to other. It is all my thinking, may not be 100% true.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Regards,
              > > > >
              > > > > Nandan
              > > > >
              > > > > ________________________________
              > > > > From: Harish Amur <harishamur@>
              > > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:12 PM
              > > > >
              > > > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] NF experiences
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > I was trying to emphasize on the issues a NF farmer has, when his
              > > > > neighbours are not educated about NF. I do not have any issue with
              > cattle,
              > > > > I believe they should eat as much grass as possible. And most cattle
              > > > > restrict their grazing to a field the supervisor wants them to be
              > in. It is
              > > > > more of the supervisor problem.
              > > > >
              > > > > Boovarahan, I am not sure how we can identify the failed seeds even
              > if we
              > > > > made seed balls. It is also quite difficult to make seed balls of
              > certain
              > > > > grains - for ex. mustard.
              > > > >
              > > > > The additional challenge is to locate your crop within the weeds
              > (till such
              > > > > time weeds grow in your NF farm). I am afraid to step into my NF
              > plot that
              > > > > has chickpea, mung etc as I may kill a good plant. Only when they
              > would
              > > > > have grown to a size that makes them easily identifiable, I would
              > venture
              > > > > into this plot.
              > > > >
              > > > > We got some jaggery made out of some of the sugar cane that has been
              > > > > growing in our farm. This is the first time that we are getting
              > jaggery
              > > > > made, so all excited. Personally spent some time to ensure that no
              > chemical
              > > > > was used while it was being made. Not sure how many of the
              > non-Indian folks
              > > > > understand 'jaggery'.
              > > > >
              > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Boovarahan Srinivasan <offtown@
              > > > > >wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > > **
              > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Hi Nandan !
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Fukuoka used seed balls which had just one or two seeds in a ball
              > and the
              > > > > > seed ball density was just right.
              > > > > > This may not be possible with direct scattering of seeds.
              > > > > > You can have a rope marker and just drop a couple of seeds at
              > regular
              > > > > > intervals of , say , one foot.
              > > > > > This may be a good alternative to indiscriminate scattering of
              > seeds.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <
              > > > > > p_k_nandanan@
              > > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > > **
              > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Hi Harish,
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Some people around my farm make a living by keeping cows. So
              > they are
              > > > > > > depending on the nearby farms. As long as the economic
              > differences
              > > > > exists
              > > > > > > these issues are going to be there. I keep on telling them and
              > they
              > > > > will
              > > > > > > hear for some time, again bring the cattles, so it is an ever
              > ending
              > > > > > > circle. Finally I may have to put a wire fencing to avoid this,
              > which I
              > > > > > > wanted avoid.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > This time for my rice, I ended up in sowing more and rice plants
              > came
              > > > > > very
              > > > > > > thickly, initially I was happy that it could crowd out weeds, but
              > > > > later I
              > > > > > > found that rice plants are competing each other and does not
              > become
              > > > > > strong
              > > > > > > plants. So it looks like broadcasting with right density is
              > little
              > > > > > tricky.
              > > > > > > Also finding out how every place is sown also is difficult since
              > we are
              > > > > > > broadcasting above the grass.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Fukuoka san's video shows him broadcasting seeds here and there
              > but it
              > > > > > all
              > > > > > > works out for him well.May be because of seed balls, germination
              > is
              > > > > > better
              > > > > > > and predictable.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Regards,
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Nandan
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > > Boovarahan S
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > Chennai.
              > > > > > 09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nandan Palaparambil
              Ruthie and all, Wish all of you/your family a happy new year !!! Some statements of Fukuoka San from chapter Simply Serve Nature and All Is Well
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 30, 2011
                Ruthie and all,


                Wish all of you/your family a happy new year !!!

                Some statements of Fukuoka San from chapter 'Simply Serve Nature and All Is Well'


                "Extravagance of desire is the fundamental cause which has led the world into its present predicament. Fast rather than slow, more rather than less- this flashy “development” is linked directly to society's impending collapse.

                "The more the farmer increases the scale of his operation, the more his body and spirit are dissipated and the further he falls away from a spiritually satisfying life. A life of small-scale farming may appear to be primitive, but in living such a life, it becomes possible to contemplate the Great Way [the path of spiritual awareness which involves attentiveness to and care for the ordinary activities of daily life]. I believe that if one fathoms deeply one's own neighborhood and the everyday world in which he lives, the greatest of worlds will be revealed".




                Regards,

                Nandan


                ________________________________
                From: Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...>
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 6:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences

                Nandan,

                There are entire deserts in Mongolia the recent appearance of which is due
                to the world demand for cashmere wool.
                Desertification and forest destruction is alarming. They in turn lead to
                species extinction.
                I live far from my native Philippines and I doubt if our farmers there know
                that converting forests into cash crop land is leading to the extinction of
                many indigenous and even endemic species.

                Happy New Year and hope it brings us the awareness we have our destiny in
                our hands.

                RUTHIE



                2011/12/30 Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>

                > **
                >
                >
                > Thanks Daniel for this information. Never new that over grazing produced
                > deserts. Will have to read more about this and Jared Diamond.
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Nandan
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Daniel <dfjager@...>
                > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:35 AM
                > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > This may be very hard to swallow for a great many: But it is livestock
                > that destroyed the Arab peninsula thousands of years ago, it is livestock
                > that destroyed northern Africa and it is livestock today that is destroying
                > eastern Africa. All these areas had, in the past, abundant growth, trees
                > and also rainfall.
                >
                > All livestock introductions follow the same pattern. Cows and horses are
                > brought in first. They eat all the grass. Forests are cut down, or burnt to
                > make more pastures for grazing. As the soil dries out and becomes poorer,
                > sheep replace the cows, and as the sheep devastate the land further (they
                > eat young tree saplings), the land becomes even drier until there is so
                > little fertility left that only goats can be kept.
                > Jared Diamond wrote a lot about this classic decline of land fertility
                > after livestock introductions.
                >
                > The problem is very persistent since in most of the areas I mentioned a
                > man's "worth" is measured by the size of his flock, not be the state of his
                > orchards. So it is the cultural traditions and our ego that make it all
                > just incredibly difficult to change.
                >
                > India's saving graze is the Indian ocean monsoon; otherwise much of it
                > would likely have been desert long ago.
                >
                > Daniel
                >
                >  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "greenie6666" <normbeee@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > I agree with Nandan, in NF most of anything grown must be returned to
                > the soil, to continue the fertility & to continue to improve it. Fukuoko
                > would only harvest the grain, all other vegetation should be returned to
                > the area.
                > > If the straw is cut or removed eventually the soil will be depleted of
                > it's fertility. Or as Nandan says, it's energy as everything is energy.
                > > I know the cow is sacred in India, but when I have visited there I often
                > wonder how any crops can be grown, with so many stray livestock, cows,
                > sheep & goats. I know the problem is that fencing is very expensive.
                > > So if livestock are allowed to graze an area, the manure should be
                > returned, otherwise over time things will go backwards & the soils
                > fertility will suffer.
                > > ..regards...Norm Australia.
                > >
                > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Harish Amur <harishamur@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > There are only a few of them. The grass in our farm grows rampantly.
                > We are
                > > > not worried about over grazing.
                > > >
                > > > "Energy lost" - I did not understand this part of your comment. How do
                > you
                > > > relate this to fertility of the soil? How do you compare the grazing to
                > > > harvesting? We lose energy in a harvest
                > > >
                > > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@
                > > > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > **
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi Harish,
                > > > >
                > > > > Won't the fertility of soil reduce if the cattle graze your farm?
                > > > > Otherwise you should put back the cow dung and urine back to the
                > soil, but
                > > > > still there is some energy lost.
                > > > >
                > > > > I was planning to have some cows so that fertility from one area can
                > be
                > > > > moved to other. It is all my thinking, may not be 100% true.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Regards,
                > > > >
                > > > > Nandan
                > > > >
                > > > > ________________________________
                > > > > From: Harish Amur <harishamur@>
                > > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:12 PM
                > > > >
                > > > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] NF experiences
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > I was trying to emphasize on the issues a NF farmer has, when his
                > > > > neighbours are not educated about NF. I do not have any issue with
                > cattle,
                > > > > I believe they should eat as much grass as possible. And most cattle
                > > > > restrict their grazing to a field the supervisor wants them to be
                > in. It is
                > > > > more of the supervisor problem.
                > > > >
                > > > > Boovarahan, I am not sure how we can identify the failed seeds even
                > if we
                > > > > made seed balls. It is also quite difficult to make seed balls of
                > certain
                > > > > grains - for ex. mustard.
                > > > >
                > > > > The additional challenge is to locate your crop within the weeds
                > (till such
                > > > > time weeds grow in your NF farm). I am afraid to step into my NF
                > plot that
                > > > > has chickpea, mung etc as I may kill a good plant. Only when they
                > would
                > > > > have grown to a size that makes them easily identifiable, I would
                > venture
                > > > > into this plot.
                > > > >
                > > > > We got some jaggery made out of some of the sugar cane that has been
                > > > > growing in our farm. This is the first time that we are getting
                > jaggery
                > > > > made, so all excited. Personally spent some time to ensure that no
                > chemical
                > > > > was used while it was being made. Not sure how many of the
                > non-Indian folks
                > > > > understand 'jaggery'.
                > > > >
                > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Boovarahan Srinivasan <offtown@
                > > > > >wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > **
                > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hi Nandan !
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Fukuoka used seed balls which had just one or two seeds in a ball
                > and the
                > > > > > seed ball density was just right.
                > > > > > This may not be possible with direct scattering of seeds.
                > > > > > You can have a rope marker and just drop a couple of seeds at
                > regular
                > > > > > intervals of , say , one foot.
                > > > > > This may be a good alternative to indiscriminate scattering of
                > seeds.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <
                > > > > > p_k_nandanan@
                > > > > > > wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > > **
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Hi Harish,
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Some people around my farm make a living by keeping cows. So
                > they are
                > > > > > > depending on the nearby farms. As long as the economic
                > differences
                > > > > exists
                > > > > > > these issues are going to be there. I keep on telling them and
                > they
                > > > > will
                > > > > > > hear for some time, again bring the cattles, so it is an ever
                > ending
                > > > > > > circle. Finally I may have to put a wire fencing to avoid this,
                > which I
                > > > > > > wanted avoid.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > This time for my rice, I ended up in sowing more and rice plants
                > came
                > > > > > very
                > > > > > > thickly, initially I was happy that it could crowd out weeds, but
                > > > > later I
                > > > > > > found that rice plants are competing each other and does not
                > become
                > > > > > strong
                > > > > > > plants. So it looks like broadcasting with right density is
                > little
                > > > > > tricky.
                > > > > > > Also finding out how every place is sown also is difficult since
                > we are
                > > > > > > broadcasting above the grass.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Fukuoka san's video shows him broadcasting seeds here and there
                > but it
                > > > > > all
                > > > > > > works out for him well.May be because of seed balls, germination
                > is
                > > > > > better
                > > > > > > and predictable.
                > > > > > >
                >  > > > > > Regards,
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Nandan
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > > Boovarahan S
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > Chennai.
                > > > > > 09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >

                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tp India
                Kudos Nandan,beautiful writeup by you.Happy New year to everyone. ________________________________ From: Nandan Palaparambil To:
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 31, 2011
                  Kudos Nandan,beautiful writeup by you.Happy New year to everyone.


                  ________________________________
                  From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                  To: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com" <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 7:57 AM
                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences


                   
                  Ruthie and all,

                  Wish all of you/your family a happy new year !!!

                  Some statements of Fukuoka San from chapter 'Simply Serve Nature and All Is Well'

                  "Extravagance of desire is the fundamental cause which has led the world into its present predicament. Fast rather than slow, more rather than less- this flashy “development” is linked directly to society's impending collapse.

                  "The more the farmer increases the scale of his operation, the more his body and spirit are dissipated and the further he falls away from a spiritually satisfying life. A life of small-scale farming may appear to be primitive, but in living such a life, it becomes possible to contemplate the Great Way [the path of spiritual awareness which involves attentiveness to and care for the ordinary activities of daily life]. I believe that if one fathoms deeply one's own neighborhood and the everyday world in which he lives, the greatest of worlds will be revealed".

                  Regards,

                  Nandan

                  ________________________________
                  From: Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...>
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 6:22 PM
                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences

                  Nandan,

                  There are entire deserts in Mongolia the recent appearance of which is due
                  to the world demand for cashmere wool.
                  Desertification and forest destruction is alarming. They in turn lead to
                  species extinction.
                  I live far from my native Philippines and I doubt if our farmers there know
                  that converting forests into cash crop land is leading to the extinction of
                  many indigenous and even endemic species.

                  Happy New Year and hope it brings us the awareness we have our destiny in
                  our hands.

                  RUTHIE

                  2011/12/30 Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks Daniel for this information. Never new that over grazing produced
                  > deserts. Will have to read more about this and Jared Diamond.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Nandan
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Daniel <dfjager@...>
                  > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:35 AM
                  > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > This may be very hard to swallow for a great many: But it is livestock
                  > that destroyed the Arab peninsula thousands of years ago, it is livestock
                  > that destroyed northern Africa and it is livestock today that is destroying
                  > eastern Africa. All these areas had, in the past, abundant growth, trees
                  > and also rainfall.
                  >
                  > All livestock introductions follow the same pattern. Cows and horses are
                  > brought in first. They eat all the grass. Forests are cut down, or burnt to
                  > make more pastures for grazing. As the soil dries out and becomes poorer,
                  > sheep replace the cows, and as the sheep devastate the land further (they
                  > eat young tree saplings), the land becomes even drier until there is so
                  > little fertility left that only goats can be kept.
                  > Jared Diamond wrote a lot about this classic decline of land fertility
                  > after livestock introductions.
                  >
                  > The problem is very persistent since in most of the areas I mentioned a
                  > man's "worth" is measured by the size of his flock, not be the state of his
                  > orchards. So it is the cultural traditions and our ego that make it all
                  > just incredibly difficult to change.
                  >
                  > India's saving graze is the Indian ocean monsoon; otherwise much of it
                  > would likely have been desert long ago.
                  >
                  > Daniel
                  >
                  >  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "greenie6666" <normbeee@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I agree with Nandan, in NF most of anything grown must be returned to
                  > the soil, to continue the fertility & to continue to improve it. Fukuoko
                  > would only harvest the grain, all other vegetation should be returned to
                  > the area.
                  > > If the straw is cut or removed eventually the soil will be depleted of
                  > it's fertility. Or as Nandan says, it's energy as everything is energy.
                  > > I know the cow is sacred in India, but when I have visited there I often
                  > wonder how any crops can be grown, with so many stray livestock, cows,
                  > sheep & goats. I know the problem is that fencing is very expensive.
                  > > So if livestock are allowed to graze an area, the manure should be
                  > returned, otherwise over time things will go backwards & the soils
                  > fertility will suffer.
                  > > ..regards...Norm Australia.
                  > >
                  > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Harish Amur <harishamur@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > There are only a few of them. The grass in our farm grows rampantly.
                  > We are
                  > > > not worried about over grazing.
                  > > >
                  > > > "Energy lost" - I did not understand this part of your comment. How do
                  > you
                  > > > relate this to fertility of the soil? How do you compare the grazing to
                  > > > harvesting? We lose energy in a harvest
                  > > >
                  > > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > **
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi Harish,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Won't the fertility of soil reduce if the cattle graze your farm?
                  > > > > Otherwise you should put back the cow dung and urine back to the
                  > soil, but
                  > > > > still there is some energy lost.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I was planning to have some cows so that fertility from one area can
                  > be
                  > > > > moved to other. It is all my thinking, may not be 100% true.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Regards,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Nandan
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ________________________________
                  > > > > From: Harish Amur <harishamur@>
                  > > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:12 PM
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] NF experiences
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I was trying to emphasize on the issues a NF farmer has, when his
                  > > > > neighbours are not educated about NF. I do not have any issue with
                  > cattle,
                  > > > > I believe they should eat as much grass as possible. And most cattle
                  > > > > restrict their grazing to a field the supervisor wants them to be
                  > in. It is
                  > > > > more of the supervisor problem.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Boovarahan, I am not sure how we can identify the failed seeds even
                  > if we
                  > > > > made seed balls. It is also quite difficult to make seed balls of
                  > certain
                  > > > > grains - for ex. mustard.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The additional challenge is to locate your crop within the weeds
                  > (till such
                  > > > > time weeds grow in your NF farm). I am afraid to step into my NF
                  > plot that
                  > > > > has chickpea, mung etc as I may kill a good plant. Only when they
                  > would
                  > > > > have grown to a size that makes them easily identifiable, I would
                  > venture
                  > > > > into this plot.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > We got some jaggery made out of some of the sugar cane that has been
                  > > > > growing in our farm. This is the first time that we are getting
                  > jaggery
                  > > > > made, so all excited. Personally spent some time to ensure that no
                  > chemical
                  > > > > was used while it was being made. Not sure how many of the
                  > non-Indian folks
                  > > > > understand 'jaggery'.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Boovarahan Srinivasan <offtown@
                  > > > > >wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > **
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hi Nandan !
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Fukuoka used seed balls which had just one or two seeds in a ball
                  > and the
                  > > > > > seed ball density was just right.
                  > > > > > This may not be possible with direct scattering of seeds.
                  > > > > > You can have a rope marker and just drop a couple of seeds at
                  > regular
                  > > > > > intervals of , say , one foot.
                  > > > > > This may be a good alternative to indiscriminate scattering of
                  > seeds.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <
                  > > > > > p_k_nandanan@
                  > > > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > > **
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Hi Harish,
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Some people around my farm make a living by keeping cows. So
                  > they are
                  > > > > > > depending on the nearby farms. As long as the economic
                  > differences
                  > > > > exists
                  > > > > > > these issues are going to be there. I keep on telling them and
                  > they
                  > > > > will
                  > > > > > > hear for some time, again bring the cattles, so it is an ever
                  > ending
                  > > > > > > circle. Finally I may have to put a wire fencing to avoid this,
                  > which I
                  > > > > > > wanted avoid.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > This time for my rice, I ended up in sowing more and rice plants
                  > came
                  > > > > > very
                  > > > > > > thickly, initially I was happy that it could crowd out weeds, but
                  > > > > later I
                  > > > > > > found that rice plants are competing each other and does not
                  > become
                  > > > > > strong
                  > > > > > > plants. So it looks like broadcasting with right density is
                  > little
                  > > > > > tricky.
                  > > > > > > Also finding out how every place is sown also is difficult since
                  > we are
                  > > > > > > broadcasting above the grass.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Fukuoka san's video shows him broadcasting seeds here and there
                  > but it
                  > > > > > all
                  > > > > > > works out for him well.May be because of seed balls, germination
                  > is
                  > > > > > better
                  > > > > > > and predictable.
                  > > > > > >
                  >  > > > > > Regards,
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Nandan
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Boovarahan S
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > Chennai.
                  > > > > > 09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >

                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • 倩 冯
                  Sepp holzer s experience Farming with nature http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd4X8oigRKk   His experience demonstrates that natural farming can make big
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 20, 2012
                    Sepp holzer's experience
                    Farming with nature
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd4X8oigRKk
                     
                    His experience demonstrates that natural farming can make big success on big scale farm,too.


                    ________________________________
                    发件人: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                    收件人: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com" <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                    发送日期: 2011年12月30日, 星期五, 下午 9:27
                    主题: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences



                     

                    Ruthie and all,

                    Wish all of you/your family a happy new year !!!

                    Some statements of Fukuoka San from chapter 'Simply Serve Nature and All Is Well'

                    "Extravagance of desire is the fundamental cause which has led the world into its present predicament. Fast rather than slow, more rather than less- this flashy “development” is linked directly to society's impending collapse.

                    "The more the farmer increases the scale of his operation, the more his body and spirit are dissipated and the further he falls away from a spiritually satisfying life. A life of small-scale farming may appear to be primitive, but in living such a life, it becomes possible to contemplate the Great Way [the path of spiritual awareness which involves attentiveness to and care for the ordinary activities of daily life]. I believe that if one fathoms deeply one's own neighborhood and the everyday world in which he lives, the greatest of worlds will be revealed".

                    Regards,

                    Nandan

                    ________________________________
                    From: Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...>
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 6:22 PM
                    Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences

                    Nandan,

                    There are entire deserts in Mongolia the recent appearance of which is due
                    to the world demand for cashmere wool.
                    Desertification and forest destruction is alarming. They in turn lead to
                    species extinction.
                    I live far from my native Philippines and I doubt if our farmers there know
                    that converting forests into cash crop land is leading to the extinction of
                    many indigenous and even endemic species.

                    Happy New Year and hope it brings us the awareness we have our destiny in
                    our hands.

                    RUTHIE

                    2011/12/30 Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks Daniel for this information. Never new that over grazing produced
                    > deserts. Will have to read more about this and Jared Diamond.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > Nandan
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Daniel <dfjager@...>
                    > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:35 AM
                    > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: NF experiences
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > This may be very hard to swallow for a great many: But it is livestock
                    > that destroyed the Arab peninsula thousands of years ago, it is livestock
                    > that destroyed northern Africa and it is livestock today that is destroying
                    > eastern Africa. All these areas had, in the past, abundant growth, trees
                    > and also rainfall.
                    >
                    > All livestock introductions follow the same pattern. Cows and horses are
                    > brought in first. They eat all the grass. Forests are cut down, or burnt to
                    > make more pastures for grazing. As the soil dries out and becomes poorer,
                    > sheep replace the cows, and as the sheep devastate the land further (they
                    > eat young tree saplings), the land becomes even drier until there is so
                    > little fertility left that only goats can be kept.
                    > Jared Diamond wrote a lot about this classic decline of land fertility
                    > after livestock introductions.
                    >
                    > The problem is very persistent since in most of the areas I mentioned a
                    > man's "worth" is measured by the size of his flock, not be the state of his
                    > orchards. So it is the cultural traditions and our ego that make it all
                    > just incredibly difficult to change.
                    >
                    > India's saving graze is the Indian ocean monsoon; otherwise much of it
                    > would likely have been desert long ago.
                    >
                    > Daniel
                    >
                    >  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "greenie6666" <normbeee@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I agree with Nandan, in NF most of anything grown must be returned to
                    > the soil, to continue the fertility & to continue to improve it. Fukuoko
                    > would only harvest the grain, all other vegetation should be returned to
                    > the area.
                    > > If the straw is cut or removed eventually the soil will be depleted of
                    > it's fertility. Or as Nandan says, it's energy as everything is energy.
                    > > I know the cow is sacred in India, but when I have visited there I often
                    > wonder how any crops can be grown, with so many stray livestock, cows,
                    > sheep & goats. I know the problem is that fencing is very expensive.
                    > > So if livestock are allowed to graze an area, the manure should be
                    > returned, otherwise over time things will go backwards & the soils
                    > fertility will suffer.
                    > > ..regards...Norm Australia.
                    > >
                    > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Harish Amur <harishamur@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > There are only a few of them. The grass in our farm grows rampantly.
                    > We are
                    > > > not worried about over grazing.
                    > > >
                    > > > "Energy lost" - I did not understand this part of your comment. How do
                    > you
                    > > > relate this to fertility of the soil? How do you compare the grazing to
                    > > > harvesting? We lose energy in a harvest
                    > > >
                    > > > On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > **
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hi Harish,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Won't the fertility of soil reduce if the cattle graze your farm?
                    > > > > Otherwise you should put back the cow dung and urine back to the
                    > soil, but
                    > > > > still there is some energy lost.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I was planning to have some cows so that fertility from one area can
                    > be
                    > > > > moved to other. It is all my thinking, may not be 100% true.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Regards,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Nandan
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ________________________________
                    > > > > From: Harish Amur <harishamur@>
                    > > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:12 PM
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] NF experiences
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I was trying to emphasize on the issues a NF farmer has, when his
                    > > > > neighbours are not educated about NF. I do not have any issue with
                    > cattle,
                    > > > > I believe they should eat as much grass as possible. And most cattle
                    > > > > restrict their grazing to a field the supervisor wants them to be
                    > in. It is
                    > > > > more of the supervisor problem.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Boovarahan, I am not sure how we can identify the failed seeds even
                    > if we
                    > > > > made seed balls. It is also quite difficult to make seed balls of
                    > certain
                    > > > > grains - for ex. mustard.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The additional challenge is to locate your crop within the weeds
                    > (till such
                    > > > > time weeds grow in your NF farm). I am afraid to step into my NF
                    > plot that
                    > > > > has chickpea, mung etc as I may kill a good plant. Only when they
                    > would
                    > > > > have grown to a size that makes them easily identifiable, I would
                    > venture
                    > > > > into this plot.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > We got some jaggery made out of some of the sugar cane that has been
                    > > > > growing in our farm. This is the first time that we are getting
                    > jaggery
                    > > > > made, so all excited. Personally spent some time to ensure that no
                    > chemical
                    > > > > was used while it was being made. Not sure how many of the
                    > non-Indian folks
                    > > > > understand 'jaggery'.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Boovarahan Srinivasan <offtown@
                    > > > > >wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > **
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hi Nandan !
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Fukuoka used seed balls which had just one or two seeds in a ball
                    > and the
                    > > > > > seed ball density was just right.
                    > > > > > This may not be possible with direct scattering of seeds.
                    > > > > > You can have a rope marker and just drop a couple of seeds at
                    > regular
                    > > > > > intervals of , say , one foot.
                    > > > > > This may be a good alternative to indiscriminate scattering of
                    > seeds.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <
                    > > > > > p_k_nandanan@
                    > > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > **
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Hi Harish,
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Some people around my farm make a living by keeping cows. So
                    > they are
                    > > > > > > depending on the nearby farms. As long as the economic
                    > differences
                    > > > > exists
                    > > > > > > these issues are going to be there. I keep on telling them and
                    > they
                    > > > > will
                    > > > > > > hear for some time, again bring the cattles, so it is an ever
                    > ending
                    > > > > > > circle. Finally I may have to put a wire fencing to avoid this,
                    > which I
                    > > > > > > wanted avoid.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > This time for my rice, I ended up in sowing more and rice plants
                    > came
                    > > > > > very
                    > > > > > > thickly, initially I was happy that it could crowd out weeds, but
                    > > > > later I
                    > > > > > > found that rice plants are competing each other and does not
                    > become
                    > > > > > strong
                    > > > > > > plants. So it looks like broadcasting with right density is
                    > little
                    > > > > > tricky.
                    > > > > > > Also finding out how every place is sown also is difficult since
                    > we are
                    > > > > > > broadcasting above the grass.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Fukuoka san's video shows him broadcasting seeds here and there
                    > but it
                    > > > > > all
                    > > > > > > works out for him well.May be because of seed balls, germination
                    > is
                    > > > > > better
                    > > > > > > and predictable.
                    > > > > > >
                    >  > > > > > Regards,
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Nandan
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Boovarahan S
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > Chennai.
                    > > > > > 09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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