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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Moreover धर्म

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  • Sumant Joshi
    Hi Ruthie, I beg to differ, you just can not translate everything from one language into another. Many times when speaking a word or even a syllable, facial
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 6, 2011
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      Hi Ruthie,
      I beg to differ, you just can not translate 'everything' from one language into another. Many times when speaking a word or even a syllable, facial expressions convey half or more of the meaning. It is like speaking on the telephone and not being able to convey your meaning exactly. I think each word in any language has a very very long cultural history of evolution and unless you are a native speaker and have experienced the social context, you cannot understand what I being said, much less translate it.

      Words have a soul which is timeless.



      Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone


      Warm regards,

      Sumant Joshi
      Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161



      >________________________________
      >From: Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...>
      >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      >Sent: Sunday, 6 November 2011 5:20 AM
      >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Moreover धर्म
      >
      >

      >Hi Jason,
      >
      >Everything can be trranslated.
      >Maybe not always word for word, as what most people think translating is
      >about.
      >In translation you do not translate words but meanings.
      >One Japanese word, for example, can take 100 English words to be
      >translated, but it will be translated.
      >It can take a translator a loong time to grasp a given meaning, but once he
      >gets it he is capable of translating it.
      >
      >best regards,
      >
      >RUTHIE
      >I hold a five-year Sorbonne University degree in technical translation.
      >
      >2011/11/5 Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
      >
      >> **
      >>
      >>
      >> Ooooh, whoops, that sentence came out very overstated myself in written
      >> context appearance,
      >> That:
      >> > An activity, which i have done successfully and learning much from many
      >> mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit myself
      >> to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and this
      >> group's members.
      >> >
      >>
      >> Sorry.
      >> Wording correction:
      >> An activity, getting dirt on my hands (not nature farming sensu Fukuoka,
      >> but rather gardening, farming, plant propagation and plant nursery
      >> working), which i have done successfully and learning much from many
      >> mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit myself
      >> to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and this
      >> group's members.
      >>
      >>
      >> On 06/11/2011, at 9:01 AM, Jason Stewart wrote:
      >>
      >> > Well,
      >> >
      >> > Boovarahan, of course, i have to be really careful with these wordings,
      >> > i have to be/become even more careful, so a minor rephrasing of my
      >> explanation will help you i feel:
      >> >
      >> > 法 (hō), literally the Japanese word long ago chosen to mean Indian धर्म
      >> dhárma (an absolutely central idiom to India)
      >> > my reference documents inform me further tonight that, correcting
      >> earlier use of the word translate, they didn't *translate* Indian धर्म
      >> dhárma, that they chose a Japanese word to mean Indian धर्म dhárma, to
      >> present Indian धर्म dhárma in a Japanese word.
      >> > Dharma is nowadays recognised as a word in English, as per these
      >> official dictionaries' including it. 90% of English is borrowed words from
      >> many languages, most of all Latin and Greek, and many many more languages,
      >> incl. Sanskrit. (Scholarly ref's provided on request)—Now this is getting
      >> off–topic.
      >> >
      >> > Back to on–topic—if this doesn't interest any one of you of the readers,
      >> then please don't read it further. Obviously you don't have to. It is long,
      >> detailed, very specific late master Fukuoka, Masanobu language information;
      >> And, not at all directly practical nature farming with dirt on ones hands.
      >> An activity, which i have done successfully and learning much from many
      >> mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit myself
      >> to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and this
      >> group's members. If surprisingly any of you don't do that at all yet, then
      >> please, o please, get outdoors away from this small screen and please
      >> start. You won't feel what i'm writing about or get any value from it if
      >> you haven't yet achieved really getting your hands very dirty in our earth,
      >> really getting down and dirty as a fully human participant member of nature.
      >> > Remembering, i'm discussing Nature/Spontaneous/Natural Farming 自然農法
      >> (shizen nōhō),
      >> > in particular the 法 (hō) word of that.
      >> >
      >> > From one of my dictionaries, the Japanese–English/English–Japanese, a
      >> direct copy:
      >> >
      >> > "
      >> > dharma/dάːrmə/
      >> > 名 詞•U〘ヒンズー教仏教〙
      >> > 1 法, (宇宙人間などの)本体, 本性.
      >> > 2 教法[戒律](に従うこと).
      >> > 3 正しい行い;徳.
      >> > 4 仏教;仏陀(ぶっだ)の教え.
      >> > "
      >> > Japanese–English/English–Japanese from dictionary: プログレッシブ英和中辞典/和英中辞典
      >> Copyright 2010 Shogakukan Inc.
      >> >
      >> > Digital Dictionary of Buddhism
      >> > And online, the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism, limited to Buddhism, out
      >> of all of Indian religions/philosophies: Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and
      >> many more, so on.
      >> > Buddhism, which is the most relevant Indian–origin–philosophy which late
      >> master Fukuoka, Masanobu writes building upon, amongst his writings
      >> building on Taoism, Christianity and many critiques of many western
      >> philosophers. Building on; People say late master Fukuoka, Masanobu's
      >> philosophy, is humbly–so, modestly–so, kind–of beyond Buddhism, using this
      >> philosophy for writing of nature/spontaneous/natural farming. He has
      >> formally published critique(s) of Japanese Zen Buddhism in the Japanese
      >> journal "Quarterly Buddism".
      >> > So see the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism entry:
      >> >
      >> > –> http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?q=%e6%b3%95
      >> > Login, to this buddhism-dict website, as: guest (username): [without any
      >> password].
      >> >
      >> > Quotation:
      >> > "
      >> > 法
      >> >
      >> > Pronunciations
      >> > [py] fǎ
      >> > [wg] fa
      >> > [hg] 법
      >> > [mc] beop
      >> > [mr] pŏp
      >> > [kk] ホウ
      >> > [hb] hō
      >> > [qn] pháp
      >> >
      >> > Basic Meaning: dharma
      >> > Senses:
      >> >
      >> > Rendered into English variously according to the context as: truth,
      >> reality; phenomenon, element, constituent, (mental) factor; things, quality
      >> (Tib. chos; Pāli dhamma). The word dharma is originally derived from the
      >> Indic root dhr, with the meaning of 'that which preserves or maintains,'
      >> especially that which preserves or maintains human activity. The term has a
      >> wide range of meanings in Buddhism, but the foremost meaning is that of the
      >> teaching delivered by the Buddha, which is fully aligned with the
      >> reality-principle. Thus, truth, reality, true principle, law, (Skt. satya;
      >> Tib. chos). It connotes Buddhism as the perfect religion. Dharma is also
      >> the second component among the Three Treasures (triratna) 佛法僧, and in the
      >> sense of dharmakāya 法身 it approaches the Western idea of 'spiritual.'
      >> [cmuller; source(s): Soothill, Hirakawa, YBh-Ind, M-W, JEBD, Yokoi]
      >> >
      >> > It is used in the sense of 一切 all things, or anything small or great,
      >> visible or invisible, real or unreal, affairs, truth, principle, method,
      >> concrete things, abstract ideas, etc. Dharma is described as that which has
      >> entity and bears its own attributes. It is in the sense of attribute,
      >> quality, characteristic quality, factor, etc. that this term is commonly
      >> used in Indian scholastic works to fully detail the gamut of possible
      >> cognitive experiences. Abhidharma schools such as Sarvâstivāda enumerated
      >> seventy-five dharmas 七十五法, which the Yogâcāra school categorized the events
      >> of the experiential world into one hundred types of phenomena 百法. Yogâcāras
      >> argued that the lack of inherent identity in these dharmas is not duly
      >> recognized by the practitioners of the two vehicles 二乘, and that this level
      >> of awareness is a distinctive characteristic of the contemplations of the
      >> bodhisattvas 菩薩. The lack of perception of the emptiness of dharmas 法無我 is
      >> the key to the formation of the cognitive hindrances 所知障. [cmuller;
      >> source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
      >> >
      >> > Among the six cognitive objects 六塵, dharmas are equivalent to
      >> 'concepts,' being the objects of the thinking consciousness 意識. [cmuller;
      >> source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
      >> >
      >> > In Buddhist logic 因明, the dharmin is the property that one is trying to
      >> prove concerning the thesis 宗 (pakṣa) — usually found in the phrase as a
      >> predicate or verb object (後陳、後說, etc.). For a systematic overview including
      >> this term, see 能立. [cmuller; source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
      >> >
      >> > Other meanings include:
      >> > custom, habit, standard of behavior; social order, social pattern;
      >> > that which should be done; occupation, duty, obligation;
      >> > goodness, good action, virtue; religious duty;
      >> > original essence, original nature.
      >> > [cmuller; source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
      >> >
      >> > Dharma is transliterated as 達磨; 曇無, 曇摩; 達摩, 達謨. (Skt. śasana; vidhi;
      >> bhāva; *aṅga, artha, ākāra, āgama, ālambana, kāraṇa, krama, guṇa, dravya,
      >> dharama, dharma-jñāna,dharmatā, dharmatva, dharma-deśanā, dharman,
      >> dharma-naya, dharma-paryāya, dharma-prakṛti, dharmamaya, dharma-śabda,
      >> dharma-śasana, dharma-saṃjñaka, dharma-stha,dharma-svabhāva, dharmâkhya
      >> dharmaiśvarya, dharmôpavicāra, dharmya, dhārma, dhārmika, dhārmya, naya,
      >> naya-dharma, pakṣa, pariṣkāra, prakāra, prakṛti, pratipad,pratisaṃyukta,
      >> prayoga, pravacana, prasaṅgatva, buddha-dharma, bhava, bhāvin, yukti,
      >> vastu, vidhāna, śabda, śikṣā, saṃgati, sat, sad-dharma, sthāna) [cmuller;
      >> source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
      >> >
      >> > Also in: CJKV-E
      >> > "
      >> >
      >> > Dharma is a Dharma!
      >> > An overwhelmingly rich idiom (kind of word).
      >> > It can't be translated; Not in any sense fully or essentially or in any
      >> way do it justice;
      >> > Agree with you, each of us has to feel it in our own while keeping our
      >> feet in the earth—at the same time.
      >> > Not describe it, not abstract it, in descriptions of it from outside of
      >> feeling it. Describing it, abstracting it, is even less, less meaningful,
      >> than translating it into words with insider's resonating meaning in another
      >> language.
      >> >
      >> > And, time immemorial indeed.
      >> > The Oxford English Dictionary, entry i previously quoted, didn't do too
      >> badly, better than most of us, but never can it be perfect, as anything
      >> anywhere, in really translating to resonate with native English speakers'
      >> idioms, and common understanding of reality; Rather than treating it,
      >> dharma, as some exotic, non-resonating, foreign other (meaning).
      >> >
      >> > Again thanks, for your effort making the interesting reply.
      >> >
      >> > 'biggest best true nature' to every person.
      >> >
      >> > Mr. Jason Stewart
      >> >
      >> > On 05/11/2011, at 12:12 PM, Boovarahan Srinivasan wrote:
      >> >
      >> > > Jason !
      >> > >
      >> > > This is offtopic to Nf but still intersting.
      >> > > Dharma is a Sanskrit word and Sanskrit is a lanuage used from time
      >> > > immemorial.
      >> > > It is said to be the language of the Gods ( Deva Bhasha ).
      >> > > The word Dharma has so many menaings according to the context in which
      >> it
      >> > > is used but a broader meaning is "way of living" or " "righteous way of
      >> > > living " or "its nature" .
      >> > > A small example:
      >> > > A tiger chases a deer and the deer seeks asylum with a hermit.
      >> > > Now think of what happens if the hermit stops the tiger from killing
      >> the
      >> > > deer .
      >> > > One way he is saving the deer's life but at the same time he
      >> interrupts the
      >> > > way of the tiger in getting its food by killing the deer and make it
      >> > > starve. If he allows the tiger to have its prey , then he gets the sin
      >> of
      >> > > not protecting the weak .
      >> > > Killing the deer by tiger is its dharma, but the question of saving or
      >> not
      >> > > saving the deer is debatable to the hermit. But his dharma should be to
      >> > > protect the weak who had sought asylum and thus the sin of making the
      >> tiger
      >> > > starve wouldn't be on him.
      >> > >
      >> > > You can have a broad view of the meaning od dharma in this example.
      >> There
      >> > > can not be a right translation of Sankrit words to English or any other
      >> > > language. One has to learn it and feel and understand the meaning .
      >> > >
      >> > > Boovarahan S
      >> > > Chennai.
      >> > > 09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)
      >> > >
      >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> >
      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jason Stewart
      I salute your life, and motherhood, as i will always do, and have i remember discussed with you beforehand. Not wrong i work, sometimes, very hard to be, am
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 6, 2011
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        I salute your life, and motherhood, as i will always do, and have i remember discussed with you beforehand.
        Not wrong i work, sometimes, very hard to be, am not right by my own standards. Calling me righteous is wilful offence. Dharma, in one major meaning means right living—that's a good aspiration, not to be called righteous.
        Late master Fukuoka Masanobu's writing: 自然農法 わら一本の革命 —have you read his original Japanese—just a factual question before any more said?

        On 06/11/2011, at 7:21 PM, Ruthie Aquino wrote:

        > Dear Jason,
        > I di not mean to intimidate, I just thought I would add more weight to my
        > reply in mentioning my degree. Now I am regretting it already, faced with
        > somebody as righteous as you.
        >
        > You know...about my degree... I earned it with much effort because you see
        > I am a brown-skinned non-French speaking woman from the bundoks called the
        > Philippines. After graduation in Paris I worked freelance for a year and
        > had many happy clients, then I ditched the whole thing...to become a
        > housewife. My sister in Sydney says I am crazy, she disparagingly calls me
        > a "mere housewife". She is rich I am not.
        > But you know why I became a housewife after all those years of sleepless
        > nights and near under-nutrition as a very thin, working student? I WANTED
        > TO RAISE MY FOUR CHILDREN PROPERLY. That's why. Now they tell me thanks
        > Mummy for the best childhood ever.
        >
        > You speak of grammar and syntax and all. Why?
        > Of course I make an effort, it is some kind of professional deformation.
        > You can't tell a natural farmer not to natural farm, can you? In the same
        > way you can't tell me not to make an effort with the technical side of
        > language.
        > However never will you hear me criticize soemone else or the way he writes
        > or speaks.
        >
        > Getting hands dirty? I do too!
        > Now I'm off, to some dirty work.
        >
        > See you.
        > RUTHIE
        >
        > 2011/11/6 Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > OK,
        > > off–topic:
        > > i hear your achievements and universal–translation–idea;
        > > What practical benefit has that proud qualification (credential) brought.
        > > I have some high quality University training, but what benefit, in
        > > isolation from all my other life experiences, has it had through my
        > > actions, a little. My life experiences much more benefit. i'm not fooled by
        > > mere credentials, i emphasise *mere* credentials. What they're combined
        > > with in life experiences seems to make much more difference. The well
        > > established cliche, that many extremely highly credentialed people, i know
        > > many (degrees,masters,professors), "rest on their laurels", once they get
        > > their degree award. 1930s academic high achiever in Japan, late master
        > > (sensei) Fukuoka Masanobu is amongst the finest examples of those who
        > > didn't remain employed in their professional–hard–work and "resting on
        > > their laurels" (narrow–specialisation) job. He went out and took on very
        > > much harder work again, much more ambitious work, much more broad a
        > > discipline, much more very challenging learning through so many years of
        > > life after university finished. The much bigger picture university of life.
        > > He resigned, the next day after he recognised there was much more important
        > > (work) benefit to give to our earth. He has. He got off his laurels and
        > > advanced us all. I like to think you did/do the same Ruthie Aquino, but
        > > while it's useful information that you've that translation degree, that
        > > doesn't say to me whether or not you did or do. I remember we chatted about
        > > how you were very busy being Mum, bringing up a family, which is completely
        > > different a topic about you which i acknowledge. That however, isn't saying
        > > what your translation achievements benefitted.
        > >
        > > Also, that intimidates a little bit, because you probably are very
        > > concerned about technically correct grammar, syntax, as well as very much
        > > on conservative, established semantics. These are relatively more academic
        > > for me, to the degree of emphasis, not to the degree of absolutes. I
        > > deliberately play "fast and loose" with the English language, grammar,
        > > punctuation, awfully long sentences,way too many clauses, to create
        > > creative tensions, creative disruption of bad thinking old habits, and to
        > > give the sense of freedom to the many non-first language English speakers,
        > > from feeling intimidated that they need to be correct and very concerned
        > > about their correct writing here. Very long sentences only get read by
        > > those who really feel interested, for example. I'm concerned about these
        > > academic translating concerns too, to a lesser degree than linguists and
        > > academic translators that i personally know here, and presume are like you.
        > > I'm concerned much more with dialogue engagement with culture sharers like
        > > Boovarahan and all in Japan and India. Sharing the perceptions and the true
        > > feel, of what late master Fukuoka, Masanobu means, in his own original
        > > Japanese writing which i'm reading oh too slowly and carefully—in its
        > > Japanese cosmological world view—with much help from my personal Japanese
        > > friends. Right now i'm dividing up sentence clauses, separating them into
        > > different sentences thereby shortening each sentence. So your credentials'
        > > intimidation is having a good effect on me by my choice, even as i'm a
        > > little bit intimidated by it. I'm concerned with the scientific method of
        > > repeatedly verifying, in dialogue with sharers like Boovarahan, that they
        > > have the same information–meanings from late Master Fukuoka Masanobu's
        > > original Japanese writing as i have, at least, and as my Japanese contacts
        > > have. Those of my Japanese (occasional) contacts who are
        > > professional+personal associates of late master Fukuoka Masanobu. For
        > > instance, his associates who are *the* translators (& ongoing researchers)
        > > of his books and iroha (song verses) to English (Mieko, M. Siegel, Shojaku,
        > > L. Korn, T. Kurosawa.), to Greek (Panos), etcetera.
        > > My emphasis is different from professional translators, like i presume you
        > > would be. Mine is deeply personal and philosophical. So, i bring some
        > > different value from my very slow translation. My deeply personal and
        > > philosophical..., more than words can convey. So, i discover some points of
        > > translation which very efficient, quick professional translators will not.
        > > Also, there are, of course, different calibres of translators too, of the
        > > same bodys' of published Japanese works. Professional Alfred Birnbaum
        > > translated Fukuoka philosophy: 『無 神の革命』. He's a very high calibre Japanese
        > > to English translator—translating Murakami—but this, his Fukuoka
        > > translation, book: "Mu 1: The God Revolution" is not widely available. So,
        > > i haven't got to read it yet. Our group here has discussed it years
        > > ago—some members having it and sharing with us all, about it.
        > > I bring also a deeply held personal appreciation of cultural awareness,
        > > very different from English cosmologies, of Koories, the first Australians
        > > (Australian Aborigines), 50,000 years' cultures. Deepening all of my
        > > awarenesses of all the rest of world's different cultures, eg.:
        > > Tibetan—lived as family with Tibetan families
        > > Jewish—grew up with Jewish friends, enjoying Shabbat sleep over,
        > > Bar-mitzvahs,...
        > > grew up since 3 with Koorie friends (my friend and his family), and many
        > > more Koorie friends since Uni. days & work together
        > > worked professionally with many Indian & Bangladeshi professional people
        > > etcetera
        > >
        > > In life, i haven't had the opportunity to get a uni degree in translation
        > > (technical).
        > > Since nearly 13 years ago, i've a heart —and—soul deep connection in
        > > Japan.
        > > Now, since then, much scholarly hours of study, and very kind, deep
        > > practical training of me by my many native Japanese friends over many
        > > years, of Japanese language.
        > > Therefore, i translate with very strong motivation, oh too slowly and
        > > carefully, something a professional person, *merely* professional, i
        > > emphasise *merely* professional, getting paid to do technically would never
        > > do – i'm continuing learning the cosmology, whole world view, ongoing
        > > learning and thinking in Japanese. Something, that *merely* professional
        > > translators are required to do only to a degree. Which on the other hand,
        > > the highest calibre professional translators, like Birnbaum, and some
        > > people in cross–cultural personal relationships who choose to do so too, do
        > > to a very different much greater degree—like Birnbaum virtually like a
        > > native Japanese philosopher/poet/translator and a native English one too.
        > > These very rare, connoisseur people, really amaze and inspire me. I'm not
        > > fooled by *mere*, i emphasise *mere*, University qualifications, what
        > > benefit we have for everyone else, with each of our qualifications, is
        > > important to me. eg. His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Chenrezig, the
        > > Boddhisatva of Compassion—having chosen rebirth for many times, to come
        > > back to benefit the rest of life. Imagine the loss to us all if Dalai Lama'
        > > had chosen to rest on his laurels, his title, at some point of choice about
        > > the next rebirth. I can't rest on my university training, laurels, and i
        > > hope and like to think that you have not done so, too.
        > >
        > >
        > > 'biggest best true nature' to every person.
        > >
        > > Mr. Jason Stewart
        > >
        > > On 06/11/2011, at 10:50 AM, Ruthie Aquino wrote:
        > >
        > > > Hi Jason,
        > > >
        > > > Everything can be trranslated.
        > > > Maybe not always word for word, as what most people think translating is
        > > > about.
        > > > In translation you do not translate words but meanings.
        > > > One Japanese word, for example, can take 100 English words to be
        > > > translated, but it will be translated.
        > > > It can take a translator a loong time to grasp a given meaning, but once
        > > he
        > > > gets it he is capable of translating it.
        > > >
        > > > best regards,
        > > >
        > > > RUTHIE
        > > > I hold a five-year Sorbonne University degree in technical translation.
        > > >
        > > > 2011/11/5 Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
        > > >
        > > > > **
        > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Ooooh, whoops, that sentence came out very overstated myself in written
        > > > > context appearance,
        > > > > That:
        > > > > > An activity, which i have done successfully and learning much from
        > > many
        > > > > mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit
        > > myself
        > > > > to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and
        > > this
        > > > > group's members.
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Sorry.
        > > > > Wording correction:
        > > > > An activity, getting dirt on my hands (not nature farming sensu
        > > Fukuoka,
        > > > > but rather gardening, farming, plant propagation and plant nursery
        > > > > working), which i have done successfully and learning much from many
        > > > > mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit
        > > myself
        > > > > to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and
        > > this
        > > > > group's members.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > On 06/11/2011, at 9:01 AM, Jason Stewart wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > Well,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Boovarahan, of course, i have to be really careful with these
        > > wordings,
        > > > > > i have to be/become even more careful, so a minor rephrasing of my
        > > > > explanation will help you i feel:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > 法 (hō), literally the Japanese word long ago chosen to mean Indian
        > > धर्म
        > > > > dhárma (an absolutely central idiom to India)
        > > > > > my reference documents inform me further tonight that, correcting
        > > > > earlier use of the word translate, they didn't *translate* Indian धर्म
        > > > > dhárma, that they chose a Japanese word to mean Indian धर्म dhárma, to
        > > > > present Indian धर्म dhárma in a Japanese word.
        > > > > > Dharma is nowadays recognised as a word in English, as per these
        > > > > official dictionaries' including it. 90% of English is borrowed words
        > > from
        > > > > many languages, most of all Latin and Greek, and many many more
        > > languages,
        > > > > incl. Sanskrit. (Scholarly ref's provided on request)—Now this is
        > > getting
        > > > > off–topic.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Back to on–topic...
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jason Stewart
        A Q implied is: Did i become aware of late master Fukuoka, Masanobu s books, or come to fall into deep connection with Japan, first. Which came first, for me?
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 6, 2011
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          A Q implied is:
          Did i become aware of late master Fukuoka, Masanobu's books,
          or come to fall into deep connection with Japan,
          first.
          Which came first, for me?

          '
          i fell in love with Ryoko, a Japanese woman and
          nearly married & moved there for the rest of my life (the plan) from
          Australia some 13 years ago.
          With my heart and soul i pursued the Japanese cosmology(s), customs,
          cultural concepts and many language idioms, wanting very much to
          fully love and fully understand my prospective wife.
          Do-nothing, No-action, are good (no criticism), but are not the best ways,
          neither are they the sum total of ways, i've heard of to
          translate these japanese idiom expressions, a paragraph would be
          better. For example see David Suzuki and Keibo Oiwa 's book:
          "The Japan we never Knew".
          Some translations into English that are in my opinion better than
          "Do-nothing" and "No-Action" for people who grew up in
          english-speaking or western european societies, are:
          unconditioned/uncreated/undomesticated, etc.
          What i mean is that to understand two (or more) societies really well,
          fully well, it is necessary to "grow up" in both (or each) of
          these societies sometime in one's life if not simultaneously�after i'd
          grown up in Australia to the age of 28,
          i had deeply personal, heartfelt and specially good teachers for bringing me up
          as a new found little bit Japanese person for the weeks i lived there with my
          then 27yr old girlfriend, in her family home, her parental family home,
          those teachers being:
          � my girlfriend, her family�mother, father, sister, sister's husband, her many friends,
          � particularly her buddhist father put so much heart, soul and energy into
          conversing with me, speaking English especially for with me, which wasn't a language
          he spoke at all a few weeks beforehand,
          �my friend, an Australian 35 year husband of a Japanese woman
          in Australia and their extended Japanese�Australian family with granchildren,
          etc.
          So, with the interpretations and cultural richnesses of both societies
          added to them,
          late master Fukuoka Masanobu's english translation books are very rich in meaning -
          i've read them all, that is all four of the widely available ones,
          with great delight and i eagerly await reading One-Straw Revolution Recapitulation,
          that was carefully translated to English by his appointed translator, and scrutinised by him,
          last master Fukuoka, Masanobu himself, ***after*** his worldwide travels and personal experiences in the 'West'. Cheers
          '

          That was an edited, corrected and slightly improved, version of my English writing here,
          in our little group of 23rd May 2003,
          see the original here:

          -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/message/2675

          My late father died, my successful mountain forest farm organic vegetable farmer father,
          died of a long beforehand mouth cancer, just a month after i returned home to Australia from Japan,
          full immersion in Japan, 11 years ago, in year 2000.
          He, my late father, left me specially his weathered farm copy of the original 1st edition English "The One�Straw Revolution".
          I didn't read it, in the grief of his death, until many months later in late 2000. I had relocated my home-base from Melbourne city suburbs, and professional career, to his farm 3 months after his death, needing to protect the farm, and house he built from unsympathetic other family members, who expressed interest only in selling it all, the farm, house and all, off in a fire sale for quick money.

          So i fell in deeply in love with Ryoko, then with all the best, richest aspects of family, society, culture, history, technologies, ofuro, and many more aspects of Japan life,
          before i had even heard of late master Fukuoka, Masanobu.


          'biggest best true nature' to every person.
          Salut!

          Mr. Jason Stewart


          On 06/11/2011, at 3:14 PM, Boovarahan Srinivasan wrote:
          ...
          > Like this , I think many languages
          > have their own specialities which can be enjoyed only in that language but
          > not in translations. so it follows that , translation can come closer ,
          > closer only, to the original text. I think this could be one of the reasons
          > why you learned Japanese.
          ...

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nandan Palaparambil
          Hi Jason, I like that part of the mail where you are asking people to get their hands dirty by working in nature. I feel relaxed to the core, after working on
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 6, 2011
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            Hi Jason,

            I like that part of the mail where you are asking people to get their hands dirty by working in nature. I feel relaxed to the core, after working on the farm from morning to evening - cutting the grass, planting some seeds, mulching with coconut leaves etc..If you just manage the farm activities with people around, the real fun is not there, there can be people to help you, but we should get our hands dirty (or more cleaner) with soil.



            Regards,

            Nandan



            ________________________________
            From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:31 AM
            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Moreover धर्म


             
            Well,

            Boovarahan, of course, i have to be really careful with these wordings,
            i have to be/become even more careful, so a minor rephrasing of my explanation will help you i feel:

            法 (hō), literally the Japanese word long ago chosen to mean Indian धर्म dhárma (an absolutely central idiom to India)
            my reference documents inform me further tonight that, correcting earlier use of the word translate, they didn't *translate* Indian धर्म dhárma, that they chose a Japanese word to mean Indian धर्म dhárma, to present Indian धर्म dhárma in a Japanese word.
            Dharma is nowadays recognised as a word in English, as per these official dictionaries' including it. 90% of English is borrowed words from many languages, most of all Latin and Greek, and many many more languages, incl. Sanskrit. (Scholarly ref's provided on request)—Now this is getting off–topic.

            Back to on–topic—if this doesn't interest any one of you of the readers, then please don't read it further. Obviously you don't have to. It is long, detailed, very specific late master Fukuoka, Masanobu language information; And, not at all directly practical nature farming with dirt on ones hands. An activity, which i have done successfully and learning much from many mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit myself to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and this group's members. If surprisingly any of you don't do that at all yet, then please, o please, get outdoors away from this small screen and please start. You won't feel what i'm writing about or get any value from it if you haven't yet achieved really getting your hands very dirty in our earth, really getting down and dirty as a fully human participant member of nature.
            Remembering, i'm discussing Nature/Spontaneous/Natural Farming 自然農法 (shizen nōhō),
            in particular the 法 (hō) word of that.

            From one of my dictionaries, the Japanese–English/English–Japanese, a direct copy:

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Boovarahan Srinivasan
            Nandan ! You r grt. Whenever I try to do some farm work,that too very minimal work , I get tired soon. This is because of my sedentary life style and travel to
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 6, 2011
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              Nandan !

              You r grt. Whenever I try to do some farm work,that too very minimal work ,
              I get tired soon.
              This is because of my sedentary life style and travel to my native place
              over 300 KMs.
              Never had I had the luxury of working in / with nature leisurely , with
              much time at my disposal.
              Hope I get that opportunity in the near future.

              On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...
              > wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Hi Jason,
              >
              > I like that part of the mail where you are asking people to get their
              > hands dirty by working in nature. I feel relaxed to the core, after working
              > on the farm from morning to evening - cutting the grass, planting some
              > seeds, mulching with coconut leaves etc..If you just manage the farm
              > activities with people around, the real fun is not there, there can be
              > people to help you, but we should get our hands dirty (or more cleaner)
              > with soil.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Nandan
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
              > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:31 AM
              >
              > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Moreover धर्म
              >
              >
              > Well,
              >
              > Boovarahan, of course, i have to be really careful with these wordings,
              > i have to be/become even more careful, so a minor rephrasing of my
              > explanation will help you i feel:
              >
              > 法 (hō), literally the Japanese word long ago chosen to mean Indian धर्म
              > dhárma (an absolutely central idiom to India)
              > my reference documents inform me further tonight that, correcting earlier
              > use of the word translate, they didn't *translate* Indian धर्म dhárma, that
              > they chose a Japanese word to mean Indian धर्म dhárma, to present Indian
              > धर्म dhárma in a Japanese word.
              > Dharma is nowadays recognised as a word in English, as per these official
              > dictionaries' including it. 90% of English is borrowed words from many
              > languages, most of all Latin and Greek, and many many more languages, incl.
              > Sanskrit. (Scholarly ref's provided on request)—Now this is getting
              > off–topic.
              >
              > Back to on–topic—if this doesn't interest any one of you of the readers,
              > then please don't read it further. Obviously you don't have to. It is long,
              > detailed, very specific late master Fukuoka, Masanobu language information;
              > And, not at all directly practical nature farming with dirt on ones hands.
              > An activity, which i have done successfully and learning much from many
              > mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit myself
              > to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and this
              > group's members. If surprisingly any of you don't do that at all yet, then
              > please, o please, get outdoors away from this small screen and please
              > start. You won't feel what i'm writing about or get any value from it if
              > you haven't yet achieved really getting your hands very dirty in our earth,
              > really getting down and dirty as a fully human participant member of nature.
              > Remembering, i'm discussing Nature/Spontaneous/Natural Farming 自然農法
              > (shizen nōhō),
              > in particular the 法 (hō) word of that.
              >
              > From one of my dictionaries, the Japanese–English/English–Japanese, a
              > direct copy:
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >



              --
              Boovarahan S
              Chennai.
              09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ruthie Aquino
              Hi dear SUmant! As I said, if a translator took the time to understand the original language he can translate everything into his native tongue. The problem
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 7, 2011
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                Hi dear SUmant!

                As I said, if a translator took the time to understand the original
                language he can translate everything into his native tongue.
                The problem is, it may take him centuries to understand what a specific
                meaning in the original language is. But then, are there many men who live
                hundreds of years? So, if a man can learn an ideawith centuries of
                weight in his tongue in the space of his childhood or adulthood in other
                words his lifetime, then a translator can try the same.
                It does not mean the translator will succeed, but if he had the time and
                if he made an effort he would.
                Fukuoka sensei spent decades experimenting so that we after him can
                immediately partake of his experience. We do not need to spend the same
                forty or so years that he did to use his example in our own attempts at
                natural farming.
                If you include intonation, facial expression, etc. in the story, then it is
                no longer translation but interpretation. Translation is written and
                interpretation is oral.
                To return to translation...if dharma were so deep a concept I doubt if a
                single native speaker could himself express all of its meaning in a book,
                in his native tongue.

                Have a nice day dear Sumant.
                RUTHIE




                2011/11/6 Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>

                > **
                >
                >
                > Hi Ruthie,
                > I beg to differ, you just can not translate 'everything' from one language
                > into another. Many times when speaking a word or even a syllable, facial
                > expressions convey half or more of the meaning. It is like speaking on the
                > telephone and not being able to convey your meaning exactly. I think each
                > word in any language has a very very long cultural history of evolution and
                > unless you are a native speaker and have experienced the social context,
                > you cannot understand what I being said, much less translate it.
                >
                > Words have a soul which is timeless.
                >
                > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
                >
                > Warm regards,
                >
                > Sumant Joshi
                > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
                >
                > >________________________________
                > >From: Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...>
                > >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                > >Sent: Sunday, 6 November 2011 5:20 AM
                > >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Moreover धर्म
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >Hi Jason,
                > >
                > >Everything can be trranslated.
                > >Maybe not always word for word, as what most people think translating is
                > >about.
                > >In translation you do not translate words but meanings.
                > >One Japanese word, for example, can take 100 English words to be
                > >translated, but it will be translated.
                > >It can take a translator a loong time to grasp a given meaning, but once
                > he
                > >gets it he is capable of translating it.
                > >
                > >best regards,
                > >
                > >RUTHIE
                > >I hold a five-year Sorbonne University degree in technical translation.
                > >
                > >2011/11/5 Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
                > >
                > >> **
                >
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> Ooooh, whoops, that sentence came out very overstated myself in written
                > >> context appearance,
                > >> That:
                > >> > An activity, which i have done successfully and learning much from
                > many
                > >> mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit myself
                > >> to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and
                > this
                > >> group's members.
                > >> >
                > >>
                > >> Sorry.
                > >> Wording correction:
                > >> An activity, getting dirt on my hands (not nature farming sensu Fukuoka,
                > >> but rather gardening, farming, plant propagation and plant nursery
                > >> working), which i have done successfully and learning much from many
                > >> mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit myself
                > >> to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and
                > this
                > >> group's members.
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> On 06/11/2011, at 9:01 AM, Jason Stewart wrote:
                > >>
                > >> > Well,
                > >> >
                > >> > Boovarahan, of course, i have to be really careful with these
                > wordings,
                > >> > i have to be/become even more careful, so a minor rephrasing of my
                > >> explanation will help you i feel:
                > >> >
                > >> > 法 (hō), literally the Japanese word long ago chosen to mean Indian
                > धर्म
                > >> dhárma (an absolutely central idiom to India)
                > >> > my reference documents inform me further tonight that, correcting
                > >> earlier use of the word translate, they didn't *translate* Indian धर्म
                > >> dhárma, that they chose a Japanese word to mean Indian धर्म dhárma, to
                > >> present Indian धर्म dhárma in a Japanese word.
                > >> > Dharma is nowadays recognised as a word in English, as per these
                > >> official dictionaries' including it. 90% of English is borrowed words
                > from
                > >> many languages, most of all Latin and Greek, and many many more
                > languages,
                > >> incl. Sanskrit. (Scholarly ref's provided on request)—Now this is
                > getting
                > >> off–topic.
                > >> >
                > >> > Back to on–topic—if this doesn't interest any one of you of the
                > readers,
                > >> then please don't read it further. Obviously you don't have to. It is
                > long,
                > >> detailed, very specific late master Fukuoka, Masanobu language
                > information;
                > >> And, not at all directly practical nature farming with dirt on ones
                > hands.
                > >> An activity, which i have done successfully and learning much from many
                > >> mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit myself
                > >> to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and
                > this
                > >> group's members. If surprisingly any of you don't do that at all yet,
                > then
                > >> please, o please, get outdoors away from this small screen and please
                > >> start. You won't feel what i'm writing about or get any value from it if
                > >> you haven't yet achieved really getting your hands very dirty in our
                > earth,
                > >> really getting down and dirty as a fully human participant member of
                > nature.
                > >> > Remembering, i'm discussing Nature/Spontaneous/Natural Farming 自然農法
                > >> (shizen nōhō),
                > >> > in particular the 法 (hō) word of that.
                > >> >
                > >> > From one of my dictionaries, the Japanese–English/English–Japanese, a
                > >> direct copy:
                > >> >
                > >> > "
                > >> > dharma/dάːrmə/
                >
                > >> > 名 詞•U〘ヒンズー教仏教〙
                > >> > 1 法, (宇宙人間などの)本体, 本性.
                > >> > 2 教法[戒律](に従うこと).
                > >> > 3 正しい行い;徳.
                > >> > 4 仏教;仏陀(ぶっだ)の教え.
                > >> > "
                > >> > Japanese–English/English–Japanese from dictionary: プログレッシブ英和中辞典/和英中辞典
                > >> Copyright 2010 Shogakukan Inc.
                > >> >
                > >> > Digital Dictionary of Buddhism
                > >> > And online, the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism, limited to Buddhism,
                > out
                > >> of all of Indian religions/philosophies: Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and
                > >> many more, so on.
                > >> > Buddhism, which is the most relevant Indian–origin–philosophy which
                > late
                > >> master Fukuoka, Masanobu writes building upon, amongst his writings
                > >> building on Taoism, Christianity and many critiques of many western
                > >> philosophers. Building on; People say late master Fukuoka, Masanobu's
                > >> philosophy, is humbly–so, modestly–so, kind–of beyond Buddhism, using
                > this
                > >> philosophy for writing of nature/spontaneous/natural farming. He has
                > >> formally published critique(s) of Japanese Zen Buddhism in the Japanese
                > >> journal "Quarterly Buddism".
                > >> > So see the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism entry:
                > >> >
                > >> > –> http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?q=%e6%b3%95
                > >> > Login, to this buddhism-dict website, as: guest (username): [without
                > any
                > >> password].
                > >> >
                > >> > Quotation:
                > >> > "
                > >> > 法
                > >> >
                > >> > Pronunciations
                > >> > [py] fǎ
                > >> > [wg] fa
                > >> > [hg] 법
                > >> > [mc] beop
                > >> > [mr] pŏp
                > >> > [kk] ホウ
                > >> > [hb] hō
                > >> > [qn] pháp
                > >> >
                > >> > Basic Meaning: dharma
                > >> > Senses:
                > >> >
                > >> > Rendered into English variously according to the context as: truth,
                > >> reality; phenomenon, element, constituent, (mental) factor; things,
                > quality
                > >> (Tib. chos; Pāli dhamma). The word dharma is originally derived from the
                > >> Indic root dhr, with the meaning of 'that which preserves or maintains,'
                > >> especially that which preserves or maintains human activity. The term
                > has a
                > >> wide range of meanings in Buddhism, but the foremost meaning is that of
                > the
                > >> teaching delivered by the Buddha, which is fully aligned with the
                > >> reality-principle. Thus, truth, reality, true principle, law, (Skt.
                > satya;
                > >> Tib. chos). It connotes Buddhism as the perfect religion. Dharma is also
                > >> the second component among the Three Treasures (triratna) 佛法僧, and in
                > the
                > >> sense of dharmakāya 法身 it approaches the Western idea of 'spiritual.'
                > >> [cmuller; source(s): Soothill, Hirakawa, YBh-Ind, M-W, JEBD, Yokoi]
                > >> >
                > >> > It is used in the sense of 一切 all things, or anything small or great,
                > >> visible or invisible, real or unreal, affairs, truth, principle, method,
                > >> concrete things, abstract ideas, etc. Dharma is described as that which
                > has
                > >> entity and bears its own attributes. It is in the sense of attribute,
                > >> quality, characteristic quality, factor, etc. that this term is commonly
                > >> used in Indian scholastic works to fully detail the gamut of possible
                > >> cognitive experiences. Abhidharma schools such as Sarvâstivāda
                > enumerated
                > >> seventy-five dharmas 七十五法, which the Yogâcāra school categorized the
                > events
                > >> of the experiential world into one hundred types of phenomena 百法.
                > Yogâcāras
                > >> argued that the lack of inherent identity in these dharmas is not duly
                > >> recognized by the practitioners of the two vehicles 二乘, and that this
                > level
                > >> of awareness is a distinctive characteristic of the contemplations of
                > the
                > >> bodhisattvas 菩薩. The lack of perception of the emptiness of dharmas 法無我
                > is
                > >> the key to the formation of the cognitive hindrances 所知障. [cmuller;
                > >> source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
                > >> >
                > >> > Among the six cognitive objects 六塵, dharmas are equivalent to
                > >> 'concepts,' being the objects of the thinking consciousness 意識.
                > [cmuller;
                > >> source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
                > >> >
                > >> > In Buddhist logic 因明, the dharmin is the property that one is trying
                > to
                > >> prove concerning the thesis 宗 (pakṣa) — usually found in the phrase as a
                > >> predicate or verb object (後陳、後說, etc.). For a systematic overview
                > including
                > >> this term, see 能立. [cmuller; source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
                > >> >
                > >> > Other meanings include:
                > >> > custom, habit, standard of behavior; social order, social pattern;
                > >> > that which should be done; occupation, duty, obligation;
                > >> > goodness, good action, virtue; religious duty;
                > >> > original essence, original nature.
                > >> > [cmuller; source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
                > >> >
                > >> > Dharma is transliterated as 達磨; 曇無, 曇摩; 達摩, 達謨. (Skt. śasana; vidhi;
                > >> bhāva; *aṅga, artha, ākāra, āgama, ālambana, kāraṇa, krama, guṇa,
                > dravya,
                > >> dharama, dharma-jñāna,dharmatā, dharmatva, dharma-deśanā, dharman,
                > >> dharma-naya, dharma-paryāya, dharma-prakṛti, dharmamaya, dharma-śabda,
                > >> dharma-śasana, dharma-saṃjñaka, dharma-stha,dharma-svabhāva, dharmâkhya
                > >> dharmaiśvarya, dharmôpavicāra, dharmya, dhārma, dhārmika, dhārmya, naya,
                > >> naya-dharma, pakṣa, pariṣkāra, prakāra, prakṛti, pratipad,pratisaṃyukta,
                > >> prayoga, pravacana, prasaṅgatva, buddha-dharma, bhava, bhāvin, yukti,
                > >> vastu, vidhāna, śabda, śikṣā, saṃgati, sat, sad-dharma, sthāna)
                > [cmuller;
                > >> source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
                > >> >
                > >> > Also in: CJKV-E
                > >> > "
                > >> >
                > >> > Dharma is a Dharma!
                > >> > An overwhelmingly rich idiom (kind of word).
                > >> > It can't be translated; Not in any sense fully or essentially or in
                > any
                > >> way do it justice;
                > >> > Agree with you, each of us has to feel it in our own while keeping our
                > >> feet in the earth—at the same time.
                > >> > Not describe it, not abstract it, in descriptions of it from outside
                > of
                > >> feeling it. Describing it, abstracting it, is even less, less
                > meaningful,
                > >> than translating it into words with insider's resonating meaning in
                > another
                > >> language.
                > >> >
                > >> > And, time immemorial indeed.
                > >> > The Oxford English Dictionary, entry i previously quoted, didn't do
                > too
                > >> badly, better than most of us, but never can it be perfect, as anything
                > >> anywhere, in really translating to resonate with native English
                > speakers'
                > >> idioms, and common understanding of reality; Rather than treating it,
                > >> dharma, as some exotic, non-resonating, foreign other (meaning).
                > >> >
                > >> > Again thanks, for your effort making the interesting reply.
                > >> >
                > >> > 'biggest best true nature' to every person.
                > >> >
                > >> > Mr. Jason Stewart
                > >> >
                > >> > On 05/11/2011, at 12:12 PM, Boovarahan Srinivasan wrote:
                > >> >
                > >> > > Jason !
                > >> > >
                > >> > > This is offtopic to Nf but still intersting.
                > >> > > Dharma is a Sanskrit word and Sanskrit is a lanuage used from time
                > >> > > immemorial.
                > >> > > It is said to be the language of the Gods ( Deva Bhasha ).
                > >> > > The word Dharma has so many menaings according to the context in
                > which
                > >> it
                > >> > > is used but a broader meaning is "way of living" or " "righteous
                > way of
                > >> > > living " or "its nature" .
                > >> > > A small example:
                > >> > > A tiger chases a deer and the deer seeks asylum with a hermit.
                > >> > > Now think of what happens if the hermit stops the tiger from killing
                > >> the
                > >> > > deer .
                > >> > > One way he is saving the deer's life but at the same time he
                > >> interrupts the
                > >> > > way of the tiger in getting its food by killing the deer and make it
                > >> > > starve. If he allows the tiger to have its prey , then he gets the
                > sin
                > >> of
                > >> > > not protecting the weak .
                > >> > > Killing the deer by tiger is its dharma, but the question of saving
                > or
                > >> not
                > >> > > saving the deer is debatable to the hermit. But his dharma should
                > be to
                > >> > > protect the weak who had sought asylum and thus the sin of making
                > the
                > >> tiger
                > >> > > starve wouldn't be on him.
                > >> > >
                > >> > > You can have a broad view of the meaning od dharma in this example.
                > >> There
                > >> > > can not be a right translation of Sankrit words to English or any
                > other
                > >> > > language. One has to learn it and feel and understand the meaning .
                > >> > >
                > >> > > Boovarahan S
                > >> > > Chennai.
                > >> > > 09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)
                > >> > >
                > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >> > >
                > >> > >
                > >> >
                > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >>
                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sumant Joshi
                I think we understand each other well. ...   Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone Warm regards, Sumant Joshi Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161 ... [Non-text
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 7, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think we understand each other well.

                  :))
                   



                  Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone


                  Warm regards,

                  Sumant Joshi
                  Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161



                  >________________________________
                  >From: Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...>
                  >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  >Sent: Monday, 7 November 2011 1:37 PM
                  >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Moreover धर्म
                  >
                  >

                  >Hi dear SUmant!
                  >
                  >As I said, if a translator took the time to understand the original
                  >language he can translate everything into his native tongue.
                  >The problem is, it may take him centuries to understand what a specific
                  >meaning in the original language is. But then, are there many men who live
                  >hundreds of years? So, if a man can learn an ideawith centuries of
                  >weight in his tongue in the space of his childhood or adulthood in other
                  >words his lifetime, then a translator can try the same.
                  >It does not mean the translator will succeed, but if he had the time and
                  >if he made an effort he would.
                  >Fukuoka sensei spent decades experimenting so that we after him can
                  >immediately partake of his experience. We do not need to spend the same
                  >forty or so years that he did to use his example in our own attempts at
                  >natural farming.
                  >If you include intonation, facial expression, etc. in the story, then it is
                  >no longer translation but interpretation. Translation is written and
                  >interpretation is oral.
                  >To return to translation...if dharma were so deep a concept I doubt if a
                  >single native speaker could himself express all of its meaning in a book,
                  >in his native tongue.
                  >
                  >Have a nice day dear Sumant.
                  >RUTHIE
                  >
                  >2011/11/6 Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>
                  >
                  >> **
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Hi Ruthie,
                  >> I beg to differ, you just can not translate 'everything' from one language
                  >> into another. Many times when speaking a word or even a syllable, facial
                  >> expressions convey half or more of the meaning. It is like speaking on the
                  >> telephone and not being able to convey your meaning exactly. I think each
                  >> word in any language has a very very long cultural history of evolution and
                  >> unless you are a native speaker and have experienced the social context,
                  >> you cannot understand what I being said, much less translate it.
                  >>
                  >> Words have a soul which is timeless.
                  >>
                  >> Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
                  >>
                  >> Warm regards,
                  >>
                  >> Sumant Joshi
                  >> Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
                  >>
                  >> >________________________________
                  >> >From: Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...>
                  >> >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  >> >Sent: Sunday, 6 November 2011 5:20 AM
                  >> >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Moreover धर्म
                  >>
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >Hi Jason,
                  >> >
                  >> >Everything can be trranslated.
                  >> >Maybe not always word for word, as what most people think translating is
                  >> >about.
                  >> >In translation you do not translate words but meanings.
                  >> >One Japanese word, for example, can take 100 English words to be
                  >> >translated, but it will be translated.
                  >> >It can take a translator a loong time to grasp a given meaning, but once
                  >> he
                  >> >gets it he is capable of translating it.
                  >> >
                  >> >best regards,
                  >> >
                  >> >RUTHIE
                  >> >I hold a five-year Sorbonne University degree in technical translation.
                  >> >
                  >> >2011/11/5 Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
                  >> >
                  >> >> **
                  >>
                  >> >>
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Ooooh, whoops, that sentence came out very overstated myself in written
                  >> >> context appearance,
                  >> >> That:
                  >> >> > An activity, which i have done successfully and learning much from
                  >> many
                  >> >> mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit myself
                  >> >> to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and
                  >> this
                  >> >> group's members.
                  >> >> >
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Sorry.
                  >> >> Wording correction:
                  >> >> An activity, getting dirt on my hands (not nature farming sensu Fukuoka,
                  >> >> but rather gardening, farming, plant propagation and plant nursery
                  >> >> working), which i have done successfully and learning much from many
                  >> >> mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit myself
                  >> >> to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and
                  >> this
                  >> >> group's members.
                  >> >>
                  >> >>
                  >> >> On 06/11/2011, at 9:01 AM, Jason Stewart wrote:
                  >> >>
                  >> >> > Well,
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Boovarahan, of course, i have to be really careful with these
                  >> wordings,
                  >> >> > i have to be/become even more careful, so a minor rephrasing of my
                  >> >> explanation will help you i feel:
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > 法 (hō), literally the Japanese word long ago chosen to mean Indian
                  >> धर्म
                  >> >> dhárma (an absolutely central idiom to India)
                  >> >> > my reference documents inform me further tonight that, correcting
                  >> >> earlier use of the word translate, they didn't *translate* Indian धर्म
                  >> >> dhárma, that they chose a Japanese word to mean Indian धर्म dhárma, to
                  >> >> present Indian धर्म dhárma in a Japanese word.
                  >> >> > Dharma is nowadays recognised as a word in English, as per these
                  >> >> official dictionaries' including it. 90% of English is borrowed words
                  >> from
                  >> >> many languages, most of all Latin and Greek, and many many more
                  >> languages,
                  >> >> incl. Sanskrit. (Scholarly ref's provided on request)—Now this is
                  >> getting
                  >> >> off–topic.
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Back to on–topic—if this doesn't interest any one of you of the
                  >> readers,
                  >> >> then please don't read it further. Obviously you don't have to. It is
                  >> long,
                  >> >> detailed, very specific late master Fukuoka, Masanobu language
                  >> information;
                  >> >> And, not at all directly practical nature farming with dirt on ones
                  >> hands.
                  >> >> An activity, which i have done successfully and learning much from many
                  >> >> mistakes, for the last nearly–30 years and so don't need to limit myself
                  >> >> to, can advance beyond, and can humbly take for granted in myself and
                  >> this
                  >> >> group's members. If surprisingly any of you don't do that at all yet,
                  >> then
                  >> >> please, o please, get outdoors away from this small screen and please
                  >> >> start. You won't feel what i'm writing about or get any value from it if
                  >> >> you haven't yet achieved really getting your hands very dirty in our
                  >> earth,
                  >> >> really getting down and dirty as a fully human participant member of
                  >> nature.
                  >> >> > Remembering, i'm discussing Nature/Spontaneous/Natural Farming 自然農法
                  >> >> (shizen nōhō),
                  >> >> > in particular the 法 (hō) word of that.
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > From one of my dictionaries, the Japanese–English/English–Japanese, a
                  >> >> direct copy:
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > "
                  >> >> > dharma/dάːrmə/
                  >>
                  >> >> > 名 詞•U〘ヒンズー教仏教〙
                  >> >> > 1 法, (宇宙人間などの)本体, 本性.
                  >> >> > 2 教法[戒律](に従うこと).
                  >> >> > 3 正しい行い;徳.
                  >> >> > 4 仏教;仏陀(ぶっだ)の教え.
                  >> >> > "
                  >> >> > Japanese–English/English–Japanese from dictionary: プログレッシブ英和中辞典/和英中辞典
                  >> >> Copyright 2010 Shogakukan Inc.
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Digital Dictionary of Buddhism
                  >> >> > And online, the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism, limited to Buddhism,
                  >> out
                  >> >> of all of Indian religions/philosophies: Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and
                  >> >> many more, so on.
                  >> >> > Buddhism, which is the most relevant Indian–origin–philosophy which
                  >> late
                  >> >> master Fukuoka, Masanobu writes building upon, amongst his writings
                  >> >> building on Taoism, Christianity and many critiques of many western
                  >> >> philosophers. Building on; People say late master Fukuoka, Masanobu's
                  >> >> philosophy, is humbly–so, modestly–so, kind–of beyond Buddhism, using
                  >> this
                  >> >> philosophy for writing of nature/spontaneous/natural farming. He has
                  >> >> formally published critique(s) of Japanese Zen Buddhism in the Japanese
                  >> >> journal "Quarterly Buddism".
                  >> >> > So see the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism entry:
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > –> http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?q=%e6%b3%95
                  >> >> > Login, to this buddhism-dict website, as: guest (username): [without
                  >> any
                  >> >> password].
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Quotation:
                  >> >> > "
                  >> >> > 法
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Pronunciations
                  >> >> > [py] fǎ
                  >> >> > [wg] fa
                  >> >> > [hg] 법
                  >> >> > [mc] beop
                  >> >> > [mr] pŏp
                  >> >> > [kk] ホウ
                  >> >> > [hb] hō
                  >> >> > [qn] pháp
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Basic Meaning: dharma
                  >> >> > Senses:
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Rendered into English variously according to the context as: truth,
                  >> >> reality; phenomenon, element, constituent, (mental) factor; things,
                  >> quality
                  >> >> (Tib. chos; Pāli dhamma). The word dharma is originally derived from the
                  >> >> Indic root dhr, with the meaning of 'that which preserves or maintains,'
                  >> >> especially that which preserves or maintains human activity. The term
                  >> has a
                  >> >> wide range of meanings in Buddhism, but the foremost meaning is that of
                  >> the
                  >> >> teaching delivered by the Buddha, which is fully aligned with the
                  >> >> reality-principle. Thus, truth, reality, true principle, law, (Skt.
                  >> satya;
                  >> >> Tib. chos). It connotes Buddhism as the perfect religion. Dharma is also
                  >> >> the second component among the Three Treasures (triratna) 佛法僧, and in
                  >> the
                  >> >> sense of dharmakāya 法身 it approaches the Western idea of 'spiritual.'
                  >> >> [cmuller; source(s): Soothill, Hirakawa, YBh-Ind, M-W, JEBD, Yokoi]
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > It is used in the sense of 一切 all things, or anything small or great,
                  >> >> visible or invisible, real or unreal, affairs, truth, principle, method,
                  >> >> concrete things, abstract ideas, etc. Dharma is described as that which
                  >> has
                  >> >> entity and bears its own attributes. It is in the sense of attribute,
                  >> >> quality, characteristic quality, factor, etc. that this term is commonly
                  >> >> used in Indian scholastic works to fully detail the gamut of possible
                  >> >> cognitive experiences. Abhidharma schools such as Sarvâstivāda
                  >> enumerated
                  >> >> seventy-five dharmas 七十五法, which the Yogâcāra school categorized the
                  >> events
                  >> >> of the experiential world into one hundred types of phenomena 百法.
                  >> Yogâcāras
                  >> >> argued that the lack of inherent identity in these dharmas is not duly
                  >> >> recognized by the practitioners of the two vehicles 二乘, and that this
                  >> level
                  >> >> of awareness is a distinctive characteristic of the contemplations of
                  >> the
                  >> >> bodhisattvas 菩薩. The lack of perception of the emptiness of dharmas 法無我
                  >> is
                  >> >> the key to the formation of the cognitive hindrances 所知障. [cmuller;
                  >> >> source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Among the six cognitive objects 六塵, dharmas are equivalent to
                  >> >> 'concepts,' being the objects of the thinking consciousness 意識.
                  >> [cmuller;
                  >> >> source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > In Buddhist logic 因明, the dharmin is the property that one is trying
                  >> to
                  >> >> prove concerning the thesis 宗 (pakṣa) — usually found in the phrase as a
                  >> >> predicate or verb object (後陳、後說, etc.). For a systematic overview
                  >> including
                  >> >> this term, see 能立. [cmuller; source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Other meanings include:
                  >> >> > custom, habit, standard of behavior; social order, social pattern;
                  >> >> > that which should be done; occupation, duty, obligation;
                  >> >> > goodness, good action, virtue; religious duty;
                  >> >> > original essence, original nature.
                  >> >> > [cmuller; source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Dharma is transliterated as 達磨; 曇無, 曇摩; 達摩, 達謨. (Skt. śasana; vidhi;
                  >> >> bhāva; *aṅga, artha, ākāra, āgama, ālambana, kāraṇa, krama, guṇa,
                  >> dravya,
                  >> >> dharama, dharma-jñāna,dharmatā, dharmatva, dharma-deśanā, dharman,
                  >> >> dharma-naya, dharma-paryāya, dharma-prakṛti, dharmamaya, dharma-śabda,
                  >> >> dharma-śasana, dharma-saṃjñaka, dharma-stha,dharma-svabhāva, dharmâkhya
                  >> >> dharmaiśvarya, dharmôpavicāra, dharmya, dhārma, dhārmika, dhārmya, naya,
                  >> >> naya-dharma, pakṣa, pariṣkāra, prakāra, prakṛti, pratipad,pratisaṃyukta,
                  >> >> prayoga, pravacana, prasaṅgatva, buddha-dharma, bhava, bhāvin, yukti,
                  >> >> vastu, vidhāna, śabda, śikṣā, saṃgati, sat, sad-dharma, sthāna)
                  >> [cmuller;
                  >> >> source(s): Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD]
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Also in: CJKV-E
                  >> >> > "
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Dharma is a Dharma!
                  >> >> > An overwhelmingly rich idiom (kind of word).
                  >> >> > It can't be translated; Not in any sense fully or essentially or in
                  >> any
                  >> >> way do it justice;
                  >> >> > Agree with you, each of us has to feel it in our own while keeping our
                  >> >> feet in the earth—at the same time.
                  >> >> > Not describe it, not abstract it, in descriptions of it from outside
                  >> of
                  >> >> feeling it. Describing it, abstracting it, is even less, less
                  >> meaningful,
                  >> >> than translating it into words with insider's resonating meaning in
                  >> another
                  >> >> language.
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > And, time immemorial indeed.
                  >> >> > The Oxford English Dictionary, entry i previously quoted, didn't do
                  >> too
                  >> >> badly, better than most of us, but never can it be perfect, as anything
                  >> >> anywhere, in really translating to resonate with native English
                  >> speakers'
                  >> >> idioms, and common understanding of reality; Rather than treating it,
                  >> >> dharma, as some exotic, non-resonating, foreign other (meaning).
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Again thanks, for your effort making the interesting reply.
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > 'biggest best true nature' to every person.
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Mr. Jason Stewart
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > On 05/11/2011, at 12:12 PM, Boovarahan Srinivasan wrote:
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > > Jason !
                  >> >> > >
                  >> >> > > This is offtopic to Nf but still intersting.
                  >> >> > > Dharma is a Sanskrit word and Sanskrit is a lanuage used from time
                  >> >> > > immemorial.
                  >> >> > > It is said to be the language of the Gods ( Deva Bhasha ).
                  >> >> > > The word Dharma has so many menaings according to the context in
                  >> which
                  >> >> it
                  >> >> > > is used but a broader meaning is "way of living" or " "righteous
                  >> way of
                  >> >> > > living " or "its nature" .
                  >> >> > > A small example:
                  >> >> > > A tiger chases a deer and the deer seeks asylum with a hermit.
                  >> >> > > Now think of what happens if the hermit stops the tiger from killing
                  >> >> the
                  >> >> > > deer .
                  >> >> > > One way he is saving the deer's life but at the same time he
                  >> >> interrupts the
                  >> >> > > way of the tiger in getting its food by killing the deer and make it
                  >> >> > > starve. If he allows the tiger to have its prey , then he gets the
                  >> sin
                  >> >> of
                  >> >> > > not protecting the weak .
                  >> >> > > Killing the deer by tiger is its dharma, but the question of saving
                  >> or
                  >> >> not
                  >> >> > > saving the deer is debatable to the hermit. But his dharma should
                  >> be to
                  >> >> > > protect the weak who had sought asylum and thus the sin of making
                  >> the
                  >> >> tiger
                  >> >> > > starve wouldn't be on him.
                  >> >> > >
                  >> >> > > You can have a broad view of the meaning od dharma in this example.
                  >> >> There
                  >> >> > > can not be a right translation of Sankrit words to English or any
                  >> other
                  >> >> > > language. One has to learn it and feel and understand the meaning .
                  >> >> > >
                  >> >> > > Boovarahan S
                  >> >> > > Chennai.
                  >> >> > > 09962662717 (Vodafone) , 08825889492 (Videocon)
                  >> >> > >
                  >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >> >> > >
                  >> >> > >
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >
                  >> >>
                  >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >> >>
                  >> >>
                  >> >>
                  >> >
                  >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jason Stewart
                  Everyone, Aware about?: 福岡 (Fukuoka), 正信 (Masanobu); Korn, Larry (2012 May). Sowing Seeds in the Desert: Natural Farming, Global Restoration, and
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 9, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Everyone,

                    Aware about?:

                    福岡 (Fukuoka), 正信 (Masanobu); Korn, Larry (2012 May). Sowing Seeds in the Desert: Natural Farming, Global Restoration, and Ultimate Food Security.
                    Vermont, USA: Chelsea Green Publishing. ISBN 9781603584180.
                    English
                    272p 12.5cm x 20cm (5 x 8 in.)

                    Publishers web media page:
                    -> http://media.chelseagreen.com/sowing-seeds-in-the-desert/
                    Publishers web page blurb:
                    The earth is in great peril, due to the corporatization of agriculture, the rising climate crisis, and the ever-increasing levels of global poverty, starvation, and desertification on a massive scale. This present condition of global trauma is not “natural,” however, but a result of humanity’s destructive actions. And, according to Masanobu Fukuoka, it is reversible. We need to change not only our methods of earth stewardship, but also the very way we think about the relationship between human beings and nature."


                    I've made and had brief contact with Larry Korn about it in the last few of days, since the published added more info about it to their web page (BTW some lesser info has on been there for several months).

                    With Larry Korn i said he should be second author, not merely editor, and he wrote in reply he has added much his his own material to the book, to, in my words, make the late master Fukuoka, Masanobu's oriental natural philosophy as well understood as possible to the 'western' English-language readers (intended audience). Larry Korn wrote that the book is from a book (?) late master Fukuoka, Masanobu wrote in the mid 1990s but did not get published in English. Which mid 1990s book which late master Fukuoka, Masanobu wrote i don't know which one is the name of it, but i asked Larry Korn to tell me the Japanese original book's title. The family asked Larry Korn a year ago to find an English publisher for it, which is what Chelsea Green Publishing is—Larry said they are a perfect fit. And, so on more discussed by him & i in brief email.

                    The more full list of book publishing links:
                    -> http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/sowing_seeds_in_the_desert
                    -> http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/sowing_seeds_in_the_desert:paperback/connect_with_the_author
                    -> http://media.chelseagreen.com/sowing-seeds-in-the-desert/
                    -> http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/sowing_seeds_in_the_desert:paperback/reviews_interviews_articles
                    -> http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/sowing_seeds_in_the_desert:paperback/videos
                    -> http://www.chelseagreen.com/authors/masanobu_fukuoka/

                    -> http://www.google.com.au/search?q=9781603584180
                    -> http://www.amazon.com/Sowing-Seeds-Desert-Security-international/dp/1603584188



                    Wishing all the biggest best true nature! (my deliberately creative use of words),

                    Sincerely,

                    Jason Stewart
                    south–eastern Australia



                    On 08/11/2011, at 2:04 PM, Sumant Joshi wrote:

                    > I think we understand each other well.
                    >
                    > :))
                    >
                    >
                    > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
                    >
                    > Warm regards,
                    >
                    > Sumant Joshi



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jason Stewart
                    Exactly! (my small modifications (slightly creatively quoting, and yes transparently so) to Ruthie s quoted sentence below, translating it from 1st person,
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 21, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Exactly!

                      (my small modifications (slightly creatively quoting, and yes transparently so) to Ruthie's quoted sentence below,
                      'translating' it from 1st person, Ruthie's, English, to third person�everyone�English, and to clearly present tense.)

                      On 07/11/2011, at 7:07 PM, Ruthie Aquino wrote:

                      > ...

                      > Dharma: ... so deep [, so broad, so big, so superordinate, ...] a concept;

                      > [one] ...doubt[s] if a
                      > single native speaker could himself express all of its meaning in a book,
                      > in his native tongue.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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