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Re: [fukuoka_farming] High density tree planting

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  • Larry Haftl
    ... a bunch deleted for brevity... ... let me ... If I get a chance I ll pay him a visit in the next week or two to pick his brain, but in all honesty I really
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 3, 2002
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      At Thursday, 3 October 2002, jamie wrote:

      >Hello Larry, I've nothing to add to your fine Fukuoka Introduction, but
      >would like to comment on these high density orchards.

      a bunch deleted for brevity...

      >Larry, if you get any more details of your local orchardists work,
      let me
      >know: I'm willing to be persuaded.

      If I get a chance I'll pay him a visit in the next week or two to
      pick his brain, but in all honesty I really don't want to "persuade"
      you or anyone to use this method. I don't mind giving you the information,
      but like you I have a hard time reconciling it with what Fukuoka
      is saying. I live in a "quick return" culture that more and more
      jars at my sensibilities. For someone who wants to harvest a bunch
      of fruit from a small space starting in six to eight years (an eternity
      to most Americans I think) this technique would probably work.

      Personally I would rather be like the old Afghan who had just planted
      a young sapling next to a bench in an otherwise barren and desolate
      landscape. This was shortly after the US invaded Afghanistan and
      one of our soldiers asked the old man why he had planted the tree.
      "Surely you'll be dead before that tree gives any shade," said the
      soldier. "Yes," said the old man, "but this tree is not for me, it's
      for my children."


      Larry Haftl
      larry@...
      http://larryhaftl.com/fukuoka
      http://FukuokaNaturalFarming.org
    • Robin, Maya, or Napi
      Thank you, Larry, That beautiful story will be told today, in a presentation that means much to us here. The governor s appointed Falls of the James Scenic
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 3, 2002
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        Thank you, Larry,
        That beautiful story will be told today, in a presentation that
        means much to us here. The governor's appointed Falls of the James
        Scenic River Commission will hear our appeal from noon to 2:00. We
        ask that they recommend to City Council that the city acquire the last
        105' by 110' parcel of the greenway between the university, our river
        bluff neighborhood, & the James River. The parcel, fondly called the
        "missing link", is at the intersection of a T shape park system, with
        the top of the T running along the river & including our neighborhood
        symbol, a hundred year old gazebo. The greenway stem of the T
        includes the park that I correspond with this group about, & some
        hundred+ year old trees that we are trying to save from a developer
        who has proposed-is this classic-a parking lot on the land for a
        proposed apartment complex. That the park has been truncated, & by
        one of the world's nastiest polluters at that, has meant that we
        clamber up & down a steep & rough rocky bank, while just across the
        river, the wealthy neighborhood has two bridge/ramp/stair entrances to
        the James River Park system, one of the finest urban river rapids in
        the U.S. If our community's park committee, represented today at the
        Commission by our small school, gains the vote of this prestigious
        body, then it will go a long way toward the city Department of Parks &
        Recreation's acceptance, if not respect, for our natural farming of
        the alley boundary, which has been called "an eyesore" by Department
        staff, who like their flowers to stand like soldiers, evenly spaced.
        While I credit this group for the on-going encouragement of our
        Fukuoka inspired project, I may just tell your story as having come
        from a wise man in the group, unless you can use some quote points in
        Richmond, Virginia. The greenway is for generations of our children.

        Larry Haftl wrote:

        > At Thursday, 3 October 2002, jamie wrote:
        >
        > >Hello Larry, I've nothing to add to your fine Fukuoka Introduction,
        > but
        > >would like to comment on these high density orchards.
        >
        > a bunch deleted for brevity...
        >
        > >Larry, if you get any more details of your local orchardists work,
        > let me
        > >know: I'm willing to be persuaded.
        >
        > If I get a chance I'll pay him a visit in the next week or two to
        > pick his brain, but in all honesty I really don't want to "persuade"
        >
        > you or anyone to use this method. I don't mind giving you the
        > information,
        > but like you I have a hard time reconciling it with what Fukuoka
        > is saying. I live in a "quick return" culture that more and more
        > jars at my sensibilities. For someone who wants to harvest a bunch
        > of fruit from a small space starting in six to eight years (an
        > eternity
        > to most Americans I think) this technique would probably work.
        >
        > Personally I would rather be like the old Afghan who had just
        > planted
        > a young sapling next to a bench in an otherwise barren and desolate
        > landscape. This was shortly after the US invaded Afghanistan and
        > one of our soldiers asked the old man why he had planted the tree.
        > "Surely you'll be dead before that tree gives any shade," said the
        > soldier. "Yes," said the old man, "but this tree is not for me, it's
        >
        > for my children."
        >
        >
        > Larry Haftl
        > larry@...
        > http://larryhaftl.com/fukuoka
        > http://FukuokaNaturalFarming.org
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sean Phelan
        ... Larry, Although I agree that quick return and instant America are not good things, there are other pressures and reasons to hurry. 6-8 years is an
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 3, 2002
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          > I live in a "quick return" culture that more and more
          > jars at my sensibilities. For someone who wants to harvest a bunch
          > of fruit from a small space starting in six to eight years (an eternity
          > to most Americans I think) this technique would probably work.

          Larry,

          Although I agree that "quick return" and "instant America" are not good things, there are other pressures and reasons to hurry.

          6-8 years is an eternity for your own fruit, when you look at it from another perspective:
          1) We're eating fruits loaded with pesticides . 6 years is a long time to poison yourself
          -OR-
          2) We're eating organic fruits from 1000's of miles away. That's a lot of pollution and gas consumption, just to get the fruits to your fridge.

          3) Either way, we're encouraging the loss of biodiversity that inevitably comes with large-scale agriculture.

          Personally, I'd rather deal with the "unnatural" of doing some pruning, than the "even-more-unnatural" stated above.

          Where I live in Florida, organic apples come from NY(1200 miles away) and organic "anything-else" comes from California (3000 miles away)
          Even organic citrus comes from California (think about that one ... Florida imports organic oranges from California)

          I'll be happy to prune a bit to stop that, but I'd probably just snip of a little branch every few weeks, instead of some huge pruning once a year.

          You have to figure that even in Nature, a tree can lose a branch or two from an animal running through or a deer coming to browse.

          Sp

          -------------------------------------------
          Sean Phelan
          Sequoia Consulting - Internet solutions that make sense
          http://www.sqcn.com
          mailto:SPhelan@...
          http://www.TheSCIA.Org - Proud Member of the Space Coast Internet Alliance
          (321) 984-0211
        • Larry Haftl
          ... I always like to get a byline on my work. In this case wise man in the group sounds ego-inflating enough to satisfy... :) Good luck with your
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 3, 2002
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            At Thursday, 03 October 2002, you wrote:

            > While I credit this group for the on-going encouragement of our
            >Fukuoka inspired project, I may just tell your story as having come
            >from a wise man in the group, unless you can use some quote points in
            >Richmond, Virginia. The greenway is for generations of our children.

            I always like to get a byline on my work. In this case "wise man
            in the group" sounds ego-inflating enough to satisfy... :)

            Good luck with your presentation. Sounds like you have an economic
            justice issue as well as environmental one. Hope you succeed.

            BTW, I still don't know if you are Robin, Maya or Napi. Is this a
            well-kept secret, do you have a multiple personality, or do all three
            of you speak on this list with the same delightful voice?

            Larry Haftl
            larry@...
          • Larry Haftl
            ... good ... fridge. I can understand those pressures and desires. Fortunately, I am literally surrounded by organic farms and orchards that give me the time
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 3, 2002
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              At Thursday, 3 October 2002, Sean wrote:

              >Although I agree that "quick return" and "instant America" are not
              good
              >things, there are other pressures and reasons to hurry.
              >
              >6-8 years is an eternity for your own fruit, when you look at it from
              >another perspective:
              >1) We're eating fruits loaded with pesticides . 6 years is a long time
              >to poison yourself
              >-OR-
              >2) We're eating organic fruits from 1000's of miles away. That's a lot
              >of pollution and gas consumption, just to get the fruits to your
              fridge.

              I can understand those pressures and desires. Fortunately, I am literally
              surrounded by organic farms and orchards that give me the time to
              think about what I'm doing rather than act from desparation.

              >Where I live in Florida, organic apples come from NY(1200 miles away)
              >and organic "anything-else" comes from California (3000 miles away)
              >Even organic citrus comes from California (think about that one
              .. Florida
              >imports organic oranges from California)

              Having spent some time in both Florida and California it doesn't
              surprise me. What I have trouble with is living in a major grape-
              growing region and eating grapes that come from Chile. BTW, I'm planting
              some grape vines in spring...

              >I'll be happy to prune a bit to stop that, but I'd probably just snip
              >of a little branch every few weeks, instead of some huge pruning once
              >a year.

              Actually, if you go this route you do a major pruning once in summer
              and then some touchups in fall and late winter. It's not the kind
              of thing that makes sense doing a nibble at a time.

              >You have to figure that even in Nature, a tree can lose a branch
              or two
              >from an animal running through or a deer coming to browse.

              I have deer come and share our apples on a regular basis. Never broke
              a branch. They are surprisingly delicate eaters. The upside of having
              deer browse on your garden or orchard is that it gives a sense of
              sharing with nature that is unique. The downside is that you can't
              shoot them when deer season opens because they've become "pets".

              I understand what you are saying about branches being broken by natural
              forces, but pruning is only part of the problem. Transplanting saplings
              is a bigger one. Fukuoka promotes growing trees from seeds. Something
              almost nobody seems willing or able to do. But it is the only way
              to get a truly native/natural tree. If you have the patience to plant
              seeds and wait for the orchard to grow then you have patience to
              never prune them. If you are going to transplant a tree then what
              does it matter if you prune it?

              Larry Haftl
              larry@...
              http://larryhaftl.com/fukuoka
              http://FukuokaNaturalFarming.org
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