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Re:Waterless Gardening and other ideas

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  • Larry Haftl
    ... (like tomato/cucumber/melon, etc..)? If you didn t harvest these fruits, but rather timed their drop, you could release that water back into the soil
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 30, 2002
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      Sean Phelan wrote:
      > ...how about the water held in fruit crops, especially annuals
      (like tomato/cucumber/melon, etc..)? If you didn't harvest these
      fruits, but rather timed their drop, you could release that water
      back into the soil during the dry season.

      I don't think so Sean. Better to keep the moisture in the soil under
      a thick layer of mulch than to let it evaporate as you waste perfectly
      good food.

      > ...an idea for a long-term bare lot would be:
      - Plant fruit/nut trees, from seed or young seedling.
      - Use the space in between for veggies and annual food crops (or
      even perennial, if you want)

      A few years ago I did a documentary on Japanese immigrants into the
      Hood River Valley in Oregon. That area had/has a long tradition of
      growing some of the best apples, pears and other fruit in the world.
      The Japanese planted trees like everyone else, but then they started
      to plant cash crop vegetables between the rows of trees and all of
      a sudden they are making a lot more money off their lands than the
      locals had been. Pissed the locals off a lot. Led to all sorts of
      nasty confrontations. The point is, your idea works really well.
      Been proven many times in many places. Don't know why it is not done
      a lot more often. If you are planning on planting some trees you
      might look into a relatively little used (I think) technique of planting
      several saplings in one larger hole. Talked to a nursery guy in Northern
      California about it. He has a website, but I'd have to hunt for it
      if you are interested. The theory is that a home gardener can plant
      trees closer together than the "standard" 10+ foot spacing commercial
      growers use because the home gardener doesn't have to drive a big
      tractor between the trees. Also, you can plant several varieties
      together to get a prolonged harvest period. And by using semi-dwarf
      trees you can get a lot of production in a very small space. Sort
      of the Biodynamic approach to orchards. Not very Fukuokaesque, but
      if anyone is interested in knowing more I'll hunt up the links again.
      There are several homeowners/small farmers doing this in the Northern
      California/Southern Oregon area.


      Larry Haftl
      larry@...
    • aus ma56
      yes, i m interested. mark ... concentrated nutrition,weight loss and cancer prevention www.myricebran.com
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 1, 2002
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        yes, i'm interested.
        mark


        >From: Larry Haftl <larry@...>
        >Reply-To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Waterless Gardening and other ideas
        >Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:08:34 -0700
        >
        >Sean Phelan wrote:
        > > ...how about the water held in fruit crops, especially annuals
        >(like tomato/cucumber/melon, etc..)? If you didn't harvest these
        >fruits, but rather timed their drop, you could release that water
        >back into the soil during the dry season.
        >
        >I don't think so Sean. Better to keep the moisture in the soil under
        >a thick layer of mulch than to let it evaporate as you waste perfectly
        >good food.
        >
        > > ...an idea for a long-term bare lot would be:
        >- Plant fruit/nut trees, from seed or young seedling.
        >- Use the space in between for veggies and annual food crops (or
        >even perennial, if you want)
        >
        >A few years ago I did a documentary on Japanese immigrants into the
        >Hood River Valley in Oregon. That area had/has a long tradition of
        >growing some of the best apples, pears and other fruit in the world.
        >The Japanese planted trees like everyone else, but then they started
        >to plant cash crop vegetables between the rows of trees and all of
        >a sudden they are making a lot more money off their lands than the
        >locals had been. Pissed the locals off a lot. Led to all sorts of
        >nasty confrontations. The point is, your idea works really well.
        >Been proven many times in many places. Don't know why it is not done
        >a lot more often. If you are planning on planting some trees you
        >might look into a relatively little used (I think) technique of planting
        >several saplings in one larger hole. Talked to a nursery guy in Northern
        >California about it. He has a website, but I'd have to hunt for it
        >if you are interested. The theory is that a home gardener can plant
        >trees closer together than the "standard" 10+ foot spacing commercial
        >growers use because the home gardener doesn't have to drive a big
        >tractor between the trees. Also, you can plant several varieties
        >together to get a prolonged harvest period. And by using semi-dwarf
        >trees you can get a lot of production in a very small space. Sort
        >of the Biodynamic approach to orchards. Not very Fukuokaesque, but
        >if anyone is interested in knowing more I'll hunt up the links again.
        >There are several homeowners/small farmers doing this in the Northern
        >California/Southern Oregon area.
        >
        >
        >Larry Haftl
        >larry@...
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >




        concentrated nutrition,weight loss
        and cancer prevention
        www.myricebran.com


        _________________________________________________________________
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      • Larry Haftl
        ... The best source I found for info on dense planting of fruit trees was at the Dave Wilson Nursery page http://www.davewilson.com from the homepage click
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 1, 2002
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          At Tuesday, 01 October 2002, you wrote:

          >yes, i'm interested.
          >mark

          The best source I found for info on dense planting of fruit trees
          was at the Dave Wilson Nursery page http://www.davewilson.com

          from the homepage click on "Resources for the home gardener"

          Then click on "Backyard Orchard Culture"
          that page has a bunch of info including a nice PDF format file that
          pretty much spells out the whole concept.

          Like I said, it's not very Fukuokaesque, but it seems to work.

          Larry Haftl
          larry@...
        • aus ma56
          thank you ! i dont stick to just one system. i use the best of all the systems. the better one can adapt the better the survival. ... concentrated
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 1, 2002
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            thank you !
            i dont stick to just one system. i use the best of all the systems.
            the better one can adapt the better the survival.


            >From: Larry Haftl <larry@...>
            >Reply-To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Waterless Gardening and other ideas
            >Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:45:42 -0700
            >
            >At Tuesday, 01 October 2002, you wrote:
            >
            > >yes, i'm interested.
            > >mark
            >
            >The best source I found for info on dense planting of fruit trees
            >was at the Dave Wilson Nursery page http://www.davewilson.com
            >
            >from the homepage click on "Resources for the home gardener"
            >
            >Then click on "Backyard Orchard Culture"
            >that page has a bunch of info including a nice PDF format file that
            >pretty much spells out the whole concept.
            >
            >Like I said, it's not very Fukuokaesque, but it seems to work.
            >
            >Larry Haftl
            >larry@...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >




            concentrated nutrition,weight loss
            and cancer prevention
            www.myricebran.com


            _________________________________________________________________
            Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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          • jamie
            Thanks for the link Larry. I ve a passing interest in high density planting since I noticed my sunflowers flourishing in stands of up to four. Anne had planted
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 2, 2002
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              Thanks for the link Larry. I've a passing interest in high density planting
              since I noticed my sunflowers flourishing in stands of up to four. Anne had
              planted four seeds in each hole and with good germination there were places
              with 3 and 4 sunflowers per 4 inch square, I thought of thinning them but
              being a complete and utter beginner I thought again and decided it would be
              instructive to see how they fared across the summer. Considering they got to
              2 metres and more without watering I was amazed. I started looking around
              for similar natural high density stands and found many, I especially
              remember sitting on the banks of the Aude river and seeing clumps of trees
              in clumps of 5 or 6. Not saplings but large, mature trees. Obviously they
              had all the water they wanted there, but it helped liberate me from the idea
              of regular equalised plantings - or at least for certain plants. Does anyone
              have more information on this high density companionality (is this a word?)
              and species that favour such planting.

              My only concern about planting fruit trees in such high densities is that
              each tree will not be able to achieve full canopy development and thus
              fruit quality. For the sunflowers such concerns weren't apparent as their
              leafing is tight to their stems and as they grew they naturally fell away
              from one another, minimising shade. But it can only be healthy to question
              the accepted wisdom of conventional agriculture, an agriculture that has had
              several millennia in which to evolve away from nature with ever greater
              intervention and additions from humankind. There's just so much more for us
              to discover, that's been forgotten or was perhaps never perceived in the
              first place. If we accept Fukuoka's concerns about scientific agriculture
              then it might be that instead of several thousand years of progress, these
              years have been regressive. It is in light of this possibility that the work
              we are each developing has its intrinsic worth.

              Jamie
              Souscayrous


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Larry Haftl <larry@...>
              To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:45 AM
              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Waterless Gardening and other ideas


              > At Tuesday, 01 October 2002, you wrote:
              >
              > >yes, i'm interested.
              > >mark
              >
              > The best source I found for info on dense planting of fruit trees
              > was at the Dave Wilson Nursery page http://www.davewilson.com
              >
              > from the homepage click on "Resources for the home gardener"
              >
              > Then click on "Backyard Orchard Culture"
              > that page has a bunch of info including a nice PDF format file that
              > pretty much spells out the whole concept.
              >
              > Like I said, it's not very Fukuokaesque, but it seems to work.
              >
              > Larry Haftl
              > larry@...
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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