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Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans

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  • Ruthie Aquino
    Jason, guys, Can we leave out religion for a while? There are many religious people here. Even someone who claims some form of pseudo-atheism has a god :
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 11, 2011
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      Jason, guys,
      Can we leave out religion for a while?
      There are many religious people here.
      Even someone who claims some form of pseudo-atheism has a god : himself. He
      considers others to be misled souls and himself to be an enlightened one.
      Now if someone considers science as his god or guide...ahem...what's he
      doing in fukuoka farming?
      God bless
      RUTHIE

      2011/3/11 Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>

      >
      >
      > Dear Jason,:))
      > Thats all right, objection noted and I object to your using words like
      > "totally wrong" when using it for anyone. What it implies is that Dawkins
      > lived a wasted life and was better off not having existed which isn't quite
      > right.I am sure the audience on this forum here are educated enough to form
      > their own opinions after they have read what needs to be read. No one is
      > ever dead right or dead wrong including me or you.
      >
      > btw I recommend a book for everyone called 'leadership and self deception'
      > by the Arbinger Institute.
      >
      >
      > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
      >
      > Warm regards,
      >
      > Sumant Joshi
      > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
      >
      > --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
      > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 9:57 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ...Dawkins got it totally wrong...
      >
      > in his supposed selfish gene polemic-thesis...
      >
      > As per no basis for it at the start, now, nor any gene evidence.
      >
      > Plentiful evidence continues to mount up that humans have nature of
      >
      > mutualism/alturism (goodness and symbiosis), always of course with
      > potential for
      >
      > conditioned, received�learned badness.
      >
      > To the extent that some blockbuster feature fiction movies in the cinemas
      > over
      >
      > the last few years have based some of their plots on this non-fiction
      > mounting
      >
      > science.
      >
      > Sumant, I object to you using my words to "agree completely" with and
      >
      > associating such with Dawkins dog�eat�dog personal world view. Dog�eat�dog
      >
      > personal world view dressed up using his towering Darwinist academic
      > standing as
      >
      > if it were science. When it fact so called selfish genes was never science,
      > just
      >
      > his personal pseudo-science mildly and
      > superficially�scientific�style�of�wording
      >
      > rant at his fundamentalist pseudo-Christian family background, involving
      >
      > dogmatically battering him as a boy, that humans have to behave, be good
      > like
      >
      > Jesus, etc. Dawkins personal life was one of being brought up beaten-down
      > by
      >
      > dogmatic fundamentalist pseudo�Christian family�parents, really battered,
      >
      > brainwashed and suppressed; I used concise words there to recount it, what
      > he
      >
      > said himself; I've heard him speaking himself about his treatment and
      > upbringing
      >
      > by his family in his own speeches about all that related area.
      >
      > ... And now in the last 30 years or so Dawkins has been reacting against
      > that to
      >
      > another polemic extreme, of obvious unresolved personal issues.
      >
      > A reminder of philosophy basics: just because one idea has been disproved,
      >
      > doesn't make all competing ideas proved (right). Philosophically,
      > hypothetically
      >
      > on a given subject all human ideas can come from complete ignorance
      > �stabbing in
      >
      > the dark or in confusion� and therefore all ideas be wrong, irrespective of
      > if
      >
      > one of them was disproved, as wrong. Science having disproved that
      > individual
      >
      > people's notions of God as a projection of their ego-illusion(s) into the
      > comsos
      >
      > and labelled as God, has not proved anything. god has not been disproved,
      > just
      >
      > the notions of god which were based on wrong ideas in the first place.
      >
      > Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu said words like, paraphrasing, God watches or
      > doesn't
      >
      > watch and stays silent.
      >
      > The point that we are still ruled by the inescapable combination of the
      >
      > interaction of our genes with our habitat and society ('environment'),
      > carries
      >
      > and is sustained by plentiful evidence, as you were saying.
      >
      > ...I'm busy, sorry. There are masses of references for all this, from
      > Dawkins
      >
      > personal life history told in his own words, to evidence of at once all of
      >
      > altruism, mutualism. Try Natalie Angier on altrusim, excellent concise,
      > plain
      >
      > and simple English writing straight to the point with evidence she cites
      > ...
      >
      > ________________________________
      >
      > From: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>
      >
      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 13:17:20
      >
      > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
      >
      > Agree completely. :)) Suraj, there are monkeys in Japan who have learnt to
      > wash
      >
      > their food before eating it.
      >
      > The idea is not to demean humans but to say that they are as intelligent or
      > as
      >
      > dumb as most life forms on Earth. Once we understand that, we can take
      > steps to
      >
      > do something about the mess we are in. Yes, they can adapt quickly but so
      > can
      >
      > ants and monkeys and what not. Don't be fooled by spaceships and
      >
      > other gadgets humans have invented. The farming techniques developed by
      > ants are
      >
      > extremely sophisticated and monkeys too have a very complex social
      > organization.
      >
      > We are still ruled by nature's laws. read 'the selfish gene' by Richard
      > Dawkins.
      >
      > like I said earlier, humans may 'know' their environment is in danger, but
      > they
      >
      > are too slow in reacting and changing.
      >
      > And you aren't in a minority when you say "One ant cannot possibly see that
      > it
      >
      > is running out of its resource base. Whereas, we humans can". 99% of people
      > on
      >
      > Earth do not (want to) see that our resources are running out despite
      >
      > irrefutable evidence. How dumb can one get!!
      >
      > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
      >
      > Warm regards,
      >
      > Sumant Joshi
      >
      > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
      >
      > --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
      >
      > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
      >
      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 7:05 AM
      >
      > What did humans really truly invent for the first time anywhere that we
      > know of
      >
      > in the universe,
      >
      > the vain (ego) pride that human agriculture is superior to nature farming,
      > to so
      >
      > called by agriculturalists hunter-gatherers, etc.
      >
      > The ego is the real invention since at least 'Western' agriculture, and it
      >
      > doesn't exist in reality only false in illusion and delusion and in
      > needless
      >
      > competition and in... . As you know.
      >
      > Where did this real invention come from? Well one line of evidence amongst
      >
      > others is :
      >
      > (See link within this link here and read widely around this scholarly
      > evidence
      >
      > please, i have much more links and documents if you request. See also the
      > files
      >
      > section here in this group for more on this.)
      >
      > -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/messages/3081
      >
      > Amongst others, like Sigmund Freud inventing the literal so called "ego"
      > and so
      >
      > called "super-ego"
      >
      > ... (busy at the moment, Jase).
      >
      > ________________________________
      >
      > From: Suraj <suraj@...>
      >
      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Cc: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>
      >
      > Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2011 12:44:51
      >
      > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
      >
      > On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with
      > humans
      >
      > > is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no
      >
      > > better than the common ant as far
      >
      > >
      >
      > I think you missed my point. The 'invention' of farming by ants is akin to
      >
      > the invention of flight by birds. True, they did it first and most human
      >
      > inventions are nothing new. However, all species do these through the slow
      >
      > process of evolution. One ant cannot possibly see that it is running out of
      >
      > its resource base. Whereas, we humans can. We can also adapt quickly and
      >
      > exploit (ex: for a cheetah to start hunting a new prey in a radically
      >
      > different way (ex: to swim and catch fish) because its earlier prey has
      > been
      >
      > pushed to extinction, it takes several generations. Whereas a human being
      >
      > just needs to get the idea to build a net and start fishing). This is where
      >
      > humans are fundamentally 'out of sync' with the speed of everything else...
      >
      > > as changing our behaviour is concerned. we think we are intelligent. see
      >
      > > how difficult it is to change our behaviour in light of available
      >
      > > information on climate change, perils of
      >
      > >
      >
      > True, which is what I meant by "we continue to be affected by our animal
      >
      > nature - our cognitive biases that are a result of this animal nature". But
      >
      > that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss or attempt to change. Infact, we CAN
      >
      > change if given enough thought. Afterall, who are the members of this
      > forum?
      >
      > People having understood / felt a fundamental problem are looking for ways
      >
      > to change. Isn't it? :)
      >
      > -Suraj
      >
      > --
      >
      > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
      >
      > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
      >
      > Dr. Albert Bartlett
      >
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