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Re: [fukuoka_farming] justin & jamie & about the green belt project

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  • emilia
    justin, although in permaculture no-till is recommended, it is mainly applied in the instalation of perennial plants in permanent places, but when it comes to
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 28, 2002
      although in permaculture no-till is recommended, it is mainly applied in the
      instalation of perennial plants in permanent places, but when it comes to
      the growing of annual/biennal vegetables even david holmgren (whose
      "permaculture" thesis has made his teacher bill mollison famous), uses
      biodynamics in his veggie garden...& nat.ag. is only applied by very few
      permaculure people & none for commercial vegetable production (as far as i
      i agree that organic produce should be sold at the same price or slightly
      cheaper so as to avoid the attraction of "organic" farmers that their only
      motivation is the one of making more money & have no scrupulous cheating.
      in greece perhaps organic farmers may be subventionned "for ever" but such
      is not the case in other european countries within the common market club:
      in france there is only a help given during 3 years of reconversion, which
      makes sense. & in those countries any farmer that sells its produce must buy
      the seeds... as it is illegal to grow food with "uncertified" ones: food is
      in the total control of multinationals & although for the non-commercial
      "farmers" we still have the freedom to save our seeds & exchange & etc. when
      it comes to a farmer selling its produce that is not longer possible,
      (transgressing is penalized with heavy fines)

      about the green belt project: i've contacted them more than once to have
      news on what grows from the seedballs seeding projects...so far no
      news...idem for panos, perhaps some of u will have a better chance? it is
      important to have the follow up of all those actions, what are the results?
      growing vegetables from seed balls,( besides daikon, other radishes & swiss
      chard,) doesn't seems to work...growing most vegetales without water is
      asking plants genetically programmed for good soil & water to forget their
      needs so that we grow them where we can...but not where they can. it took
      fukuoka-san years in a rainy (at the right time) place to ameliorate the
      soil so that tomatoes & other vegetables would grow naturally...nat.ag. is
      not easy on its own to apply but on top of it we are trying to practice it
      in the most difficult situations: fukuoka-san had it easier!

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "jamie" <jamie@...>
      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:12 PM
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] fukuoka farming in greece and mediterranean
      "green belt" project

      > Apologies but I don't have the time this evening to finish the waterless
      > vegetables thread, however, I would like to make some comments on Pavle's
      > excellent post.
      > Perhaps like many on this list I've heard of Panaiotis and the information
      > relating to his project at
      > It seems a project whose time has certainly come considering the fragile
      > landscapes of the Mediterranean coastal basin.
      > What particularly interests me about the posts is Pavle's insight into the
      > particulars of Panaiotis's work. If I had the nerve I would probably have
      > already have changed into capitals to emphasise this point:
      > > price slightly below the market price of the fruit - thus going
      > > against the usual logic whereby natural food costs much much more than
      > > the rest.
      > This to me is the essence of Natural farming. If you do not till the
      > if you do not use herbicides, if you do not use fertilizer, if you do not
      > prune, (if you do not water!), if you use seeds you collected from the
      > previous years plants...then how could you ever justify selling your
      > at a premium?
      > Cheap food does not come from mass production but natural production. It
      > not the economies of scale that count but the economies of nature. Organic
      > Agriculture is not the answer as long as its produce is sold as a premium.
      > Good food, healthy food, is cheap and that cheapness is achieved through
      > simplicity of its production: the right seed for the right soil, in the
      > right climate for the right market.
      > Seedballs have never been the attraction of Natural farming for me, but
      > acute reversal of market economies expressed in the simplicity of growing
      > food with nature and not against nature has. But the revolution inspired
      > such rhetoric does not stop at the economic but flows over into our
      > lives; how could it not? To grow with nature means to listen anew to
      > and not try to force or prod nature with techniques. If we harken to
      > (I know the word sounds faintly pretentious but I use it to capture the
      > passive reception needed to redefine our relationship to nature) then we
      > transform the ordering order of western technology. It is this openness to
      > the slow paths of nature that cultivates us as much as we cultivate our
      > fields. When close to the inexorable progress of nature I am left mute and
      > it is then that I become fully cognisant of the words of Fukuoka.
      > To the pragmatists on this list I know I have erred, but I would respond
      > that not only to err is human, but that without the reflective capacity
      > pragmatic involvement would be pure mechanism, not holism.
      > Jamie
      > Souscayrous
      > PS I'll post the final part of the waterless vegetables this weekend.
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: corfuku <ok_dooks@...>
      > To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 1:26 PM
      > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] fukuoka farming in greece and mediterranean
      > "green belt" project
      > >
      > > hi,
      > > i have no personal experience in natural farming (and not even in
      > > farming), but there's some second-hand or third-hand experience i can
      > > pass on. a friend of mine recently spoke to me about Panaiotis
      > > Manikis, a greek man and disciple of Fukuoka. he lives in the north of
      > > greece, in edessa, and has been putting into practice the teachings of
      > > Fukuoka since the early 80s.
      > > and, it seems, he has had a fair amount of success.
      > > he has managed to grow large plantations of fruit trees. i was told he
      > > actually concentrates on fruit trees because he says that vegetables
      > > need a lot of work and would not give him the opportunity to travel
      > > and teach elsewhere or help with projects in other countries. so he
      > > just has fruit trees ..... but it seems to be going well for him.
      > > while following Fukuoka's teachings he has also developed his own
      > > personal ideas (as we all should), and has adapted himself to the
      > > local circumstances - on an ethical level, but also from a purely
      > > economic point of view. for example, although his fruit is completely
      > > natural, he has refused to create a label (or trademark) and has
      > > refused to class his produce as biological/natural ..... and has also
      > > refused to sell to bigger companies which specialize in
      > > biological/natural products.
      > > instead he has chosen to sell at the local markets AND to sell at a
      > > price slightly below the market price of the fruit - thus going
      > > against the usual logic whereby natural food costs much much more than
      > > the rest.
      > > i feel that these choices are profoundly revolutionary, in the sense
      > > that they undercut the usual dynamics and market forces which are
      > > messing up the world.
      > > Panaiotis also says that he has made these choices so as to avoid
      > > falling into certain traps. one of these traps is that in the European
      > > Union there is funding available for natural and biological farms.
      > > Panaiotis, however, has never wanted to depend on anyone. he does not
      > > want a natural farm which survives only thanks to funds from the
      > > European Union. he believes that would be a no-win situation, and
      > > believes that in a few years' time (when countries from eastern europe
      > > enter the European Union) many natural/biological farms will go
      > > bankrupt because all of a sudden the funding will disappear .... money
      > > will be sent to these new members of the European Union, so as to
      > > modernize them.
      > > we shall have to wait and see, but it seems to me that he's got a
      > > point .... and anyway i respect very much his will to search for
      > > something True - a natural farm which is exactly that: a NATURAL farm,
      > > with no outside help ... just Nature doing her thing.
      > >
      > > the interesting point, however, is that Panaiotis seems to have been
      > > very successful with his fruit produce (and has slowly managed to
      > > educate local farmers) .... so much so that he is able to travel
      > > around the world and promote other Fukuoka-based projects.
      > >
      > > one of these is the Green Belt Project for southern europe. a few
      > > years ago, together with Fukuoka, Panaiotis had envisioned re-greening
      > > a vast area spreading from northern iraq in the east, to portugal in
      > > the west ..... greening the desert. the project would be a huge
      > > seedball campaign, to bring the forests back to these areas, and push
      > > back the desert which slowly advances (even though we may be convinced
      > > that italian and spanish countrysides are very natural and nice to see
      > > - as fukuoka says, they are one step away from a true desert).
      > > some work has been done in greece, with a fair amount of success i
      > > believe. other seedball scatterings have taken place in parts of
      > > portugal and italy, as far as i know. unfortunately, there are still
      > > too few people for a large campaign to take place - although in areas
      > > where there has been support, as in greece, even helicopters have been
      > > used for the scattering of seedballs.
      > > Panaiotis says that it is vital that the word about this project
      > > spreads and that institutions and governments too be involved if
      > > possible. the point is that land set aside specifically for this
      > > seedball re-greening project would greatly help. otherwise much effort
      > > is lost if (after seedballs start sprouting) sheep or cattle are
      > > allowed to graze away all those new plants.
      > > however, i believe that all seedballing will help. and, if anything,
      > > at least brings people together in a healthy way.
      > > Panaiotis' aim is to re-forest and re-green the south of europe, and
      > > then move into a counter-attack against the desert! .... chasing the
      > > desert, wherever it may be!
      > > you can find some more information on this at the site below (check
      > > out all the various pages and links):
      > >
      > > http://www.mir.org/greenbelt/english/index.htm
      > >
      > > as for the actual man, if anyone is interested to visit him or get in
      > > contact:
      > >
      > > Parados Nikomidis 7
      > > EDESSA 58200, Greece
      > >
      > > telephone: +30 (0)38127312
      > >
      > > he likes visitors, especially from june to august when there is
      > > fruit-picking to be done!
      > >
      > > well, that's my post - a bit long, but i hope people might find it
      > > interesting or useful. after all, it's some kind of success story for
      > > natural farming.
      > >
      > >
      > > bye,
      > > pavle
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > >
      > >
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