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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Most in this group the information is intuitive...we know what is right

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  • Jason Stewart
    Hi Ruthie Aquino –welcome from me!– and all, Everyone!: My internet allowance was used up just at the right time recently – A mere saying: The cosmos s
    Message 1 of 34 , Feb 25, 2011
      Hi Ruthie Aquino –welcome from me!– and all,

      Everyone!:
      My internet allowance was used up just at the right time recently – A mere
      saying: 'The cosmos's great spirit works in mysterious ways, to humans'.
      I knew this, my internet allowance would run out and i didn't feel any need
      renew it until now as I'm busy in my tens of acres with many years in my
      experience, 自然農園 (nature farm)! Main summer season here in the southern
      hemisphere of course.

      This message's text character encoding is Unicode UTF-8:.

      Everyone!:
      An absolutely wonderful, classical quotation from late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu
      sensei,
      in "The Road Back to Nature" 1987 Out of print. ISBN 978-0-87040-673-7 English
      translation by Frederich P. Metraud, Japan publications,
      of 自然に還る (shizen ni kaeru) 1984 Aug. Published by Shunjūsha (春秋社?), 362 pp. ISBN
      978-4-393-74104-7:

      "
      Natural Farming Takes Root in Italy
      -----------------------------------

      Summer Camp at Giannozzo's
      ...
      Milan Rice
      ...
      On to Austria
      ...
      Lecturing in Vienna

      Let me return a bit to my visit in Vienna, where I stayed before going on to
      Italy. A little incident occurred during a talk I gave there. The lecture had
      been hastily arranged and it was thought that only about three hundred people
      would show up. But as we were beginning, people continued to arrive and it
      became clear that not everyone would be able to get in, so the lecture was
      postponed for thirty minutes and the location moved to a larger hall. It turned
      out to be quite an emotionally charged meeting. .
      Ten to twenty minutes after I'd begun talking, one young man stood up. "I came
      here to learn about natural farm­ing," he said. "But all you're talking about is
      Western philo­sophy. I'm not here to listen to you speak of philosophy." This is
      the same kind of thing that young people tell me in Japan.
      I had started talking about philosophy because, when I arrived in Vienna and saw
      all the churches there and when I looked out at the audience and saw that they
      all had the faces of musicians, it just seemed to be a good way to start off my
      lecture. I saw almost no one in the audience who looked like a farmer; they all
      looked like townspeople to me. That's why I began by saying: "Austria is
      beautiful but a land of spuri­ous green. This is a country of cattle and grapes.
      The agri­culture here arose to produce meat and wine. This is not farming for
      the natural earth; it is an agriculture for the royalty and clergy. That is why
      the earth is poor and barren today. If agriculture takes a wrong turn, then
      culture also goes awry. This mistake began with Descartes. Such destruc­tion is
      the penalty for the crime of thinking that nature exists because man exists and
      of sacrificing nature for man."
      Then, in the middle of this, someone stands up and hands me a wallop: "I came to
      hear you talk about natural farming, not philosophy." This infuriated me, but it
      also spurred me on. I launched into a harangue.
      "You may say that but do you intend right now to practice natural farming, and
      are you able to? Speaking from thirty years of personal experience in Japan, not
      even a single farmer in my immediate neighborhood practices natural farm­ing. Do
      you know why? There's a reason for this. Even if you yourself intend to go into
      natural farming, do you think consumers in the towns and cities will buy crooked
      egg­plants and vegetables full of insects? If the people of Vienna don't
      understand, you won't be able to support yourself. One individual may think of
      practicing natural farming, but it's not something you can do right away in a
      field. In order to change the farming practices of a single farmer, the entire
      social fabric must first change. Natural farming is not simply a question of
      agriculture. It is a problem that concerns poli­tics, economics, and people's
      ways of thinking and living. It concerns everyone - consumers in the cities and
      farmers alike. That's why to reform one thing, everything has to be chang­ed.
      Did the chicken come first or the egg? Well, the key to changing everything at
      once lies in philosophy. If one thing changes, everything changes. Unless all
      things change, noth­ing changes. If the philosophy of all the people of the
      world doesn't change, if the thinking of the people of Vienna doesn't change,
      then no one will be able to practice natural farming. Unless all the problems
      are solved, not even one thing can be done. The methods described in "The
      One-Straw Revolution" can resolve all the agricultural problems, but un­less
      reforms occur in all areas - Western philosophy, thought, and religion - even so
      simple a thing as this cannot be done. No one will be able or willing to
      practice even such an easy method of farming as this."
      This received a thunderous ovation. The applause just wouldn't die down. There
      were cries of "Encore, Encore." I loosened up after that and did get around to
      speaking about natural farming, but once the lecture was over - it must have
      been ten or eleven o'clock in the evening - the audience didn't budge to go
      home. The doorkeeper at the hall tried to push everyone out, telling them, "It's
      time to close the doors. Please go on home." But people just wouldn't leave. We
      had a second meeting of sorts outside in the lobby. Then, when we finally left
      the building, everyone went over to a kind of dining hall where we held a third
      session. We went on like this until past midnight.
      "Gosh, my talk really went over well," I thought. It was a great feeling. But
      later it occurred to me that this was Vi­enna, the music capital of Europe.
      People here had the habit of encoring at concerts and recitals. It was even
      possible that all that clapping may have been done partly out of politeness.
      Still, the audience had taken to what I had said.
      The interpreting done there was very good. A Japanese interpreter from the
      embassy in Vienna came over to translate for me. I realized there, and also
      later in Salzburg and Inns­bruck as well, that a great deal depends on the
      interpreter. The interpreter at Vienna had read "The One-Straw Revolution" and,
      during the lecture, he always translated exactly what I said, even when I was
      groping for words. He refrained from inserting any of his own thoughts and did
      an excellent job of relaying my message to the audience.
      At Innsbruck, an attractive young French woman began interpreting for me, but
      she appeared to have trouble under­standing the more difficult points and was
      joined by a second interpreter. The Innsbruck public hall, which is where the
      opening ceremonies for the Olympics were held and is also often the site of
      international conferences, was equipped to handle simultaneous interpreting in
      five languages. In addi­tion, the speaker's platform had a device that allows
      you to make a drawing on a sheet of clear plastic at your desk and have this
      immediately enlarged and projected on a large screen behind. I used this to get
      what I was saying across with my particular brand of cartooning. I usually
      manage to make myself understood when talk turns to religion and philosophy by
      depicting familiar things with these sketches.
      " -- /end quotation.

      Everyone!:
      Please read more reliable sources than you have been citing in this discussion,
      eg. Jared Diamond is notably imperfect in his popular writings, not mentioning
      anything more than them now – A world champ for popular writing of science but
      not in all these areas in which he writes popular science for scholarly writing
      of it, ie. he relies on many other people's sources, which of course means out
      of date and not all of the best scholarly ones does he have time to read and use
      in each specialised field. Some of his sources have been proved drastically
      wrong, eg. some special parts of his "Guns, Germs and Steel", "Collapse" books –
      see the files section of this groups website for a scholarly paper on specific
      aspects of "Collapse". I have more resources of this type if any of you show
      you're interested and have the time to read them all. I'm regularly disappointed
      by the level of rigour of all of us here in this group on what could be
      scholarly subjects, and hence well covered. No one to single out nor blame, and
      i think the impoverished medium leads to this lack of rigour a lot. Reading only
      very plain text makes me lose interest quicker than beautifully formatted text,
      ..., than multimedia, ..., than face to face personal interactions, ... . Please
      everyone (no one in particular) don't anyone take this to mean you can just
      assume Jared Diamond is all wrong either, whenever it suits your self–serving
      opinions, that wouldn't be building up awareness from Jared Diamond's starting
      basis; That would be going beneath Jared Diamond's information basis and losing
      awareness. In sum: Please realise the difference between scholarly writing,
      which by definition brings to the foreground the qualifications,
      knowledge–imperfections and uncertainties which we all must get to realise all
      the time, and popular writing which brings to the fore simplistic
      generalisations for bringing up the awareness of the general public who didn't
      know even those general simple awarenesses before they read such writing – many
      levels of learning, hiding behind the simple words.

      A plea here for care and some more scholarly rigour, as befits us all, as
      learners from late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei. Who in his own Japanese writing
      wrote Japanese of an impressive rigorous scholary and/or literary standard.
      However, that has not necessarily been carried in translations. Aware as i am of
      many losses in translations, which is also difficult to avoid and normal in
      translation processes – As i would expect all of you here who speak this English
      as a second or third or more language would know all too well, already.




      Biggest best wishes to all,

      Jason Stewart
      —in practice (at the moment in summer season) in the nature farm,
      region:far east gippsland,
      state: Victoria,
      Oz (vernacular for so called Australia).



      ________________________________
      From: Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...>
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: ilsott <ilsott@...>
      Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 18:58:18
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Most in this group the information is
      intuitive...we know what is right


      Dear Ilsott,

      Well I used a trick used by Sumant and just like in the case of Sumant it
      did not work.

      My first statement meant to point to the fact that we do want to curb
      overpopulation, but not when it requires our very own personal involvment.
      We are willing to commit abortions becuase that involves somebody else, but
      when it comes to committing personal suicide or killing our loved ones to
      have that less people in the world you say it is wrong.
      If you read my other posts you will realize I don't easily give up. I
      always fight back in a non-violent way be it with silence or with words.
      Sometimes I am so outspoken and I volunteer such absurd things to show the
      futility of some ideas, that I attract violent reactions from my group
      mates. That is because people are used to reading emails very rapidly
      without stopping to reflect on what was being said, then commence firing.
      Hit now think later.
      Species go extinct not because of Mother Nature but because of one of its
      creatures, Man, who can voluntarily go against the rules.
      Take the example of my country of origin, the Philippines. The Galleon
      Trade exterminated many forests, gold and silver and other metal mining
      has left bare large tracts of our mountains. If you fly over my country you
      will see lots of barren land where logging and mining have been done
      intensively for years, causing erosion and flooding. Some plant and animal
      species are now extinct because their habitats have been removed. Is that
      the fault of Nature? Let's not make the victim the criminal. That's too
      easy, and too low.

      I'm not against research, I come from a family of technical and scientific
      people. I have a high degree of university training obtained in France.
      Nobody can acuse me of being against progress and research.
      However I seek real progress and not just sloppy or haphazard solutions to
      the problems facing our world today.
      Did you watch Avatar? If not I highly recommend it. At one point the human
      colonel said "Let's stop those rebels", talking of a pacific population that
      he attacked in the first place. It's always the other person's fault.
      In my personal life I have started to downsize. I use my car as little as
      possible, I eat less meat, I give away my clothes and other things. I want
      to do Fukuoka farming. I do not use chemical pest control or fertilizers.
      I hand weed. I mulch. But I still don't know how to fukuoka farm.
      Regarding your last statement I let people think what they think or say what
      they say. Doomsday, etc. I've heard it all. I don't judge people's
      feelings, I only try to answer their questions. Not to worry Ilsot, I do
      not judge you. However, when my answers do not please, then I am considered
      to be either too pessimistic or too optimistic depending on whose ears my
      words fall.

      You said something about pathogens and me, what was that again? I didn't
      quite get your point.

      By the way I have four children instead of the normal one or two here. The
      French government is very happy with me because I have four able citizens
      who are and will be paying for the pensions of our senior citizens who are
      living longer and longer lives and getting more and more numerous. As to my
      children, I have told them not to rely on a pension but to work out a plan
      to be independent far beyond their active lives.

      best
      RUTHIE
      2011/2/24 ilsott <ilsott@...>

      >
      >
      > Dear Ruthie,
      > Your first statement in my opinion is wrong. It is not my fault that the
      > world is the way it is and I will not give up my life ("commit yahoo
      > suicide") for the actions of people I distinctly hate.
      >
      > There is always the option of fighting back, whether we want to acknowledge
      > that or not.
      >
      > As for your second statement, I believe it gives false hope and fools us
      > into having a very dangerous attitude, namely that "old mother nature can
      > take it". I mean, things really do collapse; Species really do go extinct.
      >
      > I reeeellly don't want to blow this discussion into one of overpopulation,
      > but agriculture and the mindset it requires has itself made a world in which
      > 6.8 billion people are teetering on a very dangerous edge.
      >
      > Overshoot is a very real biological fact, whether we want to acknowledge
      > that or not.
      >
      > Perhaps you don't wish to come to terms with the fact that pathogens are
      > one way in with mother nature heals itself? This is an honest question, not
      > a snide remark.
      >
      > [I'd like to pre-empt if I could accusations of "doom and gloom-ism" or
      > statements that I am to blame for spreading hate and or fear. I am honestly
      > trying to work through these things (and natural farming is very much at the
      > center of that work). Please don't shoot the messenger. I welcome any and
      > all criticisms of specific points I have made.]
      >
      > all the best,
      > ilsott
      >
      >
      > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Ruthie Aquino <ruthieaquino1@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Sumant is joking of course?
      > > If we think there are too many people on earth then we could commit yahoo
      > > group suicide, so there will be at least that less fukuoka farming mouths
      > to
      > > feed.
      > > C'mon guys, Mother Nature has all the resources to feed all of its
      > beings.
      > > Seriously, this new pathogen could hopefully be stopped soon if it
      > presents
      > > real and actual danger.
      > > best
      > > RUTHIE
      > >
      >
      >
      >

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    • Sumant Joshi
      Dear Steve, By tribal I mean a natural entity, like a human living naturally, nature expects of him/her, or an animal even. IMHO there is nothing called an
      Message 34 of 34 , Mar 7, 2011
        Dear Steve,
        By tribal I mean a natural entity, like a human living naturally, nature expects of him/her, or an animal even. IMHO there is nothing called an 'un-wanted' or harmful organism. It's nature's balancing act of limiting populations and furthering evolution. for e.g. there people who are immune to the AIDs virus. in the natural course of life, these people would have proliferated. There also is some evidence of the AIDs being very old and symptoms were visible in young children most of whom survived because of robust health.
        anything Monsanto could have done would be harmful. The very logic of selective killing of weeds is disturbing the natural balance of a living eco-system.
        DNA testing is something corporates do, for patenting it or whatever they do, with the final aim of making more profit as you have rightly pointed out.natural farming is therefore an expression of the way nature would work with a little help from us like many other animals do.


        Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone

        Warm regards,

        Sumant Joshi
        Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161

        --- On Tue, 8/3/11, Steve Grannis <grannis04@...> wrote:

        From: Steve Grannis <grannis04@...>
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] DNA analysis
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, 8 March, 2011, 5:07 AM
















         









        Dear Sumant Joshi,

        Thank you for your perspective on this however

        I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "tribal thinking of DNA testing".

        Fukuoka san was a micro biologist and I sure he would be alarmed by but not

        surprised by the emergence of a pathogen resulting from ignorant agricultural

        practices. If Monsanto was doing proper science they would have

        taken,"precautions to ensure it doesn't harm someone". Corporations are only

        concerned with maximizing profit and are not able to see the larger picture. As

        a result we could be exposed to unintended consequences that can do great harm.

        We as natural farmers hopefully have healthy soils that will resist unwanted

        micro organisms. Steve G



        ________________________________

        From: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>

        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Sun, March 6, 2011 12:22:43 AM

        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] DNA analysis



        Dear Steve,I have been meaning to make a reply to your post for some time now.

        the 'analysis' your friend has made about the pathogen seems rather scientific

        and I am rather queasy about it. This DNA testing etc has a corporate smell to

        it :))in Nature, if some plant is found to be poisonous or to contain a good

        property, it gets selected in or out in the natural scheme of things. Imagine a

        tribal thinking of DNA testing something like this. isolating it, growing it

        etc, in my humble opinion is pointless. This is precisely what Fukuoka san was

        against. there are zillions of such micro-organisms hiding there and all of them

        are changing all the time.

        why not just take precautions to ensure it doesn't harm someone? maybe the guy

        is doing it for publicity, who cares? if it is true, do what nature does, if he

        is wrong, nothing lost.



        Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone



        Warm regards,



        Sumant Joshi

        Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161



        --- On Sat, 26/2/11, Steve Grannis <grannis04@...> wrote:



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