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farming and humans

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  • Sumant Joshi
    please read a good article here
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 23, 2011
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      please read a good article here
      http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4BJlTdd9aEy-oMrG9Ekf7uOhVB7dhtUMxxA8-WFisXHVyOw5cNlVHBwNgCgFc6zMVchUNW2kfGXFTGR5U41_evUbYNpKdgQ/Jared%20Diamond%20Worst%20Mistake%20in%20the%20History%20of%20human%20race.pdf
      posted by our own group friend 'kyuusohi_u' in May 2006


      Warm regards, 
      Sumant




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ruthie Aquino
      Hi there I have not been able to read this article. Kindly give me another link to it if possible. Thanks RUTHIE 2011/2/23 Sumant Joshi
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 23, 2011
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        Hi there I have not been able to read this article. Kindly give me another
        link to it if possible.
        Thanks
        RUTHIE

        2011/2/23 Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>

        >
        >
        > please read a good article here
        >
        > http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4BJlTdd9aEy-oMrG9Ekf7uOhVB7dhtUMxxA8-WFisXHVyOw5cNlVHBwNgCgFc6zMVchUNW2kfGXFTGR5U41_evUbYNpKdgQ/Jared%20Diamond%20Worst%20Mistake%20in%20the%20History%20of%20human%20race.pdf
        > posted by our own group friend 'kyuusohi_u' in May 2006
        >
        > Warm regards,
        > Sumant
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sumant Joshi
        Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with humans is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no better
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 2, 2011
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          Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with humans is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no better than the common ant as far as changing our behaviour is concerned. we think we are intelligent. see how difficult it is to change our behaviour in light of available information on climate change, perils of deforestation etc etc. many many organisms have gone extinct due to actions of other species too. the issue here is simply of our survival.all we can do is try.... 
          btw ants too practice agriculture and it is they who invented it.


          Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone

          Warm regards,

          Sumant Joshi
          Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161

          --- On Wed, 2/3/11, Suraj <suraj@...> wrote:

          From: Suraj <suraj@...>
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: "Sumant Joshi" <sumant_jo@...>
          Date: Wednesday, 2 March, 2011, 4:55 PM



          On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:
















           









          please read a good article here

          http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4BJlTdd9aEy-oMrG9Ekf7uOhVB7dhtUMxxA8-WFisXHVyOw5cNlVHBwNgCgFc6zMVchUNW2kfGXFTGR5U41_evUbYNpKdgQ/Jared%20Diamond%20Worst%20Mistake%20in%20the%20History%20of%20human%20race.pdf


          posted by our own group friend 'kyuusohi_u' in May 2006
          The link doesn't work.

          But I've read Jared Diamond's several books ("Guns, Germs and Steel"; "The rise and fall of the third chimpanzee" and "Collapse") and I enjoyed his works.


          On an evolutionary timescale, if we converted how long humans have been
          around to a day (ie., ~2 million years == 1 day), then...

             * agriculture and domestication of animals, which has
          been around for only 14,000 years or so, is only the last 10 minutes of
          our existence.
             * modern agriculture and our modern way of life, (where we use fossil fuels to Get Things Done), has lasted for about 210 milli-seconds thus far (ie., ~300 years).


          The key difference between humans and all the other species is that we can 'change' our behaviour in a matter of minutes and at 'will' (ie., we can learn some new technique and pass on that technique to others). Whereas all other species will require nature to do that job for them over generations of evolution. So if a species is being hunted down by humans, it will take it several generations before the species can 'react' evolutionarily to step up their own arsenal against being hunted (ex: improving a technique to avoid being eaten (ie., flee or fight or camouflage better). In all other species, this behaviour will be kept in balance (ie., if one predator killed its prey too fast, the predator population naturally declines to match the new norm of prey availability). For us, the imbalance started the moment we Africa . One by one, all game animals were hunted down (from the biggest, most nutritious, most easiest to catch to the smallest, most
          dangerous and most difficult to catch).


          Hence, we're fundamentally out of sync with nature. This is due to how we quickly figure out how to exploit something. At the same time, we're pretty much the same animals where our cognitive biases continue to affect us (ex: irrational behaviors like "risk taking" and "greed").


          But that said, yes it is be true that Agriculture is not sustainable. But then, even the Sun and this Universe itself is not sustainable in the long run. On a time scale of meaning to humans (ie., several generations), there IS a possibility of doing agriculture where we 'run out' of nature's resources more slowly or even limit the damage to the rate at which nature can repair.


          cheers,

            -Suraj






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Suraj
          ... I think you missed my point. The invention of farming by ants is akin to the invention of flight by birds. True, they did it first and most human
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 8, 2011
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            On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with humans
            > is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no
            > better than the common ant as far
            >

            I think you missed my point. The 'invention' of farming by ants is akin to
            the invention of flight by birds. True, they did it first and most human
            inventions are nothing new. However, all species do these through the slow
            process of evolution. One ant cannot possibly see that it is running out of
            its resource base. Whereas, we humans can. We can also adapt quickly and
            exploit (ex: for a cheetah to start hunting a new prey in a radically
            different way (ex: to swim and catch fish) because its earlier prey has been
            pushed to extinction, it takes several generations. Whereas a human being
            just needs to get the idea to build a net and start fishing). This is where
            humans are fundamentally 'out of sync' with the speed of everything else...


            > as changing our behaviour is concerned. we think we are intelligent. see
            > how difficult it is to change our behaviour in light of available
            > information on climate change, perils of
            >
            True, which is what I meant by "we continue to be affected by our animal
            nature - our cognitive biases that are a result of this animal nature". But
            that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss or attempt to change. Infact, we CAN
            change if given enough thought. Afterall, who are the members of this forum?
            People having understood / felt a fundamental problem are looking for ways
            to change. Isn't it? :)

            -Suraj

            --
            "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
            our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
            Dr. Albert Bartlett


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sumant Joshi
            Dear Suraj, ... or is it that we suddenly have more intelligence now?and btw, how many of us enlightened people have stopped using a vehicle, car scooter
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 8, 2011
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              Dear Suraj,
              :)) I have understood your point perfectly. Yes, some of us have understood that there is a problem, yes we have the intellect yes, yes, yes, but then why did all those societies fail? Anasazi, Maya, Easter Island, Hohokam .....
              or is it that we suddenly have more intelligence now?and btw, how many of us 'enlightened' people have stopped using a vehicle, car scooter whatever? how many of us have stopped our wasteful living. I haven't for whatever reasons. reducing isn't the same as doing it. and even if some of us are really trying, God bless them, what is the percentage compared to those who aren't enlightened? maybe 1 percent? my point is simple, as long as we think we are somehow superior to other life forms due to our intellect, there is little hope for us. I mean how come we don't seem to learn anything from history?
              so it falls upon us enlightened ones to spread the 'word' and in that there is hope.I am making a small small small attempt on my part by trying to understand the whole thing myself and maybe in time educating others.



              Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone

              Warm regards,

              Sumant Joshi
              Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161

              --- On Wed, 9/3/11, Suraj <suraj@...> wrote:

              From: Suraj <suraj@...>
              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: "Sumant Joshi" <sumant_jo@...>
              Date: Wednesday, 9 March, 2011, 7:14 AM



              On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:
















               









              Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with humans is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no better than the common ant as far

              I think you missed my point. The 'invention' of farming by ants is akin to the invention of flight by birds. True, they did it first and most human inventions are nothing new. However, all species do these through the slow process of evolution. One ant cannot possibly see that it is running out of its resource base. Whereas, we humans can. We can also adapt quickly and exploit (ex: for a cheetah to start hunting a new prey in a radically different way (ex: to swim and catch fish) because its earlier prey has been pushed to extinction, it takes several generations. Whereas a human being just needs to get the idea to build a net and start fishing). This is where humans are fundamentally 'out of sync' with the speed of everything else...

               as changing our behaviour is concerned. we think we are intelligent. see how difficult it is to change our behaviour in light of available information on climate change, perils of 

              True, which is what I meant by "we continue to be affected by our animal nature - our cognitive biases that are a result of this animal nature". But that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss or attempt to change. Infact, we CAN change if given enough thought. Afterall, who are the members of this forum? People having understood / felt a fundamental problem are looking for ways to change. Isn't it? :)


                -Suraj

              --
              "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
              our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
              Dr. Albert Bartlett






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ruthie Aquino
              Hi guys, Gasoline prices in Europe have reached an all-time high. However I take my bike very rarely, only when there is little traffic. You see there are
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 8, 2011
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                Hi guys,
                Gasoline prices in Europe have reached an all-time high. However I take my
                bike very rarely, only when there is little traffic. You see there are many
                many fast cars and trucks and I am too vulnerable on my bike.
                I feel like a lone ranger.

                RUTHIE

                2011/3/9 Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>

                >
                >
                > Dear Suraj,
                > :)) I have understood your point perfectly. Yes, some of us have understood
                > that there is a problem, yes we have the intellect yes, yes, yes, but then
                > why did all those societies fail? Anasazi, Maya, Easter Island, Hohokam
                > .....
                > or is it that we suddenly have more intelligence now?and btw, how many of
                > us 'enlightened' people have stopped using a vehicle, car scooter whatever?
                > how many of us have stopped our wasteful living. I haven't for whatever
                > reasons. reducing isn't the same as doing it. and even if some of us are
                > really trying, God bless them, what is the percentage compared to those who
                > aren't enlightened? maybe 1 percent? my point is simple, as long as we think
                > we are somehow superior to other life forms due to our intellect, there is
                > little hope for us. I mean how come we don't seem to learn anything from
                > history?
                > so it falls upon us enlightened ones to spread the 'word' and in that there
                > is hope.I am making a small small small attempt on my part by trying to
                > understand the whole thing myself and maybe in time educating others.
                >
                >
                > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
                >
                > Warm regards,
                >
                > Sumant Joshi
                > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
                >
                > --- On Wed, 9/3/11, Suraj <suraj@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: Suraj <suraj@...>
                > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
                > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                > Cc: "Sumant Joshi" <sumant_jo@...>
                > Date: Wednesday, 9 March, 2011, 7:14 AM
                >
                >
                > On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with humans
                > is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no
                > better than the common ant as far
                >
                > I think you missed my point. The 'invention' of farming by ants is akin to
                > the invention of flight by birds. True, they did it first and most human
                > inventions are nothing new. However, all species do these through the slow
                > process of evolution. One ant cannot possibly see that it is running out of
                > its resource base. Whereas, we humans can. We can also adapt quickly and
                > exploit (ex: for a cheetah to start hunting a new prey in a radically
                > different way (ex: to swim and catch fish) because its earlier prey has been
                > pushed to extinction, it takes several generations. Whereas a human being
                > just needs to get the idea to build a net and start fishing). This is where
                > humans are fundamentally 'out of sync' with the speed of everything else...
                >
                > as changing our behaviour is concerned. we think we are intelligent. see
                > how difficult it is to change our behaviour in light of available
                > information on climate change, perils of
                >
                > True, which is what I meant by "we continue to be affected by our animal
                > nature - our cognitive biases that are a result of this animal nature". But
                > that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss or attempt to change. Infact, we CAN
                > change if given enough thought. Afterall, who are the members of this forum?
                > People having understood / felt a fundamental problem are looking for ways
                > to change. Isn't it? :)
                >
                > -Suraj
                >
                > --
                > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                > Dr. Albert Bartlett
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jason Stewart
                What did humans really truly invent for the first time anywhere that we know of in the universe, the vain (ego) pride that human agriculture is superior to
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 10, 2011
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                  What did humans really truly invent for the first time anywhere that we know of
                  in the universe,
                  the vain (ego) pride that human agriculture is superior to nature farming, to so
                  called by agriculturalists hunter-gatherers, etc.

                  The ego is the real invention since at least 'Western' agriculture, and it
                  doesn't exist in reality only false in illusion and delusion and in needless
                  competition and in... . As you know.

                  Where did this real invention come from? Well one line of evidence amongst
                  others is :
                  (See link within this link here and read widely around this scholarly evidence
                  please, i have much more links and documents if you request. See also the files
                  section here in this group for more on this.)
                  -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/messages/3081

                  Amongst others, like Sigmund Freud inventing the literal so called "ego" and so
                  called "super-ego"

                  ... (busy at the moment, Jase).

                  ________________________________
                  From: Suraj <suraj@...>
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2011 12:44:51
                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans


                  On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with humans
                  > is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no
                  > better than the common ant as far
                  >

                  I think you missed my point. The 'invention' of farming by ants is akin to
                  the invention of flight by birds. True, they did it first and most human
                  inventions are nothing new. However, all species do these through the slow
                  process of evolution. One ant cannot possibly see that it is running out of
                  its resource base. Whereas, we humans can. We can also adapt quickly and
                  exploit (ex: for a cheetah to start hunting a new prey in a radically
                  different way (ex: to swim and catch fish) because its earlier prey has been
                  pushed to extinction, it takes several generations. Whereas a human being
                  just needs to get the idea to build a net and start fishing). This is where
                  humans are fundamentally 'out of sync' with the speed of everything else...

                  > as changing our behaviour is concerned. we think we are intelligent. see
                  > how difficult it is to change our behaviour in light of available
                  > information on climate change, perils of
                  >
                  True, which is what I meant by "we continue to be affected by our animal
                  nature - our cognitive biases that are a result of this animal nature". But
                  that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss or attempt to change. Infact, we CAN
                  change if given enough thought. Afterall, who are the members of this forum?
                  People having understood / felt a fundamental problem are looking for ways
                  to change. Isn't it? :)

                  -Suraj

                  --
                  "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                  our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                  Dr. Albert Bartlett

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jason Stewart
                  What did humans really truly invent for the first time anywhere that we know of in the universe, the vain (ego) pride that human agriculture is superior to
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 10, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    What did humans really truly invent for the first time anywhere that we know of
                    in the universe,
                    the vain (ego) pride that human agriculture is superior to nature farming, to so
                    called by agriculturalists hunter-gatherers, etc.

                    The ego is the real invention since at least 'Western' agriculture, and it
                    doesn't exist in reality only false in illusion and delusion and in needless
                    competition and in... . As you know.

                    Where did this real invention come from? Well one line of evidence amongst
                    others is :
                    (See link within this link here and read widely around this scholarly evidence
                    please, i have much more links and documents if you request. See also the files
                    section here in this group for more on this.)
                    -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/messages/3081

                    Amongst others, like Sigmund Freud inventing the literal so called "ego" and so
                    called "super-ego"

                    ... (busy at the moment, Jase).

                    ________________________________
                    From: Suraj <suraj@...>
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Cc: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2011 12:44:51
                    Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans


                    On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with humans
                    > is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no
                    > better than the common ant as far
                    >

                    I think you missed my point. The 'invention' of farming by ants is akin to
                    the invention of flight by birds. True, they did it first and most human
                    inventions are nothing new. However, all species do these through the slow
                    process of evolution. One ant cannot possibly see that it is running out of
                    its resource base. Whereas, we humans can. We can also adapt quickly and
                    exploit (ex: for a cheetah to start hunting a new prey in a radically
                    different way (ex: to swim and catch fish) because its earlier prey has been
                    pushed to extinction, it takes several generations. Whereas a human being
                    just needs to get the idea to build a net and start fishing). This is where
                    humans are fundamentally 'out of sync' with the speed of everything else...

                    > as changing our behaviour is concerned. we think we are intelligent. see
                    > how difficult it is to change our behaviour in light of available
                    > information on climate change, perils of
                    >
                    True, which is what I meant by "we continue to be affected by our animal
                    nature - our cognitive biases that are a result of this animal nature". But
                    that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss or attempt to change. Infact, we CAN
                    change if given enough thought. Afterall, who are the members of this forum?
                    People having understood / felt a fundamental problem are looking for ways
                    to change. Isn't it? :)

                    -Suraj

                    --
                    "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                    our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                    Dr. Albert Bartlett

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sumant Joshi
                    Agree completely. :)) Suraj, there are monkeys in Japan who have learnt to wash their food before eating it. The idea is not to demean humans but to say that
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 10, 2011
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                      Agree completely. :)) Suraj, there are monkeys in Japan who have learnt to wash their food before eating it.
                      The idea is not to demean humans but to say that they are as intelligent or as dumb as most life forms on Earth. Once we understand that, we can take steps to do something about the mess we are in. Yes, they can adapt quickly but so can ants and monkeys and what not. Don't be fooled by spaceships and other gadgets humans have invented. The farming techniques developed by ants are extremely sophisticated and monkeys too have a very complex social organization.
                      We are still ruled by nature's laws. read 'the selfish gene' by Richard Dawkins.
                      like I said earlier, humans may 'know' their environment is in danger, but they are too slow in reacting and changing.
                      And you aren't in a minority when you say "One ant cannot possibly see that it is running out of its resource base. Whereas, we humans can". 99% of people on Earth do not (want to) see that our resources are running out despite irrefutable evidence. How dumb can one get!!

                      Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone

                      Warm regards,

                      Sumant Joshi
                      Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161

                      --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...> wrote:

                      From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 7:05 AM
















                       









                      What did humans really truly invent for the first time anywhere that we know of

                      in the universe,

                      the vain (ego) pride that human agriculture is superior to nature farming, to so

                      called by agriculturalists hunter-gatherers, etc.



                      The ego is the real invention since at least 'Western' agriculture, and it

                      doesn't exist in reality only false in illusion and delusion and in needless

                      competition and in... . As you know.



                      Where did this real invention come from? Well one line of evidence amongst

                      others is :

                      (See link within this link here and read widely around this scholarly evidence

                      please, i have much more links and documents if you request. See also the files

                      section here in this group for more on this.)

                      -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/messages/3081



                      Amongst others, like Sigmund Freud inventing the literal so called "ego" and so

                      called "super-ego"



                      ... (busy at the moment, Jase).



                      ________________________________

                      From: Suraj <suraj@...>

                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

                      Cc: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>

                      Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2011 12:44:51

                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans



                      On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:



                      >

                      >

                      > Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with humans

                      > is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no

                      > better than the common ant as far

                      >



                      I think you missed my point. The 'invention' of farming by ants is akin to

                      the invention of flight by birds. True, they did it first and most human

                      inventions are nothing new. However, all species do these through the slow

                      process of evolution. One ant cannot possibly see that it is running out of

                      its resource base. Whereas, we humans can. We can also adapt quickly and

                      exploit (ex: for a cheetah to start hunting a new prey in a radically

                      different way (ex: to swim and catch fish) because its earlier prey has been

                      pushed to extinction, it takes several generations. Whereas a human being

                      just needs to get the idea to build a net and start fishing). This is where

                      humans are fundamentally 'out of sync' with the speed of everything else...



                      > as changing our behaviour is concerned. we think we are intelligent. see

                      > how difficult it is to change our behaviour in light of available

                      > information on climate change, perils of

                      >

                      True, which is what I meant by "we continue to be affected by our animal

                      nature - our cognitive biases that are a result of this animal nature". But

                      that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss or attempt to change. Infact, we CAN

                      change if given enough thought. Afterall, who are the members of this forum?

                      People having understood / felt a fundamental problem are looking for ways

                      to change. Isn't it? :)



                      -Suraj



                      --

                      "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is

                      our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"

                      Dr. Albert Bartlett



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jason Stewart
                      ...Dawkins got it totally wrong... in his supposed selfish gene polemic-thesis... As per no basis for it at the start, now, nor any gene evidence. Plentiful
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 10, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        ...Dawkins got it totally wrong...
                        in his supposed selfish gene polemic-thesis...
                        As per no basis for it at the start, now, nor any gene evidence.
                        Plentiful evidence continues to mount up that humans have nature of
                        mutualism/alturism (goodness and symbiosis), always of course with potential for
                        conditioned, received–learned badness.
                        To the extent that some blockbuster feature fiction movies in the cinemas over
                        the last few years have based some of their plots on this non-fiction mounting
                        science.
                        Sumant, I object to you using my words to "agree completely" with and
                        associating such with Dawkins dog–eat–dog personal world view. Dog–eat–dog
                        personal world view dressed up using his towering Darwinist academic standing as
                        if it were science. When it fact so called selfish genes was never science, just
                        his personal pseudo-science mildly and superficially–scientific–style–of–wording
                        rant at his fundamentalist pseudo-Christian family background, involving
                        dogmatically battering him as a boy, that humans have to behave, be good like
                        Jesus, etc. Dawkins personal life was one of being brought up beaten-down by
                        dogmatic fundamentalist pseudo–Christian family–parents, really battered,
                        brainwashed and suppressed; I used concise words there to recount it, what he
                        said himself; I've heard him speaking himself about his treatment and upbringing
                        by his family in his own speeches about all that related area.
                        ... And now in the last 30 years or so Dawkins has been reacting against that to
                        another polemic extreme, of obvious unresolved personal issues.

                        A reminder of philosophy basics: just because one idea has been disproved,
                        doesn't make all competing ideas proved (right). Philosophically, hypothetically
                        on a given subject all human ideas can come from complete ignorance –stabbing in
                        the dark or in confusion– and therefore all ideas be wrong, irrespective of if
                        one of them was disproved, as wrong. Science having disproved that individual
                        people's notions of God as a projection of their ego-illusion(s) into the comsos
                        and labelled as God, has not proved anything. god has not been disproved, just
                        the notions of god which were based on wrong ideas in the first place.
                        Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu said words like, paraphrasing, God watches or doesn't
                        watch and stays silent.

                        The point that we are still ruled by the inescapable combination of the
                        interaction of our genes with our habitat and society ('environment'), carries
                        and is sustained by plentiful evidence, as you were saying.

                        ...I'm busy, sorry. There are masses of references for all this, from Dawkins
                        personal life history told in his own words, to evidence of at once all of
                        altruism, mutualism. Try Natalie Angier on altrusim, excellent concise, plain
                        and simple English writing straight to the point with evidence she cites ...

                        ________________________________
                        From: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>
                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 13:17:20
                        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans


                        Agree completely. :)) Suraj, there are monkeys in Japan who have learnt to wash
                        their food before eating it.
                        The idea is not to demean humans but to say that they are as intelligent or as
                        dumb as most life forms on Earth. Once we understand that, we can take steps to
                        do something about the mess we are in. Yes, they can adapt quickly but so can
                        ants and monkeys and what not. Don't be fooled by spaceships and
                        other gadgets humans have invented. The farming techniques developed by ants are
                        extremely sophisticated and monkeys too have a very complex social organization.
                        We are still ruled by nature's laws. read 'the selfish gene' by Richard Dawkins.
                        like I said earlier, humans may 'know' their environment is in danger, but they
                        are too slow in reacting and changing.
                        And you aren't in a minority when you say "One ant cannot possibly see that it
                        is running out of its resource base. Whereas, we humans can". 99% of people on
                        Earth do not (want to) see that our resources are running out despite
                        irrefutable evidence. How dumb can one get!!

                        Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone

                        Warm regards,

                        Sumant Joshi
                        Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161

                        --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...> wrote:

                        From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
                        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 7:05 AM



                        What did humans really truly invent for the first time anywhere that we know of

                        in the universe,

                        the vain (ego) pride that human agriculture is superior to nature farming, to so


                        called by agriculturalists hunter-gatherers, etc.

                        The ego is the real invention since at least 'Western' agriculture, and it

                        doesn't exist in reality only false in illusion and delusion and in needless

                        competition and in... . As you know.

                        Where did this real invention come from? Well one line of evidence amongst

                        others is :

                        (See link within this link here and read widely around this scholarly evidence

                        please, i have much more links and documents if you request. See also the files

                        section here in this group for more on this.)

                        -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/messages/3081

                        Amongst others, like Sigmund Freud inventing the literal so called "ego" and so

                        called "super-ego"

                        ... (busy at the moment, Jase).

                        ________________________________

                        From: Suraj <suraj@...>

                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

                        Cc: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>

                        Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2011 12:44:51

                        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans

                        On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:

                        >

                        >

                        > Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with humans

                        > is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no

                        > better than the common ant as far

                        >

                        I think you missed my point. The 'invention' of farming by ants is akin to

                        the invention of flight by birds. True, they did it first and most human

                        inventions are nothing new. However, all species do these through the slow

                        process of evolution. One ant cannot possibly see that it is running out of

                        its resource base. Whereas, we humans can. We can also adapt quickly and

                        exploit (ex: for a cheetah to start hunting a new prey in a radically

                        different way (ex: to swim and catch fish) because its earlier prey has been

                        pushed to extinction, it takes several generations. Whereas a human being

                        just needs to get the idea to build a net and start fishing). This is where

                        humans are fundamentally 'out of sync' with the speed of everything else...

                        > as changing our behaviour is concerned. we think we are intelligent. see

                        > how difficult it is to change our behaviour in light of available

                        > information on climate change, perils of

                        >

                        True, which is what I meant by "we continue to be affected by our animal

                        nature - our cognitive biases that are a result of this animal nature". But

                        that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss or attempt to change. Infact, we CAN

                        change if given enough thought. Afterall, who are the members of this forum?

                        People having understood / felt a fundamental problem are looking for ways

                        to change. Isn't it? :)

                        -Suraj

                        --

                        "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is

                        our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"

                        Dr. Albert Bartlett

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Sumant Joshi
                        Dear Jason,:)) Thats all right, objection noted and I object to your using words like totally wrong when using it for anyone. What it implies is that Dawkins
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 10, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Jason,:))
                          Thats all right, objection noted and I object to your using words like "totally wrong" when using it for anyone. What it implies is that Dawkins lived a wasted life and was better off not having existed which isn't quite right.I am sure the audience on this forum here are educated enough to form their own opinions after they have read what needs to be read. No one is ever dead right or dead wrong including  me or you.

                           btw I recommend a book for everyone called 'leadership and self deception' by the Arbinger Institute.



                          Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone

                          Warm regards,

                          Sumant Joshi
                          Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161

                          --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...> wrote:

                          From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
                          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
                          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 9:57 AM
















                           









                          ...Dawkins got it totally wrong...

                          in his supposed selfish gene polemic-thesis...

                          As per no basis for it at the start, now, nor any gene evidence.

                          Plentiful evidence continues to mount up that humans have nature of

                          mutualism/alturism (goodness and symbiosis), always of course with potential for

                          conditioned, received–learned badness.

                          To the extent that some blockbuster feature fiction movies in the cinemas over

                          the last few years have based some of their plots on this non-fiction mounting

                          science.

                          Sumant, I object to you using my words to "agree completely" with and

                          associating such with Dawkins dog–eat–dog personal world view. Dog–eat–dog

                          personal world view dressed up using his towering Darwinist academic standing as

                          if it were science. When it fact so called selfish genes was never science, just

                          his personal pseudo-science mildly and superficially–scientific–style–of–wording

                          rant at his fundamentalist pseudo-Christian family background, involving

                          dogmatically battering him as a boy, that humans have to behave, be good like

                          Jesus, etc. Dawkins personal life was one of being brought up beaten-down by

                          dogmatic fundamentalist pseudo–Christian family–parents, really battered,

                          brainwashed and suppressed; I used concise words there to recount it, what he

                          said himself; I've heard him speaking himself about his treatment and upbringing

                          by his family in his own speeches about all that related area.

                          ... And now in the last 30 years or so Dawkins has been reacting against that to

                          another polemic extreme, of obvious unresolved personal issues.



                          A reminder of philosophy basics: just because one idea has been disproved,

                          doesn't make all competing ideas proved (right). Philosophically, hypothetically

                          on a given subject all human ideas can come from complete ignorance –stabbing in

                          the dark or in confusion– and therefore all ideas be wrong, irrespective of if

                          one of them was disproved, as wrong. Science having disproved that individual

                          people's notions of God as a projection of their ego-illusion(s) into the comsos

                          and labelled as God, has not proved anything. god has not been disproved, just

                          the notions of god which were based on wrong ideas in the first place.

                          Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu said words like, paraphrasing, God watches or doesn't

                          watch and stays silent.



                          The point that we are still ruled by the inescapable combination of the

                          interaction of our genes with our habitat and society ('environment'), carries

                          and is sustained by plentiful evidence, as you were saying.



                          ...I'm busy, sorry. There are masses of references for all this, from Dawkins

                          personal life history told in his own words, to evidence of at once all of

                          altruism, mutualism. Try Natalie Angier on altrusim, excellent concise, plain

                          and simple English writing straight to the point with evidence she cites ...



                          ________________________________

                          From: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>

                          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

                          Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 13:17:20

                          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans



                          Agree completely. :)) Suraj, there are monkeys in Japan who have learnt to wash

                          their food before eating it.

                          The idea is not to demean humans but to say that they are as intelligent or as

                          dumb as most life forms on Earth. Once we understand that, we can take steps to

                          do something about the mess we are in. Yes, they can adapt quickly but so can

                          ants and monkeys and what not. Don't be fooled by spaceships and

                          other gadgets humans have invented. The farming techniques developed by ants are

                          extremely sophisticated and monkeys too have a very complex social organization.

                          We are still ruled by nature's laws. read 'the selfish gene' by Richard Dawkins.

                          like I said earlier, humans may 'know' their environment is in danger, but they

                          are too slow in reacting and changing.

                          And you aren't in a minority when you say "One ant cannot possibly see that it

                          is running out of its resource base. Whereas, we humans can". 99% of people on

                          Earth do not (want to) see that our resources are running out despite

                          irrefutable evidence. How dumb can one get!!



                          Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone



                          Warm regards,



                          Sumant Joshi

                          Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161



                          --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...> wrote:



                          From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>

                          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans

                          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

                          Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 7:05 AM



                          What did humans really truly invent for the first time anywhere that we know of



                          in the universe,



                          the vain (ego) pride that human agriculture is superior to nature farming, to so



                          called by agriculturalists hunter-gatherers, etc.



                          The ego is the real invention since at least 'Western' agriculture, and it



                          doesn't exist in reality only false in illusion and delusion and in needless



                          competition and in... . As you know.



                          Where did this real invention come from? Well one line of evidence amongst



                          others is :



                          (See link within this link here and read widely around this scholarly evidence



                          please, i have much more links and documents if you request. See also the files



                          section here in this group for more on this.)



                          -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/messages/3081



                          Amongst others, like Sigmund Freud inventing the literal so called "ego" and so



                          called "super-ego"



                          ... (busy at the moment, Jase).



                          ________________________________



                          From: Suraj <suraj@...>



                          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com



                          Cc: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>



                          Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2011 12:44:51



                          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans



                          On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:



                          >



                          >



                          > Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with humans



                          > is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no



                          > better than the common ant as far



                          >



                          I think you missed my point. The 'invention' of farming by ants is akin to



                          the invention of flight by birds. True, they did it first and most human



                          inventions are nothing new. However, all species do these through the slow



                          process of evolution. One ant cannot possibly see that it is running out of



                          its resource base. Whereas, we humans can. We can also adapt quickly and



                          exploit (ex: for a cheetah to start hunting a new prey in a radically



                          different way (ex: to swim and catch fish) because its earlier prey has been



                          pushed to extinction, it takes several generations. Whereas a human being



                          just needs to get the idea to build a net and start fishing). This is where



                          humans are fundamentally 'out of sync' with the speed of everything else...



                          > as changing our behaviour is concerned. we think we are intelligent. see



                          > how difficult it is to change our behaviour in light of available



                          > information on climate change, perils of



                          >



                          True, which is what I meant by "we continue to be affected by our animal



                          nature - our cognitive biases that are a result of this animal nature". But



                          that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss or attempt to change. Infact, we CAN



                          change if given enough thought. Afterall, who are the members of this forum?



                          People having understood / felt a fundamental problem are looking for ways



                          to change. Isn't it? :)



                          -Suraj



                          --



                          "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is



                          our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"



                          Dr. Albert Bartlett



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ruthie Aquino
                          Jason, guys, Can we leave out religion for a while? There are many religious people here. Even someone who claims some form of pseudo-atheism has a god :
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 11, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jason, guys,
                            Can we leave out religion for a while?
                            There are many religious people here.
                            Even someone who claims some form of pseudo-atheism has a god : himself. He
                            considers others to be misled souls and himself to be an enlightened one.
                            Now if someone considers science as his god or guide...ahem...what's he
                            doing in fukuoka farming?
                            God bless
                            RUTHIE

                            2011/3/11 Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>

                            >
                            >
                            > Dear Jason,:))
                            > Thats all right, objection noted and I object to your using words like
                            > "totally wrong" when using it for anyone. What it implies is that Dawkins
                            > lived a wasted life and was better off not having existed which isn't quite
                            > right.I am sure the audience on this forum here are educated enough to form
                            > their own opinions after they have read what needs to be read. No one is
                            > ever dead right or dead wrong including me or you.
                            >
                            > btw I recommend a book for everyone called 'leadership and self deception'
                            > by the Arbinger Institute.
                            >
                            >
                            > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
                            >
                            > Warm regards,
                            >
                            > Sumant Joshi
                            > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
                            >
                            > --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
                            > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
                            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 9:57 AM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ...Dawkins got it totally wrong...
                            >
                            > in his supposed selfish gene polemic-thesis...
                            >
                            > As per no basis for it at the start, now, nor any gene evidence.
                            >
                            > Plentiful evidence continues to mount up that humans have nature of
                            >
                            > mutualism/alturism (goodness and symbiosis), always of course with
                            > potential for
                            >
                            > conditioned, received�learned badness.
                            >
                            > To the extent that some blockbuster feature fiction movies in the cinemas
                            > over
                            >
                            > the last few years have based some of their plots on this non-fiction
                            > mounting
                            >
                            > science.
                            >
                            > Sumant, I object to you using my words to "agree completely" with and
                            >
                            > associating such with Dawkins dog�eat�dog personal world view. Dog�eat�dog
                            >
                            > personal world view dressed up using his towering Darwinist academic
                            > standing as
                            >
                            > if it were science. When it fact so called selfish genes was never science,
                            > just
                            >
                            > his personal pseudo-science mildly and
                            > superficially�scientific�style�of�wording
                            >
                            > rant at his fundamentalist pseudo-Christian family background, involving
                            >
                            > dogmatically battering him as a boy, that humans have to behave, be good
                            > like
                            >
                            > Jesus, etc. Dawkins personal life was one of being brought up beaten-down
                            > by
                            >
                            > dogmatic fundamentalist pseudo�Christian family�parents, really battered,
                            >
                            > brainwashed and suppressed; I used concise words there to recount it, what
                            > he
                            >
                            > said himself; I've heard him speaking himself about his treatment and
                            > upbringing
                            >
                            > by his family in his own speeches about all that related area.
                            >
                            > ... And now in the last 30 years or so Dawkins has been reacting against
                            > that to
                            >
                            > another polemic extreme, of obvious unresolved personal issues.
                            >
                            > A reminder of philosophy basics: just because one idea has been disproved,
                            >
                            > doesn't make all competing ideas proved (right). Philosophically,
                            > hypothetically
                            >
                            > on a given subject all human ideas can come from complete ignorance
                            > �stabbing in
                            >
                            > the dark or in confusion� and therefore all ideas be wrong, irrespective of
                            > if
                            >
                            > one of them was disproved, as wrong. Science having disproved that
                            > individual
                            >
                            > people's notions of God as a projection of their ego-illusion(s) into the
                            > comsos
                            >
                            > and labelled as God, has not proved anything. god has not been disproved,
                            > just
                            >
                            > the notions of god which were based on wrong ideas in the first place.
                            >
                            > Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu said words like, paraphrasing, God watches or
                            > doesn't
                            >
                            > watch and stays silent.
                            >
                            > The point that we are still ruled by the inescapable combination of the
                            >
                            > interaction of our genes with our habitat and society ('environment'),
                            > carries
                            >
                            > and is sustained by plentiful evidence, as you were saying.
                            >
                            > ...I'm busy, sorry. There are masses of references for all this, from
                            > Dawkins
                            >
                            > personal life history told in his own words, to evidence of at once all of
                            >
                            > altruism, mutualism. Try Natalie Angier on altrusim, excellent concise,
                            > plain
                            >
                            > and simple English writing straight to the point with evidence she cites
                            > ...
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            >
                            > From: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>
                            >
                            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 13:17:20
                            >
                            > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
                            >
                            > Agree completely. :)) Suraj, there are monkeys in Japan who have learnt to
                            > wash
                            >
                            > their food before eating it.
                            >
                            > The idea is not to demean humans but to say that they are as intelligent or
                            > as
                            >
                            > dumb as most life forms on Earth. Once we understand that, we can take
                            > steps to
                            >
                            > do something about the mess we are in. Yes, they can adapt quickly but so
                            > can
                            >
                            > ants and monkeys and what not. Don't be fooled by spaceships and
                            >
                            > other gadgets humans have invented. The farming techniques developed by
                            > ants are
                            >
                            > extremely sophisticated and monkeys too have a very complex social
                            > organization.
                            >
                            > We are still ruled by nature's laws. read 'the selfish gene' by Richard
                            > Dawkins.
                            >
                            > like I said earlier, humans may 'know' their environment is in danger, but
                            > they
                            >
                            > are too slow in reacting and changing.
                            >
                            > And you aren't in a minority when you say "One ant cannot possibly see that
                            > it
                            >
                            > is running out of its resource base. Whereas, we humans can". 99% of people
                            > on
                            >
                            > Earth do not (want to) see that our resources are running out despite
                            >
                            > irrefutable evidence. How dumb can one get!!
                            >
                            > Sent from my BSNL landline B-fone
                            >
                            > Warm regards,
                            >
                            > Sumant Joshi
                            >
                            > Tel - 09370010424, 0253-2361161
                            >
                            > --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
                            >
                            > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
                            >
                            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 7:05 AM
                            >
                            > What did humans really truly invent for the first time anywhere that we
                            > know of
                            >
                            > in the universe,
                            >
                            > the vain (ego) pride that human agriculture is superior to nature farming,
                            > to so
                            >
                            > called by agriculturalists hunter-gatherers, etc.
                            >
                            > The ego is the real invention since at least 'Western' agriculture, and it
                            >
                            > doesn't exist in reality only false in illusion and delusion and in
                            > needless
                            >
                            > competition and in... . As you know.
                            >
                            > Where did this real invention come from? Well one line of evidence amongst
                            >
                            > others is :
                            >
                            > (See link within this link here and read widely around this scholarly
                            > evidence
                            >
                            > please, i have much more links and documents if you request. See also the
                            > files
                            >
                            > section here in this group for more on this.)
                            >
                            > -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/messages/3081
                            >
                            > Amongst others, like Sigmund Freud inventing the literal so called "ego"
                            > and so
                            >
                            > called "super-ego"
                            >
                            > ... (busy at the moment, Jase).
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            >
                            > From: Suraj <suraj@...>
                            >
                            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Cc: Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...>
                            >
                            > Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2011 12:44:51
                            >
                            > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] farming and humans
                            >
                            > On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Sumant Joshi <sumant_jo@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > Well, I have slight difference of opinion. one of the problems with
                            > humans
                            >
                            > > is that we think we are above nature, we are different. I think we are no
                            >
                            > > better than the common ant as far
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > I think you missed my point. The 'invention' of farming by ants is akin to
                            >
                            > the invention of flight by birds. True, they did it first and most human
                            >
                            > inventions are nothing new. However, all species do these through the slow
                            >
                            > process of evolution. One ant cannot possibly see that it is running out of
                            >
                            > its resource base. Whereas, we humans can. We can also adapt quickly and
                            >
                            > exploit (ex: for a cheetah to start hunting a new prey in a radically
                            >
                            > different way (ex: to swim and catch fish) because its earlier prey has
                            > been
                            >
                            > pushed to extinction, it takes several generations. Whereas a human being
                            >
                            > just needs to get the idea to build a net and start fishing). This is where
                            >
                            > humans are fundamentally 'out of sync' with the speed of everything else...
                            >
                            > > as changing our behaviour is concerned. we think we are intelligent. see
                            >
                            > > how difficult it is to change our behaviour in light of available
                            >
                            > > information on climate change, perils of
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > True, which is what I meant by "we continue to be affected by our animal
                            >
                            > nature - our cognitive biases that are a result of this animal nature". But
                            >
                            > that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss or attempt to change. Infact, we CAN
                            >
                            > change if given enough thought. Afterall, who are the members of this
                            > forum?
                            >
                            > People having understood / felt a fundamental problem are looking for ways
                            >
                            > to change. Isn't it? :)
                            >
                            > -Suraj
                            >
                            > --
                            >
                            > "The Greatest Shortcoming of the Human Race is
                            >
                            > our Inability to Understand the Exponential Function"
                            >
                            > Dr. Albert Bartlett
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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