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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts (short reply)

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  • Jason Stewart
    Dear all, and Norm, In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei s natural people , Norm you are depressingly–falsely tarring original natural
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
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      Dear all, and Norm,

      In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural people", Norm you
      are depressingly–falsely 'tarring' original "natural people" with the tar-brush
      of obviously–the–extreme–of–world–history examples of, my ancestors, greedy,
      land–grabbing–stealing, destructive (to nature and self=all nature), invading,
      grossly unsustainable, child–enslaving & African–enslaving–trading, historical
      Western European & Middle Eastern peoples (as i wrote as the extreme example
      peoples – often distinct as people speaking languages of the Indo-European
      language family and the inventors of the only *extremely–expansionary* forms of
      unsustainable agriculture)

      One key scholarly reference example:
      Harris, D. (2002). The expansion capacity of early agricultural systems: a
      comparative perspective on the spread of agriculture.In P. Bellwood and C.
      Renfrew eds,Examining the Farming/Language Dispersal Hypothesis, pp. 31–40.
      Cambridge: McDonald Institute for Archaeological
      Research.

      -----------------------

      In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural faming" "natural
      people", Norm you are passing on lies by your writing "the Aborigines didn't
      have any form of agriculture".


      Scholarly References (i have and have read all these papers, and can supply them
      if really needed):
      *
      Convincing Ground: Learning to Fall in love with your country

      ________________________________

      Bruce PASCOE
      Availability: Print
      Electronic Book Format: www.ebooks.com
      April 2007, pb, 234x153mm, 304pp, b/w illus
      RRP $39.95 incl. GST
      ISBN 9780855755492
      | Contents | Sample Chapter | Index | Reviews |





























      -> http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/asp/aspbooks/convground.html


      * Gammage, Bill 2003. Australia Under Aboriginal Management, 15th Barry Andrews
      Memorial Lecture,
      2002, Canberra: University College, University of NSW, Australian Defence Force
      Academy.

      * Denham, T.P. 2008. Traditional forms of plant exploitation in Australia and
      New Guinea: the search for common ground. Vegetation History and
      Archaeobotany 17: 245-8.
      -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_TraditionalForms.pdf
      -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/projects/wgp/TDenham_Project.html

      * Gammage, Bill (2005), " '...far more happier than we Europeans': Aborigines
      and farmers" (PDF), London Papers in Australian Studies (formerly Working Papers
      in Australian Studies) (London: Menzies Centre for Australian Studies. King's
      College. Each year the Centre publishes London Papers in Australian Studies .
      These are representative of some of the most recent and exciting intellectual
      work in Australian Studies.) (12): 1–27, ISSN 1746-1774, retrieved 2010-11-23
      -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/content/1/c6/01/27/52/LPAS12BillGammage1.pdf
      -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/schools/humanities/depts/menzies/research/pubs/lp

      * Gammage, Bill 1986. Narrandera Shire Narrandera: Bill Gammage for the
      Narrandera Shire Council.

      * Denham, T., Donohue, M., & Booth, S. Horticultural experimentation in northern
      Australia reconsidered. Antiquity No. 83
      -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_etal_2009_Antiquity.pdf

      * Gerritsen, R (2008). Australia and the origins of agricultureArchaeopress -
      British Archaeological Reports Ltd

      * Denham, T.P. and S. Mooney (2008). Human-environment interactions in Australia
      and New Guinea during the Holocene. The Holocene 18(3): 373-9.

      * Gott, Beth (1983) Murnong–Microseris scapigera: a study of a staple food of
      Victorian Aborigines - Australian Aboriginal Studies

      * Gott, Beth (1992) Koorie Plants, Koorie People: Traditional Aboriginal Food,
      Fibre and Healing Plants of Victoria - Koorie Heritage Trust, Victoria,
      Australia.

      * Gott, Beth (2005) Aboriginal fire management in south‐eastern Australia: aims
      and frequency - Journal of Biogeography, Wiley

      * Gammage, Bill (2008) Plain facts: Tasmania under aboriginal management -
      Landscape Research - Routledge
      -> http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Gammagetasaborigsfires.pdf

      * Gerritsen, R (2010). 'Evidence for indigenous Australian
      agriculture',Australasian Science, vol. 31, no. 6, pp. 35-37.
      -> http://www.australasianscience.com.au/article/issue-july-august-2010/evidence-indigenous-australian-agriculture.html


      * Denham, T.P. 2007. Early agriculture: recent conceptual and methodological
      developments. In T.P. Denham and P. White, eds, The emergence of agriculture: a
      global view, pp. 1-25. London: Routledge.

      * Denham, T.P. and J.P. White (eds.) (2007). The emergence of agriculture: a
      global view One World Archaeology Reader, London: Routledge.

      *Denham, T.P. J. Atchison, J. Austin, S. Bestel, D. Bowdery, A. Crowther, N.
      Dolby, A. Fairbairn, J. Field, A. Kennedy, C. Lentfer, C. Matheson, S. Nugent,
      J. Parr, M. Prebble, G. Robertson, J. Specht, R. Torrence, H. Barton, R.
      Fullagar, S. Haberle, M. Horrocks, T. Lewis and P. Matthews (2009).
      Archaeobotany in Australia and New Guinea: practice, potential and
      prospects. Australian Archaeology (accepted December 2008).
      -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/denham_etal_2009.pdf

      * Denham, T.P., R. Fullagar and L. Head In press. Plant exploitation on Sahul:
      from colonisation to the emergence of regional specialisation during the
      Holocene. Quaternary International (accepted March 2008).

      * Gott, Beth (2008) Indigenous use of plants in south-eastern
      Australia - Telopea - rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au


      Many more contemporary papers by Gott, Beth; Bill Gammage; Chase; Hynes & Chase;
      etc..
      Much more literature by early European Australians.


      BTW:
      * Beth Gott is an elder ethno-botanist from Monash University, Melbourne; was my
      University lecturer there in 1990; and i continue to correspond with at times.
      * Tim Denham is a scholar from Monash University, Melbourne
      * Rupert Gerritsen is a self-funded scholar from here in Canberra attached to
      the National Library of Australia, A Petherick reader; who i've met &
      corresponded with a few times about all of this subject material


      -----------------------

      Do not get out your apparently triumphalist–Euro-centric–knives (please),
      whether you know you are doing so or not,
      to stab–in–the–back people in this sub–continent, who get called Aborigines.
      It amazes me how you who obviously–evidently are way out of your depth of
      detailed knowledge of this subject shoot your mouth of with unreferenced and
      often unbalanced opinions, while the most scholarly people i personally know of
      this subject, actively choose to say very circumspect statements about these
      ancient, or 200 years ago history, or today continuing but severely dispossed,
      subjects.
      Not really reading, listening, to what i've written about this subject here for
      up to 8 years and longer elsewhere, and to the extensively documented history of
      this subject; I'm really tired of that, of you–kind–of–Ozzies, Norm & Peter, and
      previously Adam & so on, not really reading, listening and so on to so many
      saying this for so many years, on this subject—thousands of years of sustainable
      nature farming in this continent, in the sense of the definition of late Mr.
      Fukuoka Masanobu sensei.

      It's great you've been to travelling in India. I want to hear a lot more stories
      about that please.
      But it is not necessary for this subject, learning this subject, to travel to
      India.
      The longest continuing nature farming traditions (in the sense of late Mr.
      Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's definition by his principles) in our Earth, and still
      continuing in some places in NSW, Australia, not so far from you Norm, like for
      example with the Scuthorpe's family in N.W. NSW.
      It's right before your eyes in the native Oz flora (& fauna) only waiting for
      you to see and hear and smell and touch and 'aware' it AND EAT it!

      Book Reference:

      "Bush foods of New South Wales"

      by Kathy Stewart & Bob Percival
      (Royal Botanic Gardens, Sydney 1997).

      -29 pages - many great photos - many great drawings-

      -> http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/85542/Bushfoodsbook.pdf


      Freeeeee!!! - I've paid money to buy many copies of it for friends over the
      years.


      An analogy reference:
      "ON A GREEN MOUNTAIN - With Masanobu Fukuoka Sensei of Natural Farming
      -Copyright (c) 1995 Jim Bones"
      -> http://web.archive.org/web/20060413224615/www.seedballs.com/gmmfpa.html


      ________________________________


      In order now is, from
      Historian, Teacher, Award winning writer of numerous book, short stories, poems
      et. al., Editor, etc,
      a truthful writing quote, for which plenty of scholarly and historical
      documentation occurs in the public record and often by famous historical figures
      like Mitchell, Sturt, etc.:
      -> http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5858
      "
      Australians in denial ...
      By Bruce Pascoe - posted Monday, 21 May 2007

      Australia is a baby. An innocent baby, gurgling with good humour and wonder.
      We've pulled the paper bag over our head and believe no-one can see us.

      There we are, in the middle of the floor with a bag over our head. We refuse to
      look back at our past and hope that with no effort on our part the future will
      look after itself.

      We live in a country with an incredible history but pretend it began in 1788.
      The ancient past was not written so therefore it doesn't exist. The Aborigines
      are primitive hunter gatherers who are migrants to the country just like us, so
      really they had no more right to the land than we did. And we're better at it.


      Oh, baby, pull off the bag, examine your land.

      It is on the public record that Aboriginal people were not feckless and innocent
      nomads but constructed complex housing; harvested grain, yams, eels, fish and
      other produce with sophisticated feats of engineering; and created the first and
      most enduring art, music and language in the world.

      The social organisation looks amazingly like the first democracy, the first
      modern state where art and dance were devoted more time than the procurement of
      food.

      We live in an incredible place but refuse to believe its history.

      The eel aquaculture of the Western District of Victoria covers thousands of
      hectares and involves hundreds of kilometres of stone walls, weirs and tunnels
      burrowed through solid rock. The houses for these fishermen were set out in
      large villages and some of them could accommodate 20 or more people. They are
      like small town halls.

      Grain was harvested in Queensland and from other grasslands: the fields of over
      1,000 acres were carefully managed to maintain productivity. Settlers found this
      grain stored in stone silos and intricately sewn, vermin proof skin bags. Often
      the stored grain weighed over one tonne.

      This is all on the public record in the first hand reports of Europeans. So why
      do we maintain the myth of a crude civilisation meandering hopelessly across the
      continent? Because we have to? Because to admit anything else defies our
      perception of ownership and legitimacy, our own perception of how we took the
      land?

      We need to understand that there was a war in this country and the Indigenes
      lost it but not before conducting battles which forced the Europeans back on
      many fronts in the campaign. Aboriginal people did not just go away, disappear,
      die out from exotic diseases - they were defeated in war. That war is on the
      public record. The word “war” was used by our first governors and magistrates:
      it is there for any Australian to read.

      Of course it was unlike any other war we are familiar with because Aboriginal
      people had lived within nation boundaries which remained the same over
      thousands, probably tens of thousands, of years - their languages tell us this
      because of the reference to ancient climatic and geological events. This country
      is unique but we can't bring ourselves to admit it because we have to believe
      the Indigenes walked away from it, left the field in awe of the marvellous
      European.

      I implore young Australians to undertake a scrutiny of the available material
      and begin a negotiation with Aboriginal Australia, not about money but about our
      shared history, our shared future and in celebration of this land we love, the
      land we toast with cups of tea and Indigenous wine and beer

      We love our country but have pulled the bag over our head pretending the world
      can't see how we arrived

      Young Australians please read your history, don't believe your elders' version
      of events, most have got their head in a bag. You are young, intelligent,
      hopeful, you have the rest of your lives ahead of you. Enjoy it, learn that you
      live in a fabulous place where a civilisation developed which may yet teach us
      crucial lessons about sustainability and civilised behaviour.

      To understand our history is not an act of grand generosity but a bloody-minded
      necessity. The alternative is to live with a bag over your head ... and baby,
      it's dark in there.
      "


      Enough evidence said???


      Biggest best wishes,

      Jason
      SE Oz.


      ________________________________
      From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:14:57
      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts


      Dear Friends:
      I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in
      India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus &
      Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India &
      recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the
      end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very
      impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems
      we discuss here.
      Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow
      ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt &
      read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I
      have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm
      18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their
      abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown,
      they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract
      nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a
      place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first
      started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted
      then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this
      area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they
      extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants,
      then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of
      their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves
      retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The
      smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or
      think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most
      Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular
      fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has
      made them the dominant species.
      Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost
      annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less
      flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew
      more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because
      mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire
      prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as
      mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation
      in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one
      year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member
      of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn
      at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest
      species were scorched & died.
      Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of
      us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying
      that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the
      Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to
      manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is
      said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time
      into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that
      deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved
      into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people
      inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has
      had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic
      if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose
      back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with
      us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are
      supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we
      consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for
      what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of
      natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
      When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous
      paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said
      as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to
      solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury
      ourselves deeper & deeper.
      The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of
      Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of
      these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me
      that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future
      in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar
      to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more
      than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to
      that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases
      these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach
      maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

      Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical
      areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well
      in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India,
      as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large
      bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might
      be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the
      early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them
      before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in
      the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type
      legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see
      the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut &
      have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance
      to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be
      removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted
      these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their
      management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other
      plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to
      Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a
      shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as
      mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jason Stewart
      Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei only talks–writes about re–Greening (in the sense of verdure) the world s man-made deserts – he spells this out in
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei only talks–writes about re–Greening (in the
        sense of verdure) the world's man-made deserts – he spells this out in numerous
        documents – simplistically the areas that humans have desertified, not the
        natural deserts originating from nature-Great-Spirit-God-humans.
        Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei does not throw out out pre-existing knowledge,
        explicitly he explains that that is necessary to fix the problems created by
        previous knowledge. It's better called by prexifing with the Japanese word: Mu
        knowledge – meaning no knowledge (against or outside of nature) – meaning all
        the credit for knowledge goes to nature and does not go to us as individuals –
        no egocentric knowledge. In alignment with the terms like no-action (mu i)
        (against nature) and no weeding by cultivation or herbicides (against nature),
        etc. .

        Are you going to 'grow' a nature farm in the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu
        sensei in Antarctica?
        No! (that's of course absurd).
        Antarctica is, known as, the driest continent, on our Earth (essentially not
        permanently inhabitated in the self-sustaining sense of the definition of
        inhabited – Oz the driest inhabited continent)
        Antarctica, frozen deserts, of course are natural! (since tens of millions of
        years ago)

        Australia, central Australia's, deserts, originate in nature, existing in
        plentiful evidence since many millions of years ago, and many millions of years
        before humans ever existed.
        They are in constant flux (change) as is all nature, all the time. Expansion,
        contraction, different plant and animal species coming and going over millions
        of years, with many different shapes and sizes—forms—Protean.
        Humbly, the first Australians in much-evidence tamed the
        massive–continental–scale wild fires (lightning ignitions) by vastly reducing
        the scale, intensity and damage of those massive–continental–scale wild fires to
        human–scale patch burning the grassy vegetation types, and parts, not all, of
        the the shrubby–heathy vegetation types at the time European people, my
        ancestors, were invading with their colony (1770–88–).

        Reference:
        Bowman, David "Bushfires: A Darwinian Perspective"
        in Geoffrey Cary, David Lindenmayer, Stephen Dovers (2003) Australia burning:
        fire ecology, policy and management issues
        CSIRO Publishing. 280 pp.

        The Atacama desert, Chile is another natural desert from natural atmosphere &
        ocean current circulations and rainshadow behind mountains.
        Wikipedia quote:
        "
        The Atacama Desert is a virtually rainless plateau in South America, covering a
        600-mile (1,000 km) strip of land on the Pacific coast of South America, west of
        the Andes mountains. The Atacama desert is, according to NASA,National
        Geographic and many other publications, the driest desert in the
        world,[1][2][3] due to the rain shadow on theleeward side of the Chilean Coast
        Range, as well as a coastal inversion layer created by the cold
        offshore Humboldt Current.[4] The Atacama occupies 40,600 square miles (105,000
        km2)[5] in northern Chile, composed mostly of saltbasins (salares), sand,
        and felsic lava flows towards the Andes.
        "

        ________________________________
        From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:14:57
        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts


        Dear Friends:
        I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in
        India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus &
        Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India &
        recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the
        end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very
        impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems
        we discuss here.
        Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow
        ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt &
        read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I
        have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm
        18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their
        abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown,
        they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract
        nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a
        place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first
        started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted
        then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this
        area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they
        extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants,
        then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of
        their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves
        retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The
        smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or
        think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most
        Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular
        fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has
        made them the dominant species.
        Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost
        annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less
        flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew
        more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because
        mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire
        prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as
        mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation
        in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one
        year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member
        of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn
        at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest
        species were scorched & died.
        Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of
        us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying
        that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the
        Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to
        manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is
        said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time
        into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that
        deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved
        into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people
        inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has
        had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic
        if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose
        back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with
        us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are
        supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we
        consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for
        what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of
        natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
        When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous
        paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said
        as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to
        solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury
        ourselves deeper & deeper.
        The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of
        Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of
        these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me
        that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future
        in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar
        to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more
        than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to
        that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases
        these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach
        maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

        Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical
        areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well
        in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India,
        as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large
        bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might
        be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the
        early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them
        before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in
        the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type
        legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see
        the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut &
        have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance
        to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be
        removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted
        these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their
        management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other
        plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to
        Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a
        shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as
        mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Anant Joglekar
        Hi Thank you very much for your email. My father ( Anant Joglekar ) is out of station till 10 December, 2010 He shall get back to you after coming back. Warm
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 5, 2010
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          Hi

          Thank you very much for your email.

          My father ( Anant Joglekar ) is out of station till 10 December, 2010 He shall
          get back to you after coming back.

          Warm Regards

          Shubhada Joglekar




          Sent with Best Compliments -
          Call me at-
          +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
          Post me at-
          Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
          Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

          Meet me at-
          yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

          BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC





          ________________________________
          From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: Anant Joglekar <apjoglekar@...>
          Sent: Fri, 3 December, 2010 10:58:47 AM
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica


          Dear Anant Joglekar,

          Writing this from the land of the native Eucalypts (about 600 species native)
          Australia, :) , i write:
          Please list the names of any plants growing around the area there, any names you

          have including Indian local common names, of any possible suitable plants such
          as grasses, shrubs, legumes and spiny plants for the live fencing.

          I have the name of Cockspur Thorn –botanical name:
          "_Maclura_cochinchinensis_ (Lour.) Corner" of India and of Australia and China.
          A very spiny woody big spreading shrub &/or vine, with edible ripe orange
          fruits. It naturally grows in forests (dry & wet rainforests, & wet Eucalypt
          forests) in warm temperate and subtropical south and eastern Australia (NSW &
          QLD).

          -> http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Cockspur%20Thorn.htmlMore photos

          in Australia:

          ->
          http://plantnet.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/NSWfl.pl?page=nswfl&lvl=sp&name=Maclura~cochinchinensis->
          http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/index.php?href=botanical&dir=botanical_pages&subpage=view&ext=php&array_place=13&item_id=533#image_533
          3

          (
          http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/botanical_images/Maclura%20cochinchinensis%209.jpg
          )

          -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackdiamondimages/4205370259/in/photostream/
          -> http://toowoombaplants2008.blogspot.com/2008/02/cockspur-thorn.html

          ----------------------------------------------------------

          Any leguminous nitrogen fixing species please list, we all may each have some
          pieces of encouraging information about a list of your local species, if you
          need to please ask local people and local farmers the local plant species.

          Eucalypts (from Australia) can produce unusual environments underneath their
          trees, from the leaf oils, and from the root symbiotic relationships, root
          chemicals and environments made by the roots. Unusual elsewhere in the world.
          Here in Australia there are many endemic species of plants long adapted growing
          in these Eucalypt environments, above-ground and in the root zone (adapted
          meaning revolved sensu Mr. Fukuoka instead of evolved sensu science, long
          meaning over millions of years).

          Best wishes to all,
          Jase
          (Jason Stewart)
          south-eastern Australia

          ________________________________
          From: Anant Joglekar <apjoglekar@...>
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
          Sent: Friday, December 3, 2010 12:45:18
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

          Hi friends !

          Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135


          Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My
          lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor
          irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within
          Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
          Eucalyptus.

          I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will
          control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and


          stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some
          live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

          I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

          Thanks and regards.

          Anant Joglekar
          919423089706

          Sent with Best Compliments -
          Call me at-
          +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
          Post me at-
          Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
          Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

          Meet me at-
          yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

          BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

          ________________________________
          From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

          Hi Vishu,

          I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like


          the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in
          the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look
          like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go


          by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of


          25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so
          many years.

          Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
          http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you


          need any help I can provide that.

          Regards,
          Nandan

          --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...> wrote:

          From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...>
          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

          Dear All,

          Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

          it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

          mulch.

          I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

          coffee plantation.

          --

          Vishu

          http://titli.bikingvikings.com

          The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nandan Palaparambil
          Hi Norm, A couple of people (Rajuji, Kumaraswamy +??) have been reporting that green gram (moong dal) can be used instead of white clover. Also there has been
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 7, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Norm,

            A couple of people (Rajuji, Kumaraswamy +??) have been reporting that green gram (moong dal) can be used instead of white clover. Also there has been a suggestion that cow pea also can be used..But I think this research has to be done in more fields and a working system like Fukuoka's style of paddy has to come up.

            Please read Fukuoka san's statement on white clover in the following interview..

            http://thepines.blogspot.com/2009/07/pines-i-notice-that-youre-drawing.html -

            "Hmmm... my climate is totally unlike his, so rather than use white
            clover, I'll try this other ground cover." That line of reasoning could
            well take you off the track and lead you down a lot of blind alleys!
            Clover is necessary to keep the weeds back and replenish the soil.



            Regards,
            Nandan

            --- On Sun, 12/5/10, greenie6666 <normbeee@...> wrote:

            From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 4:44 AM







             









            Dear Friends:

            I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus & Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India & recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems we discuss here.

            Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt & read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm 18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown, they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they extracted all available
            moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants, then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has made them the dominant species.

            Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest species were scorched & died.

            Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose back into the earth, which
            is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.

            When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury ourselves deeper & deeper.

            The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.



            Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India, as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut & have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance to get away they
            would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].

























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