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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts

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  • Jason Stewart
    Dear Nandan, and all, This is my natural heartfelt work all my life, my part of the world (too), Australia, especially Melbourne, far-east gippsland farming
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
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      Dear Nandan, and all,

      This is my natural heartfelt work all my life, my part of the world (too),
      Australia, especially Melbourne, far-east gippsland farming rural areas,
      Victoria, Sydney, rural areas, NSW, ACT (Canberra & rural arras) and my
      professional–natural–work for all and sundry (local state & federal gov't's,
      voluntarily for communities including Aborigines' communities, companies,
      farmers, landcare, bushcare, Royal Melb. Golf Club, etc.).
      The authority & credibility, i have (without ego as best as i can), to say that
      that is complete nonsense and must not get taken any further PLEASE! -quote:
      "Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80%
      (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia

      becomes more and more arid..."

      It's an extreme misrepresentation of ancient Australian geology, palaeobotany,
      palynology and so on, poorly derived by Peter Andrews that i've read of his
      writing, —evidently i understand this ancient Australian geology, palaeobotany,
      palynology better than Peter Andrews does—i suppose because i have, in
      privileges, been trained in it properly in University—
      –deriving from taken completely out of context, 65 million (65,000,000) and more
      years ago—Gondwanaland at the south pole— when Dinosaurs roamed the Earth and
      most Angiosperm plants hadn't revolved yet (sensu late Mr.
      Fukuoka<=evolved)—when the Himalaya's, according to geology, didnt exist yet,
      and when India was not yet India but rather an subcontinent-sized island, north
      of Antarctica, moving centimetres north per year towards continental Asia or
      even, still part of the supercontinent Gondwanaland.
      At this natural time plants, of what is now Australia, NZ, south America &
      India, didn't include Eucalypts at all because they hadn't revolved yet (sensu
      late Mr. Fukuoka<=evolved) at all.
      The then ancestor species of all Eucalypts still grow today and are still found
      today in the Wet Tropical Rainforests of far north Queenland, Australia & PNG –
      most notably _Stockwellia_quadrifida_ (named after forester Mr. Stockwell).
      Hence at that time 65,000,000 or more years ago the climate of the whole of our
      Earth was very different, the continents (land masses) were not as they are
      today, at all, and the plants and animals were not at all as they are today
      (except for a very few botanically famous persisting species today like
      Stockwellia, Wollemia, Araucaria, Agathis, Eucalyptopsis, few Protea-ancestors,
      few Casuarina-ancestors, etc.)
      As Australia (& India & NZ islands) broke into island–continents off from
      Gondwanaland they very slowly moved northwards at varying rates of a few
      centimetres per year. Multiply for example 5 cm by 65,000,000 years and you have
      3250 km! As they moved towards the equator from the region of the south pole and
      the Earth's climate changed through many revolutions, all over 65,000,000 years,
      India came to smash into Asia pushing up the tallest mountain range in our
      Earth, the Himalayas, creating the new headwaters of the sacred Ganges and many
      more rivers. Australia moved slowly towards south-east Asia through the
      Indian-Pacific ocean, into middle latitudes where the world over and in whatever
      Earth climate they are known as relatively less rain-bearing latitudes from the
      Earth-atmospheric circulation nature; Hence Australia is now known as "the
      driest inhabited continent on Earth", about three-quarters by area-measurement
      has an arid climate, naturally, since millions of years ago, which did lead to
      the revolution (sensu late Mr. Fukuoka<=evolution) of Eucalypts and all the
      non-rainforest floras around Australia, making up perhaps 20,000 species &
      varieties of plants, which hadn't revolved=evolved as species yet at that time.
      Hence also, as some human *cultures* and not others, have destroyed vegetation
      en masse around our Earth over the last 13,000 years –eg.
      Mediterranean-surrounding-cultures, some African-cultures–, these middle
      latitudes in the northern and southern hemisphere's are the most vulnerable and
      least quickly recovering from this vegetation destruction, so desert persists
      longer, taking the longest to recover in these regions. Where in other regions
      the moisture available from elsewhere like off oceans recovers the vegetation
      more quickly.

      You don't have to believe any of this science-based palaeo-history, but whatever
      you believe about it, do not please believe interpretations of this science that
      hack into incoherence (& in places racialist against Aborigines) by Peter
      Andrews. The real sources the science, behind his science confusion, are there
      in the original science writing for all to freely read.

      etcetera
      etcetera

      /End of Gondwanaland history basics rushed-lesson.

      Linda,
      evidently you're way out of your depth on this subject, as evidently is Peter
      Andrews, meanwhile as i'm, simply out of my depth, but can at least, roughly
      relay the correct interpretation of many other scientists work, enough to
      correct grossly unbalanced misinformation; to put this group back onto its topic
      of healing our Earth rather than destroying it in the name of discriminating
      falsely against Eucalypts. Eucalypts are natures lovely, in heart & practise,
      trees & shrubs here in Oz in their more than 600 varieties.
      Please read (available from the Libraries) the "Flora of Victoria [Australia]"
      volume 1: Introductory volume with a Mr. Fukuoka slant on its science – and take
      none of this rubbish advice part of his writing from Peter Andrews.
      Please stop confusing people with fourth-hand poorly & emotively interpreted
      nonsense.


      Best wishes to all,

      Jason Stewart


      ________________________________
      From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, December 4, 2010 3:31:16
      Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts


      Linda,

      Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they
      are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
      becomes more and more arid...

      Is Eucalypts spreading by its own or people are planting it? Does goverment do
      anything about spreading Eucalypts and acacias? Just eager how things work in
      your part of world.

      Regards,
      Nandan

      --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...> wrote:

      From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>
      Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 10:10 AM



      Hi Anant,

      I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?

      I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the
      soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their
      root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience
      because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much
      compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at
      all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above –
      impossible!

      Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80%
      (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more
      and more arid...

      Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!

      For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or
      hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out
      the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you
      have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I
      wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from
      the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and
      decompose... it’s all in the mind!

      Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get
      perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like
      honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the
      bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above
      them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get
      food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may
      smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the
      trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!

      Good luck, Linda

      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar

      Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM

      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

      Cc: Nandan Palaparambil

      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

      Hi friends !

      Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135


      Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

      lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

      irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

      Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

      Eucalyptus.

      I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

      control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and


      stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

      live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

      I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

      Thanks and regards.

      Anant Joglekar

      919423089706

      Sent with Best Compliments -

      Call me at-

      +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

      Post me at-

      Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

      Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

      Meet me at-

      yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

      BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

      ________________________________

      From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...
      <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

      Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

      Hi Vishu,

      I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like


      the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

      the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

      like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go


      by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of


      25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

      many years.

      Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

      http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you


      need any help I can provide that.

      Regards,

      Nandan

      --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...
      <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

      From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

      Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

      Dear All,

      Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

      it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

      mulch.

      I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

      coffee plantation.

      --

      Vishu

      http://titli.bikingvikings.com

      The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Linda Shewan
      Hi Nandan, Acacias regenerate from fire, (when planting seed you pour boiling water over the seeds to create the same stimulation for germination), while most
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Nandan,



        Acacias regenerate from fire, (when planting seed you pour boiling water over the seeds to create the same stimulation for germination), while most other plants are simply killed by fire. So the fires that ravage the Australian landscape every summer are probably the biggest cause. Also the traditional aboriginal farming techniques of burning tracts of bushland and then allowing them to regrow actually stimulates the germination of these species above all others – this is not racist, just reality – although not all the land was burnt in this way, over the 40000 years of aboriginal management it would obviously have had some impact.



        Eucalypts spread both by fire regeneration (the fire creates a seed bed where they are then able to colonise areas that were previously covered by grasses etc) and by major plantings both in plantations and as native regeneration projects. I have baby eucalypts come up every year in my back yard from seeds falling into either disturbed soil or tubs of potting mix. They don’t seem to germinate so easily in areas already occupied by grass or other vegetation that isn’t burnt off or bare for any other reason.



        Here is an interesting report on eucalypts in California http://library.csustan.edu/bsantos/section3.htm - covers both for and against and gives good forestry practices if you choose to use them.

        And another that really just condemns them... http://www.audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite0201.html



        There are definitely pros and cons – and I absolutely love the eucalypts here, but I don’t feel the need to grow masses more of them as they are already very well represented. However in any native planting project, I definitely include them – I just try and add a lot of other flora for diversity as well.



        Kind Regards, Linda







        From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nandan Palaparambil
        Sent: Saturday, 4 December 2010 3:31 AM
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts





        Linda,

        Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they
        are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
        becomes more and more arid...

        Is Eucalypts spreading by its own or people are planting it? Does goverment do anything about spreading Eucalypts and acacias? Just eager how things work in your part of world.

        Regards,
        Nandan

        --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@... <mailto:linda_shewan%40yahoo.com.au> > wrote:

        From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@... <mailto:linda_shewan%40yahoo.com.au> >
        Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 10:10 AM



        Hi Anant,

        I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?

        I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above – impossible!

        Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more and more arid...

        Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!

        For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!

        Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!

        Good luck, Linda

        From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar

        Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM

        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

        Cc: Nandan Palaparambil

        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

        Hi friends !

        Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135

        Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

        lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

        irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

        Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

        Eucalyptus.

        I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

        control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and

        stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

        live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

        I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

        Thanks and regards.

        Anant Joglekar

        919423089706

        Sent with Best Compliments -

        Call me at-

        +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

        Post me at-

        Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

        Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

        Meet me at-

        yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

        BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

        ________________________________

        From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@... <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

        Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

        Hi Vishu,

        I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like

        the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

        the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

        like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go

        by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of

        25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

        many years.

        Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

        http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you

        need any help I can provide that.

        Regards,

        Nandan

        --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

        From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

        Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

        Dear All,

        Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

        it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

        mulch.

        I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

        coffee plantation.

        --

        Vishu

        http://titli.bikingvikings.com

        The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • greenie6666
        Dear Friends: I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
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          Dear Friends:
          I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus & Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India & recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems we discuss here.
          Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt & read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm 18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown, they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants, then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has made them the dominant species.
          Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest species were scorched & died.
          Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
          When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury ourselves deeper & deeper.
          The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

          Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India, as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut & have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].
        • Jason Stewart
          Dear all, and Norm, In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei s natural people , Norm you are depressingly–falsely tarring original natural
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear all, and Norm,

            In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural people", Norm you
            are depressingly–falsely 'tarring' original "natural people" with the tar-brush
            of obviously–the–extreme–of–world–history examples of, my ancestors, greedy,
            land–grabbing–stealing, destructive (to nature and self=all nature), invading,
            grossly unsustainable, child–enslaving & African–enslaving–trading, historical
            Western European & Middle Eastern peoples (as i wrote as the extreme example
            peoples – often distinct as people speaking languages of the Indo-European
            language family and the inventors of the only *extremely–expansionary* forms of
            unsustainable agriculture)

            One key scholarly reference example:
            Harris, D. (2002). The expansion capacity of early agricultural systems: a
            comparative perspective on the spread of agriculture.In P. Bellwood and C.
            Renfrew eds,Examining the Farming/Language Dispersal Hypothesis, pp. 31–40.
            Cambridge: McDonald Institute for Archaeological
            Research.

            -----------------------

            In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural faming" "natural
            people", Norm you are passing on lies by your writing "the Aborigines didn't
            have any form of agriculture".


            Scholarly References (i have and have read all these papers, and can supply them
            if really needed):
            *
            Convincing Ground: Learning to Fall in love with your country

            ________________________________

            Bruce PASCOE
            Availability: Print
            Electronic Book Format: www.ebooks.com
            April 2007, pb, 234x153mm, 304pp, b/w illus
            RRP $39.95 incl. GST
            ISBN 9780855755492
            | Contents | Sample Chapter | Index | Reviews |





























            -> http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/asp/aspbooks/convground.html


            * Gammage, Bill 2003. Australia Under Aboriginal Management, 15th Barry Andrews
            Memorial Lecture,
            2002, Canberra: University College, University of NSW, Australian Defence Force
            Academy.

            * Denham, T.P. 2008. Traditional forms of plant exploitation in Australia and
            New Guinea: the search for common ground. Vegetation History and
            Archaeobotany 17: 245-8.
            -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_TraditionalForms.pdf
            -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/projects/wgp/TDenham_Project.html

            * Gammage, Bill (2005), " '...far more happier than we Europeans': Aborigines
            and farmers" (PDF), London Papers in Australian Studies (formerly Working Papers
            in Australian Studies) (London: Menzies Centre for Australian Studies. King's
            College. Each year the Centre publishes London Papers in Australian Studies .
            These are representative of some of the most recent and exciting intellectual
            work in Australian Studies.) (12): 1–27, ISSN 1746-1774, retrieved 2010-11-23
            -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/content/1/c6/01/27/52/LPAS12BillGammage1.pdf
            -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/schools/humanities/depts/menzies/research/pubs/lp

            * Gammage, Bill 1986. Narrandera Shire Narrandera: Bill Gammage for the
            Narrandera Shire Council.

            * Denham, T., Donohue, M., & Booth, S. Horticultural experimentation in northern
            Australia reconsidered. Antiquity No. 83
            -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_etal_2009_Antiquity.pdf

            * Gerritsen, R (2008). Australia and the origins of agricultureArchaeopress -
            British Archaeological Reports Ltd

            * Denham, T.P. and S. Mooney (2008). Human-environment interactions in Australia
            and New Guinea during the Holocene. The Holocene 18(3): 373-9.

            * Gott, Beth (1983) Murnong–Microseris scapigera: a study of a staple food of
            Victorian Aborigines - Australian Aboriginal Studies

            * Gott, Beth (1992) Koorie Plants, Koorie People: Traditional Aboriginal Food,
            Fibre and Healing Plants of Victoria - Koorie Heritage Trust, Victoria,
            Australia.

            * Gott, Beth (2005) Aboriginal fire management in south‐eastern Australia: aims
            and frequency - Journal of Biogeography, Wiley

            * Gammage, Bill (2008) Plain facts: Tasmania under aboriginal management -
            Landscape Research - Routledge
            -> http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Gammagetasaborigsfires.pdf

            * Gerritsen, R (2010). 'Evidence for indigenous Australian
            agriculture',Australasian Science, vol. 31, no. 6, pp. 35-37.
            -> http://www.australasianscience.com.au/article/issue-july-august-2010/evidence-indigenous-australian-agriculture.html


            * Denham, T.P. 2007. Early agriculture: recent conceptual and methodological
            developments. In T.P. Denham and P. White, eds, The emergence of agriculture: a
            global view, pp. 1-25. London: Routledge.

            * Denham, T.P. and J.P. White (eds.) (2007). The emergence of agriculture: a
            global view One World Archaeology Reader, London: Routledge.

            *Denham, T.P. J. Atchison, J. Austin, S. Bestel, D. Bowdery, A. Crowther, N.
            Dolby, A. Fairbairn, J. Field, A. Kennedy, C. Lentfer, C. Matheson, S. Nugent,
            J. Parr, M. Prebble, G. Robertson, J. Specht, R. Torrence, H. Barton, R.
            Fullagar, S. Haberle, M. Horrocks, T. Lewis and P. Matthews (2009).
            Archaeobotany in Australia and New Guinea: practice, potential and
            prospects. Australian Archaeology (accepted December 2008).
            -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/denham_etal_2009.pdf

            * Denham, T.P., R. Fullagar and L. Head In press. Plant exploitation on Sahul:
            from colonisation to the emergence of regional specialisation during the
            Holocene. Quaternary International (accepted March 2008).

            * Gott, Beth (2008) Indigenous use of plants in south-eastern
            Australia - Telopea - rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au


            Many more contemporary papers by Gott, Beth; Bill Gammage; Chase; Hynes & Chase;
            etc..
            Much more literature by early European Australians.


            BTW:
            * Beth Gott is an elder ethno-botanist from Monash University, Melbourne; was my
            University lecturer there in 1990; and i continue to correspond with at times.
            * Tim Denham is a scholar from Monash University, Melbourne
            * Rupert Gerritsen is a self-funded scholar from here in Canberra attached to
            the National Library of Australia, A Petherick reader; who i've met &
            corresponded with a few times about all of this subject material


            -----------------------

            Do not get out your apparently triumphalist–Euro-centric–knives (please),
            whether you know you are doing so or not,
            to stab–in–the–back people in this sub–continent, who get called Aborigines.
            It amazes me how you who obviously–evidently are way out of your depth of
            detailed knowledge of this subject shoot your mouth of with unreferenced and
            often unbalanced opinions, while the most scholarly people i personally know of
            this subject, actively choose to say very circumspect statements about these
            ancient, or 200 years ago history, or today continuing but severely dispossed,
            subjects.
            Not really reading, listening, to what i've written about this subject here for
            up to 8 years and longer elsewhere, and to the extensively documented history of
            this subject; I'm really tired of that, of you–kind–of–Ozzies, Norm & Peter, and
            previously Adam & so on, not really reading, listening and so on to so many
            saying this for so many years, on this subject—thousands of years of sustainable
            nature farming in this continent, in the sense of the definition of late Mr.
            Fukuoka Masanobu sensei.

            It's great you've been to travelling in India. I want to hear a lot more stories
            about that please.
            But it is not necessary for this subject, learning this subject, to travel to
            India.
            The longest continuing nature farming traditions (in the sense of late Mr.
            Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's definition by his principles) in our Earth, and still
            continuing in some places in NSW, Australia, not so far from you Norm, like for
            example with the Scuthorpe's family in N.W. NSW.
            It's right before your eyes in the native Oz flora (& fauna) only waiting for
            you to see and hear and smell and touch and 'aware' it AND EAT it!

            Book Reference:

            "Bush foods of New South Wales"

            by Kathy Stewart & Bob Percival
            (Royal Botanic Gardens, Sydney 1997).

            -29 pages - many great photos - many great drawings-

            -> http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/85542/Bushfoodsbook.pdf


            Freeeeee!!! - I've paid money to buy many copies of it for friends over the
            years.


            An analogy reference:
            "ON A GREEN MOUNTAIN - With Masanobu Fukuoka Sensei of Natural Farming
            -Copyright (c) 1995 Jim Bones"
            -> http://web.archive.org/web/20060413224615/www.seedballs.com/gmmfpa.html


            ________________________________


            In order now is, from
            Historian, Teacher, Award winning writer of numerous book, short stories, poems
            et. al., Editor, etc,
            a truthful writing quote, for which plenty of scholarly and historical
            documentation occurs in the public record and often by famous historical figures
            like Mitchell, Sturt, etc.:
            -> http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5858
            "
            Australians in denial ...
            By Bruce Pascoe - posted Monday, 21 May 2007

            Australia is a baby. An innocent baby, gurgling with good humour and wonder.
            We've pulled the paper bag over our head and believe no-one can see us.

            There we are, in the middle of the floor with a bag over our head. We refuse to
            look back at our past and hope that with no effort on our part the future will
            look after itself.

            We live in a country with an incredible history but pretend it began in 1788.
            The ancient past was not written so therefore it doesn't exist. The Aborigines
            are primitive hunter gatherers who are migrants to the country just like us, so
            really they had no more right to the land than we did. And we're better at it.


            Oh, baby, pull off the bag, examine your land.

            It is on the public record that Aboriginal people were not feckless and innocent
            nomads but constructed complex housing; harvested grain, yams, eels, fish and
            other produce with sophisticated feats of engineering; and created the first and
            most enduring art, music and language in the world.

            The social organisation looks amazingly like the first democracy, the first
            modern state where art and dance were devoted more time than the procurement of
            food.

            We live in an incredible place but refuse to believe its history.

            The eel aquaculture of the Western District of Victoria covers thousands of
            hectares and involves hundreds of kilometres of stone walls, weirs and tunnels
            burrowed through solid rock. The houses for these fishermen were set out in
            large villages and some of them could accommodate 20 or more people. They are
            like small town halls.

            Grain was harvested in Queensland and from other grasslands: the fields of over
            1,000 acres were carefully managed to maintain productivity. Settlers found this
            grain stored in stone silos and intricately sewn, vermin proof skin bags. Often
            the stored grain weighed over one tonne.

            This is all on the public record in the first hand reports of Europeans. So why
            do we maintain the myth of a crude civilisation meandering hopelessly across the
            continent? Because we have to? Because to admit anything else defies our
            perception of ownership and legitimacy, our own perception of how we took the
            land?

            We need to understand that there was a war in this country and the Indigenes
            lost it but not before conducting battles which forced the Europeans back on
            many fronts in the campaign. Aboriginal people did not just go away, disappear,
            die out from exotic diseases - they were defeated in war. That war is on the
            public record. The word “war” was used by our first governors and magistrates:
            it is there for any Australian to read.

            Of course it was unlike any other war we are familiar with because Aboriginal
            people had lived within nation boundaries which remained the same over
            thousands, probably tens of thousands, of years - their languages tell us this
            because of the reference to ancient climatic and geological events. This country
            is unique but we can't bring ourselves to admit it because we have to believe
            the Indigenes walked away from it, left the field in awe of the marvellous
            European.

            I implore young Australians to undertake a scrutiny of the available material
            and begin a negotiation with Aboriginal Australia, not about money but about our
            shared history, our shared future and in celebration of this land we love, the
            land we toast with cups of tea and Indigenous wine and beer

            We love our country but have pulled the bag over our head pretending the world
            can't see how we arrived

            Young Australians please read your history, don't believe your elders' version
            of events, most have got their head in a bag. You are young, intelligent,
            hopeful, you have the rest of your lives ahead of you. Enjoy it, learn that you
            live in a fabulous place where a civilisation developed which may yet teach us
            crucial lessons about sustainability and civilised behaviour.

            To understand our history is not an act of grand generosity but a bloody-minded
            necessity. The alternative is to live with a bag over your head ... and baby,
            it's dark in there.
            "


            Enough evidence said???


            Biggest best wishes,

            Jason
            SE Oz.


            ________________________________
            From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:14:57
            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts


            Dear Friends:
            I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in
            India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus &
            Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India &
            recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the
            end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very
            impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems
            we discuss here.
            Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow
            ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt &
            read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I
            have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm
            18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their
            abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown,
            they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract
            nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a
            place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first
            started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted
            then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this
            area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they
            extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants,
            then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of
            their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves
            retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The
            smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or
            think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most
            Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular
            fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has
            made them the dominant species.
            Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost
            annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less
            flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew
            more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because
            mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire
            prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as
            mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation
            in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one
            year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member
            of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn
            at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest
            species were scorched & died.
            Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of
            us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying
            that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the
            Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to
            manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is
            said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time
            into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that
            deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved
            into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people
            inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has
            had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic
            if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose
            back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with
            us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are
            supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we
            consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for
            what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of
            natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
            When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous
            paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said
            as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to
            solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury
            ourselves deeper & deeper.
            The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of
            Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of
            these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me
            that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future
            in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar
            to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more
            than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to
            that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases
            these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach
            maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

            Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical
            areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well
            in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India,
            as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large
            bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might
            be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the
            early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them
            before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in
            the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type
            legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see
            the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut &
            have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance
            to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be
            removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted
            these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their
            management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other
            plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to
            Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a
            shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as
            mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jason Stewart
            Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei only talks–writes about re–Greening (in the sense of verdure) the world s man-made deserts – he spells this out in
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei only talks–writes about re–Greening (in the
              sense of verdure) the world's man-made deserts – he spells this out in numerous
              documents – simplistically the areas that humans have desertified, not the
              natural deserts originating from nature-Great-Spirit-God-humans.
              Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei does not throw out out pre-existing knowledge,
              explicitly he explains that that is necessary to fix the problems created by
              previous knowledge. It's better called by prexifing with the Japanese word: Mu
              knowledge – meaning no knowledge (against or outside of nature) – meaning all
              the credit for knowledge goes to nature and does not go to us as individuals –
              no egocentric knowledge. In alignment with the terms like no-action (mu i)
              (against nature) and no weeding by cultivation or herbicides (against nature),
              etc. .

              Are you going to 'grow' a nature farm in the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu
              sensei in Antarctica?
              No! (that's of course absurd).
              Antarctica is, known as, the driest continent, on our Earth (essentially not
              permanently inhabitated in the self-sustaining sense of the definition of
              inhabited – Oz the driest inhabited continent)
              Antarctica, frozen deserts, of course are natural! (since tens of millions of
              years ago)

              Australia, central Australia's, deserts, originate in nature, existing in
              plentiful evidence since many millions of years ago, and many millions of years
              before humans ever existed.
              They are in constant flux (change) as is all nature, all the time. Expansion,
              contraction, different plant and animal species coming and going over millions
              of years, with many different shapes and sizes—forms—Protean.
              Humbly, the first Australians in much-evidence tamed the
              massive–continental–scale wild fires (lightning ignitions) by vastly reducing
              the scale, intensity and damage of those massive–continental–scale wild fires to
              human–scale patch burning the grassy vegetation types, and parts, not all, of
              the the shrubby–heathy vegetation types at the time European people, my
              ancestors, were invading with their colony (1770–88–).

              Reference:
              Bowman, David "Bushfires: A Darwinian Perspective"
              in Geoffrey Cary, David Lindenmayer, Stephen Dovers (2003) Australia burning:
              fire ecology, policy and management issues
              CSIRO Publishing. 280 pp.

              The Atacama desert, Chile is another natural desert from natural atmosphere &
              ocean current circulations and rainshadow behind mountains.
              Wikipedia quote:
              "
              The Atacama Desert is a virtually rainless plateau in South America, covering a
              600-mile (1,000 km) strip of land on the Pacific coast of South America, west of
              the Andes mountains. The Atacama desert is, according to NASA,National
              Geographic and many other publications, the driest desert in the
              world,[1][2][3] due to the rain shadow on theleeward side of the Chilean Coast
              Range, as well as a coastal inversion layer created by the cold
              offshore Humboldt Current.[4] The Atacama occupies 40,600 square miles (105,000
              km2)[5] in northern Chile, composed mostly of saltbasins (salares), sand,
              and felsic lava flows towards the Andes.
              "

              ________________________________
              From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:14:57
              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts


              Dear Friends:
              I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in
              India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus &
              Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India &
              recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the
              end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very
              impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems
              we discuss here.
              Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow
              ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt &
              read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I
              have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm
              18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their
              abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown,
              they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract
              nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a
              place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first
              started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted
              then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this
              area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they
              extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants,
              then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of
              their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves
              retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The
              smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or
              think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most
              Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular
              fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has
              made them the dominant species.
              Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost
              annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less
              flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew
              more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because
              mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire
              prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as
              mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation
              in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one
              year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member
              of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn
              at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest
              species were scorched & died.
              Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of
              us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying
              that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the
              Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to
              manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is
              said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time
              into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that
              deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved
              into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people
              inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has
              had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic
              if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose
              back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with
              us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are
              supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we
              consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for
              what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of
              natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
              When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous
              paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said
              as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to
              solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury
              ourselves deeper & deeper.
              The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of
              Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of
              these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me
              that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future
              in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar
              to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more
              than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to
              that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases
              these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach
              maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

              Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical
              areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well
              in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India,
              as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large
              bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might
              be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the
              early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them
              before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in
              the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type
              legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see
              the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut &
              have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance
              to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be
              removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted
              these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their
              management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other
              plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to
              Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a
              shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as
              mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].






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            • Anant Joglekar
              Hi Thank you very much for your email. My father ( Anant Joglekar ) is out of station till 10 December, 2010 He shall get back to you after coming back. Warm
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 5, 2010
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                Hi

                Thank you very much for your email.

                My father ( Anant Joglekar ) is out of station till 10 December, 2010 He shall
                get back to you after coming back.

                Warm Regards

                Shubhada Joglekar




                Sent with Best Compliments -
                Call me at-
                +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
                Post me at-
                Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
                Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                Meet me at-
                yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC





                ________________________________
                From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: Anant Joglekar <apjoglekar@...>
                Sent: Fri, 3 December, 2010 10:58:47 AM
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica


                Dear Anant Joglekar,

                Writing this from the land of the native Eucalypts (about 600 species native)
                Australia, :) , i write:
                Please list the names of any plants growing around the area there, any names you

                have including Indian local common names, of any possible suitable plants such
                as grasses, shrubs, legumes and spiny plants for the live fencing.

                I have the name of Cockspur Thorn –botanical name:
                "_Maclura_cochinchinensis_ (Lour.) Corner" of India and of Australia and China.
                A very spiny woody big spreading shrub &/or vine, with edible ripe orange
                fruits. It naturally grows in forests (dry & wet rainforests, & wet Eucalypt
                forests) in warm temperate and subtropical south and eastern Australia (NSW &
                QLD).

                -> http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Cockspur%20Thorn.htmlMore photos

                in Australia:

                ->
                http://plantnet.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/NSWfl.pl?page=nswfl&lvl=sp&name=Maclura~cochinchinensis->
                http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/index.php?href=botanical&dir=botanical_pages&subpage=view&ext=php&array_place=13&item_id=533#image_533
                3

                (
                http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/botanical_images/Maclura%20cochinchinensis%209.jpg
                )

                -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackdiamondimages/4205370259/in/photostream/
                -> http://toowoombaplants2008.blogspot.com/2008/02/cockspur-thorn.html

                ----------------------------------------------------------

                Any leguminous nitrogen fixing species please list, we all may each have some
                pieces of encouraging information about a list of your local species, if you
                need to please ask local people and local farmers the local plant species.

                Eucalypts (from Australia) can produce unusual environments underneath their
                trees, from the leaf oils, and from the root symbiotic relationships, root
                chemicals and environments made by the roots. Unusual elsewhere in the world.
                Here in Australia there are many endemic species of plants long adapted growing
                in these Eucalypt environments, above-ground and in the root zone (adapted
                meaning revolved sensu Mr. Fukuoka instead of evolved sensu science, long
                meaning over millions of years).

                Best wishes to all,
                Jase
                (Jason Stewart)
                south-eastern Australia

                ________________________________
                From: Anant Joglekar <apjoglekar@...>
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                Sent: Friday, December 3, 2010 12:45:18
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                Hi friends !

                Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135


                Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My
                lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor
                irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within
                Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
                Eucalyptus.

                I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will
                control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and


                stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some
                live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

                I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

                Thanks and regards.

                Anant Joglekar
                919423089706

                Sent with Best Compliments -
                Call me at-
                +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
                Post me at-
                Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
                Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                Meet me at-
                yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

                ________________________________
                From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                Hi Vishu,

                I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like


                the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in
                the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look
                like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go


                by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of


                25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so
                many years.

                Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
                http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you


                need any help I can provide that.

                Regards,
                Nandan

                --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...> wrote:

                From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...>
                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

                Dear All,

                Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

                it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

                mulch.

                I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

                coffee plantation.

                --

                Vishu

                http://titli.bikingvikings.com

                The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

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              • Nandan Palaparambil
                Hi Norm, A couple of people (Rajuji, Kumaraswamy +??) have been reporting that green gram (moong dal) can be used instead of white clover. Also there has been
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 7, 2010
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                  Hi Norm,

                  A couple of people (Rajuji, Kumaraswamy +??) have been reporting that green gram (moong dal) can be used instead of white clover. Also there has been a suggestion that cow pea also can be used..But I think this research has to be done in more fields and a working system like Fukuoka's style of paddy has to come up.

                  Please read Fukuoka san's statement on white clover in the following interview..

                  http://thepines.blogspot.com/2009/07/pines-i-notice-that-youre-drawing.html -

                  "Hmmm... my climate is totally unlike his, so rather than use white
                  clover, I'll try this other ground cover." That line of reasoning could
                  well take you off the track and lead you down a lot of blind alleys!
                  Clover is necessary to keep the weeds back and replenish the soil.



                  Regards,
                  Nandan

                  --- On Sun, 12/5/10, greenie6666 <normbeee@...> wrote:

                  From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 4:44 AM







                   









                  Dear Friends:

                  I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus & Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India & recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems we discuss here.

                  Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt & read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm 18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown, they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they extracted all available
                  moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants, then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has made them the dominant species.

                  Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest species were scorched & died.

                  Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose back into the earth, which
                  is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.

                  When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury ourselves deeper & deeper.

                  The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.



                  Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India, as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut & have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance to get away they
                  would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].

























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