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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts

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  • Nandan Palaparambil
    Recently visited santhosh farms in Pollachi which is 50 acres and has a mix of coconut, mango trees, teak and many more. He has used Palmyra palm tree as live
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
      Recently visited santhosh farms in Pollachi which is 50 acres and has a mix of coconut, mango trees, teak and many more.

      He has used Palmyra palm tree as live fence since he wanted to block elephants coming to farm from nearby forest.This tree is really strong and uprooting is not easy. I have seen people using Pathimukham (Caesalpenia sappan) which has thorns and has good medicinal values. I use gliricidia which gives lot of mulching material..

      Dr.Nammalvar is an expert in live fencing and you can contact him for guidance.



      Regards,
      Nandan

      --- On Fri, 12/3/10, vivasayee vivasayee <vivasayeee@...> wrote:

      From: vivasayee vivasayee <vivasayeee@...>
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 8:25 PM

      Hi Mr Anant ,Having association to natural farming ,As ucalyptus is non
      environment friendly never recommended as it has the capability to deplete
      the water source as linda explained detail about..There are many cash crops
      you could think of as 90 acres is huge impact to the surroundings ...

      If you want some thing to do for the environment and world ..think twice
      whether to have this plant in ur field  irrespective of its unfriendly
      nature to environment ...

      Regards
      vivasayee

      On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>wrote:

      >
      >
      > Hi Anant,
      >
      > I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?
      >
      > I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy
      > the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in
      > their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal
      > experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t
      > matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to
      > sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are
      > watering from above – impossible!
      >
      > Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are
      > 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes
      > more and more arid...
      >
      > Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for
      > building!
      >
      > For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or
      > hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep
      > out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow.
      > Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase
      > exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and
      > bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the
      > topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!
      >
      > Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to
      > get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have
      > climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too –
      > they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an
      > acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild
      > animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster
      > than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a
      > fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to
      > the soil though!
      >
      > Good luck, Linda
      >
      > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
      > fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>] On
      > Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
      > Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
      > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
      >
      > Hi friends !
      >
      > Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out
      > of 135
      > Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since
      > 1995.My
      > lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a
      > minor
      > irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop
      > within
      > Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
      > Eucalyptus.
      >
      > I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which
      > will
      > control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of
      > soil and
      > stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest
      > some
      > live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.
      >
      > I request advice, suggestions from the group please.
      >
      > Thanks and regards.
      >
      > Anant Joglekar
      > 919423089706
      >
      > Sent with Best Compliments -
      > Call me at-
      > +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
      > Post me at-
      > Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
      > Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001
      >
      > Meet me at-
      > yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro
      >
      > BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...<p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com><mailto:
      > p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com <p_k_nandanan%2540yahoo.com>> >
      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
      > Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
      > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
      >
      > Hi Vishu,
      >
      > I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks
      > like
      > the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown
      > in
      > the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will
      > look
      > like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this
      > will go
      > by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a
      > period of
      > 25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil
      > for so
      > many years.
      >
      > Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
      > http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur,
      > if you
      > need any help I can provide that.
      >
      > Regards,
      > Nandan
      >
      > --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...<magicblack%40gmail.com><mailto:
      > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> > wrote:
      >
      > From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:
      > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> >
      > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
      > Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM
      >
      > Dear All,
      >
      > Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use
      >
      > it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live
      >
      > mulch.
      >
      > I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in
      >
      > coffee plantation.
      >
      > --
      >
      > Vishu
      >
      > http://titli.bikingvikings.com
      >
      > The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nandan Palaparambil
      Linda, Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
        Linda,


        Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they
        are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
        becomes more and more arid...


        Is  Eucalypts spreading by its own or people are planting it? Does goverment do anything about spreading Eucalypts and acacias? Just eager how things work in your part of world.


        Regards,
        Nandan

        --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...> wrote:

        From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>
        Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 10:10 AM







         









        Hi Anant,



        I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?



        I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above – impossible!



        Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more and more arid...



        Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!



        For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!



        Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!



        Good luck, Linda



        From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar

        Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM

        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

        Cc: Nandan Palaparambil

        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica



        Hi friends !



        Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135

        Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

        lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

        irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

        Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

        Eucalyptus.



        I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

        control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and

        stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

        live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.



        I request advice, suggestions from the group please.



        Thanks and regards.



        Anant Joglekar

        919423089706



        Sent with Best Compliments -

        Call me at-

        +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

        Post me at-

        Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

        Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001



        Meet me at-

        yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro



        BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC



        ________________________________

        From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@... <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

        Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica



        Hi Vishu,



        I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like

        the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

        the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

        like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go

        by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of

        25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

        many years.



        Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

        http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you

        need any help I can provide that.



        Regards,

        Nandan



        --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:



        From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

        Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM



        Dear All,



        Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use



        it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live



        mulch.



        I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in



        coffee plantation.



        --



        Vishu



        http://titli.bikingvikings.com



        The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Raju Titus
        Dear friend, All bio diversity provided by nature is Eco-friendly. In some cases mono-culture in man made jungles shows some problem can be solved by adding
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
          Dear friend,
          All bio diversity provided by nature is Eco-friendly. In some cases
          mono-culture in man made jungles shows some problem can be solved by adding
          diversity. Subabul with Eucalyptus will solve problem if any.
          Thanks
          Raju

          On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:25 PM, vivasayee vivasayee <vivasayeee@...>wrote:

          > Hi Mr Anant ,Having association to natural farming ,As ucalyptus is non
          > environment friendly never recommended as it has the capability to deplete
          > the water source as linda explained detail about..There are many cash crops
          > you could think of as 90 acres is huge impact to the surroundings ...
          >
          > If you want some thing to do for the environment and world ..think twice
          > whether to have this plant in ur field irrespective of its unfriendly
          > nature to environment ...
          >
          > Regards
          > vivasayee
          >
          > On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...
          > >wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Anant,
          > >
          > > I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?
          > >
          > > I ask because eucalypts are known for �raping� a landscape � they destroy
          > > the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing
          > in
          > > their root zone and wherever the leaves land � I know this from personal
          > > experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn�t
          > > matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it
          > to
          > > sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you
          > are
          > > watering from above � impossible!
          > >
          > > Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are
          > > 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
          > becomes
          > > more and more arid...
          > >
          > > Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for
          > > building!
          > >
          > > For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry
          > or
          > > hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep
          > > out the cattle � but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow.
          > > Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase
          > > exponentially. I wouldn�t worry about weeds � most of them are GOOD and
          > > bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the
          > > topsoil as they die and decompose... it�s all in the mind!
          > >
          > > Do you have plenty of water year round � if so then you should be able to
          > > get perennial crops growing under them � the ones next door here have
          > > climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well
          > too �
          > > they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from
          > an
          > > acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild
          > > animals and you will get food as well � all good! But they will grow
          > faster
          > > than the eucalypts and may smother them � not so good! If you plant them
          > a
          > > fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won�t add to
          > > the soil though!
          > >
          > > Good luck, Linda
          > >
          > > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com
          > >[mailto:
          > > fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>] On
          > > Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
          > > Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
          > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
          > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
          > >
          > > Hi friends !
          > >
          > > Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out
          > > of 135
          > > Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since
          > > 1995.My
          > > lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a
          > > minor
          > > irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop
          > > within
          > > Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
          > > Eucalyptus.
          > >
          > > I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which
          > > will
          > > control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of
          > > soil and
          > > stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest
          > > some
          > > live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.
          > >
          > > I request advice, suggestions from the group please.
          > >
          > > Thanks and regards.
          > >
          > > Anant Joglekar
          > > 919423089706
          > >
          > > Sent with Best Compliments -
          > > Call me at-
          > > +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
          > > Post me at-
          > > Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
          > > Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001
          > >
          > > Meet me at-
          > > yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro
          > >
          > > BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC
          > >
          > > ________________________________
          > > From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...<p_k_nandanan%
          > 40yahoo.com><mailto:
          > > p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com <p_k_nandanan%2540yahoo.com>> >
          > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com
          > ><mailto:
          > > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
          > > Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
          > >
          > > Hi Vishu,
          > >
          > > I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it
          > looks
          > > like
          > > the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is
          > grown
          > > in
          > > the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will
          > > look
          > > like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this
          > > will go
          > > by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a
          > > period of
          > > 25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil
          > > for so
          > > many years.
          > >
          > > Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
          > > http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town
          > Trichur,
          > > if you
          > > need any help I can provide that.
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > > Nandan
          > >
          > > --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...<magicblack%
          > 40gmail.com><mailto:
          > > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> > wrote:
          > >
          > > From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <magicblack%40gmail.com>
          > <mailto:
          > > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> >
          > > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
          > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com
          > ><mailto:
          > > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
          > > Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM
          > >
          > > Dear All,
          > >
          > > Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to
          > use
          > >
          > > it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live
          > >
          > > mulch.
          > >
          > > I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in
          > >
          > > coffee plantation.
          > >
          > > --
          > >
          > > Vishu
          > >
          > > http://titli.bikingvikings.com
          > >
          > > The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it
          > happens
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          --
          Raju Titus. Hoshangabad. 461001.India.
          +919179738049.
          http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus<http://picasawebalbum.google.com/rajuktitus>
          fukuoka_farming yahoogroup


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jason Stewart
          Dear Nandan, and all, This is my natural heartfelt work all my life, my part of the world (too), Australia, especially Melbourne, far-east gippsland farming
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
            Dear Nandan, and all,

            This is my natural heartfelt work all my life, my part of the world (too),
            Australia, especially Melbourne, far-east gippsland farming rural areas,
            Victoria, Sydney, rural areas, NSW, ACT (Canberra & rural arras) and my
            professional–natural–work for all and sundry (local state & federal gov't's,
            voluntarily for communities including Aborigines' communities, companies,
            farmers, landcare, bushcare, Royal Melb. Golf Club, etc.).
            The authority & credibility, i have (without ego as best as i can), to say that
            that is complete nonsense and must not get taken any further PLEASE! -quote:
            "Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80%
            (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia

            becomes more and more arid..."

            It's an extreme misrepresentation of ancient Australian geology, palaeobotany,
            palynology and so on, poorly derived by Peter Andrews that i've read of his
            writing, —evidently i understand this ancient Australian geology, palaeobotany,
            palynology better than Peter Andrews does—i suppose because i have, in
            privileges, been trained in it properly in University—
            –deriving from taken completely out of context, 65 million (65,000,000) and more
            years ago—Gondwanaland at the south pole— when Dinosaurs roamed the Earth and
            most Angiosperm plants hadn't revolved yet (sensu late Mr.
            Fukuoka<=evolved)—when the Himalaya's, according to geology, didnt exist yet,
            and when India was not yet India but rather an subcontinent-sized island, north
            of Antarctica, moving centimetres north per year towards continental Asia or
            even, still part of the supercontinent Gondwanaland.
            At this natural time plants, of what is now Australia, NZ, south America &
            India, didn't include Eucalypts at all because they hadn't revolved yet (sensu
            late Mr. Fukuoka<=evolved) at all.
            The then ancestor species of all Eucalypts still grow today and are still found
            today in the Wet Tropical Rainforests of far north Queenland, Australia & PNG –
            most notably _Stockwellia_quadrifida_ (named after forester Mr. Stockwell).
            Hence at that time 65,000,000 or more years ago the climate of the whole of our
            Earth was very different, the continents (land masses) were not as they are
            today, at all, and the plants and animals were not at all as they are today
            (except for a very few botanically famous persisting species today like
            Stockwellia, Wollemia, Araucaria, Agathis, Eucalyptopsis, few Protea-ancestors,
            few Casuarina-ancestors, etc.)
            As Australia (& India & NZ islands) broke into island–continents off from
            Gondwanaland they very slowly moved northwards at varying rates of a few
            centimetres per year. Multiply for example 5 cm by 65,000,000 years and you have
            3250 km! As they moved towards the equator from the region of the south pole and
            the Earth's climate changed through many revolutions, all over 65,000,000 years,
            India came to smash into Asia pushing up the tallest mountain range in our
            Earth, the Himalayas, creating the new headwaters of the sacred Ganges and many
            more rivers. Australia moved slowly towards south-east Asia through the
            Indian-Pacific ocean, into middle latitudes where the world over and in whatever
            Earth climate they are known as relatively less rain-bearing latitudes from the
            Earth-atmospheric circulation nature; Hence Australia is now known as "the
            driest inhabited continent on Earth", about three-quarters by area-measurement
            has an arid climate, naturally, since millions of years ago, which did lead to
            the revolution (sensu late Mr. Fukuoka<=evolution) of Eucalypts and all the
            non-rainforest floras around Australia, making up perhaps 20,000 species &
            varieties of plants, which hadn't revolved=evolved as species yet at that time.
            Hence also, as some human *cultures* and not others, have destroyed vegetation
            en masse around our Earth over the last 13,000 years –eg.
            Mediterranean-surrounding-cultures, some African-cultures–, these middle
            latitudes in the northern and southern hemisphere's are the most vulnerable and
            least quickly recovering from this vegetation destruction, so desert persists
            longer, taking the longest to recover in these regions. Where in other regions
            the moisture available from elsewhere like off oceans recovers the vegetation
            more quickly.

            You don't have to believe any of this science-based palaeo-history, but whatever
            you believe about it, do not please believe interpretations of this science that
            hack into incoherence (& in places racialist against Aborigines) by Peter
            Andrews. The real sources the science, behind his science confusion, are there
            in the original science writing for all to freely read.

            etcetera
            etcetera

            /End of Gondwanaland history basics rushed-lesson.

            Linda,
            evidently you're way out of your depth on this subject, as evidently is Peter
            Andrews, meanwhile as i'm, simply out of my depth, but can at least, roughly
            relay the correct interpretation of many other scientists work, enough to
            correct grossly unbalanced misinformation; to put this group back onto its topic
            of healing our Earth rather than destroying it in the name of discriminating
            falsely against Eucalypts. Eucalypts are natures lovely, in heart & practise,
            trees & shrubs here in Oz in their more than 600 varieties.
            Please read (available from the Libraries) the "Flora of Victoria [Australia]"
            volume 1: Introductory volume with a Mr. Fukuoka slant on its science – and take
            none of this rubbish advice part of his writing from Peter Andrews.
            Please stop confusing people with fourth-hand poorly & emotively interpreted
            nonsense.


            Best wishes to all,

            Jason Stewart


            ________________________________
            From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, December 4, 2010 3:31:16
            Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts


            Linda,

            Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they
            are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
            becomes more and more arid...

            Is Eucalypts spreading by its own or people are planting it? Does goverment do
            anything about spreading Eucalypts and acacias? Just eager how things work in
            your part of world.

            Regards,
            Nandan

            --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...> wrote:

            From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>
            Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 10:10 AM



            Hi Anant,

            I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?

            I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the
            soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their
            root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience
            because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much
            compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at
            all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above –
            impossible!

            Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80%
            (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more
            and more arid...

            Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!

            For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or
            hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out
            the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you
            have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I
            wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from
            the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and
            decompose... it’s all in the mind!

            Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get
            perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like
            honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the
            bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above
            them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get
            food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may
            smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the
            trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!

            Good luck, Linda

            From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar

            Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM

            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

            Cc: Nandan Palaparambil

            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

            Hi friends !

            Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135


            Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

            lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

            irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

            Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

            Eucalyptus.

            I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

            control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and


            stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

            live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

            I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

            Thanks and regards.

            Anant Joglekar

            919423089706

            Sent with Best Compliments -

            Call me at-

            +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

            Post me at-

            Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

            Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

            Meet me at-

            yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

            BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

            ________________________________

            From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...
            <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

            Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

            Hi Vishu,

            I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like


            the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

            the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

            like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go


            by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of


            25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

            many years.

            Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

            http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you


            need any help I can provide that.

            Regards,

            Nandan

            --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...
            <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

            From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

            Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

            Dear All,

            Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

            it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

            mulch.

            I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

            coffee plantation.

            --

            Vishu

            http://titli.bikingvikings.com

            The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Linda Shewan
            Hi Nandan, Acacias regenerate from fire, (when planting seed you pour boiling water over the seeds to create the same stimulation for germination), while most
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
              Hi Nandan,



              Acacias regenerate from fire, (when planting seed you pour boiling water over the seeds to create the same stimulation for germination), while most other plants are simply killed by fire. So the fires that ravage the Australian landscape every summer are probably the biggest cause. Also the traditional aboriginal farming techniques of burning tracts of bushland and then allowing them to regrow actually stimulates the germination of these species above all others – this is not racist, just reality – although not all the land was burnt in this way, over the 40000 years of aboriginal management it would obviously have had some impact.



              Eucalypts spread both by fire regeneration (the fire creates a seed bed where they are then able to colonise areas that were previously covered by grasses etc) and by major plantings both in plantations and as native regeneration projects. I have baby eucalypts come up every year in my back yard from seeds falling into either disturbed soil or tubs of potting mix. They don’t seem to germinate so easily in areas already occupied by grass or other vegetation that isn’t burnt off or bare for any other reason.



              Here is an interesting report on eucalypts in California http://library.csustan.edu/bsantos/section3.htm - covers both for and against and gives good forestry practices if you choose to use them.

              And another that really just condemns them... http://www.audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite0201.html



              There are definitely pros and cons – and I absolutely love the eucalypts here, but I don’t feel the need to grow masses more of them as they are already very well represented. However in any native planting project, I definitely include them – I just try and add a lot of other flora for diversity as well.



              Kind Regards, Linda







              From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nandan Palaparambil
              Sent: Saturday, 4 December 2010 3:31 AM
              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts





              Linda,

              Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they
              are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
              becomes more and more arid...

              Is Eucalypts spreading by its own or people are planting it? Does goverment do anything about spreading Eucalypts and acacias? Just eager how things work in your part of world.

              Regards,
              Nandan

              --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@... <mailto:linda_shewan%40yahoo.com.au> > wrote:

              From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@... <mailto:linda_shewan%40yahoo.com.au> >
              Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 10:10 AM



              Hi Anant,

              I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?

              I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above – impossible!

              Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more and more arid...

              Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!

              For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!

              Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!

              Good luck, Linda

              From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar

              Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM

              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

              Cc: Nandan Palaparambil

              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

              Hi friends !

              Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135

              Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

              lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

              irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

              Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

              Eucalyptus.

              I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

              control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and

              stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

              live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

              I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

              Thanks and regards.

              Anant Joglekar

              919423089706

              Sent with Best Compliments -

              Call me at-

              +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

              Post me at-

              Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

              Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

              Meet me at-

              yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

              BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

              ________________________________

              From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@... <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

              Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

              Hi Vishu,

              I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like

              the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

              the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

              like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go

              by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of

              25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

              many years.

              Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

              http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you

              need any help I can provide that.

              Regards,

              Nandan

              --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

              From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

              Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

              Dear All,

              Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

              it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

              mulch.

              I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

              coffee plantation.

              --

              Vishu

              http://titli.bikingvikings.com

              The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • greenie6666
              Dear Friends: I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                Dear Friends:
                I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus & Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India & recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems we discuss here.
                Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt & read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm 18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown, they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants, then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has made them the dominant species.
                Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest species were scorched & died.
                Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
                When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury ourselves deeper & deeper.
                The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

                Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India, as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut & have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].
              • Jason Stewart
                Dear all, and Norm, In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei s natural people , Norm you are depressingly–falsely tarring original natural
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                  Dear all, and Norm,

                  In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural people", Norm you
                  are depressingly–falsely 'tarring' original "natural people" with the tar-brush
                  of obviously–the–extreme–of–world–history examples of, my ancestors, greedy,
                  land–grabbing–stealing, destructive (to nature and self=all nature), invading,
                  grossly unsustainable, child–enslaving & African–enslaving–trading, historical
                  Western European & Middle Eastern peoples (as i wrote as the extreme example
                  peoples – often distinct as people speaking languages of the Indo-European
                  language family and the inventors of the only *extremely–expansionary* forms of
                  unsustainable agriculture)

                  One key scholarly reference example:
                  Harris, D. (2002). The expansion capacity of early agricultural systems: a
                  comparative perspective on the spread of agriculture.In P. Bellwood and C.
                  Renfrew eds,Examining the Farming/Language Dispersal Hypothesis, pp. 31–40.
                  Cambridge: McDonald Institute for Archaeological
                  Research.

                  -----------------------

                  In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural faming" "natural
                  people", Norm you are passing on lies by your writing "the Aborigines didn't
                  have any form of agriculture".


                  Scholarly References (i have and have read all these papers, and can supply them
                  if really needed):
                  *
                  Convincing Ground: Learning to Fall in love with your country

                  ________________________________

                  Bruce PASCOE
                  Availability: Print
                  Electronic Book Format: www.ebooks.com
                  April 2007, pb, 234x153mm, 304pp, b/w illus
                  RRP $39.95 incl. GST
                  ISBN 9780855755492
                  | Contents | Sample Chapter | Index | Reviews |





























                  -> http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/asp/aspbooks/convground.html


                  * Gammage, Bill 2003. Australia Under Aboriginal Management, 15th Barry Andrews
                  Memorial Lecture,
                  2002, Canberra: University College, University of NSW, Australian Defence Force
                  Academy.

                  * Denham, T.P. 2008. Traditional forms of plant exploitation in Australia and
                  New Guinea: the search for common ground. Vegetation History and
                  Archaeobotany 17: 245-8.
                  -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_TraditionalForms.pdf
                  -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/projects/wgp/TDenham_Project.html

                  * Gammage, Bill (2005), " '...far more happier than we Europeans': Aborigines
                  and farmers" (PDF), London Papers in Australian Studies (formerly Working Papers
                  in Australian Studies) (London: Menzies Centre for Australian Studies. King's
                  College. Each year the Centre publishes London Papers in Australian Studies .
                  These are representative of some of the most recent and exciting intellectual
                  work in Australian Studies.) (12): 1–27, ISSN 1746-1774, retrieved 2010-11-23
                  -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/content/1/c6/01/27/52/LPAS12BillGammage1.pdf
                  -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/schools/humanities/depts/menzies/research/pubs/lp

                  * Gammage, Bill 1986. Narrandera Shire Narrandera: Bill Gammage for the
                  Narrandera Shire Council.

                  * Denham, T., Donohue, M., & Booth, S. Horticultural experimentation in northern
                  Australia reconsidered. Antiquity No. 83
                  -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_etal_2009_Antiquity.pdf

                  * Gerritsen, R (2008). Australia and the origins of agricultureArchaeopress -
                  British Archaeological Reports Ltd

                  * Denham, T.P. and S. Mooney (2008). Human-environment interactions in Australia
                  and New Guinea during the Holocene. The Holocene 18(3): 373-9.

                  * Gott, Beth (1983) Murnong–Microseris scapigera: a study of a staple food of
                  Victorian Aborigines - Australian Aboriginal Studies

                  * Gott, Beth (1992) Koorie Plants, Koorie People: Traditional Aboriginal Food,
                  Fibre and Healing Plants of Victoria - Koorie Heritage Trust, Victoria,
                  Australia.

                  * Gott, Beth (2005) Aboriginal fire management in south‐eastern Australia: aims
                  and frequency - Journal of Biogeography, Wiley

                  * Gammage, Bill (2008) Plain facts: Tasmania under aboriginal management -
                  Landscape Research - Routledge
                  -> http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Gammagetasaborigsfires.pdf

                  * Gerritsen, R (2010). 'Evidence for indigenous Australian
                  agriculture',Australasian Science, vol. 31, no. 6, pp. 35-37.
                  -> http://www.australasianscience.com.au/article/issue-july-august-2010/evidence-indigenous-australian-agriculture.html


                  * Denham, T.P. 2007. Early agriculture: recent conceptual and methodological
                  developments. In T.P. Denham and P. White, eds, The emergence of agriculture: a
                  global view, pp. 1-25. London: Routledge.

                  * Denham, T.P. and J.P. White (eds.) (2007). The emergence of agriculture: a
                  global view One World Archaeology Reader, London: Routledge.

                  *Denham, T.P. J. Atchison, J. Austin, S. Bestel, D. Bowdery, A. Crowther, N.
                  Dolby, A. Fairbairn, J. Field, A. Kennedy, C. Lentfer, C. Matheson, S. Nugent,
                  J. Parr, M. Prebble, G. Robertson, J. Specht, R. Torrence, H. Barton, R.
                  Fullagar, S. Haberle, M. Horrocks, T. Lewis and P. Matthews (2009).
                  Archaeobotany in Australia and New Guinea: practice, potential and
                  prospects. Australian Archaeology (accepted December 2008).
                  -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/denham_etal_2009.pdf

                  * Denham, T.P., R. Fullagar and L. Head In press. Plant exploitation on Sahul:
                  from colonisation to the emergence of regional specialisation during the
                  Holocene. Quaternary International (accepted March 2008).

                  * Gott, Beth (2008) Indigenous use of plants in south-eastern
                  Australia - Telopea - rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au


                  Many more contemporary papers by Gott, Beth; Bill Gammage; Chase; Hynes & Chase;
                  etc..
                  Much more literature by early European Australians.


                  BTW:
                  * Beth Gott is an elder ethno-botanist from Monash University, Melbourne; was my
                  University lecturer there in 1990; and i continue to correspond with at times.
                  * Tim Denham is a scholar from Monash University, Melbourne
                  * Rupert Gerritsen is a self-funded scholar from here in Canberra attached to
                  the National Library of Australia, A Petherick reader; who i've met &
                  corresponded with a few times about all of this subject material


                  -----------------------

                  Do not get out your apparently triumphalist–Euro-centric–knives (please),
                  whether you know you are doing so or not,
                  to stab–in–the–back people in this sub–continent, who get called Aborigines.
                  It amazes me how you who obviously–evidently are way out of your depth of
                  detailed knowledge of this subject shoot your mouth of with unreferenced and
                  often unbalanced opinions, while the most scholarly people i personally know of
                  this subject, actively choose to say very circumspect statements about these
                  ancient, or 200 years ago history, or today continuing but severely dispossed,
                  subjects.
                  Not really reading, listening, to what i've written about this subject here for
                  up to 8 years and longer elsewhere, and to the extensively documented history of
                  this subject; I'm really tired of that, of you–kind–of–Ozzies, Norm & Peter, and
                  previously Adam & so on, not really reading, listening and so on to so many
                  saying this for so many years, on this subject—thousands of years of sustainable
                  nature farming in this continent, in the sense of the definition of late Mr.
                  Fukuoka Masanobu sensei.

                  It's great you've been to travelling in India. I want to hear a lot more stories
                  about that please.
                  But it is not necessary for this subject, learning this subject, to travel to
                  India.
                  The longest continuing nature farming traditions (in the sense of late Mr.
                  Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's definition by his principles) in our Earth, and still
                  continuing in some places in NSW, Australia, not so far from you Norm, like for
                  example with the Scuthorpe's family in N.W. NSW.
                  It's right before your eyes in the native Oz flora (& fauna) only waiting for
                  you to see and hear and smell and touch and 'aware' it AND EAT it!

                  Book Reference:

                  "Bush foods of New South Wales"

                  by Kathy Stewart & Bob Percival
                  (Royal Botanic Gardens, Sydney 1997).

                  -29 pages - many great photos - many great drawings-

                  -> http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/85542/Bushfoodsbook.pdf


                  Freeeeee!!! - I've paid money to buy many copies of it for friends over the
                  years.


                  An analogy reference:
                  "ON A GREEN MOUNTAIN - With Masanobu Fukuoka Sensei of Natural Farming
                  -Copyright (c) 1995 Jim Bones"
                  -> http://web.archive.org/web/20060413224615/www.seedballs.com/gmmfpa.html


                  ________________________________


                  In order now is, from
                  Historian, Teacher, Award winning writer of numerous book, short stories, poems
                  et. al., Editor, etc,
                  a truthful writing quote, for which plenty of scholarly and historical
                  documentation occurs in the public record and often by famous historical figures
                  like Mitchell, Sturt, etc.:
                  -> http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5858
                  "
                  Australians in denial ...
                  By Bruce Pascoe - posted Monday, 21 May 2007

                  Australia is a baby. An innocent baby, gurgling with good humour and wonder.
                  We've pulled the paper bag over our head and believe no-one can see us.

                  There we are, in the middle of the floor with a bag over our head. We refuse to
                  look back at our past and hope that with no effort on our part the future will
                  look after itself.

                  We live in a country with an incredible history but pretend it began in 1788.
                  The ancient past was not written so therefore it doesn't exist. The Aborigines
                  are primitive hunter gatherers who are migrants to the country just like us, so
                  really they had no more right to the land than we did. And we're better at it.


                  Oh, baby, pull off the bag, examine your land.

                  It is on the public record that Aboriginal people were not feckless and innocent
                  nomads but constructed complex housing; harvested grain, yams, eels, fish and
                  other produce with sophisticated feats of engineering; and created the first and
                  most enduring art, music and language in the world.

                  The social organisation looks amazingly like the first democracy, the first
                  modern state where art and dance were devoted more time than the procurement of
                  food.

                  We live in an incredible place but refuse to believe its history.

                  The eel aquaculture of the Western District of Victoria covers thousands of
                  hectares and involves hundreds of kilometres of stone walls, weirs and tunnels
                  burrowed through solid rock. The houses for these fishermen were set out in
                  large villages and some of them could accommodate 20 or more people. They are
                  like small town halls.

                  Grain was harvested in Queensland and from other grasslands: the fields of over
                  1,000 acres were carefully managed to maintain productivity. Settlers found this
                  grain stored in stone silos and intricately sewn, vermin proof skin bags. Often
                  the stored grain weighed over one tonne.

                  This is all on the public record in the first hand reports of Europeans. So why
                  do we maintain the myth of a crude civilisation meandering hopelessly across the
                  continent? Because we have to? Because to admit anything else defies our
                  perception of ownership and legitimacy, our own perception of how we took the
                  land?

                  We need to understand that there was a war in this country and the Indigenes
                  lost it but not before conducting battles which forced the Europeans back on
                  many fronts in the campaign. Aboriginal people did not just go away, disappear,
                  die out from exotic diseases - they were defeated in war. That war is on the
                  public record. The word “war” was used by our first governors and magistrates:
                  it is there for any Australian to read.

                  Of course it was unlike any other war we are familiar with because Aboriginal
                  people had lived within nation boundaries which remained the same over
                  thousands, probably tens of thousands, of years - their languages tell us this
                  because of the reference to ancient climatic and geological events. This country
                  is unique but we can't bring ourselves to admit it because we have to believe
                  the Indigenes walked away from it, left the field in awe of the marvellous
                  European.

                  I implore young Australians to undertake a scrutiny of the available material
                  and begin a negotiation with Aboriginal Australia, not about money but about our
                  shared history, our shared future and in celebration of this land we love, the
                  land we toast with cups of tea and Indigenous wine and beer

                  We love our country but have pulled the bag over our head pretending the world
                  can't see how we arrived

                  Young Australians please read your history, don't believe your elders' version
                  of events, most have got their head in a bag. You are young, intelligent,
                  hopeful, you have the rest of your lives ahead of you. Enjoy it, learn that you
                  live in a fabulous place where a civilisation developed which may yet teach us
                  crucial lessons about sustainability and civilised behaviour.

                  To understand our history is not an act of grand generosity but a bloody-minded
                  necessity. The alternative is to live with a bag over your head ... and baby,
                  it's dark in there.
                  "


                  Enough evidence said???


                  Biggest best wishes,

                  Jason
                  SE Oz.


                  ________________________________
                  From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:14:57
                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts


                  Dear Friends:
                  I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in
                  India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus &
                  Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India &
                  recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the
                  end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very
                  impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems
                  we discuss here.
                  Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow
                  ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt &
                  read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I
                  have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm
                  18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their
                  abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown,
                  they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract
                  nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a
                  place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first
                  started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted
                  then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this
                  area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they
                  extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants,
                  then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of
                  their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves
                  retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The
                  smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or
                  think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most
                  Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular
                  fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has
                  made them the dominant species.
                  Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost
                  annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less
                  flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew
                  more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because
                  mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire
                  prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as
                  mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation
                  in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one
                  year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member
                  of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn
                  at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest
                  species were scorched & died.
                  Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of
                  us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying
                  that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the
                  Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to
                  manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is
                  said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time
                  into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that
                  deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved
                  into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people
                  inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has
                  had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic
                  if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose
                  back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with
                  us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are
                  supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we
                  consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for
                  what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of
                  natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
                  When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous
                  paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said
                  as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to
                  solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury
                  ourselves deeper & deeper.
                  The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of
                  Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of
                  these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me
                  that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future
                  in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar
                  to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more
                  than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to
                  that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases
                  these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach
                  maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

                  Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical
                  areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well
                  in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India,
                  as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large
                  bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might
                  be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the
                  early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them
                  before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in
                  the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type
                  legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see
                  the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut &
                  have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance
                  to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be
                  removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted
                  these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their
                  management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other
                  plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to
                  Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a
                  shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as
                  mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jason Stewart
                  Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei only talks–writes about re–Greening (in the sense of verdure) the world s man-made deserts – he spells this out in
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                    Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei only talks–writes about re–Greening (in the
                    sense of verdure) the world's man-made deserts – he spells this out in numerous
                    documents – simplistically the areas that humans have desertified, not the
                    natural deserts originating from nature-Great-Spirit-God-humans.
                    Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei does not throw out out pre-existing knowledge,
                    explicitly he explains that that is necessary to fix the problems created by
                    previous knowledge. It's better called by prexifing with the Japanese word: Mu
                    knowledge – meaning no knowledge (against or outside of nature) – meaning all
                    the credit for knowledge goes to nature and does not go to us as individuals –
                    no egocentric knowledge. In alignment with the terms like no-action (mu i)
                    (against nature) and no weeding by cultivation or herbicides (against nature),
                    etc. .

                    Are you going to 'grow' a nature farm in the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu
                    sensei in Antarctica?
                    No! (that's of course absurd).
                    Antarctica is, known as, the driest continent, on our Earth (essentially not
                    permanently inhabitated in the self-sustaining sense of the definition of
                    inhabited – Oz the driest inhabited continent)
                    Antarctica, frozen deserts, of course are natural! (since tens of millions of
                    years ago)

                    Australia, central Australia's, deserts, originate in nature, existing in
                    plentiful evidence since many millions of years ago, and many millions of years
                    before humans ever existed.
                    They are in constant flux (change) as is all nature, all the time. Expansion,
                    contraction, different plant and animal species coming and going over millions
                    of years, with many different shapes and sizes—forms—Protean.
                    Humbly, the first Australians in much-evidence tamed the
                    massive–continental–scale wild fires (lightning ignitions) by vastly reducing
                    the scale, intensity and damage of those massive–continental–scale wild fires to
                    human–scale patch burning the grassy vegetation types, and parts, not all, of
                    the the shrubby–heathy vegetation types at the time European people, my
                    ancestors, were invading with their colony (1770–88–).

                    Reference:
                    Bowman, David "Bushfires: A Darwinian Perspective"
                    in Geoffrey Cary, David Lindenmayer, Stephen Dovers (2003) Australia burning:
                    fire ecology, policy and management issues
                    CSIRO Publishing. 280 pp.

                    The Atacama desert, Chile is another natural desert from natural atmosphere &
                    ocean current circulations and rainshadow behind mountains.
                    Wikipedia quote:
                    "
                    The Atacama Desert is a virtually rainless plateau in South America, covering a
                    600-mile (1,000 km) strip of land on the Pacific coast of South America, west of
                    the Andes mountains. The Atacama desert is, according to NASA,National
                    Geographic and many other publications, the driest desert in the
                    world,[1][2][3] due to the rain shadow on theleeward side of the Chilean Coast
                    Range, as well as a coastal inversion layer created by the cold
                    offshore Humboldt Current.[4] The Atacama occupies 40,600 square miles (105,000
                    km2)[5] in northern Chile, composed mostly of saltbasins (salares), sand,
                    and felsic lava flows towards the Andes.
                    "

                    ________________________________
                    From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:14:57
                    Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts


                    Dear Friends:
                    I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in
                    India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus &
                    Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India &
                    recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the
                    end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very
                    impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems
                    we discuss here.
                    Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow
                    ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt &
                    read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I
                    have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm
                    18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their
                    abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown,
                    they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract
                    nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a
                    place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first
                    started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted
                    then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this
                    area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they
                    extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants,
                    then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of
                    their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves
                    retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The
                    smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or
                    think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most
                    Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular
                    fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has
                    made them the dominant species.
                    Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost
                    annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less
                    flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew
                    more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because
                    mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire
                    prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as
                    mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation
                    in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one
                    year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member
                    of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn
                    at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest
                    species were scorched & died.
                    Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of
                    us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying
                    that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the
                    Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to
                    manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is
                    said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time
                    into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that
                    deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved
                    into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people
                    inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has
                    had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic
                    if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose
                    back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with
                    us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are
                    supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we
                    consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for
                    what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of
                    natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
                    When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous
                    paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said
                    as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to
                    solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury
                    ourselves deeper & deeper.
                    The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of
                    Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of
                    these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me
                    that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future
                    in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar
                    to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more
                    than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to
                    that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases
                    these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach
                    maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

                    Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical
                    areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well
                    in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India,
                    as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large
                    bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might
                    be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the
                    early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them
                    before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in
                    the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type
                    legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see
                    the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut &
                    have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance
                    to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be
                    removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted
                    these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their
                    management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other
                    plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to
                    Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a
                    shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as
                    mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Anant Joglekar
                    Hi Thank you very much for your email. My father ( Anant Joglekar ) is out of station till 10 December, 2010 He shall get back to you after coming back. Warm
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 5, 2010
                      Hi

                      Thank you very much for your email.

                      My father ( Anant Joglekar ) is out of station till 10 December, 2010 He shall
                      get back to you after coming back.

                      Warm Regards

                      Shubhada Joglekar




                      Sent with Best Compliments -
                      Call me at-
                      +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
                      Post me at-
                      Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
                      Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                      Meet me at-
                      yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                      BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC





                      ________________________________
                      From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Cc: Anant Joglekar <apjoglekar@...>
                      Sent: Fri, 3 December, 2010 10:58:47 AM
                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica


                      Dear Anant Joglekar,

                      Writing this from the land of the native Eucalypts (about 600 species native)
                      Australia, :) , i write:
                      Please list the names of any plants growing around the area there, any names you

                      have including Indian local common names, of any possible suitable plants such
                      as grasses, shrubs, legumes and spiny plants for the live fencing.

                      I have the name of Cockspur Thorn –botanical name:
                      "_Maclura_cochinchinensis_ (Lour.) Corner" of India and of Australia and China.
                      A very spiny woody big spreading shrub &/or vine, with edible ripe orange
                      fruits. It naturally grows in forests (dry & wet rainforests, & wet Eucalypt
                      forests) in warm temperate and subtropical south and eastern Australia (NSW &
                      QLD).

                      -> http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Cockspur%20Thorn.htmlMore photos

                      in Australia:

                      ->
                      http://plantnet.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/NSWfl.pl?page=nswfl&lvl=sp&name=Maclura~cochinchinensis->
                      http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/index.php?href=botanical&dir=botanical_pages&subpage=view&ext=php&array_place=13&item_id=533#image_533
                      3

                      (
                      http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/botanical_images/Maclura%20cochinchinensis%209.jpg
                      )

                      -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackdiamondimages/4205370259/in/photostream/
                      -> http://toowoombaplants2008.blogspot.com/2008/02/cockspur-thorn.html

                      ----------------------------------------------------------

                      Any leguminous nitrogen fixing species please list, we all may each have some
                      pieces of encouraging information about a list of your local species, if you
                      need to please ask local people and local farmers the local plant species.

                      Eucalypts (from Australia) can produce unusual environments underneath their
                      trees, from the leaf oils, and from the root symbiotic relationships, root
                      chemicals and environments made by the roots. Unusual elsewhere in the world.
                      Here in Australia there are many endemic species of plants long adapted growing
                      in these Eucalypt environments, above-ground and in the root zone (adapted
                      meaning revolved sensu Mr. Fukuoka instead of evolved sensu science, long
                      meaning over millions of years).

                      Best wishes to all,
                      Jase
                      (Jason Stewart)
                      south-eastern Australia

                      ________________________________
                      From: Anant Joglekar <apjoglekar@...>
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Cc: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                      Sent: Friday, December 3, 2010 12:45:18
                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                      Hi friends !

                      Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135


                      Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My
                      lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor
                      irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within
                      Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
                      Eucalyptus.

                      I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will
                      control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and


                      stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some
                      live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

                      I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

                      Thanks and regards.

                      Anant Joglekar
                      919423089706

                      Sent with Best Compliments -
                      Call me at-
                      +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
                      Post me at-
                      Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
                      Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                      Meet me at-
                      yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                      BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

                      ________________________________
                      From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                      Hi Vishu,

                      I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like


                      the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in
                      the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look
                      like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go


                      by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of


                      25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so
                      many years.

                      Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
                      http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you


                      need any help I can provide that.

                      Regards,
                      Nandan

                      --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...> wrote:

                      From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...>
                      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

                      Dear All,

                      Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

                      it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

                      mulch.

                      I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

                      coffee plantation.

                      --

                      Vishu

                      http://titli.bikingvikings.com

                      The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

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                    • Nandan Palaparambil
                      Hi Norm, A couple of people (Rajuji, Kumaraswamy +??) have been reporting that green gram (moong dal) can be used instead of white clover. Also there has been
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 7, 2010
                        Hi Norm,

                        A couple of people (Rajuji, Kumaraswamy +??) have been reporting that green gram (moong dal) can be used instead of white clover. Also there has been a suggestion that cow pea also can be used..But I think this research has to be done in more fields and a working system like Fukuoka's style of paddy has to come up.

                        Please read Fukuoka san's statement on white clover in the following interview..

                        http://thepines.blogspot.com/2009/07/pines-i-notice-that-youre-drawing.html -

                        "Hmmm... my climate is totally unlike his, so rather than use white
                        clover, I'll try this other ground cover." That line of reasoning could
                        well take you off the track and lead you down a lot of blind alleys!
                        Clover is necessary to keep the weeds back and replenish the soil.



                        Regards,
                        Nandan

                        --- On Sun, 12/5/10, greenie6666 <normbeee@...> wrote:

                        From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
                        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts
                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 4:44 AM







                         









                        Dear Friends:

                        I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus & Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India & recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems we discuss here.

                        Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt & read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm 18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown, they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they extracted all available
                        moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants, then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has made them the dominant species.

                        Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest species were scorched & died.

                        Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose back into the earth, which
                        is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.

                        When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury ourselves deeper & deeper.

                        The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.



                        Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India, as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut & have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance to get away they
                        would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].

























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