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RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts

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  • Linda Shewan
    Hi Anant, I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area? I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 2, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Anant,



      I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?



      I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above – impossible!



      Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more and more arid...



      Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!



      For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!



      Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!





      Good luck, Linda





      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
      Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica





      Hi friends !

      Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135
      Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My
      lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor
      irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within
      Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
      Eucalyptus.

      I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will
      control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and
      stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some
      live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

      I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

      Thanks and regards.

      Anant Joglekar
      919423089706

      Sent with Best Compliments -
      Call me at-
      +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
      Post me at-
      Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
      Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

      Meet me at-
      yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

      BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

      ________________________________
      From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@... <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

      Hi Vishu,

      I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like
      the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in
      the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look
      like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go
      by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of
      25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so
      many years.

      Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
      http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you
      need any help I can provide that.

      Regards,
      Nandan

      --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

      From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >
      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

      Dear All,

      Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

      it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

      mulch.

      I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

      coffee plantation.

      --

      Vishu

      http://titli.bikingvikings.com

      The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jason Stewart
      Dear friend Linda, Peter Andrews half talks realistically (especially his great realisation writings about stream and half talks incoherent claptrap (i m not
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 2, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear friend Linda,

        Peter Andrews half talks realistically (especially his great realisation
        writings about stream and half talks incoherent claptrap (i'm not sure which of
        perceptions prejudices, ethnocentric-biases, emotions, feelings, plain errors or
        what).
        Popularity which he has, and appearance of credibility which latterly he now
        has, amongst many but far from all people, does not reality—make!
        We all humanly make errors, do sloppy work lacking rigour, we all err –anyone
        who says "humans are rational" is definitely irrational–
        We all have emotions feelings & perceptions, it depends what we do with our
        intellectual-side to our emotions to re-direct them and their energy into
        expression(s) which are beneficial to all, if not also perhaps-accidentally
        expressing so called rationality –much vaunted by Richard Dawkins whose memes
        work, for one of many examples, definitively is irrational.

        Futhermore, Linda this your wording cant sustain scrutiny: "eucalypts are known
        for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the soil, suck up ALL the water" – nor
        have you referenced. I'm happy if you merely qualify it as your feelings.
        Because it is not evidence based... .


        Best wishes to you & all,

        Jase
        Jason Stewart
        south-eastern Oz

        ________________________________
        From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, December 3, 2010 15:40:50
        Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts


        Hi Anant,

        I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?

        I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the
        soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their
        root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience
        because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much
        compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at
        all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above –
        impossible!

        Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80%
        (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more
        and more arid...

        Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!

        For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or
        hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out
        the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you
        have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I
        wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from
        the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and
        decompose... it’s all in the mind!

        Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get
        perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like
        honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the
        bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above
        them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get
        food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may
        smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the
        trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!

        Good luck, Linda

        From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
        Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

        Hi friends !

        Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135

        Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My
        lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor
        irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within
        Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
        Eucalyptus.

        I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will
        control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and

        stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some
        live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

        I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

        Thanks and regards.

        Anant Joglekar
        919423089706

        Sent with Best Compliments -
        Call me at-
        +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
        Post me at-
        Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
        Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

        Meet me at-
        yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

        BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

        ________________________________
        From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...
        <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

        Hi Vishu,

        I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like

        the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in
        the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look
        like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go

        by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of

        25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so
        many years.

        Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
        http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you

        need any help I can provide that.

        Regards,
        Nandan

        --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...
        <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

        From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >
        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

        Dear All,

        Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

        it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

        mulch.

        I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

        coffee plantation.

        --

        Vishu

        http://titli.bikingvikings.com

        The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • yajnesh shetty
        Hello Anant, For live fencing Caesalpinia bonducella(fever nut/gacchakaya/sagargota) is supposed to be very good.They claim that it forms an impenetrable
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Anant,
          For live fencing Caesalpinia bonducella(fever nut/gacchakaya/sagargota) is supposed to be very good.They claim that it forms an impenetrable barrier at 2 years if planted at  distances of 3 feet between each sapling or seed.
                                                                               Regards,
                                                                                   Yaj.



          Hi friends !



          Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135



          Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

          lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

          irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

          Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

          Eucalyptus.



          I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

          control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and



          stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

          live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.



          I request advice, suggestions from the group please.



          Thanks and regards.



          Anant Joglekar

          919423089706



          Sent with Best Compliments -

          Call me at-

          +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

          Post me at-

          Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

          Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001



          Meet me at-

          yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro



          BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC



          ________________________________

          From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...

          <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

          Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica



          Hi Vishu,



          I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like



          the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

          the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

          like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go



          by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of



          25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

          many years.



          Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

          http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you



          need any help I can provide that.



          Regards,

          Nandan



          --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...

          <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:



          From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

          Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM



          Dear All,



          Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use



          it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live



          mulch.



          I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in



          coffee plantation.



          --



          Vishu



          http://titli.bikingvikings.com



          The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • vivasayee vivasayee
          Hi Mr Anant ,Having association to natural farming ,As ucalyptus is non environment friendly never recommended as it has the capability to deplete the water
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Mr Anant ,Having association to natural farming ,As ucalyptus is non
            environment friendly never recommended as it has the capability to deplete
            the water source as linda explained detail about..There are many cash crops
            you could think of as 90 acres is huge impact to the surroundings ...

            If you want some thing to do for the environment and world ..think twice
            whether to have this plant in ur field irrespective of its unfriendly
            nature to environment ...

            Regards
            vivasayee

            On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>wrote:

            >
            >
            > Hi Anant,
            >
            > I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?
            >
            > I ask because eucalypts are known for �raping� a landscape � they destroy
            > the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in
            > their root zone and wherever the leaves land � I know this from personal
            > experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn�t
            > matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to
            > sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are
            > watering from above � impossible!
            >
            > Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are
            > 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes
            > more and more arid...
            >
            > Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for
            > building!
            >
            > For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or
            > hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep
            > out the cattle � but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow.
            > Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase
            > exponentially. I wouldn�t worry about weeds � most of them are GOOD and
            > bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the
            > topsoil as they die and decompose... it�s all in the mind!
            >
            > Do you have plenty of water year round � if so then you should be able to
            > get perennial crops growing under them � the ones next door here have
            > climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too �
            > they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an
            > acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild
            > animals and you will get food as well � all good! But they will grow faster
            > than the eucalypts and may smother them � not so good! If you plant them a
            > fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won�t add to
            > the soil though!
            >
            > Good luck, Linda
            >
            > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
            > fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>] On
            > Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
            > Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
            > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
            >
            > Hi friends !
            >
            > Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out
            > of 135
            > Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since
            > 1995.My
            > lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a
            > minor
            > irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop
            > within
            > Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
            > Eucalyptus.
            >
            > I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which
            > will
            > control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of
            > soil and
            > stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest
            > some
            > live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.
            >
            > I request advice, suggestions from the group please.
            >
            > Thanks and regards.
            >
            > Anant Joglekar
            > 919423089706
            >
            > Sent with Best Compliments -
            > Call me at-
            > +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
            > Post me at-
            > Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
            > Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001
            >
            > Meet me at-
            > yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro
            >
            > BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...<p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com><mailto:
            > p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com <p_k_nandanan%2540yahoo.com>> >
            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
            > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
            > Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
            > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
            >
            > Hi Vishu,
            >
            > I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks
            > like
            > the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown
            > in
            > the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will
            > look
            > like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this
            > will go
            > by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a
            > period of
            > 25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil
            > for so
            > many years.
            >
            > Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
            > http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur,
            > if you
            > need any help I can provide that.
            >
            > Regards,
            > Nandan
            >
            > --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...<magicblack%40gmail.com><mailto:
            > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> > wrote:
            >
            > From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:
            > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> >
            > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
            > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
            > Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM
            >
            > Dear All,
            >
            > Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use
            >
            > it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live
            >
            > mulch.
            >
            > I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in
            >
            > coffee plantation.
            >
            > --
            >
            > Vishu
            >
            > http://titli.bikingvikings.com
            >
            > The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nandan Palaparambil
            Recently visited santhosh farms in Pollachi which is 50 acres and has a mix of coconut, mango trees, teak and many more. He has used Palmyra palm tree as live
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Recently visited santhosh farms in Pollachi which is 50 acres and has a mix of coconut, mango trees, teak and many more.

              He has used Palmyra palm tree as live fence since he wanted to block elephants coming to farm from nearby forest.This tree is really strong and uprooting is not easy. I have seen people using Pathimukham (Caesalpenia sappan) which has thorns and has good medicinal values. I use gliricidia which gives lot of mulching material..

              Dr.Nammalvar is an expert in live fencing and you can contact him for guidance.



              Regards,
              Nandan

              --- On Fri, 12/3/10, vivasayee vivasayee <vivasayeee@...> wrote:

              From: vivasayee vivasayee <vivasayeee@...>
              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 8:25 PM

              Hi Mr Anant ,Having association to natural farming ,As ucalyptus is non
              environment friendly never recommended as it has the capability to deplete
              the water source as linda explained detail about..There are many cash crops
              you could think of as 90 acres is huge impact to the surroundings ...

              If you want some thing to do for the environment and world ..think twice
              whether to have this plant in ur field  irrespective of its unfriendly
              nature to environment ...

              Regards
              vivasayee

              On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>wrote:

              >
              >
              > Hi Anant,
              >
              > I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?
              >
              > I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy
              > the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in
              > their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal
              > experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t
              > matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to
              > sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are
              > watering from above – impossible!
              >
              > Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are
              > 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes
              > more and more arid...
              >
              > Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for
              > building!
              >
              > For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or
              > hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep
              > out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow.
              > Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase
              > exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and
              > bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the
              > topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!
              >
              > Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to
              > get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have
              > climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too –
              > they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an
              > acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild
              > animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster
              > than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a
              > fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to
              > the soil though!
              >
              > Good luck, Linda
              >
              > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
              > fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>] On
              > Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
              > Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
              > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
              > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
              >
              > Hi friends !
              >
              > Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out
              > of 135
              > Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since
              > 1995.My
              > lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a
              > minor
              > irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop
              > within
              > Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
              > Eucalyptus.
              >
              > I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which
              > will
              > control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of
              > soil and
              > stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest
              > some
              > live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.
              >
              > I request advice, suggestions from the group please.
              >
              > Thanks and regards.
              >
              > Anant Joglekar
              > 919423089706
              >
              > Sent with Best Compliments -
              > Call me at-
              > +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
              > Post me at-
              > Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
              > Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001
              >
              > Meet me at-
              > yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro
              >
              > BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...<p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com><mailto:
              > p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com <p_k_nandanan%2540yahoo.com>> >
              > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
              > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
              > Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
              > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
              >
              > Hi Vishu,
              >
              > I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks
              > like
              > the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown
              > in
              > the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will
              > look
              > like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this
              > will go
              > by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a
              > period of
              > 25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil
              > for so
              > many years.
              >
              > Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
              > http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur,
              > if you
              > need any help I can provide that.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Nandan
              >
              > --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...<magicblack%40gmail.com><mailto:
              > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> > wrote:
              >
              > From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:
              > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> >
              > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
              > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
              > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
              > Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM
              >
              > Dear All,
              >
              > Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use
              >
              > it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live
              >
              > mulch.
              >
              > I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in
              >
              > coffee plantation.
              >
              > --
              >
              > Vishu
              >
              > http://titli.bikingvikings.com
              >
              > The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links








              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nandan Palaparambil
              Linda, Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Linda,


                Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they
                are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
                becomes more and more arid...


                Is  Eucalypts spreading by its own or people are planting it? Does goverment do anything about spreading Eucalypts and acacias? Just eager how things work in your part of world.


                Regards,
                Nandan

                --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...> wrote:

                From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>
                Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 10:10 AM







                 









                Hi Anant,



                I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?



                I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above – impossible!



                Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more and more arid...



                Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!



                For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!



                Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!



                Good luck, Linda



                From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar

                Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM

                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

                Cc: Nandan Palaparambil

                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica



                Hi friends !



                Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135

                Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

                lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

                irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

                Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

                Eucalyptus.



                I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

                control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and

                stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

                live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.



                I request advice, suggestions from the group please.



                Thanks and regards.



                Anant Joglekar

                919423089706



                Sent with Best Compliments -

                Call me at-

                +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

                Post me at-

                Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

                Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001



                Meet me at-

                yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro



                BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC



                ________________________________

                From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@... <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica



                Hi Vishu,



                I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like

                the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

                the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

                like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go

                by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of

                25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

                many years.



                Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

                http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you

                need any help I can provide that.



                Regards,

                Nandan



                --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:



                From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM



                Dear All,



                Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use



                it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live



                mulch.



                I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in



                coffee plantation.



                --



                Vishu



                http://titli.bikingvikings.com



                The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Raju Titus
                Dear friend, All bio diversity provided by nature is Eco-friendly. In some cases mono-culture in man made jungles shows some problem can be solved by adding
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear friend,
                  All bio diversity provided by nature is Eco-friendly. In some cases
                  mono-culture in man made jungles shows some problem can be solved by adding
                  diversity. Subabul with Eucalyptus will solve problem if any.
                  Thanks
                  Raju

                  On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:25 PM, vivasayee vivasayee <vivasayeee@...>wrote:

                  > Hi Mr Anant ,Having association to natural farming ,As ucalyptus is non
                  > environment friendly never recommended as it has the capability to deplete
                  > the water source as linda explained detail about..There are many cash crops
                  > you could think of as 90 acres is huge impact to the surroundings ...
                  >
                  > If you want some thing to do for the environment and world ..think twice
                  > whether to have this plant in ur field irrespective of its unfriendly
                  > nature to environment ...
                  >
                  > Regards
                  > vivasayee
                  >
                  > On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...
                  > >wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hi Anant,
                  > >
                  > > I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?
                  > >
                  > > I ask because eucalypts are known for �raping� a landscape � they destroy
                  > > the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing
                  > in
                  > > their root zone and wherever the leaves land � I know this from personal
                  > > experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn�t
                  > > matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it
                  > to
                  > > sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you
                  > are
                  > > watering from above � impossible!
                  > >
                  > > Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are
                  > > 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
                  > becomes
                  > > more and more arid...
                  > >
                  > > Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for
                  > > building!
                  > >
                  > > For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry
                  > or
                  > > hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep
                  > > out the cattle � but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow.
                  > > Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase
                  > > exponentially. I wouldn�t worry about weeds � most of them are GOOD and
                  > > bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the
                  > > topsoil as they die and decompose... it�s all in the mind!
                  > >
                  > > Do you have plenty of water year round � if so then you should be able to
                  > > get perennial crops growing under them � the ones next door here have
                  > > climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well
                  > too �
                  > > they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from
                  > an
                  > > acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild
                  > > animals and you will get food as well � all good! But they will grow
                  > faster
                  > > than the eucalypts and may smother them � not so good! If you plant them
                  > a
                  > > fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won�t add to
                  > > the soil though!
                  > >
                  > > Good luck, Linda
                  > >
                  > > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com
                  > >[mailto:
                  > > fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                  > > Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
                  > > Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
                  > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
                  > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                  > >
                  > > Hi friends !
                  > >
                  > > Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out
                  > > of 135
                  > > Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since
                  > > 1995.My
                  > > lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a
                  > > minor
                  > > irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop
                  > > within
                  > > Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
                  > > Eucalyptus.
                  > >
                  > > I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which
                  > > will
                  > > control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of
                  > > soil and
                  > > stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest
                  > > some
                  > > live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.
                  > >
                  > > I request advice, suggestions from the group please.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks and regards.
                  > >
                  > > Anant Joglekar
                  > > 919423089706
                  > >
                  > > Sent with Best Compliments -
                  > > Call me at-
                  > > +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
                  > > Post me at-
                  > > Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
                  > > Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001
                  > >
                  > > Meet me at-
                  > > yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro
                  > >
                  > > BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...<p_k_nandanan%
                  > 40yahoo.com><mailto:
                  > > p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com <p_k_nandanan%2540yahoo.com>> >
                  > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com
                  > ><mailto:
                  > > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                  > > Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
                  > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                  > >
                  > > Hi Vishu,
                  > >
                  > > I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it
                  > looks
                  > > like
                  > > the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is
                  > grown
                  > > in
                  > > the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will
                  > > look
                  > > like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this
                  > > will go
                  > > by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a
                  > > period of
                  > > 25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil
                  > > for so
                  > > many years.
                  > >
                  > > Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
                  > > http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town
                  > Trichur,
                  > > if you
                  > > need any help I can provide that.
                  > >
                  > > Regards,
                  > > Nandan
                  > >
                  > > --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...<magicblack%
                  > 40gmail.com><mailto:
                  > > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <magicblack%40gmail.com>
                  > <mailto:
                  > > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> >
                  > > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                  > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com
                  > ><mailto:
                  > > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                  > > Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM
                  > >
                  > > Dear All,
                  > >
                  > > Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to
                  > use
                  > >
                  > > it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live
                  > >
                  > > mulch.
                  > >
                  > > I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in
                  > >
                  > > coffee plantation.
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > >
                  > > Vishu
                  > >
                  > > http://titli.bikingvikings.com
                  > >
                  > > The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it
                  > happens
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  Raju Titus. Hoshangabad. 461001.India.
                  +919179738049.
                  http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus<http://picasawebalbum.google.com/rajuktitus>
                  fukuoka_farming yahoogroup


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jason Stewart
                  Dear Nandan, and all, This is my natural heartfelt work all my life, my part of the world (too), Australia, especially Melbourne, far-east gippsland farming
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Nandan, and all,

                    This is my natural heartfelt work all my life, my part of the world (too),
                    Australia, especially Melbourne, far-east gippsland farming rural areas,
                    Victoria, Sydney, rural areas, NSW, ACT (Canberra & rural arras) and my
                    professional–natural–work for all and sundry (local state & federal gov't's,
                    voluntarily for communities including Aborigines' communities, companies,
                    farmers, landcare, bushcare, Royal Melb. Golf Club, etc.).
                    The authority & credibility, i have (without ego as best as i can), to say that
                    that is complete nonsense and must not get taken any further PLEASE! -quote:
                    "Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80%
                    (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia

                    becomes more and more arid..."

                    It's an extreme misrepresentation of ancient Australian geology, palaeobotany,
                    palynology and so on, poorly derived by Peter Andrews that i've read of his
                    writing, —evidently i understand this ancient Australian geology, palaeobotany,
                    palynology better than Peter Andrews does—i suppose because i have, in
                    privileges, been trained in it properly in University—
                    –deriving from taken completely out of context, 65 million (65,000,000) and more
                    years ago—Gondwanaland at the south pole— when Dinosaurs roamed the Earth and
                    most Angiosperm plants hadn't revolved yet (sensu late Mr.
                    Fukuoka<=evolved)—when the Himalaya's, according to geology, didnt exist yet,
                    and when India was not yet India but rather an subcontinent-sized island, north
                    of Antarctica, moving centimetres north per year towards continental Asia or
                    even, still part of the supercontinent Gondwanaland.
                    At this natural time plants, of what is now Australia, NZ, south America &
                    India, didn't include Eucalypts at all because they hadn't revolved yet (sensu
                    late Mr. Fukuoka<=evolved) at all.
                    The then ancestor species of all Eucalypts still grow today and are still found
                    today in the Wet Tropical Rainforests of far north Queenland, Australia & PNG –
                    most notably _Stockwellia_quadrifida_ (named after forester Mr. Stockwell).
                    Hence at that time 65,000,000 or more years ago the climate of the whole of our
                    Earth was very different, the continents (land masses) were not as they are
                    today, at all, and the plants and animals were not at all as they are today
                    (except for a very few botanically famous persisting species today like
                    Stockwellia, Wollemia, Araucaria, Agathis, Eucalyptopsis, few Protea-ancestors,
                    few Casuarina-ancestors, etc.)
                    As Australia (& India & NZ islands) broke into island–continents off from
                    Gondwanaland they very slowly moved northwards at varying rates of a few
                    centimetres per year. Multiply for example 5 cm by 65,000,000 years and you have
                    3250 km! As they moved towards the equator from the region of the south pole and
                    the Earth's climate changed through many revolutions, all over 65,000,000 years,
                    India came to smash into Asia pushing up the tallest mountain range in our
                    Earth, the Himalayas, creating the new headwaters of the sacred Ganges and many
                    more rivers. Australia moved slowly towards south-east Asia through the
                    Indian-Pacific ocean, into middle latitudes where the world over and in whatever
                    Earth climate they are known as relatively less rain-bearing latitudes from the
                    Earth-atmospheric circulation nature; Hence Australia is now known as "the
                    driest inhabited continent on Earth", about three-quarters by area-measurement
                    has an arid climate, naturally, since millions of years ago, which did lead to
                    the revolution (sensu late Mr. Fukuoka<=evolution) of Eucalypts and all the
                    non-rainforest floras around Australia, making up perhaps 20,000 species &
                    varieties of plants, which hadn't revolved=evolved as species yet at that time.
                    Hence also, as some human *cultures* and not others, have destroyed vegetation
                    en masse around our Earth over the last 13,000 years –eg.
                    Mediterranean-surrounding-cultures, some African-cultures–, these middle
                    latitudes in the northern and southern hemisphere's are the most vulnerable and
                    least quickly recovering from this vegetation destruction, so desert persists
                    longer, taking the longest to recover in these regions. Where in other regions
                    the moisture available from elsewhere like off oceans recovers the vegetation
                    more quickly.

                    You don't have to believe any of this science-based palaeo-history, but whatever
                    you believe about it, do not please believe interpretations of this science that
                    hack into incoherence (& in places racialist against Aborigines) by Peter
                    Andrews. The real sources the science, behind his science confusion, are there
                    in the original science writing for all to freely read.

                    etcetera
                    etcetera

                    /End of Gondwanaland history basics rushed-lesson.

                    Linda,
                    evidently you're way out of your depth on this subject, as evidently is Peter
                    Andrews, meanwhile as i'm, simply out of my depth, but can at least, roughly
                    relay the correct interpretation of many other scientists work, enough to
                    correct grossly unbalanced misinformation; to put this group back onto its topic
                    of healing our Earth rather than destroying it in the name of discriminating
                    falsely against Eucalypts. Eucalypts are natures lovely, in heart & practise,
                    trees & shrubs here in Oz in their more than 600 varieties.
                    Please read (available from the Libraries) the "Flora of Victoria [Australia]"
                    volume 1: Introductory volume with a Mr. Fukuoka slant on its science – and take
                    none of this rubbish advice part of his writing from Peter Andrews.
                    Please stop confusing people with fourth-hand poorly & emotively interpreted
                    nonsense.


                    Best wishes to all,

                    Jason Stewart


                    ________________________________
                    From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, December 4, 2010 3:31:16
                    Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts


                    Linda,

                    Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they
                    are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
                    becomes more and more arid...

                    Is Eucalypts spreading by its own or people are planting it? Does goverment do
                    anything about spreading Eucalypts and acacias? Just eager how things work in
                    your part of world.

                    Regards,
                    Nandan

                    --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...> wrote:

                    From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>
                    Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 10:10 AM



                    Hi Anant,

                    I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?

                    I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the
                    soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their
                    root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience
                    because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much
                    compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at
                    all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above –
                    impossible!

                    Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80%
                    (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more
                    and more arid...

                    Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!

                    For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or
                    hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out
                    the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you
                    have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I
                    wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from
                    the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and
                    decompose... it’s all in the mind!

                    Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get
                    perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like
                    honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the
                    bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above
                    them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get
                    food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may
                    smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the
                    trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!

                    Good luck, Linda

                    From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar

                    Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM

                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

                    Cc: Nandan Palaparambil

                    Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                    Hi friends !

                    Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135


                    Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

                    lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

                    irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

                    Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

                    Eucalyptus.

                    I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

                    control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and


                    stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

                    live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

                    I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

                    Thanks and regards.

                    Anant Joglekar

                    919423089706

                    Sent with Best Compliments -

                    Call me at-

                    +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

                    Post me at-

                    Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

                    Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                    Meet me at-

                    yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                    BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

                    ________________________________

                    From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...
                    <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                    Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

                    Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                    Hi Vishu,

                    I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like


                    the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

                    the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

                    like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go


                    by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of


                    25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

                    many years.

                    Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

                    http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you


                    need any help I can provide that.

                    Regards,

                    Nandan

                    --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...
                    <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

                    From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

                    Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                    Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

                    Dear All,

                    Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

                    it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

                    mulch.

                    I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

                    coffee plantation.

                    --

                    Vishu

                    http://titli.bikingvikings.com

                    The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Linda Shewan
                    Hi Nandan, Acacias regenerate from fire, (when planting seed you pour boiling water over the seeds to create the same stimulation for germination), while most
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Nandan,



                      Acacias regenerate from fire, (when planting seed you pour boiling water over the seeds to create the same stimulation for germination), while most other plants are simply killed by fire. So the fires that ravage the Australian landscape every summer are probably the biggest cause. Also the traditional aboriginal farming techniques of burning tracts of bushland and then allowing them to regrow actually stimulates the germination of these species above all others – this is not racist, just reality – although not all the land was burnt in this way, over the 40000 years of aboriginal management it would obviously have had some impact.



                      Eucalypts spread both by fire regeneration (the fire creates a seed bed where they are then able to colonise areas that were previously covered by grasses etc) and by major plantings both in plantations and as native regeneration projects. I have baby eucalypts come up every year in my back yard from seeds falling into either disturbed soil or tubs of potting mix. They don’t seem to germinate so easily in areas already occupied by grass or other vegetation that isn’t burnt off or bare for any other reason.



                      Here is an interesting report on eucalypts in California http://library.csustan.edu/bsantos/section3.htm - covers both for and against and gives good forestry practices if you choose to use them.

                      And another that really just condemns them... http://www.audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite0201.html



                      There are definitely pros and cons – and I absolutely love the eucalypts here, but I don’t feel the need to grow masses more of them as they are already very well represented. However in any native planting project, I definitely include them – I just try and add a lot of other flora for diversity as well.



                      Kind Regards, Linda







                      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nandan Palaparambil
                      Sent: Saturday, 4 December 2010 3:31 AM
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts





                      Linda,

                      Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they
                      are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
                      becomes more and more arid...

                      Is Eucalypts spreading by its own or people are planting it? Does goverment do anything about spreading Eucalypts and acacias? Just eager how things work in your part of world.

                      Regards,
                      Nandan

                      --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@... <mailto:linda_shewan%40yahoo.com.au> > wrote:

                      From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@... <mailto:linda_shewan%40yahoo.com.au> >
                      Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 10:10 AM



                      Hi Anant,

                      I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?

                      I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above – impossible!

                      Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more and more arid...

                      Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!

                      For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!

                      Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!

                      Good luck, Linda

                      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar

                      Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM

                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                      Cc: Nandan Palaparambil

                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                      Hi friends !

                      Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135

                      Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

                      lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

                      irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

                      Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

                      Eucalyptus.

                      I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

                      control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and

                      stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

                      live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

                      I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

                      Thanks and regards.

                      Anant Joglekar

                      919423089706

                      Sent with Best Compliments -

                      Call me at-

                      +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

                      Post me at-

                      Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

                      Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                      Meet me at-

                      yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                      BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

                      ________________________________

                      From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@... <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                      Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                      Hi Vishu,

                      I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like

                      the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

                      the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

                      like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go

                      by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of

                      25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

                      many years.

                      Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

                      http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you

                      need any help I can provide that.

                      Regards,

                      Nandan

                      --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

                      From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

                      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                      Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

                      Dear All,

                      Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

                      it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

                      mulch.

                      I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

                      coffee plantation.

                      --

                      Vishu

                      http://titli.bikingvikings.com

                      The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • greenie6666
                      Dear Friends: I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Friends:
                        I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus & Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India & recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems we discuss here.
                        Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt & read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm 18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown, they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants, then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has made them the dominant species.
                        Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest species were scorched & died.
                        Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
                        When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury ourselves deeper & deeper.
                        The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

                        Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India, as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut & have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].
                      • Jason Stewart
                        Dear all, and Norm, In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei s natural people , Norm you are depressingly–falsely tarring original natural
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear all, and Norm,

                          In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural people", Norm you
                          are depressingly–falsely 'tarring' original "natural people" with the tar-brush
                          of obviously–the–extreme–of–world–history examples of, my ancestors, greedy,
                          land–grabbing–stealing, destructive (to nature and self=all nature), invading,
                          grossly unsustainable, child–enslaving & African–enslaving–trading, historical
                          Western European & Middle Eastern peoples (as i wrote as the extreme example
                          peoples – often distinct as people speaking languages of the Indo-European
                          language family and the inventors of the only *extremely–expansionary* forms of
                          unsustainable agriculture)

                          One key scholarly reference example:
                          Harris, D. (2002). The expansion capacity of early agricultural systems: a
                          comparative perspective on the spread of agriculture.In P. Bellwood and C.
                          Renfrew eds,Examining the Farming/Language Dispersal Hypothesis, pp. 31–40.
                          Cambridge: McDonald Institute for Archaeological
                          Research.

                          -----------------------

                          In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural faming" "natural
                          people", Norm you are passing on lies by your writing "the Aborigines didn't
                          have any form of agriculture".


                          Scholarly References (i have and have read all these papers, and can supply them
                          if really needed):
                          *
                          Convincing Ground: Learning to Fall in love with your country

                          ________________________________

                          Bruce PASCOE
                          Availability: Print
                          Electronic Book Format: www.ebooks.com
                          April 2007, pb, 234x153mm, 304pp, b/w illus
                          RRP $39.95 incl. GST
                          ISBN 9780855755492
                          | Contents | Sample Chapter | Index | Reviews |





























                          -> http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/asp/aspbooks/convground.html


                          * Gammage, Bill 2003. Australia Under Aboriginal Management, 15th Barry Andrews
                          Memorial Lecture,
                          2002, Canberra: University College, University of NSW, Australian Defence Force
                          Academy.

                          * Denham, T.P. 2008. Traditional forms of plant exploitation in Australia and
                          New Guinea: the search for common ground. Vegetation History and
                          Archaeobotany 17: 245-8.
                          -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_TraditionalForms.pdf
                          -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/projects/wgp/TDenham_Project.html

                          * Gammage, Bill (2005), " '...far more happier than we Europeans': Aborigines
                          and farmers" (PDF), London Papers in Australian Studies (formerly Working Papers
                          in Australian Studies) (London: Menzies Centre for Australian Studies. King's
                          College. Each year the Centre publishes London Papers in Australian Studies .
                          These are representative of some of the most recent and exciting intellectual
                          work in Australian Studies.) (12): 1–27, ISSN 1746-1774, retrieved 2010-11-23
                          -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/content/1/c6/01/27/52/LPAS12BillGammage1.pdf
                          -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/schools/humanities/depts/menzies/research/pubs/lp

                          * Gammage, Bill 1986. Narrandera Shire Narrandera: Bill Gammage for the
                          Narrandera Shire Council.

                          * Denham, T., Donohue, M., & Booth, S. Horticultural experimentation in northern
                          Australia reconsidered. Antiquity No. 83
                          -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_etal_2009_Antiquity.pdf

                          * Gerritsen, R (2008). Australia and the origins of agricultureArchaeopress -
                          British Archaeological Reports Ltd

                          * Denham, T.P. and S. Mooney (2008). Human-environment interactions in Australia
                          and New Guinea during the Holocene. The Holocene 18(3): 373-9.

                          * Gott, Beth (1983) Murnong–Microseris scapigera: a study of a staple food of
                          Victorian Aborigines - Australian Aboriginal Studies

                          * Gott, Beth (1992) Koorie Plants, Koorie People: Traditional Aboriginal Food,
                          Fibre and Healing Plants of Victoria - Koorie Heritage Trust, Victoria,
                          Australia.

                          * Gott, Beth (2005) Aboriginal fire management in south‐eastern Australia: aims
                          and frequency - Journal of Biogeography, Wiley

                          * Gammage, Bill (2008) Plain facts: Tasmania under aboriginal management -
                          Landscape Research - Routledge
                          -> http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Gammagetasaborigsfires.pdf

                          * Gerritsen, R (2010). 'Evidence for indigenous Australian
                          agriculture',Australasian Science, vol. 31, no. 6, pp. 35-37.
                          -> http://www.australasianscience.com.au/article/issue-july-august-2010/evidence-indigenous-australian-agriculture.html


                          * Denham, T.P. 2007. Early agriculture: recent conceptual and methodological
                          developments. In T.P. Denham and P. White, eds, The emergence of agriculture: a
                          global view, pp. 1-25. London: Routledge.

                          * Denham, T.P. and J.P. White (eds.) (2007). The emergence of agriculture: a
                          global view One World Archaeology Reader, London: Routledge.

                          *Denham, T.P. J. Atchison, J. Austin, S. Bestel, D. Bowdery, A. Crowther, N.
                          Dolby, A. Fairbairn, J. Field, A. Kennedy, C. Lentfer, C. Matheson, S. Nugent,
                          J. Parr, M. Prebble, G. Robertson, J. Specht, R. Torrence, H. Barton, R.
                          Fullagar, S. Haberle, M. Horrocks, T. Lewis and P. Matthews (2009).
                          Archaeobotany in Australia and New Guinea: practice, potential and
                          prospects. Australian Archaeology (accepted December 2008).
                          -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/denham_etal_2009.pdf

                          * Denham, T.P., R. Fullagar and L. Head In press. Plant exploitation on Sahul:
                          from colonisation to the emergence of regional specialisation during the
                          Holocene. Quaternary International (accepted March 2008).

                          * Gott, Beth (2008) Indigenous use of plants in south-eastern
                          Australia - Telopea - rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au


                          Many more contemporary papers by Gott, Beth; Bill Gammage; Chase; Hynes & Chase;
                          etc..
                          Much more literature by early European Australians.


                          BTW:
                          * Beth Gott is an elder ethno-botanist from Monash University, Melbourne; was my
                          University lecturer there in 1990; and i continue to correspond with at times.
                          * Tim Denham is a scholar from Monash University, Melbourne
                          * Rupert Gerritsen is a self-funded scholar from here in Canberra attached to
                          the National Library of Australia, A Petherick reader; who i've met &
                          corresponded with a few times about all of this subject material


                          -----------------------

                          Do not get out your apparently triumphalist–Euro-centric–knives (please),
                          whether you know you are doing so or not,
                          to stab–in–the–back people in this sub–continent, who get called Aborigines.
                          It amazes me how you who obviously–evidently are way out of your depth of
                          detailed knowledge of this subject shoot your mouth of with unreferenced and
                          often unbalanced opinions, while the most scholarly people i personally know of
                          this subject, actively choose to say very circumspect statements about these
                          ancient, or 200 years ago history, or today continuing but severely dispossed,
                          subjects.
                          Not really reading, listening, to what i've written about this subject here for
                          up to 8 years and longer elsewhere, and to the extensively documented history of
                          this subject; I'm really tired of that, of you–kind–of–Ozzies, Norm & Peter, and
                          previously Adam & so on, not really reading, listening and so on to so many
                          saying this for so many years, on this subject—thousands of years of sustainable
                          nature farming in this continent, in the sense of the definition of late Mr.
                          Fukuoka Masanobu sensei.

                          It's great you've been to travelling in India. I want to hear a lot more stories
                          about that please.
                          But it is not necessary for this subject, learning this subject, to travel to
                          India.
                          The longest continuing nature farming traditions (in the sense of late Mr.
                          Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's definition by his principles) in our Earth, and still
                          continuing in some places in NSW, Australia, not so far from you Norm, like for
                          example with the Scuthorpe's family in N.W. NSW.
                          It's right before your eyes in the native Oz flora (& fauna) only waiting for
                          you to see and hear and smell and touch and 'aware' it AND EAT it!

                          Book Reference:

                          "Bush foods of New South Wales"

                          by Kathy Stewart & Bob Percival
                          (Royal Botanic Gardens, Sydney 1997).

                          -29 pages - many great photos - many great drawings-

                          -> http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/85542/Bushfoodsbook.pdf


                          Freeeeee!!! - I've paid money to buy many copies of it for friends over the
                          years.


                          An analogy reference:
                          "ON A GREEN MOUNTAIN - With Masanobu Fukuoka Sensei of Natural Farming
                          -Copyright (c) 1995 Jim Bones"
                          -> http://web.archive.org/web/20060413224615/www.seedballs.com/gmmfpa.html


                          ________________________________


                          In order now is, from
                          Historian, Teacher, Award winning writer of numerous book, short stories, poems
                          et. al., Editor, etc,
                          a truthful writing quote, for which plenty of scholarly and historical
                          documentation occurs in the public record and often by famous historical figures
                          like Mitchell, Sturt, etc.:
                          -> http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5858
                          "
                          Australians in denial ...
                          By Bruce Pascoe - posted Monday, 21 May 2007

                          Australia is a baby. An innocent baby, gurgling with good humour and wonder.
                          We've pulled the paper bag over our head and believe no-one can see us.

                          There we are, in the middle of the floor with a bag over our head. We refuse to
                          look back at our past and hope that with no effort on our part the future will
                          look after itself.

                          We live in a country with an incredible history but pretend it began in 1788.
                          The ancient past was not written so therefore it doesn't exist. The Aborigines
                          are primitive hunter gatherers who are migrants to the country just like us, so
                          really they had no more right to the land than we did. And we're better at it.


                          Oh, baby, pull off the bag, examine your land.

                          It is on the public record that Aboriginal people were not feckless and innocent
                          nomads but constructed complex housing; harvested grain, yams, eels, fish and
                          other produce with sophisticated feats of engineering; and created the first and
                          most enduring art, music and language in the world.

                          The social organisation looks amazingly like the first democracy, the first
                          modern state where art and dance were devoted more time than the procurement of
                          food.

                          We live in an incredible place but refuse to believe its history.

                          The eel aquaculture of the Western District of Victoria covers thousands of
                          hectares and involves hundreds of kilometres of stone walls, weirs and tunnels
                          burrowed through solid rock. The houses for these fishermen were set out in
                          large villages and some of them could accommodate 20 or more people. They are
                          like small town halls.

                          Grain was harvested in Queensland and from other grasslands: the fields of over
                          1,000 acres were carefully managed to maintain productivity. Settlers found this
                          grain stored in stone silos and intricately sewn, vermin proof skin bags. Often
                          the stored grain weighed over one tonne.

                          This is all on the public record in the first hand reports of Europeans. So why
                          do we maintain the myth of a crude civilisation meandering hopelessly across the
                          continent? Because we have to? Because to admit anything else defies our
                          perception of ownership and legitimacy, our own perception of how we took the
                          land?

                          We need to understand that there was a war in this country and the Indigenes
                          lost it but not before conducting battles which forced the Europeans back on
                          many fronts in the campaign. Aboriginal people did not just go away, disappear,
                          die out from exotic diseases - they were defeated in war. That war is on the
                          public record. The word “war” was used by our first governors and magistrates:
                          it is there for any Australian to read.

                          Of course it was unlike any other war we are familiar with because Aboriginal
                          people had lived within nation boundaries which remained the same over
                          thousands, probably tens of thousands, of years - their languages tell us this
                          because of the reference to ancient climatic and geological events. This country
                          is unique but we can't bring ourselves to admit it because we have to believe
                          the Indigenes walked away from it, left the field in awe of the marvellous
                          European.

                          I implore young Australians to undertake a scrutiny of the available material
                          and begin a negotiation with Aboriginal Australia, not about money but about our
                          shared history, our shared future and in celebration of this land we love, the
                          land we toast with cups of tea and Indigenous wine and beer

                          We love our country but have pulled the bag over our head pretending the world
                          can't see how we arrived

                          Young Australians please read your history, don't believe your elders' version
                          of events, most have got their head in a bag. You are young, intelligent,
                          hopeful, you have the rest of your lives ahead of you. Enjoy it, learn that you
                          live in a fabulous place where a civilisation developed which may yet teach us
                          crucial lessons about sustainability and civilised behaviour.

                          To understand our history is not an act of grand generosity but a bloody-minded
                          necessity. The alternative is to live with a bag over your head ... and baby,
                          it's dark in there.
                          "


                          Enough evidence said???


                          Biggest best wishes,

                          Jason
                          SE Oz.


                          ________________________________
                          From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
                          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:14:57
                          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts


                          Dear Friends:
                          I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in
                          India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus &
                          Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India &
                          recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the
                          end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very
                          impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems
                          we discuss here.
                          Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow
                          ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt &
                          read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I
                          have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm
                          18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their
                          abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown,
                          they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract
                          nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a
                          place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first
                          started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted
                          then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this
                          area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they
                          extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants,
                          then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of
                          their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves
                          retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The
                          smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or
                          think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most
                          Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular
                          fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has
                          made them the dominant species.
                          Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost
                          annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less
                          flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew
                          more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because
                          mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire
                          prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as
                          mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation
                          in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one
                          year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member
                          of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn
                          at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest
                          species were scorched & died.
                          Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of
                          us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying
                          that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the
                          Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to
                          manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is
                          said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time
                          into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that
                          deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved
                          into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people
                          inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has
                          had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic
                          if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose
                          back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with
                          us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are
                          supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we
                          consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for
                          what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of
                          natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
                          When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous
                          paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said
                          as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to
                          solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury
                          ourselves deeper & deeper.
                          The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of
                          Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of
                          these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me
                          that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future
                          in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar
                          to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more
                          than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to
                          that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases
                          these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach
                          maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

                          Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical
                          areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well
                          in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India,
                          as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large
                          bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might
                          be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the
                          early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them
                          before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in
                          the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type
                          legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see
                          the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut &
                          have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance
                          to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be
                          removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted
                          these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their
                          management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other
                          plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to
                          Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a
                          shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as
                          mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jason Stewart
                          Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei only talks–writes about re–Greening (in the sense of verdure) the world s man-made deserts – he spells this out in
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei only talks–writes about re–Greening (in the
                            sense of verdure) the world's man-made deserts – he spells this out in numerous
                            documents – simplistically the areas that humans have desertified, not the
                            natural deserts originating from nature-Great-Spirit-God-humans.
                            Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei does not throw out out pre-existing knowledge,
                            explicitly he explains that that is necessary to fix the problems created by
                            previous knowledge. It's better called by prexifing with the Japanese word: Mu
                            knowledge – meaning no knowledge (against or outside of nature) – meaning all
                            the credit for knowledge goes to nature and does not go to us as individuals –
                            no egocentric knowledge. In alignment with the terms like no-action (mu i)
                            (against nature) and no weeding by cultivation or herbicides (against nature),
                            etc. .

                            Are you going to 'grow' a nature farm in the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu
                            sensei in Antarctica?
                            No! (that's of course absurd).
                            Antarctica is, known as, the driest continent, on our Earth (essentially not
                            permanently inhabitated in the self-sustaining sense of the definition of
                            inhabited – Oz the driest inhabited continent)
                            Antarctica, frozen deserts, of course are natural! (since tens of millions of
                            years ago)

                            Australia, central Australia's, deserts, originate in nature, existing in
                            plentiful evidence since many millions of years ago, and many millions of years
                            before humans ever existed.
                            They are in constant flux (change) as is all nature, all the time. Expansion,
                            contraction, different plant and animal species coming and going over millions
                            of years, with many different shapes and sizes—forms—Protean.
                            Humbly, the first Australians in much-evidence tamed the
                            massive–continental–scale wild fires (lightning ignitions) by vastly reducing
                            the scale, intensity and damage of those massive–continental–scale wild fires to
                            human–scale patch burning the grassy vegetation types, and parts, not all, of
                            the the shrubby–heathy vegetation types at the time European people, my
                            ancestors, were invading with their colony (1770–88–).

                            Reference:
                            Bowman, David "Bushfires: A Darwinian Perspective"
                            in Geoffrey Cary, David Lindenmayer, Stephen Dovers (2003) Australia burning:
                            fire ecology, policy and management issues
                            CSIRO Publishing. 280 pp.

                            The Atacama desert, Chile is another natural desert from natural atmosphere &
                            ocean current circulations and rainshadow behind mountains.
                            Wikipedia quote:
                            "
                            The Atacama Desert is a virtually rainless plateau in South America, covering a
                            600-mile (1,000 km) strip of land on the Pacific coast of South America, west of
                            the Andes mountains. The Atacama desert is, according to NASA,National
                            Geographic and many other publications, the driest desert in the
                            world,[1][2][3] due to the rain shadow on theleeward side of the Chilean Coast
                            Range, as well as a coastal inversion layer created by the cold
                            offshore Humboldt Current.[4] The Atacama occupies 40,600 square miles (105,000
                            km2)[5] in northern Chile, composed mostly of saltbasins (salares), sand,
                            and felsic lava flows towards the Andes.
                            "

                            ________________________________
                            From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
                            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:14:57
                            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts


                            Dear Friends:
                            I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in
                            India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus &
                            Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India &
                            recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the
                            end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very
                            impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems
                            we discuss here.
                            Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow
                            ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt &
                            read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I
                            have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm
                            18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their
                            abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown,
                            they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract
                            nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a
                            place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first
                            started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted
                            then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this
                            area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they
                            extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants,
                            then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of
                            their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves
                            retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The
                            smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or
                            think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most
                            Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular
                            fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has
                            made them the dominant species.
                            Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost
                            annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less
                            flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew
                            more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because
                            mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire
                            prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as
                            mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation
                            in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one
                            year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member
                            of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn
                            at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest
                            species were scorched & died.
                            Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of
                            us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying
                            that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the
                            Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to
                            manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is
                            said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time
                            into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that
                            deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved
                            into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people
                            inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has
                            had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic
                            if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose
                            back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with
                            us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are
                            supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we
                            consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for
                            what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of
                            natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
                            When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous
                            paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said
                            as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to
                            solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury
                            ourselves deeper & deeper.
                            The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of
                            Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of
                            these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me
                            that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future
                            in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar
                            to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more
                            than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to
                            that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases
                            these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach
                            maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

                            Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical
                            areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well
                            in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India,
                            as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large
                            bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might
                            be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the
                            early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them
                            before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in
                            the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type
                            legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see
                            the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut &
                            have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance
                            to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be
                            removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted
                            these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their
                            management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other
                            plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to
                            Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a
                            shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as
                            mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Anant Joglekar
                            Hi Thank you very much for your email. My father ( Anant Joglekar ) is out of station till 10 December, 2010 He shall get back to you after coming back. Warm
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 5, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi

                              Thank you very much for your email.

                              My father ( Anant Joglekar ) is out of station till 10 December, 2010 He shall
                              get back to you after coming back.

                              Warm Regards

                              Shubhada Joglekar




                              Sent with Best Compliments -
                              Call me at-
                              +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
                              Post me at-
                              Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
                              Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                              Meet me at-
                              yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                              BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC





                              ________________________________
                              From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
                              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                              Cc: Anant Joglekar <apjoglekar@...>
                              Sent: Fri, 3 December, 2010 10:58:47 AM
                              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica


                              Dear Anant Joglekar,

                              Writing this from the land of the native Eucalypts (about 600 species native)
                              Australia, :) , i write:
                              Please list the names of any plants growing around the area there, any names you

                              have including Indian local common names, of any possible suitable plants such
                              as grasses, shrubs, legumes and spiny plants for the live fencing.

                              I have the name of Cockspur Thorn –botanical name:
                              "_Maclura_cochinchinensis_ (Lour.) Corner" of India and of Australia and China.
                              A very spiny woody big spreading shrub &/or vine, with edible ripe orange
                              fruits. It naturally grows in forests (dry & wet rainforests, & wet Eucalypt
                              forests) in warm temperate and subtropical south and eastern Australia (NSW &
                              QLD).

                              -> http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Cockspur%20Thorn.htmlMore photos

                              in Australia:

                              ->
                              http://plantnet.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/NSWfl.pl?page=nswfl&lvl=sp&name=Maclura~cochinchinensis->
                              http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/index.php?href=botanical&dir=botanical_pages&subpage=view&ext=php&array_place=13&item_id=533#image_533
                              3

                              (
                              http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/botanical_images/Maclura%20cochinchinensis%209.jpg
                              )

                              -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackdiamondimages/4205370259/in/photostream/
                              -> http://toowoombaplants2008.blogspot.com/2008/02/cockspur-thorn.html

                              ----------------------------------------------------------

                              Any leguminous nitrogen fixing species please list, we all may each have some
                              pieces of encouraging information about a list of your local species, if you
                              need to please ask local people and local farmers the local plant species.

                              Eucalypts (from Australia) can produce unusual environments underneath their
                              trees, from the leaf oils, and from the root symbiotic relationships, root
                              chemicals and environments made by the roots. Unusual elsewhere in the world.
                              Here in Australia there are many endemic species of plants long adapted growing
                              in these Eucalypt environments, above-ground and in the root zone (adapted
                              meaning revolved sensu Mr. Fukuoka instead of evolved sensu science, long
                              meaning over millions of years).

                              Best wishes to all,
                              Jase
                              (Jason Stewart)
                              south-eastern Australia

                              ________________________________
                              From: Anant Joglekar <apjoglekar@...>
                              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                              Cc: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                              Sent: Friday, December 3, 2010 12:45:18
                              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                              Hi friends !

                              Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135


                              Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My
                              lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor
                              irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within
                              Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
                              Eucalyptus.

                              I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will
                              control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and


                              stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some
                              live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

                              I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

                              Thanks and regards.

                              Anant Joglekar
                              919423089706

                              Sent with Best Compliments -
                              Call me at-
                              +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
                              Post me at-
                              Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
                              Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                              Meet me at-
                              yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                              BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

                              ________________________________
                              From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
                              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                              Hi Vishu,

                              I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like


                              the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in
                              the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look
                              like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go


                              by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of


                              25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so
                              many years.

                              Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
                              http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you


                              need any help I can provide that.

                              Regards,
                              Nandan

                              --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...> wrote:

                              From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...>
                              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

                              Dear All,

                              Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

                              it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

                              mulch.

                              I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

                              coffee plantation.

                              --

                              Vishu

                              http://titli.bikingvikings.com

                              The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

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                            • Nandan Palaparambil
                              Hi Norm, A couple of people (Rajuji, Kumaraswamy +??) have been reporting that green gram (moong dal) can be used instead of white clover. Also there has been
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 7, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Norm,

                                A couple of people (Rajuji, Kumaraswamy +??) have been reporting that green gram (moong dal) can be used instead of white clover. Also there has been a suggestion that cow pea also can be used..But I think this research has to be done in more fields and a working system like Fukuoka's style of paddy has to come up.

                                Please read Fukuoka san's statement on white clover in the following interview..

                                http://thepines.blogspot.com/2009/07/pines-i-notice-that-youre-drawing.html -

                                "Hmmm... my climate is totally unlike his, so rather than use white
                                clover, I'll try this other ground cover." That line of reasoning could
                                well take you off the track and lead you down a lot of blind alleys!
                                Clover is necessary to keep the weeds back and replenish the soil.



                                Regards,
                                Nandan

                                --- On Sun, 12/5/10, greenie6666 <normbeee@...> wrote:

                                From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
                                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts
                                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 4:44 AM







                                 









                                Dear Friends:

                                I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus & Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India & recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems we discuss here.

                                Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt & read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm 18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown, they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they extracted all available
                                moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants, then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has made them the dominant species.

                                Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest species were scorched & died.

                                Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose back into the earth, which
                                is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.

                                When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury ourselves deeper & deeper.

                                The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.



                                Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India, as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut & have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance to get away they
                                would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].

























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