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RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts

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  • Linda Shewan
    Hi Anant, I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area? I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 2, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Anant,



      I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?



      I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above – impossible!



      Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more and more arid...



      Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!



      For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!



      Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!





      Good luck, Linda





      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
      Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica





      Hi friends !

      Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135
      Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My
      lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor
      irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within
      Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
      Eucalyptus.

      I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will
      control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and
      stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some
      live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

      I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

      Thanks and regards.

      Anant Joglekar
      919423089706

      Sent with Best Compliments -
      Call me at-
      +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
      Post me at-
      Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
      Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

      Meet me at-
      yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

      BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

      ________________________________
      From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@... <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

      Hi Vishu,

      I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like
      the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in
      the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look
      like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go
      by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of
      25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so
      many years.

      Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
      http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you
      need any help I can provide that.

      Regards,
      Nandan

      --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

      From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >
      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

      Dear All,

      Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

      it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

      mulch.

      I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

      coffee plantation.

      --

      Vishu

      http://titli.bikingvikings.com

      The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jason Stewart
      Dear Anant Joglekar, Writing this from the land of the native Eucalypts (about 600 species native) Australia, :) , i write: Please list the names of any plants
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 2, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Anant Joglekar,

        Writing this from the land of the native Eucalypts (about 600 species native)
        Australia, :) , i write:
        Please list the names of any plants growing around the area there, any names you
        have including Indian local common names, of any possible suitable plants such
        as grasses, shrubs, legumes and spiny plants for the live fencing.

        I have the name of Cockspur Thorn –botanical name:
        "_Maclura_cochinchinensis_ (Lour.) Corner" of India and of Australia and China.
        A very spiny woody big spreading shrub &/or vine, with edible ripe orange
        fruits. It naturally grows in forests (dry & wet rainforests, & wet Eucalypt
        forests) in warm temperate and subtropical south and eastern Australia (NSW &
        QLD).

        -> http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Cockspur%20Thorn.htmlMore photos
        in Australia:

        -> http://plantnet.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/NSWfl.pl?page=nswfl&lvl=sp&name=Maclura~cochinchinensis-> http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/index.php?href=botanical&dir=botanical_pages&subpage=view&ext=php&array_place=13&item_id=533#image_533

        ( http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/botanical_images/Maclura%20cochinchinensis%209.jpg )

        -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackdiamondimages/4205370259/in/photostream/
        -> http://toowoombaplants2008.blogspot.com/2008/02/cockspur-thorn.html

        -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


        Any leguminous nitrogen fixing species please list, we all may each have some
        pieces of encouraging information about a list of your local species, if you
        need to please ask local people and local farmers the local plant species.

        Eucalypts (from Australia) can produce unusual environments underneath their
        trees, from the leaf oils, and from the root symbiotic relationships, root
        chemicals and environments made by the roots. Unusual elsewhere in the world.
        Here in Australia there are many endemic species of plants long adapted growing
        in these Eucalypt environments, above-ground and in the root zone (adapted
        meaning revolved sensu Mr. Fukuoka instead of evolved sensu science, long
        meaning over millions of years).


        Best wishes to all,
        Jase
        (Jason Stewart)
        south-eastern Australia



        ________________________________
        From: Anant Joglekar <apjoglekar@...>
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
        Sent: Friday, December 3, 2010 12:45:18
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica


        Hi friends !

        Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135

        Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My
        lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor
        irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within
        Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
        Eucalyptus.

        I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will
        control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and

        stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some
        live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

        I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

        Thanks and regards.

        Anant Joglekar
        919423089706

        Sent with Best Compliments -
        Call me at-
        +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
        Post me at-
        Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
        Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

        Meet me at-
        yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

        BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

        ________________________________
        From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

        Hi Vishu,

        I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like

        the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in
        the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look
        like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go

        by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of

        25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so
        many years.

        Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
        http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you

        need any help I can provide that.

        Regards,
        Nandan

        --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...> wrote:

        From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...>
        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

        Dear All,

        Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

        it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

        mulch.

        I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

        coffee plantation.

        --

        Vishu

        http://titli.bikingvikings.com

        The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jason Stewart
        Dear friend Linda, Peter Andrews half talks realistically (especially his great realisation writings about stream and half talks incoherent claptrap (i m not
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 2, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear friend Linda,

          Peter Andrews half talks realistically (especially his great realisation
          writings about stream and half talks incoherent claptrap (i'm not sure which of
          perceptions prejudices, ethnocentric-biases, emotions, feelings, plain errors or
          what).
          Popularity which he has, and appearance of credibility which latterly he now
          has, amongst many but far from all people, does not reality—make!
          We all humanly make errors, do sloppy work lacking rigour, we all err –anyone
          who says "humans are rational" is definitely irrational–
          We all have emotions feelings & perceptions, it depends what we do with our
          intellectual-side to our emotions to re-direct them and their energy into
          expression(s) which are beneficial to all, if not also perhaps-accidentally
          expressing so called rationality –much vaunted by Richard Dawkins whose memes
          work, for one of many examples, definitively is irrational.

          Futhermore, Linda this your wording cant sustain scrutiny: "eucalypts are known
          for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the soil, suck up ALL the water" – nor
          have you referenced. I'm happy if you merely qualify it as your feelings.
          Because it is not evidence based... .


          Best wishes to you & all,

          Jase
          Jason Stewart
          south-eastern Oz

          ________________________________
          From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, December 3, 2010 15:40:50
          Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts


          Hi Anant,

          I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?

          I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the
          soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their
          root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience
          because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much
          compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at
          all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above –
          impossible!

          Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80%
          (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more
          and more arid...

          Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!

          For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or
          hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out
          the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you
          have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I
          wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from
          the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and
          decompose... it’s all in the mind!

          Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get
          perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like
          honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the
          bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above
          them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get
          food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may
          smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the
          trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!

          Good luck, Linda

          From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
          Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

          Hi friends !

          Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135

          Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My
          lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor
          irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within
          Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
          Eucalyptus.

          I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will
          control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and

          stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some
          live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

          I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

          Thanks and regards.

          Anant Joglekar
          919423089706

          Sent with Best Compliments -
          Call me at-
          +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
          Post me at-
          Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
          Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

          Meet me at-
          yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

          BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

          ________________________________
          From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...
          <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

          Hi Vishu,

          I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like

          the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in
          the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look
          like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go

          by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of

          25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so
          many years.

          Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
          http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you

          need any help I can provide that.

          Regards,
          Nandan

          --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...
          <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

          From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >
          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

          Dear All,

          Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

          it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

          mulch.

          I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

          coffee plantation.

          --

          Vishu

          http://titli.bikingvikings.com

          The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • yajnesh shetty
          Hello Anant, For live fencing Caesalpinia bonducella(fever nut/gacchakaya/sagargota) is supposed to be very good.They claim that it forms an impenetrable
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Anant,
            For live fencing Caesalpinia bonducella(fever nut/gacchakaya/sagargota) is supposed to be very good.They claim that it forms an impenetrable barrier at 2 years if planted at  distances of 3 feet between each sapling or seed.
                                                                                 Regards,
                                                                                     Yaj.



            Hi friends !



            Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135



            Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

            lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

            irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

            Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

            Eucalyptus.



            I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

            control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and



            stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

            live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.



            I request advice, suggestions from the group please.



            Thanks and regards.



            Anant Joglekar

            919423089706



            Sent with Best Compliments -

            Call me at-

            +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

            Post me at-

            Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

            Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001



            Meet me at-

            yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro



            BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC



            ________________________________

            From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...

            <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

            Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica



            Hi Vishu,



            I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like



            the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

            the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

            like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go



            by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of



            25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

            many years.



            Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

            http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you



            need any help I can provide that.



            Regards,

            Nandan



            --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...

            <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:



            From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

            Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM



            Dear All,



            Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use



            it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live



            mulch.



            I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in



            coffee plantation.



            --



            Vishu



            http://titli.bikingvikings.com



            The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • vivasayee vivasayee
            Hi Mr Anant ,Having association to natural farming ,As ucalyptus is non environment friendly never recommended as it has the capability to deplete the water
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Mr Anant ,Having association to natural farming ,As ucalyptus is non
              environment friendly never recommended as it has the capability to deplete
              the water source as linda explained detail about..There are many cash crops
              you could think of as 90 acres is huge impact to the surroundings ...

              If you want some thing to do for the environment and world ..think twice
              whether to have this plant in ur field irrespective of its unfriendly
              nature to environment ...

              Regards
              vivasayee

              On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>wrote:

              >
              >
              > Hi Anant,
              >
              > I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?
              >
              > I ask because eucalypts are known for �raping� a landscape � they destroy
              > the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in
              > their root zone and wherever the leaves land � I know this from personal
              > experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn�t
              > matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to
              > sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are
              > watering from above � impossible!
              >
              > Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are
              > 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes
              > more and more arid...
              >
              > Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for
              > building!
              >
              > For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or
              > hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep
              > out the cattle � but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow.
              > Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase
              > exponentially. I wouldn�t worry about weeds � most of them are GOOD and
              > bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the
              > topsoil as they die and decompose... it�s all in the mind!
              >
              > Do you have plenty of water year round � if so then you should be able to
              > get perennial crops growing under them � the ones next door here have
              > climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too �
              > they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an
              > acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild
              > animals and you will get food as well � all good! But they will grow faster
              > than the eucalypts and may smother them � not so good! If you plant them a
              > fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won�t add to
              > the soil though!
              >
              > Good luck, Linda
              >
              > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
              > fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>] On
              > Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
              > Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
              > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
              > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
              >
              > Hi friends !
              >
              > Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out
              > of 135
              > Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since
              > 1995.My
              > lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a
              > minor
              > irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop
              > within
              > Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
              > Eucalyptus.
              >
              > I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which
              > will
              > control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of
              > soil and
              > stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest
              > some
              > live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.
              >
              > I request advice, suggestions from the group please.
              >
              > Thanks and regards.
              >
              > Anant Joglekar
              > 919423089706
              >
              > Sent with Best Compliments -
              > Call me at-
              > +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
              > Post me at-
              > Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
              > Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001
              >
              > Meet me at-
              > yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro
              >
              > BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...<p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com><mailto:
              > p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com <p_k_nandanan%2540yahoo.com>> >
              > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
              > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
              > Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
              > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
              >
              > Hi Vishu,
              >
              > I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks
              > like
              > the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown
              > in
              > the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will
              > look
              > like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this
              > will go
              > by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a
              > period of
              > 25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil
              > for so
              > many years.
              >
              > Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
              > http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur,
              > if you
              > need any help I can provide that.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Nandan
              >
              > --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...<magicblack%40gmail.com><mailto:
              > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> > wrote:
              >
              > From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:
              > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> >
              > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
              > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
              > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
              > Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM
              >
              > Dear All,
              >
              > Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use
              >
              > it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live
              >
              > mulch.
              >
              > I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in
              >
              > coffee plantation.
              >
              > --
              >
              > Vishu
              >
              > http://titli.bikingvikings.com
              >
              > The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nandan Palaparambil
              Recently visited santhosh farms in Pollachi which is 50 acres and has a mix of coconut, mango trees, teak and many more. He has used Palmyra palm tree as live
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Recently visited santhosh farms in Pollachi which is 50 acres and has a mix of coconut, mango trees, teak and many more.

                He has used Palmyra palm tree as live fence since he wanted to block elephants coming to farm from nearby forest.This tree is really strong and uprooting is not easy. I have seen people using Pathimukham (Caesalpenia sappan) which has thorns and has good medicinal values. I use gliricidia which gives lot of mulching material..

                Dr.Nammalvar is an expert in live fencing and you can contact him for guidance.



                Regards,
                Nandan

                --- On Fri, 12/3/10, vivasayee vivasayee <vivasayeee@...> wrote:

                From: vivasayee vivasayee <vivasayeee@...>
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 8:25 PM

                Hi Mr Anant ,Having association to natural farming ,As ucalyptus is non
                environment friendly never recommended as it has the capability to deplete
                the water source as linda explained detail about..There are many cash crops
                you could think of as 90 acres is huge impact to the surroundings ...

                If you want some thing to do for the environment and world ..think twice
                whether to have this plant in ur field  irrespective of its unfriendly
                nature to environment ...

                Regards
                vivasayee

                On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>wrote:

                >
                >
                > Hi Anant,
                >
                > I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?
                >
                > I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy
                > the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in
                > their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal
                > experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t
                > matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to
                > sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are
                > watering from above – impossible!
                >
                > Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are
                > 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes
                > more and more arid...
                >
                > Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for
                > building!
                >
                > For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or
                > hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep
                > out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow.
                > Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase
                > exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and
                > bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the
                > topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!
                >
                > Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to
                > get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have
                > climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too –
                > they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an
                > acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild
                > animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster
                > than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a
                > fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to
                > the soil though!
                >
                > Good luck, Linda
                >
                > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
                > fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                > Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
                > Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
                > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
                > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                >
                > Hi friends !
                >
                > Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out
                > of 135
                > Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since
                > 1995.My
                > lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a
                > minor
                > irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop
                > within
                > Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
                > Eucalyptus.
                >
                > I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which
                > will
                > control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of
                > soil and
                > stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest
                > some
                > live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.
                >
                > I request advice, suggestions from the group please.
                >
                > Thanks and regards.
                >
                > Anant Joglekar
                > 919423089706
                >
                > Sent with Best Compliments -
                > Call me at-
                > +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
                > Post me at-
                > Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
                > Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001
                >
                > Meet me at-
                > yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro
                >
                > BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...<p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com><mailto:
                > p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com <p_k_nandanan%2540yahoo.com>> >
                > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                > Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
                > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                >
                > Hi Vishu,
                >
                > I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks
                > like
                > the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown
                > in
                > the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will
                > look
                > like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this
                > will go
                > by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a
                > period of
                > 25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil
                > for so
                > many years.
                >
                > Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
                > http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur,
                > if you
                > need any help I can provide that.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Nandan
                >
                > --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...<magicblack%40gmail.com><mailto:
                > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> > wrote:
                >
                > From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:
                > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> >
                > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                > Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM
                >
                > Dear All,
                >
                > Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use
                >
                > it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live
                >
                > mulch.
                >
                > I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in
                >
                > coffee plantation.
                >
                > --
                >
                > Vishu
                >
                > http://titli.bikingvikings.com
                >
                > The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nandan Palaparambil
                Linda, Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Linda,


                  Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they
                  are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
                  becomes more and more arid...


                  Is  Eucalypts spreading by its own or people are planting it? Does goverment do anything about spreading Eucalypts and acacias? Just eager how things work in your part of world.


                  Regards,
                  Nandan

                  --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...> wrote:

                  From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>
                  Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 10:10 AM







                   









                  Hi Anant,



                  I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?



                  I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above – impossible!



                  Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more and more arid...



                  Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!



                  For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!



                  Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!



                  Good luck, Linda



                  From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar

                  Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM

                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

                  Cc: Nandan Palaparambil

                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica



                  Hi friends !



                  Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135

                  Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

                  lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

                  irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

                  Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

                  Eucalyptus.



                  I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

                  control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and

                  stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

                  live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.



                  I request advice, suggestions from the group please.



                  Thanks and regards.



                  Anant Joglekar

                  919423089706



                  Sent with Best Compliments -

                  Call me at-

                  +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

                  Post me at-

                  Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

                  Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001



                  Meet me at-

                  yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro



                  BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC



                  ________________________________

                  From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@... <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                  Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica



                  Hi Vishu,



                  I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like

                  the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

                  the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

                  like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go

                  by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of

                  25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

                  many years.



                  Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

                  http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you

                  need any help I can provide that.



                  Regards,

                  Nandan



                  --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:



                  From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                  Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM



                  Dear All,



                  Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use



                  it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live



                  mulch.



                  I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in



                  coffee plantation.



                  --



                  Vishu



                  http://titli.bikingvikings.com



                  The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Raju Titus
                  Dear friend, All bio diversity provided by nature is Eco-friendly. In some cases mono-culture in man made jungles shows some problem can be solved by adding
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear friend,
                    All bio diversity provided by nature is Eco-friendly. In some cases
                    mono-culture in man made jungles shows some problem can be solved by adding
                    diversity. Subabul with Eucalyptus will solve problem if any.
                    Thanks
                    Raju

                    On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:25 PM, vivasayee vivasayee <vivasayeee@...>wrote:

                    > Hi Mr Anant ,Having association to natural farming ,As ucalyptus is non
                    > environment friendly never recommended as it has the capability to deplete
                    > the water source as linda explained detail about..There are many cash crops
                    > you could think of as 90 acres is huge impact to the surroundings ...
                    >
                    > If you want some thing to do for the environment and world ..think twice
                    > whether to have this plant in ur field irrespective of its unfriendly
                    > nature to environment ...
                    >
                    > Regards
                    > vivasayee
                    >
                    > On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...
                    > >wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi Anant,
                    > >
                    > > I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?
                    > >
                    > > I ask because eucalypts are known for �raping� a landscape � they destroy
                    > > the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing
                    > in
                    > > their root zone and wherever the leaves land � I know this from personal
                    > > experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn�t
                    > > matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it
                    > to
                    > > sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you
                    > are
                    > > watering from above � impossible!
                    > >
                    > > Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are
                    > > 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
                    > becomes
                    > > more and more arid...
                    > >
                    > > Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for
                    > > building!
                    > >
                    > > For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry
                    > or
                    > > hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep
                    > > out the cattle � but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow.
                    > > Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase
                    > > exponentially. I wouldn�t worry about weeds � most of them are GOOD and
                    > > bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the
                    > > topsoil as they die and decompose... it�s all in the mind!
                    > >
                    > > Do you have plenty of water year round � if so then you should be able to
                    > > get perennial crops growing under them � the ones next door here have
                    > > climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well
                    > too �
                    > > they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from
                    > an
                    > > acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild
                    > > animals and you will get food as well � all good! But they will grow
                    > faster
                    > > than the eucalypts and may smother them � not so good! If you plant them
                    > a
                    > > fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won�t add to
                    > > the soil though!
                    > >
                    > > Good luck, Linda
                    > >
                    > > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com
                    > >[mailto:
                    > > fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                    > > Behalf Of Anant Joglekar
                    > > Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM
                    > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Cc: Nandan Palaparambil
                    > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                    > >
                    > > Hi friends !
                    > >
                    > > Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out
                    > > of 135
                    > > Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since
                    > > 1995.My
                    > > lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a
                    > > minor
                    > > irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop
                    > > within
                    > > Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
                    > > Eucalyptus.
                    > >
                    > > I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which
                    > > will
                    > > control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of
                    > > soil and
                    > > stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest
                    > > some
                    > > live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.
                    > >
                    > > I request advice, suggestions from the group please.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks and regards.
                    > >
                    > > Anant Joglekar
                    > > 919423089706
                    > >
                    > > Sent with Best Compliments -
                    > > Call me at-
                    > > +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
                    > > Post me at-
                    > > Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
                    > > Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001
                    > >
                    > > Meet me at-
                    > > yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro
                    > >
                    > > BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > > From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...<p_k_nandanan%
                    > 40yahoo.com><mailto:
                    > > p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com <p_k_nandanan%2540yahoo.com>> >
                    > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com
                    > ><mailto:
                    > > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                    > > Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
                    > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                    > >
                    > > Hi Vishu,
                    > >
                    > > I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it
                    > looks
                    > > like
                    > > the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is
                    > grown
                    > > in
                    > > the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will
                    > > look
                    > > like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this
                    > > will go
                    > > by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a
                    > > period of
                    > > 25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil
                    > > for so
                    > > many years.
                    > >
                    > > Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
                    > > http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town
                    > Trichur,
                    > > if you
                    > > need any help I can provide that.
                    > >
                    > > Regards,
                    > > Nandan
                    > >
                    > > --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...<magicblack%
                    > 40gmail.com><mailto:
                    > > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <magicblack%40gmail.com>
                    > <mailto:
                    > > magicblack%40gmail.com <magicblack%2540gmail.com>> >
                    > > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                    > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com
                    > ><mailto:
                    > > fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                    > > Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM
                    > >
                    > > Dear All,
                    > >
                    > > Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to
                    > use
                    > >
                    > > it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live
                    > >
                    > > mulch.
                    > >
                    > > I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in
                    > >
                    > > coffee plantation.
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > >
                    > > Vishu
                    > >
                    > > http://titli.bikingvikings.com
                    > >
                    > > The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it
                    > happens
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Raju Titus. Hoshangabad. 461001.India.
                    +919179738049.
                    http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus<http://picasawebalbum.google.com/rajuktitus>
                    fukuoka_farming yahoogroup


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jason Stewart
                    Dear Nandan, and all, This is my natural heartfelt work all my life, my part of the world (too), Australia, especially Melbourne, far-east gippsland farming
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Nandan, and all,

                      This is my natural heartfelt work all my life, my part of the world (too),
                      Australia, especially Melbourne, far-east gippsland farming rural areas,
                      Victoria, Sydney, rural areas, NSW, ACT (Canberra & rural arras) and my
                      professional–natural–work for all and sundry (local state & federal gov't's,
                      voluntarily for communities including Aborigines' communities, companies,
                      farmers, landcare, bushcare, Royal Melb. Golf Club, etc.).
                      The authority & credibility, i have (without ego as best as i can), to say that
                      that is complete nonsense and must not get taken any further PLEASE! -quote:
                      "Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80%
                      (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia

                      becomes more and more arid..."

                      It's an extreme misrepresentation of ancient Australian geology, palaeobotany,
                      palynology and so on, poorly derived by Peter Andrews that i've read of his
                      writing, —evidently i understand this ancient Australian geology, palaeobotany,
                      palynology better than Peter Andrews does—i suppose because i have, in
                      privileges, been trained in it properly in University—
                      –deriving from taken completely out of context, 65 million (65,000,000) and more
                      years ago—Gondwanaland at the south pole— when Dinosaurs roamed the Earth and
                      most Angiosperm plants hadn't revolved yet (sensu late Mr.
                      Fukuoka<=evolved)—when the Himalaya's, according to geology, didnt exist yet,
                      and when India was not yet India but rather an subcontinent-sized island, north
                      of Antarctica, moving centimetres north per year towards continental Asia or
                      even, still part of the supercontinent Gondwanaland.
                      At this natural time plants, of what is now Australia, NZ, south America &
                      India, didn't include Eucalypts at all because they hadn't revolved yet (sensu
                      late Mr. Fukuoka<=evolved) at all.
                      The then ancestor species of all Eucalypts still grow today and are still found
                      today in the Wet Tropical Rainforests of far north Queenland, Australia & PNG –
                      most notably _Stockwellia_quadrifida_ (named after forester Mr. Stockwell).
                      Hence at that time 65,000,000 or more years ago the climate of the whole of our
                      Earth was very different, the continents (land masses) were not as they are
                      today, at all, and the plants and animals were not at all as they are today
                      (except for a very few botanically famous persisting species today like
                      Stockwellia, Wollemia, Araucaria, Agathis, Eucalyptopsis, few Protea-ancestors,
                      few Casuarina-ancestors, etc.)
                      As Australia (& India & NZ islands) broke into island–continents off from
                      Gondwanaland they very slowly moved northwards at varying rates of a few
                      centimetres per year. Multiply for example 5 cm by 65,000,000 years and you have
                      3250 km! As they moved towards the equator from the region of the south pole and
                      the Earth's climate changed through many revolutions, all over 65,000,000 years,
                      India came to smash into Asia pushing up the tallest mountain range in our
                      Earth, the Himalayas, creating the new headwaters of the sacred Ganges and many
                      more rivers. Australia moved slowly towards south-east Asia through the
                      Indian-Pacific ocean, into middle latitudes where the world over and in whatever
                      Earth climate they are known as relatively less rain-bearing latitudes from the
                      Earth-atmospheric circulation nature; Hence Australia is now known as "the
                      driest inhabited continent on Earth", about three-quarters by area-measurement
                      has an arid climate, naturally, since millions of years ago, which did lead to
                      the revolution (sensu late Mr. Fukuoka<=evolution) of Eucalypts and all the
                      non-rainforest floras around Australia, making up perhaps 20,000 species &
                      varieties of plants, which hadn't revolved=evolved as species yet at that time.
                      Hence also, as some human *cultures* and not others, have destroyed vegetation
                      en masse around our Earth over the last 13,000 years –eg.
                      Mediterranean-surrounding-cultures, some African-cultures–, these middle
                      latitudes in the northern and southern hemisphere's are the most vulnerable and
                      least quickly recovering from this vegetation destruction, so desert persists
                      longer, taking the longest to recover in these regions. Where in other regions
                      the moisture available from elsewhere like off oceans recovers the vegetation
                      more quickly.

                      You don't have to believe any of this science-based palaeo-history, but whatever
                      you believe about it, do not please believe interpretations of this science that
                      hack into incoherence (& in places racialist against Aborigines) by Peter
                      Andrews. The real sources the science, behind his science confusion, are there
                      in the original science writing for all to freely read.

                      etcetera
                      etcetera

                      /End of Gondwanaland history basics rushed-lesson.

                      Linda,
                      evidently you're way out of your depth on this subject, as evidently is Peter
                      Andrews, meanwhile as i'm, simply out of my depth, but can at least, roughly
                      relay the correct interpretation of many other scientists work, enough to
                      correct grossly unbalanced misinformation; to put this group back onto its topic
                      of healing our Earth rather than destroying it in the name of discriminating
                      falsely against Eucalypts. Eucalypts are natures lovely, in heart & practise,
                      trees & shrubs here in Oz in their more than 600 varieties.
                      Please read (available from the Libraries) the "Flora of Victoria [Australia]"
                      volume 1: Introductory volume with a Mr. Fukuoka slant on its science – and take
                      none of this rubbish advice part of his writing from Peter Andrews.
                      Please stop confusing people with fourth-hand poorly & emotively interpreted
                      nonsense.


                      Best wishes to all,

                      Jason Stewart


                      ________________________________
                      From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, December 4, 2010 3:31:16
                      Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts


                      Linda,

                      Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they
                      are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
                      becomes more and more arid...

                      Is Eucalypts spreading by its own or people are planting it? Does goverment do
                      anything about spreading Eucalypts and acacias? Just eager how things work in
                      your part of world.

                      Regards,
                      Nandan

                      --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...> wrote:

                      From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>
                      Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 10:10 AM



                      Hi Anant,

                      I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?

                      I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the
                      soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their
                      root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience
                      because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much
                      compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at
                      all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above –
                      impossible!

                      Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80%
                      (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more
                      and more arid...

                      Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!

                      For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or
                      hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out
                      the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you
                      have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I
                      wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from
                      the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and
                      decompose... it’s all in the mind!

                      Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get
                      perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like
                      honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the
                      bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above
                      them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get
                      food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may
                      smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the
                      trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!

                      Good luck, Linda

                      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar

                      Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM

                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com

                      Cc: Nandan Palaparambil

                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                      Hi friends !

                      Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135


                      Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

                      lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

                      irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

                      Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

                      Eucalyptus.

                      I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

                      control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and


                      stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

                      live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

                      I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

                      Thanks and regards.

                      Anant Joglekar

                      919423089706

                      Sent with Best Compliments -

                      Call me at-

                      +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

                      Post me at-

                      Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

                      Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                      Meet me at-

                      yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                      BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

                      ________________________________

                      From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...
                      <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                      Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                      Hi Vishu,

                      I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like


                      the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

                      the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

                      like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go


                      by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of


                      25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

                      many years.

                      Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

                      http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you


                      need any help I can provide that.

                      Regards,

                      Nandan

                      --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...
                      <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

                      From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

                      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                      Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

                      Dear All,

                      Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

                      it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

                      mulch.

                      I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

                      coffee plantation.

                      --

                      Vishu

                      http://titli.bikingvikings.com

                      The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Linda Shewan
                      Hi Nandan, Acacias regenerate from fire, (when planting seed you pour boiling water over the seeds to create the same stimulation for germination), while most
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Nandan,



                        Acacias regenerate from fire, (when planting seed you pour boiling water over the seeds to create the same stimulation for germination), while most other plants are simply killed by fire. So the fires that ravage the Australian landscape every summer are probably the biggest cause. Also the traditional aboriginal farming techniques of burning tracts of bushland and then allowing them to regrow actually stimulates the germination of these species above all others – this is not racist, just reality – although not all the land was burnt in this way, over the 40000 years of aboriginal management it would obviously have had some impact.



                        Eucalypts spread both by fire regeneration (the fire creates a seed bed where they are then able to colonise areas that were previously covered by grasses etc) and by major plantings both in plantations and as native regeneration projects. I have baby eucalypts come up every year in my back yard from seeds falling into either disturbed soil or tubs of potting mix. They don’t seem to germinate so easily in areas already occupied by grass or other vegetation that isn’t burnt off or bare for any other reason.



                        Here is an interesting report on eucalypts in California http://library.csustan.edu/bsantos/section3.htm - covers both for and against and gives good forestry practices if you choose to use them.

                        And another that really just condemns them... http://www.audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite0201.html



                        There are definitely pros and cons – and I absolutely love the eucalypts here, but I don’t feel the need to grow masses more of them as they are already very well represented. However in any native planting project, I definitely include them – I just try and add a lot of other flora for diversity as well.



                        Kind Regards, Linda







                        From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nandan Palaparambil
                        Sent: Saturday, 4 December 2010 3:31 AM
                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts





                        Linda,

                        Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they
                        are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia
                        becomes more and more arid...

                        Is Eucalypts spreading by its own or people are planting it? Does goverment do anything about spreading Eucalypts and acacias? Just eager how things work in your part of world.

                        Regards,
                        Nandan

                        --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@... <mailto:linda_shewan%40yahoo.com.au> > wrote:

                        From: Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@... <mailto:linda_shewan%40yahoo.com.au> >
                        Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Eucalypts
                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 10:10 AM



                        Hi Anant,

                        I am interested in why you chose eucalypts? Are they native to your area?

                        I ask because eucalypts are known for ‘raping’ a landscape – they destroy the soil, suck up ALL the water and prohibit anything else from growing in their root zone and wherever the leaves land – I know this from personal experience because I have tried to garden close to them and it doesn’t matter how much compost or mulch you put on an area the eucalypts turn it to sand in no time at all... and it sucks all the water from below as you are watering from above – impossible!

                        Eucalypts and acacias used to be 20% of Australian flora and now they are 80% (according to Peter Andrews, not sure of his source) - Australia becomes more and more arid...

                        Just interested, I know they have their benefits too, particularly for building!

                        For live fencing you will want a really thick thorny hedge like barberry or hawthorn (or preferably a native equivalent) around the perimeter to keep out the cattle – but you will need to fence for a few years as they grow. Once you have fenced of course your options for cover crops increase exponentially. I wouldn’t worry about weeds – most of them are GOOD and bring up nutrients from the subsoil which then adds the nutrients to the topsoil as they die and decompose... it’s all in the mind!

                        Do you have plenty of water year round – if so then you should be able to get perennial crops growing under them – the ones next door here have climbers like honeysuckle around them and blackberries seem to do well too – they are at the bottom of a slope so get all the nutrient and water from an acre or so above them though... Blackberries will also deter the wild animals and you will get food as well – all good! But they will grow faster than the eucalypts and may smother them – not so good! If you plant them a fair distance away from the trees then they might work. They won’t add to the soil though!

                        Good luck, Linda

                        From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Anant Joglekar

                        Sent: Friday, 3 December 2010 12:45 PM

                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                        Cc: Nandan Palaparambil

                        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                        Hi friends !

                        Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135

                        Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My

                        lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor

                        irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within

                        Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage

                        Eucalyptus.

                        I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will

                        control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and

                        stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some

                        live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

                        I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

                        Thanks and regards.

                        Anant Joglekar

                        919423089706

                        Sent with Best Compliments -

                        Call me at-

                        +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724

                        Post me at-

                        Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose

                        Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                        Meet me at-

                        yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                        BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

                        ________________________________

                        From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@... <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> <mailto:p_k_nandanan%40yahoo.com> >

                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                        Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM

                        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                        Hi Vishu,

                        I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like

                        the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in

                        the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look

                        like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go

                        by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of

                        25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so

                        many years.

                        Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -

                        http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you

                        need any help I can provide that.

                        Regards,

                        Nandan

                        --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> > wrote:

                        From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@... <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> <mailto:magicblack%40gmail.com> >

                        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>

                        Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

                        Dear All,

                        Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

                        it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

                        mulch.

                        I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

                        coffee plantation.

                        --

                        Vishu

                        http://titli.bikingvikings.com

                        The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • greenie6666
                        Dear Friends: I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Friends:
                          I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus & Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India & recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems we discuss here.
                          Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt & read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm 18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown, they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants, then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has made them the dominant species.
                          Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest species were scorched & died.
                          Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
                          When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury ourselves deeper & deeper.
                          The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

                          Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India, as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut & have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].
                        • Jason Stewart
                          Dear all, and Norm, In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei s natural people , Norm you are depressingly–falsely tarring original natural
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
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                            Dear all, and Norm,

                            In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural people", Norm you
                            are depressingly–falsely 'tarring' original "natural people" with the tar-brush
                            of obviously–the–extreme–of–world–history examples of, my ancestors, greedy,
                            land–grabbing–stealing, destructive (to nature and self=all nature), invading,
                            grossly unsustainable, child–enslaving & African–enslaving–trading, historical
                            Western European & Middle Eastern peoples (as i wrote as the extreme example
                            peoples – often distinct as people speaking languages of the Indo-European
                            language family and the inventors of the only *extremely–expansionary* forms of
                            unsustainable agriculture)

                            One key scholarly reference example:
                            Harris, D. (2002). The expansion capacity of early agricultural systems: a
                            comparative perspective on the spread of agriculture.In P. Bellwood and C.
                            Renfrew eds,Examining the Farming/Language Dispersal Hypothesis, pp. 31–40.
                            Cambridge: McDonald Institute for Archaeological
                            Research.

                            -----------------------

                            In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural faming" "natural
                            people", Norm you are passing on lies by your writing "the Aborigines didn't
                            have any form of agriculture".


                            Scholarly References (i have and have read all these papers, and can supply them
                            if really needed):
                            *
                            Convincing Ground: Learning to Fall in love with your country

                            ________________________________

                            Bruce PASCOE
                            Availability: Print
                            Electronic Book Format: www.ebooks.com
                            April 2007, pb, 234x153mm, 304pp, b/w illus
                            RRP $39.95 incl. GST
                            ISBN 9780855755492
                            | Contents | Sample Chapter | Index | Reviews |





























                            -> http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/asp/aspbooks/convground.html


                            * Gammage, Bill 2003. Australia Under Aboriginal Management, 15th Barry Andrews
                            Memorial Lecture,
                            2002, Canberra: University College, University of NSW, Australian Defence Force
                            Academy.

                            * Denham, T.P. 2008. Traditional forms of plant exploitation in Australia and
                            New Guinea: the search for common ground. Vegetation History and
                            Archaeobotany 17: 245-8.
                            -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_TraditionalForms.pdf
                            -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/projects/wgp/TDenham_Project.html

                            * Gammage, Bill (2005), " '...far more happier than we Europeans': Aborigines
                            and farmers" (PDF), London Papers in Australian Studies (formerly Working Papers
                            in Australian Studies) (London: Menzies Centre for Australian Studies. King's
                            College. Each year the Centre publishes London Papers in Australian Studies .
                            These are representative of some of the most recent and exciting intellectual
                            work in Australian Studies.) (12): 1–27, ISSN 1746-1774, retrieved 2010-11-23
                            -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/content/1/c6/01/27/52/LPAS12BillGammage1.pdf
                            -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/schools/humanities/depts/menzies/research/pubs/lp

                            * Gammage, Bill 1986. Narrandera Shire Narrandera: Bill Gammage for the
                            Narrandera Shire Council.

                            * Denham, T., Donohue, M., & Booth, S. Horticultural experimentation in northern
                            Australia reconsidered. Antiquity No. 83
                            -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_etal_2009_Antiquity.pdf

                            * Gerritsen, R (2008). Australia and the origins of agricultureArchaeopress -
                            British Archaeological Reports Ltd

                            * Denham, T.P. and S. Mooney (2008). Human-environment interactions in Australia
                            and New Guinea during the Holocene. The Holocene 18(3): 373-9.

                            * Gott, Beth (1983) Murnong–Microseris scapigera: a study of a staple food of
                            Victorian Aborigines - Australian Aboriginal Studies

                            * Gott, Beth (1992) Koorie Plants, Koorie People: Traditional Aboriginal Food,
                            Fibre and Healing Plants of Victoria - Koorie Heritage Trust, Victoria,
                            Australia.

                            * Gott, Beth (2005) Aboriginal fire management in south‐eastern Australia: aims
                            and frequency - Journal of Biogeography, Wiley

                            * Gammage, Bill (2008) Plain facts: Tasmania under aboriginal management -
                            Landscape Research - Routledge
                            -> http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Gammagetasaborigsfires.pdf

                            * Gerritsen, R (2010). 'Evidence for indigenous Australian
                            agriculture',Australasian Science, vol. 31, no. 6, pp. 35-37.
                            -> http://www.australasianscience.com.au/article/issue-july-august-2010/evidence-indigenous-australian-agriculture.html


                            * Denham, T.P. 2007. Early agriculture: recent conceptual and methodological
                            developments. In T.P. Denham and P. White, eds, The emergence of agriculture: a
                            global view, pp. 1-25. London: Routledge.

                            * Denham, T.P. and J.P. White (eds.) (2007). The emergence of agriculture: a
                            global view One World Archaeology Reader, London: Routledge.

                            *Denham, T.P. J. Atchison, J. Austin, S. Bestel, D. Bowdery, A. Crowther, N.
                            Dolby, A. Fairbairn, J. Field, A. Kennedy, C. Lentfer, C. Matheson, S. Nugent,
                            J. Parr, M. Prebble, G. Robertson, J. Specht, R. Torrence, H. Barton, R.
                            Fullagar, S. Haberle, M. Horrocks, T. Lewis and P. Matthews (2009).
                            Archaeobotany in Australia and New Guinea: practice, potential and
                            prospects. Australian Archaeology (accepted December 2008).
                            -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/denham_etal_2009.pdf

                            * Denham, T.P., R. Fullagar and L. Head In press. Plant exploitation on Sahul:
                            from colonisation to the emergence of regional specialisation during the
                            Holocene. Quaternary International (accepted March 2008).

                            * Gott, Beth (2008) Indigenous use of plants in south-eastern
                            Australia - Telopea - rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au


                            Many more contemporary papers by Gott, Beth; Bill Gammage; Chase; Hynes & Chase;
                            etc..
                            Much more literature by early European Australians.


                            BTW:
                            * Beth Gott is an elder ethno-botanist from Monash University, Melbourne; was my
                            University lecturer there in 1990; and i continue to correspond with at times.
                            * Tim Denham is a scholar from Monash University, Melbourne
                            * Rupert Gerritsen is a self-funded scholar from here in Canberra attached to
                            the National Library of Australia, A Petherick reader; who i've met &
                            corresponded with a few times about all of this subject material


                            -----------------------

                            Do not get out your apparently triumphalist–Euro-centric–knives (please),
                            whether you know you are doing so or not,
                            to stab–in–the–back people in this sub–continent, who get called Aborigines.
                            It amazes me how you who obviously–evidently are way out of your depth of
                            detailed knowledge of this subject shoot your mouth of with unreferenced and
                            often unbalanced opinions, while the most scholarly people i personally know of
                            this subject, actively choose to say very circumspect statements about these
                            ancient, or 200 years ago history, or today continuing but severely dispossed,
                            subjects.
                            Not really reading, listening, to what i've written about this subject here for
                            up to 8 years and longer elsewhere, and to the extensively documented history of
                            this subject; I'm really tired of that, of you–kind–of–Ozzies, Norm & Peter, and
                            previously Adam & so on, not really reading, listening and so on to so many
                            saying this for so many years, on this subject—thousands of years of sustainable
                            nature farming in this continent, in the sense of the definition of late Mr.
                            Fukuoka Masanobu sensei.

                            It's great you've been to travelling in India. I want to hear a lot more stories
                            about that please.
                            But it is not necessary for this subject, learning this subject, to travel to
                            India.
                            The longest continuing nature farming traditions (in the sense of late Mr.
                            Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's definition by his principles) in our Earth, and still
                            continuing in some places in NSW, Australia, not so far from you Norm, like for
                            example with the Scuthorpe's family in N.W. NSW.
                            It's right before your eyes in the native Oz flora (& fauna) only waiting for
                            you to see and hear and smell and touch and 'aware' it AND EAT it!

                            Book Reference:

                            "Bush foods of New South Wales"

                            by Kathy Stewart & Bob Percival
                            (Royal Botanic Gardens, Sydney 1997).

                            -29 pages - many great photos - many great drawings-

                            -> http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/85542/Bushfoodsbook.pdf


                            Freeeeee!!! - I've paid money to buy many copies of it for friends over the
                            years.


                            An analogy reference:
                            "ON A GREEN MOUNTAIN - With Masanobu Fukuoka Sensei of Natural Farming
                            -Copyright (c) 1995 Jim Bones"
                            -> http://web.archive.org/web/20060413224615/www.seedballs.com/gmmfpa.html


                            ________________________________


                            In order now is, from
                            Historian, Teacher, Award winning writer of numerous book, short stories, poems
                            et. al., Editor, etc,
                            a truthful writing quote, for which plenty of scholarly and historical
                            documentation occurs in the public record and often by famous historical figures
                            like Mitchell, Sturt, etc.:
                            -> http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5858
                            "
                            Australians in denial ...
                            By Bruce Pascoe - posted Monday, 21 May 2007

                            Australia is a baby. An innocent baby, gurgling with good humour and wonder.
                            We've pulled the paper bag over our head and believe no-one can see us.

                            There we are, in the middle of the floor with a bag over our head. We refuse to
                            look back at our past and hope that with no effort on our part the future will
                            look after itself.

                            We live in a country with an incredible history but pretend it began in 1788.
                            The ancient past was not written so therefore it doesn't exist. The Aborigines
                            are primitive hunter gatherers who are migrants to the country just like us, so
                            really they had no more right to the land than we did. And we're better at it.


                            Oh, baby, pull off the bag, examine your land.

                            It is on the public record that Aboriginal people were not feckless and innocent
                            nomads but constructed complex housing; harvested grain, yams, eels, fish and
                            other produce with sophisticated feats of engineering; and created the first and
                            most enduring art, music and language in the world.

                            The social organisation looks amazingly like the first democracy, the first
                            modern state where art and dance were devoted more time than the procurement of
                            food.

                            We live in an incredible place but refuse to believe its history.

                            The eel aquaculture of the Western District of Victoria covers thousands of
                            hectares and involves hundreds of kilometres of stone walls, weirs and tunnels
                            burrowed through solid rock. The houses for these fishermen were set out in
                            large villages and some of them could accommodate 20 or more people. They are
                            like small town halls.

                            Grain was harvested in Queensland and from other grasslands: the fields of over
                            1,000 acres were carefully managed to maintain productivity. Settlers found this
                            grain stored in stone silos and intricately sewn, vermin proof skin bags. Often
                            the stored grain weighed over one tonne.

                            This is all on the public record in the first hand reports of Europeans. So why
                            do we maintain the myth of a crude civilisation meandering hopelessly across the
                            continent? Because we have to? Because to admit anything else defies our
                            perception of ownership and legitimacy, our own perception of how we took the
                            land?

                            We need to understand that there was a war in this country and the Indigenes
                            lost it but not before conducting battles which forced the Europeans back on
                            many fronts in the campaign. Aboriginal people did not just go away, disappear,
                            die out from exotic diseases - they were defeated in war. That war is on the
                            public record. The word “war” was used by our first governors and magistrates:
                            it is there for any Australian to read.

                            Of course it was unlike any other war we are familiar with because Aboriginal
                            people had lived within nation boundaries which remained the same over
                            thousands, probably tens of thousands, of years - their languages tell us this
                            because of the reference to ancient climatic and geological events. This country
                            is unique but we can't bring ourselves to admit it because we have to believe
                            the Indigenes walked away from it, left the field in awe of the marvellous
                            European.

                            I implore young Australians to undertake a scrutiny of the available material
                            and begin a negotiation with Aboriginal Australia, not about money but about our
                            shared history, our shared future and in celebration of this land we love, the
                            land we toast with cups of tea and Indigenous wine and beer

                            We love our country but have pulled the bag over our head pretending the world
                            can't see how we arrived

                            Young Australians please read your history, don't believe your elders' version
                            of events, most have got their head in a bag. You are young, intelligent,
                            hopeful, you have the rest of your lives ahead of you. Enjoy it, learn that you
                            live in a fabulous place where a civilisation developed which may yet teach us
                            crucial lessons about sustainability and civilised behaviour.

                            To understand our history is not an act of grand generosity but a bloody-minded
                            necessity. The alternative is to live with a bag over your head ... and baby,
                            it's dark in there.
                            "


                            Enough evidence said???


                            Biggest best wishes,

                            Jason
                            SE Oz.


                            ________________________________
                            From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
                            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:14:57
                            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts


                            Dear Friends:
                            I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in
                            India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus &
                            Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India &
                            recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the
                            end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very
                            impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems
                            we discuss here.
                            Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow
                            ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt &
                            read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I
                            have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm
                            18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their
                            abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown,
                            they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract
                            nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a
                            place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first
                            started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted
                            then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this
                            area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they
                            extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants,
                            then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of
                            their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves
                            retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The
                            smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or
                            think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most
                            Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular
                            fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has
                            made them the dominant species.
                            Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost
                            annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less
                            flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew
                            more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because
                            mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire
                            prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as
                            mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation
                            in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one
                            year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member
                            of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn
                            at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest
                            species were scorched & died.
                            Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of
                            us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying
                            that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the
                            Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to
                            manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is
                            said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time
                            into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that
                            deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved
                            into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people
                            inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has
                            had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic
                            if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose
                            back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with
                            us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are
                            supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we
                            consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for
                            what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of
                            natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
                            When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous
                            paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said
                            as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to
                            solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury
                            ourselves deeper & deeper.
                            The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of
                            Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of
                            these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me
                            that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future
                            in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar
                            to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more
                            than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to
                            that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases
                            these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach
                            maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

                            Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical
                            areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well
                            in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India,
                            as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large
                            bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might
                            be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the
                            early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them
                            before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in
                            the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type
                            legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see
                            the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut &
                            have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance
                            to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be
                            removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted
                            these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their
                            management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other
                            plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to
                            Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a
                            shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as
                            mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jason Stewart
                            Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei only talks–writes about re–Greening (in the sense of verdure) the world s man-made deserts – he spells this out in
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei only talks–writes about re–Greening (in the
                              sense of verdure) the world's man-made deserts – he spells this out in numerous
                              documents – simplistically the areas that humans have desertified, not the
                              natural deserts originating from nature-Great-Spirit-God-humans.
                              Late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei does not throw out out pre-existing knowledge,
                              explicitly he explains that that is necessary to fix the problems created by
                              previous knowledge. It's better called by prexifing with the Japanese word: Mu
                              knowledge – meaning no knowledge (against or outside of nature) – meaning all
                              the credit for knowledge goes to nature and does not go to us as individuals –
                              no egocentric knowledge. In alignment with the terms like no-action (mu i)
                              (against nature) and no weeding by cultivation or herbicides (against nature),
                              etc. .

                              Are you going to 'grow' a nature farm in the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu
                              sensei in Antarctica?
                              No! (that's of course absurd).
                              Antarctica is, known as, the driest continent, on our Earth (essentially not
                              permanently inhabitated in the self-sustaining sense of the definition of
                              inhabited – Oz the driest inhabited continent)
                              Antarctica, frozen deserts, of course are natural! (since tens of millions of
                              years ago)

                              Australia, central Australia's, deserts, originate in nature, existing in
                              plentiful evidence since many millions of years ago, and many millions of years
                              before humans ever existed.
                              They are in constant flux (change) as is all nature, all the time. Expansion,
                              contraction, different plant and animal species coming and going over millions
                              of years, with many different shapes and sizes—forms—Protean.
                              Humbly, the first Australians in much-evidence tamed the
                              massive–continental–scale wild fires (lightning ignitions) by vastly reducing
                              the scale, intensity and damage of those massive–continental–scale wild fires to
                              human–scale patch burning the grassy vegetation types, and parts, not all, of
                              the the shrubby–heathy vegetation types at the time European people, my
                              ancestors, were invading with their colony (1770–88–).

                              Reference:
                              Bowman, David "Bushfires: A Darwinian Perspective"
                              in Geoffrey Cary, David Lindenmayer, Stephen Dovers (2003) Australia burning:
                              fire ecology, policy and management issues
                              CSIRO Publishing. 280 pp.

                              The Atacama desert, Chile is another natural desert from natural atmosphere &
                              ocean current circulations and rainshadow behind mountains.
                              Wikipedia quote:
                              "
                              The Atacama Desert is a virtually rainless plateau in South America, covering a
                              600-mile (1,000 km) strip of land on the Pacific coast of South America, west of
                              the Andes mountains. The Atacama desert is, according to NASA,National
                              Geographic and many other publications, the driest desert in the
                              world,[1][2][3] due to the rain shadow on theleeward side of the Chilean Coast
                              Range, as well as a coastal inversion layer created by the cold
                              offshore Humboldt Current.[4] The Atacama occupies 40,600 square miles (105,000
                              km2)[5] in northern Chile, composed mostly of saltbasins (salares), sand,
                              and felsic lava flows towards the Andes.
                              "

                              ________________________________
                              From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
                              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:14:57
                              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts


                              Dear Friends:
                              I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in
                              India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus &
                              Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India &
                              recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the
                              end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very
                              impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems
                              we discuss here.
                              Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow
                              ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt &
                              read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I
                              have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm
                              18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their
                              abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown,
                              they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract
                              nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a
                              place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first
                              started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted
                              then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this
                              area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they
                              extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants,
                              then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of
                              their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves
                              retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The
                              smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or
                              think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most
                              Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular
                              fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has
                              made them the dominant species.
                              Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost
                              annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less
                              flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew
                              more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because
                              mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire
                              prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as
                              mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation
                              in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one
                              year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member
                              of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn
                              at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest
                              species were scorched & died.
                              Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of
                              us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying
                              that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the
                              Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to
                              manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is
                              said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time
                              into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that
                              deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved
                              into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people
                              inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has
                              had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic
                              if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose
                              back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with
                              us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are
                              supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we
                              consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for
                              what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of
                              natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
                              When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous
                              paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said
                              as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to
                              solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury
                              ourselves deeper & deeper.
                              The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of
                              Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of
                              these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me
                              that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future
                              in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar
                              to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more
                              than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to
                              that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases
                              these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach
                              maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

                              Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical
                              areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well
                              in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India,
                              as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large
                              bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might
                              be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the
                              early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them
                              before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in
                              the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type
                              legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see
                              the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut &
                              have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance
                              to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be
                              removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted
                              these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their
                              management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other
                              plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to
                              Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a
                              shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as
                              mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Anant Joglekar
                              Hi Thank you very much for your email. My father ( Anant Joglekar ) is out of station till 10 December, 2010 He shall get back to you after coming back. Warm
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 5, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi

                                Thank you very much for your email.

                                My father ( Anant Joglekar ) is out of station till 10 December, 2010 He shall
                                get back to you after coming back.

                                Warm Regards

                                Shubhada Joglekar




                                Sent with Best Compliments -
                                Call me at-
                                +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
                                Post me at-
                                Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
                                Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                                Meet me at-
                                yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                                BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC





                                ________________________________
                                From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
                                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                Cc: Anant Joglekar <apjoglekar@...>
                                Sent: Fri, 3 December, 2010 10:58:47 AM
                                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica


                                Dear Anant Joglekar,

                                Writing this from the land of the native Eucalypts (about 600 species native)
                                Australia, :) , i write:
                                Please list the names of any plants growing around the area there, any names you

                                have including Indian local common names, of any possible suitable plants such
                                as grasses, shrubs, legumes and spiny plants for the live fencing.

                                I have the name of Cockspur Thorn –botanical name:
                                "_Maclura_cochinchinensis_ (Lour.) Corner" of India and of Australia and China.
                                A very spiny woody big spreading shrub &/or vine, with edible ripe orange
                                fruits. It naturally grows in forests (dry & wet rainforests, & wet Eucalypt
                                forests) in warm temperate and subtropical south and eastern Australia (NSW &
                                QLD).

                                -> http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Cockspur%20Thorn.htmlMore photos

                                in Australia:

                                ->
                                http://plantnet.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/NSWfl.pl?page=nswfl&lvl=sp&name=Maclura~cochinchinensis->
                                http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/index.php?href=botanical&dir=botanical_pages&subpage=view&ext=php&array_place=13&item_id=533#image_533
                                3

                                (
                                http://www.rainforestpublishing.com.au/botanical_images/Maclura%20cochinchinensis%209.jpg
                                )

                                -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackdiamondimages/4205370259/in/photostream/
                                -> http://toowoombaplants2008.blogspot.com/2008/02/cockspur-thorn.html

                                ----------------------------------------------------------

                                Any leguminous nitrogen fixing species please list, we all may each have some
                                pieces of encouraging information about a list of your local species, if you
                                need to please ask local people and local farmers the local plant species.

                                Eucalypts (from Australia) can produce unusual environments underneath their
                                trees, from the leaf oils, and from the root symbiotic relationships, root
                                chemicals and environments made by the roots. Unusual elsewhere in the world.
                                Here in Australia there are many endemic species of plants long adapted growing
                                in these Eucalypt environments, above-ground and in the root zone (adapted
                                meaning revolved sensu Mr. Fukuoka instead of evolved sensu science, long
                                meaning over millions of years).

                                Best wishes to all,
                                Jase
                                (Jason Stewart)
                                south-eastern Australia

                                ________________________________
                                From: Anant Joglekar <apjoglekar@...>
                                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                Cc: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                                Sent: Friday, December 3, 2010 12:45:18
                                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                                Hi friends !

                                Last year in August,2009,I have planted Eucalyptus Clones in 90 Acres out of 135


                                Acres of my family holding which is a certified organic farm land since 1995.My
                                lands are surrounded by 300 hect. of dense forest , on the left bank of a minor
                                irrigation project. I take pigeon-pees ( Arhar / Tuvar ) as inter-crop within
                                Eucalyptus but wild animals and grazing cattle destroy it and also damage
                                Eucalyptus.

                                I need help/ advice/ suggestions for some multipurpose cover crop which will
                                control weeds, keep away wild and grazing animals , add to fertility of soil and


                                stays with eucalyptus as support or companion crop. Please also suggest some
                                live fencing strategy to protect boundaries.

                                I request advice, suggestions from the group please.

                                Thanks and regards.

                                Anant Joglekar
                                919423089706

                                Sent with Best Compliments -
                                Call me at-
                                +919423089706 / +917232245567 / +917232288724
                                Post me at-
                                Anant Joglekar, Secretary and C.E.O; Organic Linkage On-line Multipurpose
                                Organisation, 9,Patrakar Nagar, Yavatmal Maharashtra State, India 445001

                                Meet me at-
                                yahoo- apjoglekar / skype- orgagro / trade manager- orgagro

                                BE ORGANIC - BUY ORGANIC - LIVE ORGANIC

                                ________________________________
                                From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thu, 2 December, 2010 9:49:13 AM
                                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica

                                Hi Vishu,

                                I just searched for this 'Pueraria Javanica' and from the pictures it looks like


                                the one used as cover crops in rubber plantations in kerala. This is grown in
                                the initial stages of the rubber trees, and establishes quickly and will look
                                like a carpet. When the trees becomes bigger and shade establishes, this will go


                                by itself. One person recently told me, when the trees are cut after a period of


                                25 years (typically), they come back again, they just remain in the soil for so
                                many years.

                                Also came across the site, sure you also would have seen this -
                                http://www.covercrops.org This company is based in my home town Trichur, if you


                                need any help I can provide that.

                                Regards,
                                Nandan

                                --- On Wed, 12/1/10, Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...> wrote:

                                From: Vishu Shetty <magicblack@...>
                                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Pueraria Javanica
                                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:50 PM

                                Dear All,

                                Need information on buying seeds of *Pueraria Javanica* which I plan to use

                                it as a cover crop basically primarily to control Weed and also as live

                                mulch.

                                I am also seeking inputs on the *Pueraria Javanica* as a cover crop in

                                coffee plantation.

                                --

                                Vishu

                                http://titli.bikingvikings.com

                                The future enters into us, in order to transform us, long before it happens

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Nandan Palaparambil
                                Hi Norm, A couple of people (Rajuji, Kumaraswamy +??) have been reporting that green gram (moong dal) can be used instead of white clover. Also there has been
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 7, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Norm,

                                  A couple of people (Rajuji, Kumaraswamy +??) have been reporting that green gram (moong dal) can be used instead of white clover. Also there has been a suggestion that cow pea also can be used..But I think this research has to be done in more fields and a working system like Fukuoka's style of paddy has to come up.

                                  Please read Fukuoka san's statement on white clover in the following interview..

                                  http://thepines.blogspot.com/2009/07/pines-i-notice-that-youre-drawing.html -

                                  "Hmmm... my climate is totally unlike his, so rather than use white
                                  clover, I'll try this other ground cover." That line of reasoning could
                                  well take you off the track and lead you down a lot of blind alleys!
                                  Clover is necessary to keep the weeds back and replenish the soil.



                                  Regards,
                                  Nandan

                                  --- On Sun, 12/5/10, greenie6666 <normbeee@...> wrote:

                                  From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
                                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts
                                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 4:44 AM







                                   









                                  Dear Friends:

                                  I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus & Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India & recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems we discuss here.

                                  Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt & read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm 18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown, they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they extracted all available
                                  moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants, then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has made them the dominant species.

                                  Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest species were scorched & died.

                                  Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose back into the earth, which
                                  is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.

                                  When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury ourselves deeper & deeper.

                                  The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.



                                  Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India, as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut & have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance to get away they
                                  would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].

























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