Re: [fukuoka_farming] RE: Paddy farming experiment
- Hi all,
Just to close the loop on my experiment, here is the final update..
I harvested the paddy, just cut the heads alone with the sickle. This was quite
fine, since anyway I was planning to use the straw to mulch the field. This
reduced the effort of carrying back the straw back to the field. Threshed and
got around 3Kgs of paddy while I had sown around 1Kg.
We prepared some thing called 'Aval' in our local language (don't know the
english name for this), basically the rice gets pressed hard and becomes flat,
can mix with milk and eat. Taste is really good..
I am planning to do light tilling and try the paddy once but stil yet to find a
powe tiller for this. Another plan is to use a honda brush cutter and cut the
grass very low and flood it for 10 days so that the grass decay and then
transplant/broadcast the paddy. Will update all if any of this thing happens.
From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 12:39:15 PM
Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] RE: Paddy farming experiment
Apparently a popular quote attributed to Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi is: “What do
I think of Western civilisation? I think it would be a very good idea.”
From: Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>
Sent: Thu, 12 August, 2010 1:54:35 AM
Subject: [fukuoka_farming] RE: Paddy farming experiment
I presume you are taking some very powerful psychotic drugs. It's not fair to go
out on a loon and not share with others.
From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] On Behalf Of Jason
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:27 AM
To: Tom Gibson
Subject: Re: Paddy farming experiment
Gratuitously off-topic insubstantial trolling spam words; Lies; Words preying on
the modesty or humility or meek-politeness of our Indian friends; Your words are
so ignorantly-rude, disrespectful & presumptuous, according to my standards of
respect & communication in the English language; -Now i'm not *mincing* words
though, which is different to ignorant-disrespect words; I don't bow to
USAmerican intimidation with polite, sweet, corrections as Nandan did, and more
Indian friends do do so well here, I'm Ozzie and we can't cop-it-sweet by
upbringing, we talk turkey more so and are the equal or more than equal of the
USA; Jingoism like USAmerican's words 'the land of the free' doesn't wash with
us, we know it's rhetoric, and at best only pure relativism; We in Oz are more
'free', in rhetoric and relative-terms, than people in the USA-; No real serious
respect with Fukuoka Masanobu sensei as you haven't heeded his words about his
unflooded rice growing except a few days up to at most one week, nor really with
the person you where replying to, Nandan, nor now with me, brutally
misconstruing my politely purposefully written-private words to you - is it, as
it seems, just your insecurity about useless & inappropriately off topic
definitions (refer back to Fukuoka sensei's writting for example), and your now,
it seems, threatened about your*self*! A polite factual private warning. Ego
doesn't exist, an illusion, spawning any number of further illusions, as i work
on removing in my'self'. *Your* ad hominem words are a "classical logical
fallacy" in other words a philosophical error, because you do not answer my
direct question to you or answer the point questioning your experience with any
rice growing. Instead you vainly attempt to blame me for personally attacking
you. You're lucky i don't waste words to legitimately-attack you in my own
defense as there would much more harshness criticism than follows - "ad hominem"
An ad hominem, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), is an
attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the
person advocating the premise. The ad hominem is a classic logical
fallacy. The argumentum ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some
instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are
legitimate and relevant to the issue.
Common misconceptions about ad hominem
Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an argumentum ad hominem
or a logical fallacy. The fallacy only occurs if personal attacks
are employed instead of an argument to devalue an argument by attacking the
speaker, not personal insults in the middle of an otherwise sound argument or
insults that stand alone. "X's argument is invalid because X's analogy is false,
there are differences between a republic and a democracy. But then again, X is
idiotically ignorant." is gratuitously abusive but is not a fallacy because X's
argument is actually addressed directly in the opening statement. "X is
idiotically ignorant" is not a fallacy of itself. It is an argument that X
doesn't know the difference between a republic and a democracy.
This is not to be confused with a true fallacy, which would be "X is idiotically
ignorant [of politics], so why should we listen to him now?" If Y attacks X by
only calling X to be "just an ignorant twit", though insulting and abusive, it
is not a fallacy because it is not an argument. When an insult appears alone, it
cannot be a logical fallacy.
"In reality, ad hominem is unrelated to sarcasm or personal abuse. Argumentum ad
hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument
by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. The mere presence
of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the attack must be used for
the purpose of undermining the argument, or otherwise the logical fallacy isn't
there. It is not a logical fallacy to attack someone; the fallacy comes from
assuming that a personal attack is also necessarily an attack on that person's
arguments." BTW once again some of Bob Monie's previous writings here in this
group accusing me or others of ad hominem get dismissed and written off here by
mere wikipedia, as wrong, misconceived use the phrase "ad hominem" and hence at
a deeper level evidence Bob's wrong philosophically knowledge again.
Factually wrong overstatements about rice _Oryza_ genus with its many species,
which grow naturally in Asia, and PNG & Northern Australia.
Which, Oryza species, since thousands of years ago some have been domesticated,
including *upland or dryland* rice, and different varieties, wet paddy rice, as
Fukuoka Masanobu sensei writes about. Many people in the world have upland or
dryland rice growing. Fukuoka writes he had mixture-derived species evolved in
his farm of the mixture of some upland and wet rice varieties.
If i see fit & have time I will criticise you as an individual, and anyone else
individually clearly wrong in their evidence, or clearly wrong in their
motivation, in this group out of my own real-strong-respect for you, for me, for
all, and for the truth, as best as we humans can approach towards it.
There's no personal attack don't pretend to be a victim. I criticised your
mistaken words. I politely asked you a direct question, to put forward your
evidence or direct experience, which you still haven't answered; Instead you
read-into-my-writing meanings which i didn't write, and then now cowardly,
falsely accusing me of attacking you, within further wasteful, gratuitous and
cowardly further disrespectful posting of my private careful emails to you.
Now why should i continue politely with you, you're out of order with these
latest posts in this group.
I will not feel intimidated by you; Furthermore this group is not a forum for
even slightly advertising any of your commercial activities, given that Fukuoka
Masanobu sensei's philosophy is non-commercial, and we don't drive members to
your advertising on your website(s).
I've been active here in this group since early 2003.
I haven't fed my own family from a rice crop growing on my own land. I don't
give out advice on that. Have a rice crop of your own growing and then
respectfully relate your own experiences or else on the practice of rice growing
Fukuoka Masanobu sensei was recognised for his development of explicit (& dare i
say natural) philosophy, and in the 1970s successfully critiqued 'western'
philosophy, including Descartes, as do nowadays many 'westerners' themselves,
eg. Contemporary Frenchman Bruno Latour.
Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's work existed long before Permacult.ure, practised
since the 1940s or so, and his first book that i know of was published in 1972
(or perhaps one rare one decades earlier).
Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's work isn't a special case of Permacult.ure at all. If
you first found out about Fukuoka Masanobu sensei from advice from
PermaCult.uralists i'm sorry for you, that is trivial as a connection. I didn't.
If you did then i feel sorry for you, because n you shouldn't have to step
backwards, through Permacult.ure, to step forwards to get to learn of & from
Fukuoka Masanobu sensei.
Permacult.ure doesn't have any explicit philosophy of it's own, it explicitly
follows modern 'western' philosophy directly. Descartes was grossly wrong - say
This isn't a Permacult.ure group, don't pretend it is.
Evidently Bill Mollison, Permacult.ure co-originator & Toby Hemenway USA
PermaCulturalist revere Fukuoka in statements recorded (ie have stars in their
eyes about him); Fukuoka has/had no reason to revere any of them; Respect,
kindness, real appreciation, of course, -talking about Fukuoka Masanobu sensei
here-, of course he's kind, has compassion, with all life including them (but
he's no reason to revere them as they effectively or literally, respectively,
say they have reverence towards him), and as Larry Korn writes previously,
Fukuoka Masanobu sensei was very happy finding, in attending the 1980s
conferences in the USA, all the people who are interested in his work, including
the First-Americans and Permacult.uralists.
Do you speak Hindi perhaps Tom? What's a field called in Hindi, in which people
grow rice. Where your respect for the limitations and difficulty of translation
and of the difficulty of the English language itself, especially that the
English aren't an old rice growing culure hence there aren't any where near as
many words related to rice as there are in languages of rice growing peoples .
I'm not interested in your defensive nit picking, the point 'bleeds' with
obviousness! Our friends here who speak an Indian language or two or three as
their first languages need not suffer your uninformed pedantry without any thing
newly practical said by you towards their specific circumstances there in their
farms in India. I'm tired of reading you saying the same simplistic practical
points over and over in message after message. Through Permacult.ure you haven't
become the first person to hear of those points you repeatedly message here,
they're old worn simplistic points good in theory often not so in practice. Most
of the Permaculture students i've personally known well over thge last 20 years
come from their first course all fired up with knowledge that they're going to
save the world from their own garden outwards, but they understand nothing even
as they 'know' everything. The first lack of understanding necessarily follows
from that that they didn't understand that if it was just as easy as that new
knowledge they've just acquired to 'save the world' then it would have been done
before 1000s of years ago and more importantly continued ever since. Brutal
philosophical determination consisting of deep confusions to not practise those
ways of life that would 'save the
I research my subject before i write words, including the fact that i researched
you and your activities before i wrote private emails to you.
*If* as it seems, you see this group as weak and an opportunity ripe for
hijacking for selling PermaCult.ure, and detracting from Fukuoka Masanobu
sensei's personal philosophy as well as his implementation of his philosophy in
practice, you're tragically out of order, go away. Find your own place... .
Many of my words have in the past in this group have been
*gratuitously-censored* in the most *gratuitous-bias*, with no communication
with me seeking my side of the story, by the moderator, Stephen Canner from Sthn
USA; If this sort of gratuitous & perverted abuse *of me* doesn't get censored
in some sort of balanced way by the moderator, Stephen Canner, *then* corollary
abuse reports go out for each troll and for you Stephen Canner, and people will
leave including me for good -the gratuitous abuse typically has been by
USAmericans in my criticisms clearly not understanding their subject matter or
not understanding right-motivation, ever since extreme Tim Peter's & Bob Monie's
words in 2003-
Enough, more than, useless words said on this whole off-topic!
PS. so don't you know what Camas is, nor value it, Camas, for food? -as a
pleasant topic for discussion with me, given than you live in Camas the place
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Tom Gibson" <camaspermaculture@...>
>According to your above words you don't seem to have
> I donâ€™t believe personal attacks either on or off list are appropriate
>behavior. If you disagree with something I said then tell us all what you
>believe the facts are.
> If you are trying to make a point I am still waiting to hear it. Since you seem
>to be questioning the veracity of my information I provide you with this
>dictionary definition of a paddy:
> A specially irrigated or flooded field where rice is grown.
> This is clearly explained in â€œOne Straw Revolutionâ€.
> <http://www.camaspermaculture.org/> www.camaspermaculture.org
> From: Jason Stewart [mailto:macropneuma@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:01 PM
> To: Tom Gibson
> Subject: Re: Paddy farming experiment
> For more than 25 years in suburbia i've done professional gardening and more...
> How many years have you fed your own family from a rice crop growing on your
> From: Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>
> To: Jason <macropneuma@...>
> Sent: Wed, 11 August, 2010 10:45:41 AM
> Subject: RE: Paddy farming experiment
> What is spam?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:25 PM
> To: Tom Gibson
> Subject: Re:Paddy farming experiment
> --- In email@example.com, "Tom Gibson" <camaspermaculture@>
> > These pictures don't look like a paddy. A paddy is a field or terraced
> > side that is encircled by a berm to contain water. The paddy is filled
> > water several inches deep. Rice does need water to grow. It is planted in
> > water because it doesn't mind being flooded and the paddy is flooded to
> > suppress other plants while the rice gets established. Rice is not very
> > competitive and this gives it an advantage over most other plants.
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > I would recommend the use of livestock to clear and fertilize the field.
> > the grass has rhizomes, roots that run under the ground, then the best
> > animal would be pigs. I would enclose a small area at a time until they
> > destroy all the vegetation then keep moving them to a new piece of ground,
> > perhaps as often as once a day. Fukuoka used animals to clean up his
> > and it is a good idea to close this ecological loop this way.
> > Tom
> > <http://www.camaspermaculture.org/> www.camaspermaculture.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- Hi Jason,
Barking dogs don't bite.
Pass your way.
Like you I think we should talk of things we know, or keep it shut.
2011/10/6 Jason <macropneuma@...>
> **[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Obviously, you Mr. G are talking about yourself.
> Obviously to anyone of us who have checked our facts before opening our big
> Some facts I did naturallyâ€"forâ€"me check before writing:
> on: Paddy:
> -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy
> -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice#Harvesting.2C_drying_and_milling
> US Websters dictionary:
> -> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paddy
> -> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/paddy
> on: Mr. G's sorry story of military use of so called "psychotic drugs" â€"
> his sorry story "tale" of his own use of quote: "brown heroin" â€" an
> extremely psycho-active drug ('psychotic' is not entirely clear & correct
> English language usage referring to psycho-active drugs or to
> antiâ€"psychoticâ€"drugs, but Freud probably would have described use of
> that choice of words in that context, as a slip). August 2010:
> Quoting the relevant part from his above blog:
> Mr. G: "... Sometimes feeling good isnâ€™t so good for you, like the skin
> rush you get when snorting brown heroin, one of the hazards I was exposed to
> during my time in the U. S. Army. I survived that and lived to tell the
> Righted finally, and so so long ago over.
> PS. I cannot help but have compassion for and hence feel sorry for such
> clearly evidence sicknessâ€"perversity.
> PPS. I have people who know what they are talking about and who are not
> talking about themselves, clearly tell me and demonstrate evidence about me
> to me, that i am mentally very strong and healthy. Even if
> intentionallyâ€"vicious, malignant fighting attacks directed at my person
> result in me briefly feeling reactive depression (this is a healthy, normal
> reactive kind of response when brief). For you to be sure this reactive
> depression is largely because of sadness at the world situation having come
> to the stage where there can exist on a group with our kind of
> kindness/charity/compassionâ€"oriented subject, such clearly cynical,
> malicious, viciousâ€"fighting perversity and psychological projection â€"
> perhaps unconscious psychological projection.
> PPPS. Finito! å®Œæˆ ã ™ã‚‹!
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Tom Gibson" <camaspermaculture@...>
> ... [snipped it]