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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Paddy farming in weeds

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  • Chris Lumpkin
    Hello Nandan, The last sentence is the essence of the book, which I find to be more a book on the philosophy of natural farming than the actual practice. This
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 11, 2010
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      Hello Nandan,

      The last sentence is the essence of the book, which I find to be more a book
      on the philosophy of natural farming than the actual practice. This idea is
      very meaningful to me, so let me try to explain it. Fukuoka-sensei tried
      many different ideas to grow food in nature with as little interference as
      possible, and the methods he came to use were based on this philosophy:
      nature will produce healthy food without intervention. You may wish to help
      shape the ecology on your piece of land, but do not begin your journey by
      asking "what should I do?", rather ask "what should I NOT do?".

      In your situation, I would translate this advice as: try some different ways
      of replacing grass with paddy. Approach the task as a partner with nature.
      You may pull up grass and till, but be aware that you are disturbing the
      soil structure and nutrients. Maybe you could use "sheet mulching" technique
      to prepare some area for later use (this method is not immediate) or try
      cutting some grass short and free-sowing seed to see how well your crop
      grows in the natural environment. Be patient and observe the results of each
      method, and share this information with others in your climate and
      geography.

      I am currently moving in the same direction, replacing turf grass "lawn"
      with natural garden that requires no mowing and very little interference and
      provides food and enjoyment. *The Natural Way of Farming* may contain more
      of the practical information you are looking for, or some other natural
      farming or permaculture resources on the Internet. Good luck on your
      journey!

      ~Chris
      **

      On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Nandan <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      > My paddy field is around 60 cents and it has not been cultivated for the
      > last 2 years. Grass has been growing for the last 2 years and nothing was
      > done on the field. Grass is too thick and so cleared it completely and moved
      > it to one side and is planning to till it lightly and then start the
      > cultivation. The grass is piled up on one side and is planning to put some
      > cow dung so that it will decompose faster and then will spread it on the
      > field once again..
      >
      > While reading the one straw revolution, hit on the following statement ..
      >
      > "In making the transition to this kind of farming, some weeding, composting
      > or pruning may be necessary at first, but these measures should be gradually
      > reduced each year. Ultimately, it is not the growing technique which is the
      > most important factor, but rather the state of mind of the farmer"..
      >
      > the last sentence is not very clear here..
      >
      > Hope that next time, I may be able to avoid the tilling..Any data in terms
      > of time frame to get into complete no-till paddy farming?
      >
      > Regards,
      > Nandan
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Raju Titus
      Dear Nandan, I found that grass problem is directly related with tilling ,grazing, burning or cutting for animals. If you wont allow any one of this reason
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 11, 2010
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        Dear Nandan,
        I found that grass problem is directly related with tilling ,grazing,
        burning or cutting for animals. If you wont allow any one of this reason
        grass will go automatically .But will never go by tilling and composting
        rather will become more strong. Best way is mulching and growing alternative
        ground cover.
        Raju

        On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Nandan <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        > My paddy field is around 60 cents and it has not been cultivated for the
        > last 2 years. Grass has been growing for the last 2 years and nothing was
        > done on the field. Grass is too thick and so cleared it completely and moved
        > it to one side and is planning to till it lightly and then start the
        > cultivation. The grass is piled up on one side and is planning to put some
        > cow dung so that it will decompose faster and then will spread it on the
        > field once again..
        >
        > While reading the one straw revolution, hit on the following statement ..
        >
        > "In making the transition to this kind of farming, some weeding, composting
        > or pruning may be necessary at first, but these measures should be gradually
        > reduced each year. Ultimately, it is not the growing technique which is the
        > most important factor, but rather the state of mind of the farmer"..
        >
        > the last sentence is not very clear here..
        >
        > Hope that next time, I may be able to avoid the tilling..Any data in terms
        > of time frame to get into complete no-till paddy farming?
        >
        > Regards,
        > Nandan
        >
        >
        >



        --
        Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
        +919179738049.
        http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nandan Palaparambil
        Thanks Chris for the explanation.   I understand that Fukuoka san was able to produce food with little interference, but I am trying to get the initial
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 12, 2010
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          Thanks Chris for the explanation.
           
          I understand that Fukuoka san was able to produce food with little interference, but I am trying to get the initial struggles and since Fukuoka san himself tells that weeding, composting and pruning may be required in the initial days..
           
          Grass is thick so even if I cut, mulch but seeds may not touch the ground and hence may not germinate. Since it is grain and we have to plant in big numbers, individual managing of plants is not easy.
           
          At the same time in fruit trees, banana,tapioca, I am able to use no-till, just cut and mulch the weeds.
           
           
          Regards,
          Nandan

          --- On Fri, 6/11/10, Chris Lumpkin <clumpkin@...> wrote:


          From: Chris Lumpkin <clumpkin@...>
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Paddy farming in weeds
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 11:30 PM


           



          Hello Nandan,

          The last sentence is the essence of the book, which I find to be more a book
          on the philosophy of natural farming than the actual practice. This idea is
          very meaningful to me, so let me try to explain it. Fukuoka-sensei tried
          many different ideas to grow food in nature with as little interference as
          possible, and the methods he came to use were based on this philosophy:
          nature will produce healthy food without intervention. You may wish to help
          shape the ecology on your piece of land, but do not begin your journey by
          asking "what should I do?", rather ask "what should I NOT do?".

          In your situation, I would translate this advice as: try some different ways
          of replacing grass with paddy. Approach the task as a partner wit
          h nature.
          You may pull up grass and till, but be aware that you are disturbing the
          soil structure and nutrients. Maybe you could use "sheet mulching" technique
          to prepare some area for later use (this method is not immediate) or try
          cutting some grass short and free-sowing seed to see how well your crop
          grows in the natural environment. Be patient and observe the results of each
          method, and share this information with others in your climate and
          geography.

          I am currently moving in the same direction, replacing turf grass "lawn"
          with natural garden that requires no mowing and very little interference and
          provides food and enjoyment. *The Natural Way of Farming* may contain more
          of the practical information you are looking for, or some other natural
          farming or permaculture resources on the Internet. Good luck on your
          journey!

          ~Chris
          **

          On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Nandan <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          >
          > My paddy field is around 60 cents and it has not been cultivated for the
          > last 2 years. Grass has been growing for the last 2 years and nothing was
          > done on the field. Grass is too thick and so cleared it completely and moved
          > it to one side and is planning to till it lightly and then start the
          > cultivation. The grass is piled up on one side and is planning to put some
          > cow dung so that it will decompose faster and then will spread it on the
          > field once again..
          >
          > While reading the one straw revolution, hit on the following statement ..
          >
          > "In making the transition to this kind of farming, some weeding, composting
          > or pruning may be necessary at first, but these measures should be gradually
          > reduced each year. Ultimately, it is not the growing technique which is the
          > most important factor, but rather the state of mind of the farmer"..
          >
          > the last sentence is not very clear here..
          >
          > Hope that next time, I may be able to avoid the tilling..Any data in terms
          > of time frame to get into complete no-till paddy farming?
          >
          > Regards,
          > Nandan
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nandan Palaparambil
          Rajuji,   My intention is to reduce tilling (this was missing in Fukoka san s statement), weeding, composting gradually as mentioned by Fukuoka san.   If I
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 12, 2010
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            Rajuji,
             
            My intention is to reduce tilling (this was missing in Fukoka san's statement), weeding, composting gradually as mentioned by Fukuoka san.
             
            If I were able to get rid of these now, I would have saved around 1500/- rupees. But unfortunately I couldn't avoid tilling, weeding,composting this time, otherwise I may not have any food for the next reason.
             
             
            Regards,
            Nandan

            --- On Sat, 6/12/10, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:


            From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Paddy farming in weeds
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, June 12, 2010, 11:11 AM


            Dear Nandan,
            I found that grass problem is directly related with tilling ,grazing,
            burning or cutting for animals. If you wont allow any one of this reason
            grass will go automatically .But will never go by tilling and composting
            rather will become more strong. Best way is mulching and growing alternative
            ground cover.
            Raju

            On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Nandan <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            >
            > My paddy field is around 60 cents and it has not been cultivated for the
            > last 2 years. Grass has been growing for the last 2 years and nothing was
            > done on the field. Grass is too thick and so cleared it completely and moved
            > it to one side and is planning to till it lightly and then start the
            > cultivation. The grass is piled up on one side and is planning to put some
            > cow dung so that it will decompose faster and then will spread it on the
            > field once again..
            >
            > While reading the one straw revolution, hit on the following statement ..
            >
            > "In making the transition to this kind of farming, some weeding, composting
            > or pruning may be necessary at first, but these measures should be gradually
            > reduced each year. Ultimately, it is not the growing technique which is the
            > most important factor, but rather the state of mind of the farmer"..
            >
            > the last sentence is not very clear here..
            >
            > Hope that next time, I may be able to avoid the tilling..Any data in terms
            > of time frame to get into complete no-till paddy farming?
            >
            > Regards,
            > Nandan
            >

            >



            --
            Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
            +919179738049.
            http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tom Gibson
            To say your paddy is 60 cents is a non-sequiter. 60 cents is 6/10 of a dollar not something to do with land. What kind of grass is this that you are trying to
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 12, 2010
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              To say your paddy is 60 cents is a non-sequiter. 60 cents is 6/10 of a
              dollar not something to do with land.

              What kind of grass is this that you are trying to get rid of? Is this a
              low growing lawn grass or 8 foot tall jungle grass? Is it a knotty
              running grass with rhizomes that run underdround or does it only spread
              itself by seed? If the ground is hard then you might need to plow deeply
              to get a crop and release the fertility of the soil in which case I
              would have plowed the grass in and planted a cover crop immediately to
              suppress weed growth and provide additional organic matter.

              Moving from one type of cultivation to another is a transition process
              and the steps taken are unique to each site and clime. If you can flood
              your paddy at will, then flood it long enough to suppress weeds while
              rice is getting established but not long enough to kill clover or some
              other legume that is fixing nitrogen and suppressing weed growth. The
              goal is to keep something growing at all times so the organic material
              starts the natural soil building process which deposits organic matter
              on top of the soil, creating new soil, in a continuous process.

              The state of mind mentioned means to be aware of the natural tools at
              your disposal and use them to help you without fighting against the the
              way things are. If you have a lot of pests then it is because you grew a
              lot of pests. Try to understand how you did that if you wanted a
              different result.

              Make sure that you are building complete ecosystems. Remember that
              Fukuoka always employed animals to help keep the bugs and weeds down and
              to clean up the harvest so there was a more rapid breakdown of organic
              matter making planting and growing crops easier and more productive.

              Tom Gibson
              www.camaspermaculture.org <http://www.camaspermaculture.org>
              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Nandan" <p_k_nandanan@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > My paddy field is around 60 cents and it has not been cultivated for
              the last 2 years. Grass has been growing for the last 2 years and
              nothing was done on the field. Grass is too thick and so cleared it
              completely and moved it to one side and is planning to till it lightly
              and then start the cultivation. The grass is piled up on one side and is
              planning to put some cow dung so that it will decompose faster and then
              will spread it on the field once again..
              >
              > While reading the one straw revolution, hit on the following statement
              ..
              >
              > "In making the transition to this kind of farming, some weeding,
              composting or pruning may be necessary at first, but these measures
              should be gradually reduced each year. Ultimately, it is not the growing
              technique which is the most important factor, but rather the state of
              mind of the farmer"..
              >
              > the last sentence is not very clear here..
              >
              > Hope that next time, I may be able to avoid the tilling..Any data in
              terms of time frame to get into complete no-till paddy farming?
              >
              >
              >
              > Regards,
              > Nandan
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nandan Palaparambil
              In India cent is a measure of area, 100 cent being 1 acre, forgot that communicating with the global community...   This grass is a mixture of many
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 12, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                In India cent is a measure of area, 100 cent being 1 acre, forgot that communicating with the global community...
                 
                This grass is a mixture of many varieties...there is crab grass, touch-me-not and lot more..In two years of non-cultivation, nature started with some tree saplings also !!!
                 
                Under the grass I could see the ground is soft, so the grass growth has improved the land, but to start the cultivation, grass is a problem..
                 
                It is a news to me that Fukuoka san also used animals to keep the weeds down. This happened in this field also, once or twice some body let loose some sheep and the care taker person of my farm was telling me that helped to control the grass.
                 
                 
                Regards,
                Nandan
                 


                --- On Sat, 6/12/10, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...> wrote:


                From: Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>
                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Paddy farming in weeds
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, June 12, 2010, 8:49 PM


                 




                To say your paddy is 60 cents is a non-sequiter. 60 cents is 6/10 of a
                dollar not something to do with land.

                What kind of grass is this that you are trying to get rid of? Is this a
                low growing lawn grass or 8 foot tall jungle grass? Is it a knotty
                running grass with rhizomes that run underdround or does it only spread
                itself by seed? If the ground is hard then you might need to plow deeply
                to get a crop and release the fertility of the soil in which case I
                would have plowed the grass in and planted a cover crop immediately to
                suppress weed growth and provide additional organic matter.

                Moving from one type of cultivation to another is a transition process
                and the steps taken are unique to each site and clime. If you can flood
                your paddy at will, then flood it long enough to suppress weeds while
                rice is getting established but not long enough to kill clover or some
                other legume that is fixing nitrogen and suppressing weed growth. The
                goal is to keep something growing at all times so the organic material
                starts the natural soil building process which deposits organic matter
                on top of the soil, creating new soil, in a continuous process.

                The state of mind mentioned means to be aware of the natural tools at
                your disposal and use them to help you without fighting against the the
                way things are. If you have a lot of pests then it is because you grew a
                lot of pests. Try to understand how you did that if you wanted a
                different result.

                Make sure that you are building complete ecosystems. Remember that
                Fukuoka always employed animals to help keep the bugs and weeds down and
                to clean up the harvest so there was a more rapid breakdown of organic
                matter making planting and growing crops easier and more productive.

                Tom Gibson
                www.camaspermaculture.org <http://www.camaspermaculture.org>
                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Nandan" <p_k_nandanan@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > My paddy field is around 60 cents and it has not been cultivated for
                the last 2 years. Grass has been growing for the last 2 years and
                nothing was done on the field. Grass is too thick and so cleared it
                completely and moved it to one side and is planning to till it lightly
                and then start the cultivation. The grass is piled up on one side and is
                planning to put some cow dung so that it will decompose faster and then
                will spread it on the field once again..
                >
                > While reading the one straw revolution, hit on the following statement
                ..
                >
                > "In making the transition to this kind of farming, some weeding,
                composting or pruning may be necessary at first, but these measures
                should be gradually reduced each year. Ultimately, it is not the growing
                technique which is the most important factor, but rather the state of
                mind of the farmer"..
                >
                > the last sentence is not very clear here..
                >
                > Hope that next time, I may be able to avoid the tilling..Any data in
                terms of time frame to get into complete no-till paddy farming?
                >
                >
                >
                > Regards,
                > Nandan
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tom Gibson
                Sheep will all but kill the grass if left to overgraze. Tom www.camaspermaculture.org [Non-text portions of this message
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 15, 2010
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                  Sheep will all but kill the grass if left to overgraze.



                  Tom

                  <http://www.camaspermaculture.org/> www.camaspermaculture.org



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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