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Re: [fukuoka_farming] how to start no till farming.

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  • G. G. Hegde
    Dear Kumar, I don t think it was used for cattle grazing, you could see the attached pics in my previous mail. There is some bit of moisture, but as you
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 9, 2010
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      Dear Kumar,

      I don't think it was used for cattle grazing, you could see the attached
      pics in my previous mail. There is some bit of moisture, but as you
      mentioned there is no ground cover et all.

      I think at Honnavara, they sow rice in 2nd or 3rd week of June by then heavy
      rainfall would have started.

      Could you explain what you meant by "conventional method to seed sowing
      process".

      For drainage and boundary i am planning the trench around the land as any
      other form of fence would be expensive.

      thanks and regards,
      GG

      On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:45 PM, S K. KUMARASWAMY <
      skkumaraswamy@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Dear GG,
      > If farm has used for cattle grazing then sure it has been harden a lot.
      > Then it's not suitable for direct seeding. If you have sufficient ground
      > cover then direct seeding is possible. Without ground cover (like straw)
      > germination will be very less. For your situation Its better to use some
      > conventional method to seed sowing process. Make sure don't till at all
      > before sowing. For rice, methi (menthe soppu: Kannada) will be best
      > combination as a cover crop. Use local seed and for rice sowing season check
      > with local people. Your place is being in coastal zone you receive heavy
      > rain shower. Make proper drain trenches for water drain.
      > Regards
      > Kumarswamy
      >
      > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
      > fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>] On
      > Behalf Of G. G. Hegde
      > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:58 AM
      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] how to start no till farming.
      >
      >
      > Hi,
      >
      > I am back with some basic question. How do i start No till farming.
      >
      > Suppose i have a barren land that is not cultivated for years. The place is
      > clean but hard. This monsoon i want to start with growing Rice. What all i
      > should be prepared with. When should i start all these.
      >
      > Hope to get step-by-step instructions. I am sure this would be lots of
      > readers too.
      >
      > thanks and regards,
      > gg
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > www.bajajauto.com
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    • Tom Gibson
      No till farming isn t possible the first year unless there is something already growing on the land. Rice won t grow unless you can flood a containment for at
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 9, 2010
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        No till farming isn't possible the first year unless there is something
        already growing on the land. Rice won't grow unless you can flood a
        containment for at least six weeks at the start of the growth cycle but
        nothing is going to grow unless you can supply some kind of fertilizer.
        Natural farming uses animals to help decompose last season's crop and
        interplanting of beneficial plants like clover or other legumes that can
        help biomass and fertility by fixing nitrogen from the atmosphere. If
        nothing is growing on this land at all then I would employ a Fukuoka
        technique and colonize the plant population using seed balls, balls of mud
        and manure or compost with seeds inside, and cover the land with them before
        the next rain. Use a combination of plants that will support each other and
        start establishing colonies of plants and basic soil fertility by leaving
        organic matter on the ground and roots decaying in the ground. You can also
        plant rice in this way. Rice needs flooding mainly because it is a very weak
        plant in the first part of it's growth and doesn't compete well with weeds
        and other plants. Water suppresses the other plants and gives the rice a
        chance to outgrow other plants. Perennial clover can be encouraged to grow
        in the fields if it will survive your climate and just be submerged long
        enough to suppress but not kill the plant while the rice gets established.
        If you can't grow legumes on this land then you can grow forage crops or
        pasture for ruminants that will digest the pasture and add manure to the
        soil. As carbon and fertility increase in the soil then it is a healthier
        place for the animals and people.



        You can see what is going on in our food forest at
        <http://www.camaspermaculture.org> www.camaspermaculture.org
        <mailto:tom@...> tom@...
        Tom Gibson



        Why does Congress authorize the US Department of Agriculture to subsidize
        toxic industrial chemicals like HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) but not
        fresh vegetables? Nancy Pelosi took agricultural subsidy reform off the
        table so Democratic Party members from states that have large corporate
        agribusinesses can get re-elected (to keep representing large agribusiness
        concerns). Tell your Congressman and Senators that you aren't going to vote
        for them if they don't level the playing field for local, fresh, and
        nutrient dense foods





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G. G. Hegde
        Hi Tom, As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am still not clear how to start. Suggestion from various people is to start with a
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 11, 2010
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          Hi Tom,

          As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am still
          not clear how to start.
          Suggestion from various people is to start with a dicot over crop, mulch it
          in a month or so and then start with sowing rice seeds.
          Another suggestions was to start with Fenugreek and rice.

          I would have sufficient water as this area is heavy rainfall area. So there
          should not be any issue with flooding for some time, my issue would be to
          have proper trench to get away from flooding.

          Saw your pics, very nice. do you suggest to use the similar techniques fro
          bigger area ( 4 hectare)?.

          thanks and regards,
          GG

          On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>wrote:

          >
          >
          > No till farming isn't possible the first year unless there is something
          > already growing on the land. Rice won't grow unless you can flood a
          > containment for at least six weeks at the start of the growth cycle but
          > nothing is going to grow unless you can supply some kind of fertilizer.
          > Natural farming uses animals to help decompose last season's crop and
          > interplanting of beneficial plants like clover or other legumes that can
          > help biomass and fertility by fixing nitrogen from the atmosphere. If
          > nothing is growing on this land at all then I would employ a Fukuoka
          > technique and colonize the plant population using seed balls, balls of mud
          > and manure or compost with seeds inside, and cover the land with them
          > before
          > the next rain. Use a combination of plants that will support each other and
          > start establishing colonies of plants and basic soil fertility by leaving
          > organic matter on the ground and roots decaying in the ground. You can also
          > plant rice in this way. Rice needs flooding mainly because it is a very
          > weak
          > plant in the first part of it's growth and doesn't compete well with weeds
          > and other plants. Water suppresses the other plants and gives the rice a
          > chance to outgrow other plants. Perennial clover can be encouraged to grow
          > in the fields if it will survive your climate and just be submerged long
          > enough to suppress but not kill the plant while the rice gets established.
          > If you can't grow legumes on this land then you can grow forage crops or
          > pasture for ruminants that will digest the pasture and add manure to the
          > soil. As carbon and fertility increase in the soil then it is a healthier
          > place for the animals and people.
          >
          > You can see what is going on in our food forest at
          > <http://www.camaspermaculture.org> www.camaspermaculture.org
          > <mailto:tom@... <tom%40camaspermaculture.org>>
          > tom@... <tom%40camaspermaculture.org>
          > Tom Gibson
          >
          > Why does Congress authorize the US Department of Agriculture to subsidize
          > toxic industrial chemicals like HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) but not
          > fresh vegetables? Nancy Pelosi took agricultural subsidy reform off the
          > table so Democratic Party members from states that have large corporate
          > agribusinesses can get re-elected (to keep representing large agribusiness
          > concerns). Tell your Congressman and Senators that you aren't going to vote
          > for them if they don't level the playing field for local, fresh, and
          > nutrient dense foods
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tom Gibson
          Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and carbon in the
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 12, 2010
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            Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and carbon in the soil. 4 hectares is about 10 acres. I don't know what you have to work that much ground with but an acre is about as much as one person can do well by hand according to Elliot Coleman, author of "The New Organic Grower". That sounds about right and it might be too much to do well in the first year. Spreading yourself too thin and doing a poor job of managing your land will yield you less and create more problems than working an area very well. I would see the first year how well you do with 1/4 acre, about 100 feet square on each side. If you can do a good job of taking care of 1/4 acre you will get as good a yield as ten acres taken care of poorly.

            The big question is where are you starting with your base fertilization? You might consider using the cheapest chemical fertilizers the first few years then putting all the organic matter back in the ground. You will need less outside inputs every year and can stop using them once the soil fertility is better. Bring everything you can get for free that will help-fish or fish bones, manure from the side of the road, large piles of organic matter, etc. Just keep bringing whatever others throw away and your soil will be the richest in the area in a few years. Get animals to help you break organic matter down but don't let them be in any one place for too long. I would rather be a crazy man with rich soil than a saint living on soil that is dead and has no organic matter in it.

            Try different things as trials to see how they do but mark one area that you can easily get to every day and treat it as kindly as you would your children and spare it nothing.

            Tom

            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "G. G. Hegde" <gghegde@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Tom,
            >
            > As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am still
            > not clear how to start.
            > Suggestion from various people is to start with a dicot over crop, mulch it
            > in a month or so and then start with sowing rice seeds.
            > Another suggestions was to start with Fenugreek and rice.
            >
          • Raju Titus
            Dear friends, There is no relation between Natural soil strength and fertilizers. Unnatural fertilizers are unable to bring Natural soil health. Fertilizers
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 12, 2010
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              Dear friends,
              There is no relation between" Natural soil strength "and fertilizers.
              Unnatural fertilizers are unable to bring Natural soil health. Fertilizers
              known as "Orgenic" or Bio are also comes in the category of "Unnatural
              fertilizers".
              Thanks
              Raju

              On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 7:52 AM, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>wrote:

              >
              >
              > Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The
              > goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and
              > carbon in the soil. 4 hectares is about 10 acres. I don't know what you have
              > to work that much ground with but an acre is about as much as one person can
              > do well by hand according to Elliot Coleman, author of "The New Organic
              > Grower". That sounds about right and it might be too much to do well in the
              > first year. Spreading yourself too thin and doing a poor job of managing
              > your land will yield you less and create more problems than working an area
              > very well. I would see the first year how well you do with 1/4 acre, about
              > 100 feet square on each side. If you can do a good job of taking care of 1/4
              > acre you will get as good a yield as ten acres taken care of poorly.
              >
              > The big question is where are you starting with your base fertilization?
              > You might consider using the cheapest chemical fertilizers the first few
              > years then putting all the organic matter back in the ground. You will need
              > less outside inputs every year and can stop using them once the soil
              > fertility is better. Bring everything you can get for free that will
              > help-fish or fish bones, manure from the side of the road, large piles of
              > organic matter, etc. Just keep bringing whatever others throw away and your
              > soil will be the richest in the area in a few years. Get animals to help you
              > break organic matter down but don't let them be in any one place for too
              > long. I would rather be a crazy man with rich soil than a saint living on
              > soil that is dead and has no organic matter in it.
              >
              > Try different things as trials to see how they do but mark one area that
              > you can easily get to every day and treat it as kindly as you would your
              > children and spare it nothing.
              >
              > Tom
              >
              >
              > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > "G. G. Hegde" <gghegde@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Tom,
              > >
              > > As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am
              > still
              > > not clear how to start.
              > > Suggestion from various people is to start with a dicot over crop, mulch
              > it
              > > in a month or so and then start with sowing rice seeds.
              > > Another suggestions was to start with Fenugreek and rice.
              > >
              >
              >
              >



              --
              Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
              +919179738049.
              http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • G. G. Hegde
              My reply inline. This is how I am thinking, need correction/recommendation from experts. ... really get any good crop but to ensure the whole area is covered,
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 13, 2010
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                My reply inline. This is how I am thinking, need correction/recommendation
                from experts.

                > Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The
                > goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and
                > carbon in the soil. 4 hectares is about 10 acres. I don't know what you have
                > to work that much ground with but an acre is about as much as one person can
                > do well by hand according to Elliot Coleman, author of "The New Organic
                > Grower". That sounds about right and it might be too much to do well in the
                > first year. Spreading yourself too thin and doing a poor job of managing
                > your land will yield you less and create more problems than working an area
                > very well. I would see the first year how well you do with 1/4 acre, about
                > 100 feet square on each side. If you can do a good job of taking care of 1/4
                > acre you will get as good a yield as ten acres taken care of poorly.
                >
                > My idea here including the whole area instead of say 1 acre was not to
                really get any good crop but to ensure the whole area is covered, this could
                be used as mulch for next harvest. I am ok even to have rice and Fenugreek
                just cover the area and grow without even giving me any returns, though i
                have not really calculated the economics to having the whole crop fail, but
                produce the biomass that would be good enough to start the winter crop. All
                my family experience is in growing areaca/coconut and little bit to paddy
                with no chemicals, and no till is definitely a experiment and way going
                forward.

                > The big question is where are you starting with your base fertilization?
                > You might consider using the cheapest chemical fertilizers the first few
                > years then putting all the organic matter back in the ground. You will need
                > less outside inputs every year and can stop using them once the soil
                > fertility is better. Bring everything you can get for free that will
                > help-fish or fish bones, manure from the side of the road, large piles of
                > organic matter, etc. Just keep bringing whatever others throw away and your
                > soil will be the richest in the area in a few years. Get animals to help you
                > break organic matter down but don't let them be in any one place for too
                > long. I would rather be a crazy man with rich soil than a saint living on
                > soil that is dead and has no organic matter in it.
                >
                My base fertilizer would be this crop itself, even otherwise, i can buy
                organic manure i.e compost made of cow dung and green leaves, this may be
                expensive to cover the whole area, may be economically viable if i get the
                good returns. Even on this land, i am sure that no chemical was used
                earlier, it was tilled earlier and exposure to rain and sun would have
                degraded fertility.

                > Try different things as trials to see how they do but mark one area that
                > you can easily get to every day and treat it as kindly as you would your
                > children and spare it nothing.
                >

                Sure, the idea is to experiment, and increase the soil fertility, will be
                going for some timber crop, some fruits and some grains and vegetables for
                economical viability in coming years. To let you know everything is in
                planning stage, created a draft of the things that i plan to execute,
                working with Kumarswamy on the forum to validate my thoughts and getting to
                learn from everyone in the forum.

                Waiting to see my thoughts put into practice. Thanks for keeping the
                discussion going.
                GG


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