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RE: [fukuoka_farming] how to start no till farming.

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  • S K. KUMARASWAMY
    Dear GG, For seed sow season you must check with local people. If anyone in this group is from your nearby place he can clarify you. You can write note to
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 9, 2010
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      Dear GG,
      For seed sow season you must check with local people. If anyone in this group is from your nearby place he can clarify you.
      You can write note to group about your place.
      For rice, methi (menthe soppu) will be best cover crop

      Regards
      Kumarswamy


      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of G. G. Hegde
      Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:32 PM
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] how to start no till farming.



      Here monsson start by June first week. Could you tell me how to sow the
      seeds and what is the cover crop i should use and when to sow that?.
      thanks and regards,
      gg

      On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...<mailto:rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:

      > Dear friend,
      > Barren land looks hard but is pours and suitable for direct seeding.
      > Raju
      >
      > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:58 AM, G. G. Hegde <gghegde@...<mailto:gghegde%40gmail.com>> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > I am back with some basic question. How do i start No till farming.
      > >
      > > Suppose i have a barren land that is not cultivated for years. The place
      > is
      > > clean but hard. This monsoon i want to start with growing Rice. What all
      > i
      > > should be prepared with. When should i start all these.
      > >
      > > Hope to get step-by-step instructions. I am sure this would be lots of
      > > readers too.
      > >
      > > thanks and regards,
      > > gg
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
      > +919179738049.
      > http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


      www.bajajauto.com

      DISCLAIMER: This message, including any attachments may contain proprietary, confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient(s), and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original message and attachments, if any. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email or any action taken in reliance on this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies reserve the right to record, monitor, and inspect all email communications through its internal and external networks. Your messages can be subject to such lawful supervision as Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies deem necessary in order to protect their information, interests and reputation. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies prohibit and may take steps to prevent their information systems from being used to view, store or forward offensive or discriminatory material. If this message contains such material, please report it to abuse@.... Please ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any documents from this transmission. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies do not accept any liability for viruses.


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    • G. G. Hegde
      Hello Sir, 1. My land is located in Honnavara, this is the coastal belt. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honnavar) 2. I have 10 acre of land, thinking of doing
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 9, 2010
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        Hello Sir,

        1. My land is located in Honnavara, this is the coastal belt. (
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honnavar)
        2. I have 10 acre of land, thinking of doing it for the compelete area.
        3. At present there is nothing et all there, people used to grow rice there
        earlier, i think they have stopped a decade ago. I have attached the pic (
        this is screen shot of the video that i have).
        4. At present Rice, in the long term i plan to have 7 acre timber, and 3
        acre for rice/wheat and vegitable...in fact i am flexible.

        waiting for the inputs.

        thanks and regards,
        gg

        On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:

        > Dear friend,
        > Please send some more information.
        > 1- Where is land?
        > 2- In How many acre you want to do sowing?
        > 3- What natural cover is there?
        > 4-Crop preference
        > Raju.
        >
        > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:31 PM, G. G. Hegde <gghegde@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > Here monsson start by June first week. Could you tell me how to sow the
        > > seeds and what is the cover crop i should use and when to sow that?.
        > > thanks and regards,
        > > gg
        > >
        > >
        > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...
        > <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>>
        > > wrote:
        > >
        > > > Dear friend,
        > > > Barren land looks hard but is pours and suitable for direct seeding.
        > > > Raju
        > > >
        > > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:58 AM, G. G. Hegde <gghegde@...
        > <gghegde%40gmail.com>>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi,
        > > > >
        > > > > I am back with some basic question. How do i start No till farming.
        > > > >
        > > > > Suppose i have a barren land that is not cultivated for years. The
        > > place
        > > > is
        > > > > clean but hard. This monsoon i want to start with growing Rice. What
        > > all
        > > > i
        > > > > should be prepared with. When should i start all these.
        > > > >
        > > > > Hope to get step-by-step instructions. I am sure this would be lots
        > of
        > > > > readers too.
        > > > >
        > > > > thanks and regards,
        > > > > gg
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --
        > >
        > > > Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
        > > > +919179738049.
        > > > http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
        > +919179738049.
        > http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G. G. Hegde
        Dear Kumar, I don t think it was used for cattle grazing, you could see the attached pics in my previous mail. There is some bit of moisture, but as you
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 9, 2010
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          Dear Kumar,

          I don't think it was used for cattle grazing, you could see the attached
          pics in my previous mail. There is some bit of moisture, but as you
          mentioned there is no ground cover et all.

          I think at Honnavara, they sow rice in 2nd or 3rd week of June by then heavy
          rainfall would have started.

          Could you explain what you meant by "conventional method to seed sowing
          process".

          For drainage and boundary i am planning the trench around the land as any
          other form of fence would be expensive.

          thanks and regards,
          GG

          On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:45 PM, S K. KUMARASWAMY <
          skkumaraswamy@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > Dear GG,
          > If farm has used for cattle grazing then sure it has been harden a lot.
          > Then it's not suitable for direct seeding. If you have sufficient ground
          > cover then direct seeding is possible. Without ground cover (like straw)
          > germination will be very less. For your situation Its better to use some
          > conventional method to seed sowing process. Make sure don't till at all
          > before sowing. For rice, methi (menthe soppu: Kannada) will be best
          > combination as a cover crop. Use local seed and for rice sowing season check
          > with local people. Your place is being in coastal zone you receive heavy
          > rain shower. Make proper drain trenches for water drain.
          > Regards
          > Kumarswamy
          >
          > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
          > fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>] On
          > Behalf Of G. G. Hegde
          > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:58 AM
          > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] how to start no till farming.
          >
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > I am back with some basic question. How do i start No till farming.
          >
          > Suppose i have a barren land that is not cultivated for years. The place is
          > clean but hard. This monsoon i want to start with growing Rice. What all i
          > should be prepared with. When should i start all these.
          >
          > Hope to get step-by-step instructions. I am sure this would be lots of
          > readers too.
          >
          > thanks and regards,
          > gg
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > www.bajajauto.com
          >
          > DISCLAIMER: This message, including any attachments may contain
          > proprietary, confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the
          > intended recipient(s), and is protected by law. If you are not the intended
          > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of
          > the original message and attachments, if any. Any unauthorized review, use,
          > disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email or
          > any action taken in reliance on this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may
          > be unlawful. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies reserve the right to
          > record, monitor, and inspect all email communications through its internal
          > and external networks. Your messages can be subject to such lawful
          > supervision as Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies deem necessary in
          > order to protect their information, interests and reputation. Bajaj Auto and
          > / or its group companies prohibit and may take steps to prevent their
          > information systems from being used to view, store or forward offensive or
          > discriminatory material. If this message contains such material, please
          > report it to abuse@... <abuse%40bajajauto.co.in>. Please
          > ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any
          > documents from this transmission. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies do
          > not accept any liability for viruses.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tom Gibson
          No till farming isn t possible the first year unless there is something already growing on the land. Rice won t grow unless you can flood a containment for at
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 9, 2010
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            No till farming isn't possible the first year unless there is something
            already growing on the land. Rice won't grow unless you can flood a
            containment for at least six weeks at the start of the growth cycle but
            nothing is going to grow unless you can supply some kind of fertilizer.
            Natural farming uses animals to help decompose last season's crop and
            interplanting of beneficial plants like clover or other legumes that can
            help biomass and fertility by fixing nitrogen from the atmosphere. If
            nothing is growing on this land at all then I would employ a Fukuoka
            technique and colonize the plant population using seed balls, balls of mud
            and manure or compost with seeds inside, and cover the land with them before
            the next rain. Use a combination of plants that will support each other and
            start establishing colonies of plants and basic soil fertility by leaving
            organic matter on the ground and roots decaying in the ground. You can also
            plant rice in this way. Rice needs flooding mainly because it is a very weak
            plant in the first part of it's growth and doesn't compete well with weeds
            and other plants. Water suppresses the other plants and gives the rice a
            chance to outgrow other plants. Perennial clover can be encouraged to grow
            in the fields if it will survive your climate and just be submerged long
            enough to suppress but not kill the plant while the rice gets established.
            If you can't grow legumes on this land then you can grow forage crops or
            pasture for ruminants that will digest the pasture and add manure to the
            soil. As carbon and fertility increase in the soil then it is a healthier
            place for the animals and people.



            You can see what is going on in our food forest at
            <http://www.camaspermaculture.org> www.camaspermaculture.org
            <mailto:tom@...> tom@...
            Tom Gibson



            Why does Congress authorize the US Department of Agriculture to subsidize
            toxic industrial chemicals like HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) but not
            fresh vegetables? Nancy Pelosi took agricultural subsidy reform off the
            table so Democratic Party members from states that have large corporate
            agribusinesses can get re-elected (to keep representing large agribusiness
            concerns). Tell your Congressman and Senators that you aren't going to vote
            for them if they don't level the playing field for local, fresh, and
            nutrient dense foods





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • G. G. Hegde
            Hi Tom, As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am still not clear how to start. Suggestion from various people is to start with a
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 11, 2010
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              Hi Tom,

              As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am still
              not clear how to start.
              Suggestion from various people is to start with a dicot over crop, mulch it
              in a month or so and then start with sowing rice seeds.
              Another suggestions was to start with Fenugreek and rice.

              I would have sufficient water as this area is heavy rainfall area. So there
              should not be any issue with flooding for some time, my issue would be to
              have proper trench to get away from flooding.

              Saw your pics, very nice. do you suggest to use the similar techniques fro
              bigger area ( 4 hectare)?.

              thanks and regards,
              GG

              On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>wrote:

              >
              >
              > No till farming isn't possible the first year unless there is something
              > already growing on the land. Rice won't grow unless you can flood a
              > containment for at least six weeks at the start of the growth cycle but
              > nothing is going to grow unless you can supply some kind of fertilizer.
              > Natural farming uses animals to help decompose last season's crop and
              > interplanting of beneficial plants like clover or other legumes that can
              > help biomass and fertility by fixing nitrogen from the atmosphere. If
              > nothing is growing on this land at all then I would employ a Fukuoka
              > technique and colonize the plant population using seed balls, balls of mud
              > and manure or compost with seeds inside, and cover the land with them
              > before
              > the next rain. Use a combination of plants that will support each other and
              > start establishing colonies of plants and basic soil fertility by leaving
              > organic matter on the ground and roots decaying in the ground. You can also
              > plant rice in this way. Rice needs flooding mainly because it is a very
              > weak
              > plant in the first part of it's growth and doesn't compete well with weeds
              > and other plants. Water suppresses the other plants and gives the rice a
              > chance to outgrow other plants. Perennial clover can be encouraged to grow
              > in the fields if it will survive your climate and just be submerged long
              > enough to suppress but not kill the plant while the rice gets established.
              > If you can't grow legumes on this land then you can grow forage crops or
              > pasture for ruminants that will digest the pasture and add manure to the
              > soil. As carbon and fertility increase in the soil then it is a healthier
              > place for the animals and people.
              >
              > You can see what is going on in our food forest at
              > <http://www.camaspermaculture.org> www.camaspermaculture.org
              > <mailto:tom@... <tom%40camaspermaculture.org>>
              > tom@... <tom%40camaspermaculture.org>
              > Tom Gibson
              >
              > Why does Congress authorize the US Department of Agriculture to subsidize
              > toxic industrial chemicals like HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) but not
              > fresh vegetables? Nancy Pelosi took agricultural subsidy reform off the
              > table so Democratic Party members from states that have large corporate
              > agribusinesses can get re-elected (to keep representing large agribusiness
              > concerns). Tell your Congressman and Senators that you aren't going to vote
              > for them if they don't level the playing field for local, fresh, and
              > nutrient dense foods
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Gibson
              Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and carbon in the
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 12, 2010
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                Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and carbon in the soil. 4 hectares is about 10 acres. I don't know what you have to work that much ground with but an acre is about as much as one person can do well by hand according to Elliot Coleman, author of "The New Organic Grower". That sounds about right and it might be too much to do well in the first year. Spreading yourself too thin and doing a poor job of managing your land will yield you less and create more problems than working an area very well. I would see the first year how well you do with 1/4 acre, about 100 feet square on each side. If you can do a good job of taking care of 1/4 acre you will get as good a yield as ten acres taken care of poorly.

                The big question is where are you starting with your base fertilization? You might consider using the cheapest chemical fertilizers the first few years then putting all the organic matter back in the ground. You will need less outside inputs every year and can stop using them once the soil fertility is better. Bring everything you can get for free that will help-fish or fish bones, manure from the side of the road, large piles of organic matter, etc. Just keep bringing whatever others throw away and your soil will be the richest in the area in a few years. Get animals to help you break organic matter down but don't let them be in any one place for too long. I would rather be a crazy man with rich soil than a saint living on soil that is dead and has no organic matter in it.

                Try different things as trials to see how they do but mark one area that you can easily get to every day and treat it as kindly as you would your children and spare it nothing.

                Tom

                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "G. G. Hegde" <gghegde@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Tom,
                >
                > As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am still
                > not clear how to start.
                > Suggestion from various people is to start with a dicot over crop, mulch it
                > in a month or so and then start with sowing rice seeds.
                > Another suggestions was to start with Fenugreek and rice.
                >
              • Raju Titus
                Dear friends, There is no relation between Natural soil strength and fertilizers. Unnatural fertilizers are unable to bring Natural soil health. Fertilizers
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 12, 2010
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                  Dear friends,
                  There is no relation between" Natural soil strength "and fertilizers.
                  Unnatural fertilizers are unable to bring Natural soil health. Fertilizers
                  known as "Orgenic" or Bio are also comes in the category of "Unnatural
                  fertilizers".
                  Thanks
                  Raju

                  On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 7:52 AM, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The
                  > goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and
                  > carbon in the soil. 4 hectares is about 10 acres. I don't know what you have
                  > to work that much ground with but an acre is about as much as one person can
                  > do well by hand according to Elliot Coleman, author of "The New Organic
                  > Grower". That sounds about right and it might be too much to do well in the
                  > first year. Spreading yourself too thin and doing a poor job of managing
                  > your land will yield you less and create more problems than working an area
                  > very well. I would see the first year how well you do with 1/4 acre, about
                  > 100 feet square on each side. If you can do a good job of taking care of 1/4
                  > acre you will get as good a yield as ten acres taken care of poorly.
                  >
                  > The big question is where are you starting with your base fertilization?
                  > You might consider using the cheapest chemical fertilizers the first few
                  > years then putting all the organic matter back in the ground. You will need
                  > less outside inputs every year and can stop using them once the soil
                  > fertility is better. Bring everything you can get for free that will
                  > help-fish or fish bones, manure from the side of the road, large piles of
                  > organic matter, etc. Just keep bringing whatever others throw away and your
                  > soil will be the richest in the area in a few years. Get animals to help you
                  > break organic matter down but don't let them be in any one place for too
                  > long. I would rather be a crazy man with rich soil than a saint living on
                  > soil that is dead and has no organic matter in it.
                  >
                  > Try different things as trials to see how they do but mark one area that
                  > you can easily get to every day and treat it as kindly as you would your
                  > children and spare it nothing.
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > "G. G. Hegde" <gghegde@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Tom,
                  > >
                  > > As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am
                  > still
                  > > not clear how to start.
                  > > Suggestion from various people is to start with a dicot over crop, mulch
                  > it
                  > > in a month or so and then start with sowing rice seeds.
                  > > Another suggestions was to start with Fenugreek and rice.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
                  +919179738049.
                  http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • G. G. Hegde
                  My reply inline. This is how I am thinking, need correction/recommendation from experts. ... really get any good crop but to ensure the whole area is covered,
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 13, 2010
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                    My reply inline. This is how I am thinking, need correction/recommendation
                    from experts.

                    > Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The
                    > goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and
                    > carbon in the soil. 4 hectares is about 10 acres. I don't know what you have
                    > to work that much ground with but an acre is about as much as one person can
                    > do well by hand according to Elliot Coleman, author of "The New Organic
                    > Grower". That sounds about right and it might be too much to do well in the
                    > first year. Spreading yourself too thin and doing a poor job of managing
                    > your land will yield you less and create more problems than working an area
                    > very well. I would see the first year how well you do with 1/4 acre, about
                    > 100 feet square on each side. If you can do a good job of taking care of 1/4
                    > acre you will get as good a yield as ten acres taken care of poorly.
                    >
                    > My idea here including the whole area instead of say 1 acre was not to
                    really get any good crop but to ensure the whole area is covered, this could
                    be used as mulch for next harvest. I am ok even to have rice and Fenugreek
                    just cover the area and grow without even giving me any returns, though i
                    have not really calculated the economics to having the whole crop fail, but
                    produce the biomass that would be good enough to start the winter crop. All
                    my family experience is in growing areaca/coconut and little bit to paddy
                    with no chemicals, and no till is definitely a experiment and way going
                    forward.

                    > The big question is where are you starting with your base fertilization?
                    > You might consider using the cheapest chemical fertilizers the first few
                    > years then putting all the organic matter back in the ground. You will need
                    > less outside inputs every year and can stop using them once the soil
                    > fertility is better. Bring everything you can get for free that will
                    > help-fish or fish bones, manure from the side of the road, large piles of
                    > organic matter, etc. Just keep bringing whatever others throw away and your
                    > soil will be the richest in the area in a few years. Get animals to help you
                    > break organic matter down but don't let them be in any one place for too
                    > long. I would rather be a crazy man with rich soil than a saint living on
                    > soil that is dead and has no organic matter in it.
                    >
                    My base fertilizer would be this crop itself, even otherwise, i can buy
                    organic manure i.e compost made of cow dung and green leaves, this may be
                    expensive to cover the whole area, may be economically viable if i get the
                    good returns. Even on this land, i am sure that no chemical was used
                    earlier, it was tilled earlier and exposure to rain and sun would have
                    degraded fertility.

                    > Try different things as trials to see how they do but mark one area that
                    > you can easily get to every day and treat it as kindly as you would your
                    > children and spare it nothing.
                    >

                    Sure, the idea is to experiment, and increase the soil fertility, will be
                    going for some timber crop, some fruits and some grains and vegetables for
                    economical viability in coming years. To let you know everything is in
                    planning stage, created a draft of the things that i plan to execute,
                    working with Kumarswamy on the forum to validate my thoughts and getting to
                    learn from everyone in the forum.

                    Waiting to see my thoughts put into practice. Thanks for keeping the
                    discussion going.
                    GG


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