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Re: [fukuoka_farming] how to start no till farming.

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  • G. G. Hegde
    Here monsson start by June first week. Could you tell me how to sow the seeds and what is the cover crop i should use and when to sow that?. thanks and
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 8, 2010
      Here monsson start by June first week. Could you tell me how to sow the
      seeds and what is the cover crop i should use and when to sow that?.
      thanks and regards,
      gg

      On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:

      > Dear friend,
      > Barren land looks hard but is pours and suitable for direct seeding.
      > Raju
      >
      > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:58 AM, G. G. Hegde <gghegde@...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > I am back with some basic question. How do i start No till farming.
      > >
      > > Suppose i have a barren land that is not cultivated for years. The place
      > is
      > > clean but hard. This monsoon i want to start with growing Rice. What all
      > i
      > > should be prepared with. When should i start all these.
      > >
      > > Hope to get step-by-step instructions. I am sure this would be lots of
      > > readers too.
      > >
      > > thanks and regards,
      > > gg
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
      > +919179738049.
      > http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Raju Titus
      Dear friend, Please send some more information. 1- Where is land? 2- In How many acre you want to do sowing? 3- What natural cover is there? 4-Crop preference
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 8, 2010
        Dear friend,
        Please send some more information.
        1- Where is land?
        2- In How many acre you want to do sowing?
        3- What natural cover is there?
        4-Crop preference
        Raju.

        On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:31 PM, G. G. Hegde <gghegde@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Here monsson start by June first week. Could you tell me how to sow the
        > seeds and what is the cover crop i should use and when to sow that?.
        > thanks and regards,
        > gg
        >
        >
        > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...<rajuktitus%40gmail.com>>
        > wrote:
        >
        > > Dear friend,
        > > Barren land looks hard but is pours and suitable for direct seeding.
        > > Raju
        > >
        > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:58 AM, G. G. Hegde <gghegde@...<gghegde%40gmail.com>>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hi,
        > > >
        > > > I am back with some basic question. How do i start No till farming.
        > > >
        > > > Suppose i have a barren land that is not cultivated for years. The
        > place
        > > is
        > > > clean but hard. This monsoon i want to start with growing Rice. What
        > all
        > > i
        > > > should be prepared with. When should i start all these.
        > > >
        > > > Hope to get step-by-step instructions. I am sure this would be lots of
        > > > readers too.
        > > >
        > > > thanks and regards,
        > > > gg
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        >
        > > Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
        > > +919179738049.
        > > http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >



        --
        Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
        +919179738049.
        http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • S K. KUMARASWAMY
        Dear GG, If farm has used for cattle grazing then sure it has been harden a lot. Then it s not suitable for direct seeding. If you have sufficient ground cover
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 9, 2010
          Dear GG,
          If farm has used for cattle grazing then sure it has been harden a lot. Then it's not suitable for direct seeding. If you have sufficient ground cover then direct seeding is possible. Without ground cover (like straw) germination will be very less. For your situation Its better to use some conventional method to seed sowing process. Make sure don't till at all before sowing. For rice, methi (menthe soppu: Kannada) will be best combination as a cover crop. Use local seed and for rice sowing season check with local people. Your place is being in coastal zone you receive heavy rain shower. Make proper drain trenches for water drain.
          Regards
          Kumarswamy

          From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of G. G. Hegde
          Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:58 AM
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] how to start no till farming.



          Hi,

          I am back with some basic question. How do i start No till farming.

          Suppose i have a barren land that is not cultivated for years. The place is
          clean but hard. This monsoon i want to start with growing Rice. What all i
          should be prepared with. When should i start all these.

          Hope to get step-by-step instructions. I am sure this would be lots of
          readers too.

          thanks and regards,
          gg

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


          www.bajajauto.com

          DISCLAIMER: This message, including any attachments may contain proprietary, confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient(s), and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original message and attachments, if any. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email or any action taken in reliance on this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies reserve the right to record, monitor, and inspect all email communications through its internal and external networks. Your messages can be subject to such lawful supervision as Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies deem necessary in order to protect their information, interests and reputation. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies prohibit and may take steps to prevent their information systems from being used to view, store or forward offensive or discriminatory material. If this message contains such material, please report it to abuse@.... Please ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any documents from this transmission. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies do not accept any liability for viruses.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • S K. KUMARASWAMY
          Dear GG, For seed sow season you must check with local people. If anyone in this group is from your nearby place he can clarify you. You can write note to
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 9, 2010
            Dear GG,
            For seed sow season you must check with local people. If anyone in this group is from your nearby place he can clarify you.
            You can write note to group about your place.
            For rice, methi (menthe soppu) will be best cover crop

            Regards
            Kumarswamy


            From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of G. G. Hegde
            Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:32 PM
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] how to start no till farming.



            Here monsson start by June first week. Could you tell me how to sow the
            seeds and what is the cover crop i should use and when to sow that?.
            thanks and regards,
            gg

            On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...<mailto:rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:

            > Dear friend,
            > Barren land looks hard but is pours and suitable for direct seeding.
            > Raju
            >
            > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:58 AM, G. G. Hegde <gghegde@...<mailto:gghegde%40gmail.com>> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi,
            > >
            > > I am back with some basic question. How do i start No till farming.
            > >
            > > Suppose i have a barren land that is not cultivated for years. The place
            > is
            > > clean but hard. This monsoon i want to start with growing Rice. What all
            > i
            > > should be prepared with. When should i start all these.
            > >
            > > Hope to get step-by-step instructions. I am sure this would be lots of
            > > readers too.
            > >
            > > thanks and regards,
            > > gg
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
            > +919179738049.
            > http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


            www.bajajauto.com

            DISCLAIMER: This message, including any attachments may contain proprietary, confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient(s), and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original message and attachments, if any. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email or any action taken in reliance on this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies reserve the right to record, monitor, and inspect all email communications through its internal and external networks. Your messages can be subject to such lawful supervision as Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies deem necessary in order to protect their information, interests and reputation. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies prohibit and may take steps to prevent their information systems from being used to view, store or forward offensive or discriminatory material. If this message contains such material, please report it to abuse@.... Please ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any documents from this transmission. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies do not accept any liability for viruses.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • G. G. Hegde
            Hello Sir, 1. My land is located in Honnavara, this is the coastal belt. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honnavar) 2. I have 10 acre of land, thinking of doing
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 9, 2010
              Hello Sir,

              1. My land is located in Honnavara, this is the coastal belt. (
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honnavar)
              2. I have 10 acre of land, thinking of doing it for the compelete area.
              3. At present there is nothing et all there, people used to grow rice there
              earlier, i think they have stopped a decade ago. I have attached the pic (
              this is screen shot of the video that i have).
              4. At present Rice, in the long term i plan to have 7 acre timber, and 3
              acre for rice/wheat and vegitable...in fact i am flexible.

              waiting for the inputs.

              thanks and regards,
              gg

              On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:

              > Dear friend,
              > Please send some more information.
              > 1- Where is land?
              > 2- In How many acre you want to do sowing?
              > 3- What natural cover is there?
              > 4-Crop preference
              > Raju.
              >
              > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:31 PM, G. G. Hegde <gghegde@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > Here monsson start by June first week. Could you tell me how to sow the
              > > seeds and what is the cover crop i should use and when to sow that?.
              > > thanks and regards,
              > > gg
              > >
              > >
              > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...
              > <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>>
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > > > Dear friend,
              > > > Barren land looks hard but is pours and suitable for direct seeding.
              > > > Raju
              > > >
              > > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:58 AM, G. G. Hegde <gghegde@...
              > <gghegde%40gmail.com>>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi,
              > > > >
              > > > > I am back with some basic question. How do i start No till farming.
              > > > >
              > > > > Suppose i have a barren land that is not cultivated for years. The
              > > place
              > > > is
              > > > > clean but hard. This monsoon i want to start with growing Rice. What
              > > all
              > > > i
              > > > > should be prepared with. When should i start all these.
              > > > >
              > > > > Hope to get step-by-step instructions. I am sure this would be lots
              > of
              > > > > readers too.
              > > > >
              > > > > thanks and regards,
              > > > > gg
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --
              > >
              > > > Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
              > > > +919179738049.
              > > > http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
              > +919179738049.
              > http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • G. G. Hegde
              Dear Kumar, I don t think it was used for cattle grazing, you could see the attached pics in my previous mail. There is some bit of moisture, but as you
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 9, 2010
                Dear Kumar,

                I don't think it was used for cattle grazing, you could see the attached
                pics in my previous mail. There is some bit of moisture, but as you
                mentioned there is no ground cover et all.

                I think at Honnavara, they sow rice in 2nd or 3rd week of June by then heavy
                rainfall would have started.

                Could you explain what you meant by "conventional method to seed sowing
                process".

                For drainage and boundary i am planning the trench around the land as any
                other form of fence would be expensive.

                thanks and regards,
                GG

                On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:45 PM, S K. KUMARASWAMY <
                skkumaraswamy@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > Dear GG,
                > If farm has used for cattle grazing then sure it has been harden a lot.
                > Then it's not suitable for direct seeding. If you have sufficient ground
                > cover then direct seeding is possible. Without ground cover (like straw)
                > germination will be very less. For your situation Its better to use some
                > conventional method to seed sowing process. Make sure don't till at all
                > before sowing. For rice, methi (menthe soppu: Kannada) will be best
                > combination as a cover crop. Use local seed and for rice sowing season check
                > with local people. Your place is being in coastal zone you receive heavy
                > rain shower. Make proper drain trenches for water drain.
                > Regards
                > Kumarswamy
                >
                > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
                > fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                > Behalf Of G. G. Hegde
                > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:58 AM
                > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] how to start no till farming.
                >
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > I am back with some basic question. How do i start No till farming.
                >
                > Suppose i have a barren land that is not cultivated for years. The place is
                > clean but hard. This monsoon i want to start with growing Rice. What all i
                > should be prepared with. When should i start all these.
                >
                > Hope to get step-by-step instructions. I am sure this would be lots of
                > readers too.
                >
                > thanks and regards,
                > gg
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > www.bajajauto.com
                >
                > DISCLAIMER: This message, including any attachments may contain
                > proprietary, confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the
                > intended recipient(s), and is protected by law. If you are not the intended
                > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of
                > the original message and attachments, if any. Any unauthorized review, use,
                > disclosure, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email or
                > any action taken in reliance on this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may
                > be unlawful. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies reserve the right to
                > record, monitor, and inspect all email communications through its internal
                > and external networks. Your messages can be subject to such lawful
                > supervision as Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies deem necessary in
                > order to protect their information, interests and reputation. Bajaj Auto and
                > / or its group companies prohibit and may take steps to prevent their
                > information systems from being used to view, store or forward offensive or
                > discriminatory material. If this message contains such material, please
                > report it to abuse@... <abuse%40bajajauto.co.in>. Please
                > ensure you have adequate virus protection before you open or detach any
                > documents from this transmission. Bajaj Auto and / or its group companies do
                > not accept any liability for viruses.
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tom Gibson
                No till farming isn t possible the first year unless there is something already growing on the land. Rice won t grow unless you can flood a containment for at
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 9, 2010
                  No till farming isn't possible the first year unless there is something
                  already growing on the land. Rice won't grow unless you can flood a
                  containment for at least six weeks at the start of the growth cycle but
                  nothing is going to grow unless you can supply some kind of fertilizer.
                  Natural farming uses animals to help decompose last season's crop and
                  interplanting of beneficial plants like clover or other legumes that can
                  help biomass and fertility by fixing nitrogen from the atmosphere. If
                  nothing is growing on this land at all then I would employ a Fukuoka
                  technique and colonize the plant population using seed balls, balls of mud
                  and manure or compost with seeds inside, and cover the land with them before
                  the next rain. Use a combination of plants that will support each other and
                  start establishing colonies of plants and basic soil fertility by leaving
                  organic matter on the ground and roots decaying in the ground. You can also
                  plant rice in this way. Rice needs flooding mainly because it is a very weak
                  plant in the first part of it's growth and doesn't compete well with weeds
                  and other plants. Water suppresses the other plants and gives the rice a
                  chance to outgrow other plants. Perennial clover can be encouraged to grow
                  in the fields if it will survive your climate and just be submerged long
                  enough to suppress but not kill the plant while the rice gets established.
                  If you can't grow legumes on this land then you can grow forage crops or
                  pasture for ruminants that will digest the pasture and add manure to the
                  soil. As carbon and fertility increase in the soil then it is a healthier
                  place for the animals and people.



                  You can see what is going on in our food forest at
                  <http://www.camaspermaculture.org> www.camaspermaculture.org
                  <mailto:tom@...> tom@...
                  Tom Gibson



                  Why does Congress authorize the US Department of Agriculture to subsidize
                  toxic industrial chemicals like HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) but not
                  fresh vegetables? Nancy Pelosi took agricultural subsidy reform off the
                  table so Democratic Party members from states that have large corporate
                  agribusinesses can get re-elected (to keep representing large agribusiness
                  concerns). Tell your Congressman and Senators that you aren't going to vote
                  for them if they don't level the playing field for local, fresh, and
                  nutrient dense foods





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • G. G. Hegde
                  Hi Tom, As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am still not clear how to start. Suggestion from various people is to start with a
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 11, 2010
                    Hi Tom,

                    As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am still
                    not clear how to start.
                    Suggestion from various people is to start with a dicot over crop, mulch it
                    in a month or so and then start with sowing rice seeds.
                    Another suggestions was to start with Fenugreek and rice.

                    I would have sufficient water as this area is heavy rainfall area. So there
                    should not be any issue with flooding for some time, my issue would be to
                    have proper trench to get away from flooding.

                    Saw your pics, very nice. do you suggest to use the similar techniques fro
                    bigger area ( 4 hectare)?.

                    thanks and regards,
                    GG

                    On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > No till farming isn't possible the first year unless there is something
                    > already growing on the land. Rice won't grow unless you can flood a
                    > containment for at least six weeks at the start of the growth cycle but
                    > nothing is going to grow unless you can supply some kind of fertilizer.
                    > Natural farming uses animals to help decompose last season's crop and
                    > interplanting of beneficial plants like clover or other legumes that can
                    > help biomass and fertility by fixing nitrogen from the atmosphere. If
                    > nothing is growing on this land at all then I would employ a Fukuoka
                    > technique and colonize the plant population using seed balls, balls of mud
                    > and manure or compost with seeds inside, and cover the land with them
                    > before
                    > the next rain. Use a combination of plants that will support each other and
                    > start establishing colonies of plants and basic soil fertility by leaving
                    > organic matter on the ground and roots decaying in the ground. You can also
                    > plant rice in this way. Rice needs flooding mainly because it is a very
                    > weak
                    > plant in the first part of it's growth and doesn't compete well with weeds
                    > and other plants. Water suppresses the other plants and gives the rice a
                    > chance to outgrow other plants. Perennial clover can be encouraged to grow
                    > in the fields if it will survive your climate and just be submerged long
                    > enough to suppress but not kill the plant while the rice gets established.
                    > If you can't grow legumes on this land then you can grow forage crops or
                    > pasture for ruminants that will digest the pasture and add manure to the
                    > soil. As carbon and fertility increase in the soil then it is a healthier
                    > place for the animals and people.
                    >
                    > You can see what is going on in our food forest at
                    > <http://www.camaspermaculture.org> www.camaspermaculture.org
                    > <mailto:tom@... <tom%40camaspermaculture.org>>
                    > tom@... <tom%40camaspermaculture.org>
                    > Tom Gibson
                    >
                    > Why does Congress authorize the US Department of Agriculture to subsidize
                    > toxic industrial chemicals like HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) but not
                    > fresh vegetables? Nancy Pelosi took agricultural subsidy reform off the
                    > table so Democratic Party members from states that have large corporate
                    > agribusinesses can get re-elected (to keep representing large agribusiness
                    > concerns). Tell your Congressman and Senators that you aren't going to vote
                    > for them if they don't level the playing field for local, fresh, and
                    > nutrient dense foods
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tom Gibson
                    Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and carbon in the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 12, 2010
                      Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and carbon in the soil. 4 hectares is about 10 acres. I don't know what you have to work that much ground with but an acre is about as much as one person can do well by hand according to Elliot Coleman, author of "The New Organic Grower". That sounds about right and it might be too much to do well in the first year. Spreading yourself too thin and doing a poor job of managing your land will yield you less and create more problems than working an area very well. I would see the first year how well you do with 1/4 acre, about 100 feet square on each side. If you can do a good job of taking care of 1/4 acre you will get as good a yield as ten acres taken care of poorly.

                      The big question is where are you starting with your base fertilization? You might consider using the cheapest chemical fertilizers the first few years then putting all the organic matter back in the ground. You will need less outside inputs every year and can stop using them once the soil fertility is better. Bring everything you can get for free that will help-fish or fish bones, manure from the side of the road, large piles of organic matter, etc. Just keep bringing whatever others throw away and your soil will be the richest in the area in a few years. Get animals to help you break organic matter down but don't let them be in any one place for too long. I would rather be a crazy man with rich soil than a saint living on soil that is dead and has no organic matter in it.

                      Try different things as trials to see how they do but mark one area that you can easily get to every day and treat it as kindly as you would your children and spare it nothing.

                      Tom

                      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "G. G. Hegde" <gghegde@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Tom,
                      >
                      > As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am still
                      > not clear how to start.
                      > Suggestion from various people is to start with a dicot over crop, mulch it
                      > in a month or so and then start with sowing rice seeds.
                      > Another suggestions was to start with Fenugreek and rice.
                      >
                    • Raju Titus
                      Dear friends, There is no relation between Natural soil strength and fertilizers. Unnatural fertilizers are unable to bring Natural soil health. Fertilizers
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 12, 2010
                        Dear friends,
                        There is no relation between" Natural soil strength "and fertilizers.
                        Unnatural fertilizers are unable to bring Natural soil health. Fertilizers
                        known as "Orgenic" or Bio are also comes in the category of "Unnatural
                        fertilizers".
                        Thanks
                        Raju

                        On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 7:52 AM, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The
                        > goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and
                        > carbon in the soil. 4 hectares is about 10 acres. I don't know what you have
                        > to work that much ground with but an acre is about as much as one person can
                        > do well by hand according to Elliot Coleman, author of "The New Organic
                        > Grower". That sounds about right and it might be too much to do well in the
                        > first year. Spreading yourself too thin and doing a poor job of managing
                        > your land will yield you less and create more problems than working an area
                        > very well. I would see the first year how well you do with 1/4 acre, about
                        > 100 feet square on each side. If you can do a good job of taking care of 1/4
                        > acre you will get as good a yield as ten acres taken care of poorly.
                        >
                        > The big question is where are you starting with your base fertilization?
                        > You might consider using the cheapest chemical fertilizers the first few
                        > years then putting all the organic matter back in the ground. You will need
                        > less outside inputs every year and can stop using them once the soil
                        > fertility is better. Bring everything you can get for free that will
                        > help-fish or fish bones, manure from the side of the road, large piles of
                        > organic matter, etc. Just keep bringing whatever others throw away and your
                        > soil will be the richest in the area in a few years. Get animals to help you
                        > break organic matter down but don't let them be in any one place for too
                        > long. I would rather be a crazy man with rich soil than a saint living on
                        > soil that is dead and has no organic matter in it.
                        >
                        > Try different things as trials to see how they do but mark one area that
                        > you can easily get to every day and treat it as kindly as you would your
                        > children and spare it nothing.
                        >
                        > Tom
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > "G. G. Hegde" <gghegde@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Tom,
                        > >
                        > > As you mentioned there is no cover crop now, that is the reason i am
                        > still
                        > > not clear how to start.
                        > > Suggestion from various people is to start with a dicot over crop, mulch
                        > it
                        > > in a month or so and then start with sowing rice seeds.
                        > > Another suggestions was to start with Fenugreek and rice.
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Raju Titus. Hoshangabad.India.
                        +919179738049.
                        http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • G. G. Hegde
                        My reply inline. This is how I am thinking, need correction/recommendation from experts. ... really get any good crop but to ensure the whole area is covered,
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 13, 2010
                          My reply inline. This is how I am thinking, need correction/recommendation
                          from experts.

                          > Fenugreek could work if you can get it established and grow it out. The
                          > goal is to develop biomass and start building up the organic matter and
                          > carbon in the soil. 4 hectares is about 10 acres. I don't know what you have
                          > to work that much ground with but an acre is about as much as one person can
                          > do well by hand according to Elliot Coleman, author of "The New Organic
                          > Grower". That sounds about right and it might be too much to do well in the
                          > first year. Spreading yourself too thin and doing a poor job of managing
                          > your land will yield you less and create more problems than working an area
                          > very well. I would see the first year how well you do with 1/4 acre, about
                          > 100 feet square on each side. If you can do a good job of taking care of 1/4
                          > acre you will get as good a yield as ten acres taken care of poorly.
                          >
                          > My idea here including the whole area instead of say 1 acre was not to
                          really get any good crop but to ensure the whole area is covered, this could
                          be used as mulch for next harvest. I am ok even to have rice and Fenugreek
                          just cover the area and grow without even giving me any returns, though i
                          have not really calculated the economics to having the whole crop fail, but
                          produce the biomass that would be good enough to start the winter crop. All
                          my family experience is in growing areaca/coconut and little bit to paddy
                          with no chemicals, and no till is definitely a experiment and way going
                          forward.

                          > The big question is where are you starting with your base fertilization?
                          > You might consider using the cheapest chemical fertilizers the first few
                          > years then putting all the organic matter back in the ground. You will need
                          > less outside inputs every year and can stop using them once the soil
                          > fertility is better. Bring everything you can get for free that will
                          > help-fish or fish bones, manure from the side of the road, large piles of
                          > organic matter, etc. Just keep bringing whatever others throw away and your
                          > soil will be the richest in the area in a few years. Get animals to help you
                          > break organic matter down but don't let them be in any one place for too
                          > long. I would rather be a crazy man with rich soil than a saint living on
                          > soil that is dead and has no organic matter in it.
                          >
                          My base fertilizer would be this crop itself, even otherwise, i can buy
                          organic manure i.e compost made of cow dung and green leaves, this may be
                          expensive to cover the whole area, may be economically viable if i get the
                          good returns. Even on this land, i am sure that no chemical was used
                          earlier, it was tilled earlier and exposure to rain and sun would have
                          degraded fertility.

                          > Try different things as trials to see how they do but mark one area that
                          > you can easily get to every day and treat it as kindly as you would your
                          > children and spare it nothing.
                          >

                          Sure, the idea is to experiment, and increase the soil fertility, will be
                          going for some timber crop, some fruits and some grains and vegetables for
                          economical viability in coming years. To let you know everything is in
                          planning stage, created a draft of the things that i plan to execute,
                          working with Kumarswamy on the forum to validate my thoughts and getting to
                          learn from everyone in the forum.

                          Waiting to see my thoughts put into practice. Thanks for keeping the
                          discussion going.
                          GG


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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