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Re: [fukuoka_farming] ratbags

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  • edward barton
    Hi Jason. I strongly feel that people who have different ways of adopting Fukuoka s teachings are under no circumstances to be called as : ratbags . Everyone
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 31, 2009
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      Hi Jason.
      I strongly feel that people who have different ways of adopting Fukuoka s teachings
      are under no circumstances to be called as :"ratbags".
      Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and i sincerely request you to refrain from using such
      harsh words for people who have different perceptions..
      Thanks
      Wishing Everyone on this Group
      A
      HAPPY----HEALTHY------PROSPEROUS 2010.
      regards
      ed.




      ________________________________
      From: Jim Snyder <jim@...>
      To: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@...>
      Cc: "fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com" <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, December 31, 2009 10:20:45 PM
      Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Re: What is the Difference?


      Jason: I wonder what Fukuoka would think of a reply such as yours below?

      I manage another site related to sustainable farming where one is free to discuss Fukuoka, Robert Rodale, Joel Salatin, Alan Nation, Jim Gerrish and any other type of sustainable farming activities.

      Jim Snyder
      Edmore, MI
      http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/

      From: Jason Stewart <macropneuma@ yahoo.com. au>
      Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Re: What is the Difference?

      Date: Thursday, December 31, 2009, 9:37 AM

      Purity is an excellent quality. It would benefit this group if only pure people are members, and if all you ratbags and purists leave (go to a group you relate to, are positive about, and a benefit to). If any one of you members here don't know the difference between pure & purist people, then you're slow or you don't have basic education enough to understand & appreciate the perfection of the human spirit starting point & primary purpose of Fukuoka farming. i write that kindly. Go to different groups and come back when you ARE ready for what Fukuoka writes. Fukuoka sensei's evidences & written information isn't a solipsists smorgasboard.
      This groups members would then consist of people with much more-quality farms, of less quantity total -& less quantity of off-topic ignorance, of opinionated- ignorance, of parasites & of ratbags, and more honest Fukuoka farming contributors. This would have more beneficial influence on the wider world from genuine cooperation & less pollution here.. I'm disappointed that some members here want it the way i'm about to describe; Want to undermine Fukuoka's evident truths, eg. philosophy, eg. composting, Fukuoka's-writing proves unnecessary & wasteful. This is expected from those Americans who simply to survive, have to sell their souls for money because of the extreme inequalities & dog-eat-dog human conditions, & till recently 'health system', in USA. Who can blame them, not me.

      Lowest common denominator communication in great quantity destroys the quality.

      James wrote:
      >
      > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.
      > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle and goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and carbon in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now when moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced 300 bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.
      > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the immediate challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and feed a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will go a long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.
      > All the best to everybody in 2010!
      > Jim Snyder
      > Edmore, MI
      > http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/
      > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com , Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@... > wrote:
      >>
      >> Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you feel
      >> perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty much
      >> doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming to the
      >> world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in is the
      >> "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps you
      >> should read what you have just written from another's point of view. You
      >> truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously defend
      >> it.
      >>
      >> Breath deep.. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not be
      >> judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able
      >> to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.
      >>
      >> Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion. Seriously,
      >> this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The next
      >> thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists, who go
      >> out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and ringing
      >> the permaculture trees with chainsaws.
      >>
      >> It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all. The
      >> only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening up til
      >> the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant seeds,
      >> you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are overcoming
      >> the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of
      >> multitudinous species all together.
      >>
      >> So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering lifestyle,
      >> come down off the soapbox, please.
      >>
      >> All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new
      >> religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?
      >>
      >> I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try to
      >> not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are
      >> actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god. He's
      >> just a guy with an interesting idea.
      >>
      >> Thanks,
      >>
      >> Frank
      >>
      >> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@ ...> wrote:
      >>
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > G'day friend, Ezeli,
      >> > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.
      >> > Please if you will read this introductory page
      >> > http://www.naturalf arming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' & Panos' &
      >> > others in Greece.
      >> > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this introduction, even
      >> > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other cult
      >> > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for
      >> > PermCult...ure) .
      >> > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming the new
      >> > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.
      >> > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s, about 20
      >> > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist myself,
      >> > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.
      >> > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in their
      >> > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -
      >> > plagiarised:
      >> > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true originator or
      >> > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.
      >> > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying goes.
      >> > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't good, as
      >> > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term over your
      >> > own learning.
      >> > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use from
      >> > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends, don't buy any
      >> > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn') IMHO, don't
      >> > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a follower of
      >> > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to buy some
      >> > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you need & we
      >> > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be borrowed from
      >> > the library too.
      >> > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers. Trying to
      >> > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in
      >> > selfish-greed- hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego illusions
      >> > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming as well
      >> > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big inflated
      >> > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so would
      >> > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making businesses.
      >> > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called teachers),
      >> > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices & investments
      >> > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled
      >> > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in Oz), in its
      >> > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for the so
      >> > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.
      >> > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill Mollison
      >> > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in person in
      >> > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the originators
      >> > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not least, the
      >> > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-
      >> >
      >> > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your own
      >> > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about plants &
      >> > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from getting
      >> > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops & foods.
      >> > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the biggest
      >> > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation began!!!, so
      >> > long ago.
      >> >
      >> > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road back to
      >> > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at conferences
      >> > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.
      >> > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and evidence,
      >> > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are made clear
      >> > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in Mollison's &
      >> > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many continuing
      >> > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;
      >> > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult and
      >> > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits! - i
      >> > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this group for
      >> > a best example - just search this group.
      >> >
      >> > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural farming
      >> > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.
      >> > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many PermaCult
      >> > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and make
      >> > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural farmers choose
      >> > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students and selling
      >> > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a
      >> > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from
      >> > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.
      >> > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, & others. can
      >> > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural farming,
      >> > way-far-more again than i can teach this.
      >> > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather than
      >> > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here, detailed
      >> > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from people you
      >> > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar habitats to
      >> > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.
      >> > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet arena,
      >> > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own off-topic
      >> > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).
      >> >
      >> > with kind love for all life,
      >> >
      >> > Jase.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com <fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com>,
      >> > ezell wilson <jacare722000@ > wrote:
      >> > >
      >> > > Hello all,
      >> > >
      >> > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply perused
      >> > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One Straw
      >> > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books. I live in
      >> > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers classes in
      >> > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to nothing
      >> > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are the
      >> > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods espoused
      >> > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with the idea
      >> > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive into it?
      >> > >
      >> > > Thank you in advance for your answers.
      >> > >
      >> > > Ezell
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> > >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >

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    • Frank McAvinchey
      One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That s a lot of
      Message 2 of 30 , Jan 1, 2010
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        One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you
        and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a
        lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to
        wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here in
        Ohio.

        Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!

        Frank

        On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should
        > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.
        >
        > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle and
        > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and carbon
        > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now when
        > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced 300
        > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.
        >
        > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the immediate
        > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and feed
        > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will go a
        > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.
        >
        > All the best to everybody in 2010!
        >
        > Jim Snyder
        > Edmore, MI
        > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
        >
        >
        > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you
        > feel
        > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty
        > much
        > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming to
        > the
        > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in is
        > the
        > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps you
        > > should read what you have just written from another's point of view. You
        > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously
        > defend
        > > it.
        > >
        > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not be
        > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able
        > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.
        > >
        > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion. Seriously,
        > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The next
        > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists, who
        > go
        > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and ringing
        > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.
        > >
        > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all. The
        > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening up
        > til
        > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant seeds,
        > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are overcoming
        > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of
        > > multitudinous species all together.
        > >
        > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering lifestyle,
        > > come down off the soapbox, please.
        > >
        > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new
        > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?
        > >
        > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try to
        > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are
        > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god. He's
        > > just a guy with an interesting idea.
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > >
        > > Frank
        > >
        > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,
        > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.
        > > > Please if you will read this introductory page
        > > > http://www.naturalfarming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' & Panos' &
        > > > others in Greece.
        > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this introduction,
        > even
        > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other cult
        > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for
        > > > PermCult...ure).
        > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming the
        > new
        > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.
        > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s, about
        > 20
        > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist
        > myself,
        > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.
        > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in their
        > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -
        > > > plagiarised:
        > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true originator
        > or
        > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.
        > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying goes.
        > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't good,
        > as
        > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term over
        > your
        > > > own learning.
        > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use from
        > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends, don't
        > buy any
        > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn') IMHO,
        > don't
        > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a
        > follower of
        > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to buy
        > some
        > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you need &
        > we
        > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be borrowed
        > from
        > > > the library too.
        > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers.
        > Trying to
        > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in
        > > > selfish-greed-hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego illusions
        > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming as
        > well
        > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big
        > inflated
        > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so
        > would
        > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making
        > businesses.
        > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called
        > teachers),
        > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices & investments
        > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled
        > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in Oz),
        > in its
        > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for the
        > so
        > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.
        > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill
        > Mollison
        > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in
        > person in
        > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the
        > originators
        > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not least,
        > the
        > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-
        > > >
        > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your own
        > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about plants &
        > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from
        > getting
        > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops &
        > foods.
        > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the
        > biggest
        > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation began!!!,
        > so
        > > > long ago.
        > > >
        > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road back to
        > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at
        > conferences
        > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.
        > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and evidence,
        > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are made
        > clear
        > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in Mollison's &
        > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many continuing
        > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;
        > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult and
        > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits! - i
        > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this group
        > for
        > > > a best example - just search this group.
        > > >
        > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural
        > farming
        > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.
        > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many PermaCult
        > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and make
        > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural farmers
        > choose
        > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students and
        > selling
        > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a
        > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from
        > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.
        > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, & others.
        > can
        > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural
        > farming,
        > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.
        > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather
        > than
        > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here, detailed
        > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from people
        > you
        > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar habitats
        > to
        > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.
        > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet
        > arena,
        > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own
        > off-topic
        > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).
        > > >
        > > > with kind love for all life,
        > > >
        > > > Jase.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%
        > 40yahoogroups.com>,
        >
        > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hello all,
        > > > >
        > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply
        > perused
        > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One Straw
        > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books. I
        > live in
        > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers classes
        > in
        > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to
        > nothing
        > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are the
        > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods
        > espoused
        > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with the
        > idea
        > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive
        > into it?
        > > > >
        > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.
        > > > >
        > > > > Ezell
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • duezingare
        As a woman following this forum for a year now, i would like to add my comment to this permaculture debate: ! that the only natural farming is hunter-gatherer
        Message 3 of 30 , Jan 2, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          As a woman following this forum for a year now, i would like to add my comment to this permaculture debate:
          ! that the only natural farming is hunter-gatherer is not only a male perspective, but a carnivore one as well: it is assuming that
          because judeo-christian-muslims (all one god,jehovah)developed one kind of civilisation, so did the rest of humanity.
          !if we are trying to copy nature,(eco-logy being a science)we are looking at bees and ants as much as mammals, and not forgetting that we have eliminated all predators that hunt and gather humans.
          !personally, i have tried to follow a perma-cult course(10 day design)to learn, and have found arrogance and personalities coming way before principles,nullifying any good will and causing a lot of arguments (as you can see, they have started on this forum as well)instead of sound practice.
          !in the Fukuoka method i have so far only heard interesting, mostly anonymous exchanges, that testify to an earnest conscience of the dire world situation, both in terms of poverty and of pollution.

          off course there are many good and honest people in the permaculture organisations, and it is them that should be concerned with their more oppressive representatives.
          In italy, where i am, there has been a similar debate as the fukuoka followers have been asked by the permaculturists to join forces:
          The problem, as an observer, seems to revolve around the permaculturist practice of running courses around the world, that range from 300$-here in italy- to 1500$ in the U.S.A., mexico, thailand,belize..for 10 days camping! That is 30 to 150$ A DAY.
          To my italian pockets, and shirley to the indians, this is NOT sustainable practice, but seems to sustain a growing number of "instructors", that even thou brag about having a permaculture farm, seem to be traveling too much on courses to be farming:
          In Italy there is a Permaculture School in Milano: i have wwoofed on the farm of the president, and can testify to the lifestyle:there was a small abandoned garden,that in august yielded some dried up bellpeppers, and some chickens that were left to us to open and close, as the permaculturist were in germany for a strawbale meeting of a couple of weeks. The wwoofers before us had worked primarly in the kitchen, as the "farm" was running a course..
          We have had similar disappointing experiences in france and england.
          The OGM threat is obviously much greater and more dangerous, but until the permaculture world can develop an ethical framework of development, it seems wiser to continue without grafting.
          Anyway, conflict resolution is part of their courses, under "community development" so anybody that is interested in their methods,i'm sure can calmly grow on their own, without argumentative or inflammatory discussions, and pay if they like and can.



          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...> wrote:
          >
          > One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you
          > and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a
          > lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to
          > wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here in
          > Ohio.
          >
          > Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!
          >
          > Frank
          >
          > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should
          > > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.
          > >
          > > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle and
          > > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and carbon
          > > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now when
          > > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced 300
          > > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.
          > >
          > > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the immediate
          > > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and feed
          > > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will go a
          > > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.
          > >
          > > All the best to everybody in 2010!
          > >
          > > Jim Snyder
          > > Edmore, MI
          > > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you
          > > feel
          > > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty
          > > much
          > > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming to
          > > the
          > > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in is
          > > the
          > > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps you
          > > > should read what you have just written from another's point of view. You
          > > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously
          > > defend
          > > > it.
          > > >
          > > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not be
          > > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able
          > > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.
          > > >
          > > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion. Seriously,
          > > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The next
          > > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists, who
          > > go
          > > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and ringing
          > > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.
          > > >
          > > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all. The
          > > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening up
          > > til
          > > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant seeds,
          > > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are overcoming
          > > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of
          > > > multitudinous species all together.
          > > >
          > > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering lifestyle,
          > > > come down off the soapbox, please.
          > > >
          > > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new
          > > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?
          > > >
          > > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try to
          > > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are
          > > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god. He's
          > > > just a guy with an interesting idea.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks,
          > > >
          > > > Frank
          > > >
          > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,
          > > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.
          > > > > Please if you will read this introductory page
          > > > > http://www.naturalfarming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' & Panos' &
          > > > > others in Greece.
          > > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this introduction,
          > > even
          > > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other cult
          > > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for
          > > > > PermCult...ure).
          > > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming the
          > > new
          > > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.
          > > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s, about
          > > 20
          > > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist
          > > myself,
          > > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.
          > > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in their
          > > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -
          > > > > plagiarised:
          > > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true originator
          > > or
          > > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.
          > > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying goes.
          > > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't good,
          > > as
          > > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term over
          > > your
          > > > > own learning.
          > > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use from
          > > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends, don't
          > > buy any
          > > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn') IMHO,
          > > don't
          > > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a
          > > follower of
          > > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to buy
          > > some
          > > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you need &
          > > we
          > > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be borrowed
          > > from
          > > > > the library too.
          > > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers.
          > > Trying to
          > > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in
          > > > > selfish-greed-hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego illusions
          > > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming as
          > > well
          > > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big
          > > inflated
          > > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so
          > > would
          > > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making
          > > businesses.
          > > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called
          > > teachers),
          > > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices & investments
          > > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled
          > > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in Oz),
          > > in its
          > > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for the
          > > so
          > > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.
          > > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill
          > > Mollison
          > > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in
          > > person in
          > > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the
          > > originators
          > > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not least,
          > > the
          > > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-
          > > > >
          > > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your own
          > > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about plants &
          > > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from
          > > getting
          > > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops &
          > > foods.
          > > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the
          > > biggest
          > > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation began!!!,
          > > so
          > > > > long ago.
          > > > >
          > > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road back to
          > > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at
          > > conferences
          > > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.
          > > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and evidence,
          > > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are made
          > > clear
          > > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in Mollison's &
          > > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many continuing
          > > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;
          > > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult and
          > > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits! - i
          > > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this group
          > > for
          > > > > a best example - just search this group.
          > > > >
          > > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural
          > > farming
          > > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.
          > > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many PermaCult
          > > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and make
          > > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural farmers
          > > choose
          > > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students and
          > > selling
          > > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a
          > > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from
          > > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.
          > > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, & others.
          > > can
          > > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural
          > > farming,
          > > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.
          > > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather
          > > than
          > > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here, detailed
          > > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from people
          > > you
          > > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar habitats
          > > to
          > > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.
          > > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet
          > > arena,
          > > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own
          > > off-topic
          > > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).
          > > > >
          > > > > with kind love for all life,
          > > > >
          > > > > Jase.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%
          > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
          > >
          > > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Hello all,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply
          > > perused
          > > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One Straw
          > > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books. I
          > > live in
          > > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers classes
          > > in
          > > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to
          > > nothing
          > > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are the
          > > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods
          > > espoused
          > > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with the
          > > idea
          > > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive
          > > into it?
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Ezell
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • James
          Hi Frank - folks are always welcome to come and visit. I do my best to share my knowledge and what I have learned the last 40 years (much of it through trial
          Message 4 of 30 , Jan 2, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Frank - folks are always welcome to come and visit. I do my best to share my knowledge and what I have learned the last 40 years (much of it through trial and error)on my website for sustainable farming at: http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/

            You'll find a lot of photos there also. I don't refer to anybody as a ratbag either for using alternative methods. ;-) Why can't we just all get along and realize it will take much teamwork to address future world challenges?

            Robert Rodale was my mentor although have recently begun to read all I can about Fukuoka.

            I disagree with those they do not understand the value and benefit of compost especially on revitalizing poor and abused soils. I plan to turn most of my excess in the future into worm bedding and then use the compost and worm casting in our organic orchards, vineyards and gardens.

            Small holdings can be extremely productive. I am considering giving up our 80 acre rental ground up the road this year to concentrate strictly on the 20 acres we have at the home farm. I can quadruple my yields with irrigation and with less need for fossil fuels and heavy metal.

            Happy New Year!

            Jim Snyder
            Edmore, MI
            http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/

            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...> wrote:
            >
            > One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you
            > and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a
            > lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to
            > wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here in
            > Ohio.
            >
            > Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!
            >
            > Frank
            >
            > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should
            > > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.
            > >
            > > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle and
            > > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and carbon
            > > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now when
            > > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced 300
            > > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.
            > >
            > > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the immediate
            > > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and feed
            > > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will go a
            > > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.
            > >
            > > All the best to everybody in 2010!
            > >
            > > Jim Snyder
            > > Edmore, MI
            > > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you
            > > feel
            > > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty
            > > much
            > > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming to
            > > the
            > > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in is
            > > the
            > > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps you
            > > > should read what you have just written from another's point of view. You
            > > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously
            > > defend
            > > > it.
            > > >
            > > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not be
            > > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able
            > > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.
            > > >
            > > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion. Seriously,
            > > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The next
            > > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists, who
            > > go
            > > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and ringing
            > > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.
            > > >
            > > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all. The
            > > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening up
            > > til
            > > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant seeds,
            > > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are overcoming
            > > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of
            > > > multitudinous species all together.
            > > >
            > > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering lifestyle,
            > > > come down off the soapbox, please.
            > > >
            > > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new
            > > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?
            > > >
            > > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try to
            > > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are
            > > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god. He's
            > > > just a guy with an interesting idea.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks,
            > > >
            > > > Frank
            > > >
            > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,
            > > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.
            > > > > Please if you will read this introductory page
            > > > > http://www.naturalfarming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' & Panos' &
            > > > > others in Greece.
            > > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this introduction,
            > > even
            > > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other cult
            > > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for
            > > > > PermCult...ure).
            > > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming the
            > > new
            > > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.
            > > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s, about
            > > 20
            > > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist
            > > myself,
            > > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.
            > > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in their
            > > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -
            > > > > plagiarised:
            > > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true originator
            > > or
            > > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.
            > > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying goes.
            > > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't good,
            > > as
            > > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term over
            > > your
            > > > > own learning.
            > > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use from
            > > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends, don't
            > > buy any
            > > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn') IMHO,
            > > don't
            > > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a
            > > follower of
            > > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to buy
            > > some
            > > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you need &
            > > we
            > > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be borrowed
            > > from
            > > > > the library too.
            > > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers.
            > > Trying to
            > > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in
            > > > > selfish-greed-hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego illusions
            > > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming as
            > > well
            > > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big
            > > inflated
            > > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so
            > > would
            > > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making
            > > businesses.
            > > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called
            > > teachers),
            > > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices & investments
            > > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled
            > > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in Oz),
            > > in its
            > > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for the
            > > so
            > > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.
            > > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill
            > > Mollison
            > > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in
            > > person in
            > > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the
            > > originators
            > > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not least,
            > > the
            > > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-
            > > > >
            > > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your own
            > > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about plants &
            > > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from
            > > getting
            > > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops &
            > > foods.
            > > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the
            > > biggest
            > > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation began!!!,
            > > so
            > > > > long ago.
            > > > >
            > > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road back to
            > > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at
            > > conferences
            > > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.
            > > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and evidence,
            > > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are made
            > > clear
            > > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in Mollison's &
            > > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many continuing
            > > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;
            > > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult and
            > > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits! - i
            > > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this group
            > > for
            > > > > a best example - just search this group.
            > > > >
            > > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural
            > > farming
            > > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.
            > > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many PermaCult
            > > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and make
            > > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural farmers
            > > choose
            > > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students and
            > > selling
            > > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a
            > > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from
            > > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.
            > > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, & others.
            > > can
            > > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural
            > > farming,
            > > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.
            > > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather
            > > than
            > > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here, detailed
            > > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from people
            > > you
            > > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar habitats
            > > to
            > > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.
            > > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet
            > > arena,
            > > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own
            > > off-topic
            > > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).
            > > > >
            > > > > with kind love for all life,
            > > > >
            > > > > Jase.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%
            > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
            > >
            > > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hello all,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply
            > > perused
            > > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One Straw
            > > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books. I
            > > live in
            > > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers classes
            > > in
            > > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to
            > > nothing
            > > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are the
            > > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods
            > > espoused
            > > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with the
            > > idea
            > > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive
            > > into it?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Ezell
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Robert Monie
            Hi, Well, you are correct in saying that most of the Permaculturalists charge too much for their courses and don t really teach much that can be easily or
            Message 5 of 30 , Jan 2, 2010
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              Hi,

              Well, you are correct in saying that most of the Permaculturalists charge too much for their courses and don't really teach much that can be easily or cheaply applied. That is how they choose to market their "product" these days, and that is most unfortunate. I have never paid to attend one of their seminars and probably never will.  I learn more by wandering around ethnic farmers' plots and talking to them, usually for free. But Korn's point seems to be that at their root, Mollison and Fukuoka both wanted to get nature to work to grow food instead of relying on external inputs, plowing, and chemical fertilizer.

              No one's approach, including that of Fukuoka is perfect or perfectly adaptable worldwide. For one thing, Fukuoka did use fertilizer, often in large amounts, if you count chicken manure as fertilizer. Whenever I discuss Fukuoka's approach with a stock-free vegan grower, that is the first thing they tell me: "well, we may use carbonatite or basalt rock powder or seedmeals like alfalfa meal and seedweed like kelp, but at least we admit it and don't claim that we are doing "no fertilizer" gardening."  Of course, being a vegan myself I agree with them.  But we don't sling names like "ratbag" at Fukuoka because we disagree with him about something.

              You are also correct about the hunter-gatherer myth; it is an old-husband's tale meant to disguise the fact that women did all the work in ancient societies and men got all the credit for it.

              Happy farming and happy new year!

              Bob Monie
              New Orleans, LA
              Zone 8

              --- On Sat, 1/2/10, duezingare <duezingare@...> wrote:

              From: duezingare <duezingare@...>
              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: What is the Difference?
              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 4:30 AM







               









              As a woman following this forum for a year now, i would like to add my comment to this permaculture debate:

              ! that the only natural farming is hunter-gatherer is not only a male perspective, but a carnivore one as well: it is assuming that

              because judeo-christian- muslims (all one god,jehovah) developed one kind of civilisation, so did the rest of humanity.

              !if we are trying to copy nature,(eco- logy being a science)we are looking at bees and ants as much as mammals, and not forgetting that we have eliminated all predators that hunt and gather humans.

              !personally, i have tried to follow a perma-cult course(10 day design)to learn, and have found arrogance and personalities coming way before principles,nullifyi ng any good will and causing a lot of arguments (as you can see, they have started on this forum as well)instead of sound practice.

              !in the Fukuoka method i have so far only heard interesting, mostly anonymous exchanges, that testify to an earnest conscience of the dire world situation, both in terms of poverty and of pollution.



              off course there are many good and honest people in the permaculture organisations, and it is them that should be concerned with their more oppressive representatives.

              In italy, where i am, there has been a similar debate as the fukuoka followers have been asked by the permaculturists to join forces:

              The problem, as an observer, seems to revolve around the permaculturist practice of running courses around the world, that range from 300$-here in italy- to 1500$ in the U.S.A., mexico, thailand,belize. .for 10 days camping! That is 30 to 150$ A DAY.

              To my italian pockets, and shirley to the indians, this is NOT sustainable practice, but seems to sustain a growing number of "instructors" , that even thou brag about having a permaculture farm, seem to be traveling too much on courses to be farming:

              In Italy there is a Permaculture School in Milano: i have wwoofed on the farm of the president, and can testify to the lifestyle:there was a small abandoned garden,that in august yielded some dried up bellpeppers, and some chickens that were left to us to open and close, as the permaculturist were in germany for a strawbale meeting of a couple of weeks. The wwoofers before us had worked primarly in the kitchen, as the "farm" was running a course..

              We have had similar disappointing experiences in france and england.

              The OGM threat is obviously much greater and more dangerous, but until the permaculture world can develop an ethical framework of development, it seems wiser to continue without grafting.

              Anyway, conflict resolution is part of their courses, under "community development" so anybody that is interested in their methods,i'm sure can calmly grow on their own, without argumentative or inflammatory discussions, and pay if they like and can.



              --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@... > wrote:

              >

              > One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you

              > and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a

              > lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to

              > wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here in

              > Ohio.

              >

              > Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!

              >

              > Frank

              >

              > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:

              >

              > >

              > >

              > > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should

              > > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.

              > >

              > > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle and

              > > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and carbon

              > > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now when

              > > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced 300

              > > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.

              > >

              > > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the immediate

              > > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and feed

              > > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will go a

              > > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.

              > >

              > > All the best to everybody in 2010!

              > >

              > > Jim Snyder

              > > Edmore, MI

              > > http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/

              > >

              > >

              > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com <fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com>,

              > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@> wrote:

              > > >

              > > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you

              > > feel

              > > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty

              > > much

              > > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming to

              > > the

              > > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in is

              > > the

              > > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps you

              > > > should read what you have just written from another's point of view. You

              > > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously

              > > defend

              > > > it.

              > > >

              > > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not be

              > > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able

              > > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.

              > > >

              > > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion. Seriously,

              > > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The next

              > > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists, who

              > > go

              > > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and ringing

              > > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.

              > > >

              > > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all. The

              > > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening up

              > > til

              > > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant seeds,

              > > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are overcoming

              > > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of

              > > > multitudinous species all together.

              > > >

              > > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering lifestyle,

              > > > come down off the soapbox, please.

              > > >

              > > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new

              > > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?

              > > >

              > > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try to

              > > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are

              > > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god.. He's

              > > > just a guy with an interesting idea.

              > > >

              > > > Thanks,

              > > >

              > > > Frank

              > > >

              > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@ > wrote:

              > > >

              > > > >

              > > > >

              > > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,

              > > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.

              > > > > Please if you will read this introductory page

              > > > > http://www.naturalf arming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' & Panos' &

              > > > > others in Greece.

              > > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this introduction,

              > > even

              > > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other cult

              > > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for

              > > > > PermCult...ure) .

              > > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming the

              > > new

              > > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.

              > > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s, about

              > > 20

              > > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist

              > > myself,

              > > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.

              > > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in their

              > > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -

              > > > > plagiarised:

              > > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true originator

              > > or

              > > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.

              > > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying goes.

              > > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't good,

              > > as

              > > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term over

              > > your

              > > > > own learning.

              > > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use from

              > > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends, don't

              > > buy any

              > > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn') IMHO,

              > > don't

              > > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a

              > > follower of

              > > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to buy

              > > some

              > > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you need &

              > > we

              > > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be borrowed

              > > from

              > > > > the library too.

              > > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers..

              > > Trying to

              > > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in

              > > > > selfish-greed- hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego illusions

              > > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming as

              > > well

              > > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big

              > > inflated

              > > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so

              > > would

              > > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making

              > > businesses.

              > > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called

              > > teachers),

              > > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices & investments

              > > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled

              > > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in Oz),

              > > in its

              > > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for the

              > > so

              > > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.

              > > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill

              > > Mollison

              > > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in

              > > person in

              > > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the

              > > originators

              > > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not least,

              > > the

              > > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-

              > > > >

              > > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your own

              > > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about plants &

              > > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from

              > > getting

              > > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops &

              > > foods.

              > > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the

              > > biggest

              > > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation began!!!,

              > > so

              > > > > long ago.

              > > > >

              > > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road back to

              > > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at

              > > conferences

              > > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.

              > > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and evidence,

              > > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are made

              > > clear

              > > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in Mollison's &

              > > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many continuing

              > > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;

              > > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult and

              > > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits! - i

              > > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this group

              > > for

              > > > > a best example - just search this group.

              > > > >

              > > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural

              > > farming

              > > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.

              > > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many PermaCult

              > > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and make

              > > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural farmers

              > > choose

              > > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students and

              > > selling

              > > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a

              > > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from

              > > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.

              > > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, & others.

              > > can

              > > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural

              > > farming,

              > > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.

              > > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather

              > > than

              > > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here, detailed

              > > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from people

              > > you

              > > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar habitats

              > > to

              > > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.

              > > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet

              > > arena,

              > > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own

              > > off-topic

              > > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).

              > > > >

              > > > > with kind love for all life,

              > > > >

              > > > > Jase.

              > > > >

              > > > >

              > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com<fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com><fukuoka_ farming%

              > > 40yahoogroups. com>,

              > >

              > > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@ > wrote:

              > > > > >

              > > > > > Hello all,

              > > > > >

              > > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply

              > > perused

              > > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One Straw

              > > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books.. I

              > > live in

              > > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers classes

              > > in

              > > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to

              > > nothing

              > > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are the

              > > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods

              > > espoused

              > > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with the

              > > idea

              > > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive

              > > into it?

              > > > > >

              > > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.

              > > > > >

              > > > > > Ezell

              > > > > >

              > > > > >

              > > > > >

              > > > > >

              > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              > > > > >

              > > > >

              > > > >

              > > > >

              > > >

              > > >

              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              > > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              >

              >

              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              >






















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • shultonus
              ... Once again, Bob Monie provides a clear voice of reason! For me, I often am frustrated by the permaculture movement as well. Lack of local working models is
              Message 6 of 30 , Jan 2, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > Well, you are correct in saying that most of the Permaculturalists charge too much for their courses and don't really teach much that can be easily or cheaply applied. That is how they choose to market their "product" these days, and that is most unfortunate.


                Once again, Bob Monie provides a clear voice of reason!

                For me, I often am frustrated by the permaculture movement as well.
                Lack of local working models is perhaps the most problematic symptom of where both permaculture AND fukuoka's knowledge and promise fall short.

                For me, trying to teach something in a day or week or 10-day course is problematic, when the the knowledge purported to be taught contains complexities and uniqueness of ecology. Surely if we were to teach this knowledge in standard format- a college perhaps- Several courses would be taught.
                Intro to soils- emphasis on soil ecology
                Into to ecology- emphasis on insects and plants
                Intro to horticulture- the plants used by permaculture
                Plant ecology- theory of how guilds operate
                Intro to landscape design- theory of why spacial orientation is important
                Then perhpas a practicum at a working farm.

                That being said,
                Edible Forest Gardens by Jacke and Toensmeier
                is an EXcellent resource on all of these subjects
                While it focuses on temperate permaculture,
                it is well written and documented

                Indeed, another problem I like to point out is it takes years for for a site to extablish productivity when following either a fukuoka or permaculture model... most people can afford to wait,
                and perhaps this is where permaculturists feel the need to teach-while their site is developing.

                .. another point is that if you follow a well documented site like pathtofreedom (dervaes family) you notice that as they add perrennial components, their production seems to be falling slightly..

                This is not a bad thing,.. it is simply something that you need to be aware of.. and prepared for in planning.

                certainly, the skills learned by guerilla gardeners, the food not lawns (edible lanscapers), permaculturists, fukuoka's all should necessarily share local knowledge

                -otherwise, we will perpetually be re-inventing the wheel...

                - A final note- it seems that the same people are often the center of much heated debate- and indeed this is often because of the strong conviction in their own beliefs...

                what I think is important though is to piece-mail the conversations - to find why these beliefs matter to us - what ever our label.

                ... at the end of the day we should ask-
                WHY

                why did that work for them
                will it work for me
                Should I pursue this course

                Some courses are better than others- this is truth-
                it takes much meditation to determine this
              • Robert Monie
                Hi Jim, We need more farmers with land and experience like you willing to try some of Fukuoka s ideas in the US to see to what extent they can be made to work
                Message 7 of 30 , Jan 2, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Jim,

                  We need more farmers with land and experience like you willing to try some of Fukuoka's ideas in the US to see to what extent they can be made to work here and whether they are just for backyard and  small-lot urban farming enthusiasts like me or may possibly have at least small-scale commercial potential as well.  Except for Helen Atthowe in Montana, I don't know of anybody who has received either government or private enterprise funding to actually try out Fukuoka Farming in this country, do you?  Certainly no such information has turned up on this list since its inception more than 10 years ago. If you could establish a few acres of experimental Fukuoka farming and have the project at least partially open for public inquiry and viewing, many people might be interested and possibly even want to contribute financially or otherwise to your efforts.

                  Bob Monie
                  New Orleans, LA
                  Zone 8

                  --- On Sat, 1/2/10, James <jim@...> wrote:

                  From: James <jim@...>
                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: What is the Difference?
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 7:42 AM







                   









                  Hi Frank - folks are always welcome to come and visit. I do my best to share my knowledge and what I have learned the last 40 years (much of it through trial and error)on my website for sustainable farming at: http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/



                  You'll find a lot of photos there also. I don't refer to anybody as a ratbag either for using alternative methods. ;-) Why can't we just all get along and realize it will take much teamwork to address future world challenges?



                  Robert Rodale was my mentor although have recently begun to read all I can about Fukuoka.



                  I disagree with those they do not understand the value and benefit of compost especially on revitalizing poor and abused soils. I plan to turn most of my excess in the future into worm bedding and then use the compost and worm casting in our organic orchards, vineyards and gardens.



                  Small holdings can be extremely productive. I am considering giving up our 80 acre rental ground up the road this year to concentrate strictly on the 20 acres we have at the home farm. I can quadruple my yields with irrigation and with less need for fossil fuels and heavy metal.



                  Happy New Year!



                  Jim Snyder

                  Edmore, MI

                  http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/



                  --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@... > wrote:

                  >

                  > One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you

                  > and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a

                  > lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to

                  > wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here in

                  > Ohio.

                  >

                  > Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!

                  >

                  > Frank

                  >

                  > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:

                  >

                  > >

                  > >

                  > > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should

                  > > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.

                  > >

                  > > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle and

                  > > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and carbon

                  > > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now when

                  > > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced 300

                  > > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.

                  > >

                  > > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the immediate

                  > > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and feed

                  > > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will go a

                  > > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.

                  > >

                  > > All the best to everybody in 2010!

                  > >

                  > > Jim Snyder

                  > > Edmore, MI

                  > > http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/

                  > >

                  > >

                  > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com <fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com>,

                  > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@> wrote:

                  > > >

                  > > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you

                  > > feel

                  > > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty

                  > > much

                  > > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming to

                  > > the

                  > > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in is

                  > > the

                  > > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps you

                  > > > should read what you have just written from another's point of view. You

                  > > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously

                  > > defend

                  > > > it.

                  > > >

                  > > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not be

                  > > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able

                  > > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.

                  > > >

                  > > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion. Seriously,

                  > > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The next

                  > > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists, who

                  > > go

                  > > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and ringing

                  > > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.

                  > > >

                  > > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all. The

                  > > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening up

                  > > til

                  > > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant seeds,

                  > > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are overcoming

                  > > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of

                  > > > multitudinous species all together.

                  > > >

                  > > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering lifestyle,

                  > > > come down off the soapbox, please.

                  > > >

                  > > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new

                  > > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?

                  > > >

                  > > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try to

                  > > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are

                  > > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god.. He's

                  > > > just a guy with an interesting idea.

                  > > >

                  > > > Thanks,

                  > > >

                  > > > Frank

                  > > >

                  > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@ > wrote:

                  > > >

                  > > > >

                  > > > >

                  > > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,

                  > > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.

                  > > > > Please if you will read this introductory page

                  > > > > http://www.naturalf arming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' & Panos' &

                  > > > > others in Greece.

                  > > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this introduction,

                  > > even

                  > > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other cult

                  > > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for

                  > > > > PermCult...ure) .

                  > > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming the

                  > > new

                  > > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.

                  > > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s, about

                  > > 20

                  > > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist

                  > > myself,

                  > > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.

                  > > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in their

                  > > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -

                  > > > > plagiarised:

                  > > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true originator

                  > > or

                  > > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.

                  > > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying goes.

                  > > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't good,

                  > > as

                  > > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term over

                  > > your

                  > > > > own learning.

                  > > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use from

                  > > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends, don't

                  > > buy any

                  > > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn') IMHO,

                  > > don't

                  > > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a

                  > > follower of

                  > > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to buy

                  > > some

                  > > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you need &

                  > > we

                  > > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be borrowed

                  > > from

                  > > > > the library too.

                  > > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers..

                  > > Trying to

                  > > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in

                  > > > > selfish-greed- hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego illusions

                  > > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming as

                  > > well

                  > > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big

                  > > inflated

                  > > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so

                  > > would

                  > > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making

                  > > businesses.

                  > > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called

                  > > teachers),

                  > > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices & investments

                  > > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled

                  > > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in Oz),

                  > > in its

                  > > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for the

                  > > so

                  > > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.

                  > > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill

                  > > Mollison

                  > > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in

                  > > person in

                  > > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the

                  > > originators

                  > > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not least,

                  > > the

                  > > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-

                  > > > >

                  > > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your own

                  > > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about plants &

                  > > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from

                  > > getting

                  > > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops &

                  > > foods.

                  > > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the

                  > > biggest

                  > > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation began!!!,

                  > > so

                  > > > > long ago.

                  > > > >

                  > > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road back to

                  > > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at

                  > > conferences

                  > > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.

                  > > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and evidence,

                  > > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are made

                  > > clear

                  > > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in Mollison's &

                  > > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many continuing

                  > > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;

                  > > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult and

                  > > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits! - i

                  > > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this group

                  > > for

                  > > > > a best example - just search this group.

                  > > > >

                  > > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural

                  > > farming

                  > > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.

                  > > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many PermaCult

                  > > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and make

                  > > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural farmers

                  > > choose

                  > > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students and

                  > > selling

                  > > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a

                  > > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from

                  > > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.

                  > > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, & others.

                  > > can

                  > > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural

                  > > farming,

                  > > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.

                  > > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather

                  > > than

                  > > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here, detailed

                  > > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from people

                  > > you

                  > > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar habitats

                  > > to

                  > > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.

                  > > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet

                  > > arena,

                  > > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own

                  > > off-topic

                  > > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).

                  > > > >

                  > > > > with kind love for all life,

                  > > > >

                  > > > > Jase.

                  > > > >

                  > > > >

                  > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com<fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com><fukuoka_ farming%

                  > > 40yahoogroups. com>,

                  > >

                  > > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@ > wrote:

                  > > > > >

                  > > > > > Hello all,

                  > > > > >

                  > > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply

                  > > perused

                  > > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One Straw

                  > > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books.. I

                  > > live in

                  > > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers classes

                  > > in

                  > > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to

                  > > nothing

                  > > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are the

                  > > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods

                  > > espoused

                  > > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with the

                  > > idea

                  > > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive

                  > > into it?

                  > > > > >

                  > > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.

                  > > > > >

                  > > > > > Ezell

                  > > > > >

                  > > > > >

                  > > > > >

                  > > > > >

                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  > > > > >

                  > > > >

                  > > > >

                  > > > >

                  > > >

                  > > >

                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  > > >

                  > >

                  > >

                  > >

                  >

                  >

                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  >






















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • kornld45
                  Hi, all, Hope you don t mind if I join in the conversation. What s all this nitpicking? Here s my take on the natural farming/permaculture thing.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jan 2, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi, all, Hope you don't mind if I join in the conversation. What's all this nitpicking? Here's my take on the natural farming/permaculture thing.

                    Fukuoka-san attended the 2nd International Permaculture Convention in about 1985 at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington. Bill Mollison was there as well as Wes Jackson and others. He liked Bill personally but was so-so on permaculture especially all the talk about using heavy equipment. What he loved was seeing 750 bright, mostly young idealistic people there all with the idea that they wanted to heal the earth. Remember that Fukuoka worked in isolation for most of his life. He was considered an eccentric at best by the agricultural and scientific communities until the One Straw-Revolution became popular worldwide.

                    Obviously there are big differences between natural farming and permaculture. Natural farming's source is the non-moving center of nature. Permaculture uses the human intellect to consciously design a system which is as close as possible to nature as observed by the practitioner. Permaculture ends up being a kind of ecological agriculture. Not bad considering the alternative.

                    Let me give an example of what I am getting at. Fukuoka was shocked in 1979 when he made his first trip outside Japan. His first stop was California. He immediately saw that people had trashed the place by over grazing, over logging and terrible agricultural techniques. Later he found more or less the same thing everywhere he traveled. "We need to regreen the earth as quickly as possible. There's not a moment to waste," he said. He noticed that Australian trees seemed to do very well here. Sure, similar climate, recently impoverished soil, lack of water and so forth. He also loved n-fixing shrubs like scotch broom since they were so effective at healing damaged land. Scotch broom, of course, is considered a horrible invasive weed around here.

                    So native plant people were all over him about non-native species. His reply was that it is too late for those considerations. First, the world is global already and it will never go back. If there are remote areas with all native species they should be preserved as such. But for the other 95% of the land we haven't got a moment to loose. He said, "If we continue talking about questions like this instead of getting out there and repairing the damage, improving the soil, planting trees, any trees that will grow but especially fruit and nut trees, we will all be dead before we finish this conversation."

                    So here's my point. We could go on all day hashing over the differences between permaculture and Fukuoka's natural farming. I think permaculture's heart is in the right place. People who take an introductory course in permaculture are mainly young idealistic people or middle-aged retirees who want to do something possitive with their lives. It is a place for them to start and the material is pretty basic. Most of these people leave the courses inspired and some go on to do wonderful things.

                    I'm not trying to be an appoligist for permaculture. I just think that whatever the differences, and again they are pretty significant, natural farming and permaculture are on the same team. Why spend all this time and energy bashing and nitpicking. Permaculture has a worlwide network which means in the end that more trees will be planted, more food will be produced locally, less soil will be tilled and more people will at least have the chance to become closer to nature. That's a good thing. In the end that is what Fukuoka said about permaculture as well.

                    --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Jim,
                    >
                    > We need more farmers with land and experience like you willing to try some of Fukuoka's ideas in the US to see to what extent they can be made to work here and whether they are just for backyard and  small-lot urban farming enthusiasts like me or may possibly have at least small-scale commercial potential as well.  Except for Helen Atthowe in Montana, I don't know of anybody who has received either government or private enterprise funding to actually try out Fukuoka Farming in this country, do you?  Certainly no such information has turned up on this list since its inception more than 10 years ago. If you could establish a few acres of experimental Fukuoka farming and have the project at least partially open for public inquiry and viewing, many people might be interested and possibly even want to contribute financially or otherwise to your efforts.
                    >
                    > Bob Monie
                    > New Orleans, LA
                    > Zone 8
                    >
                    > --- On Sat, 1/2/10, James <jim@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: James <jim@...>
                    > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: What is the Difference?
                    > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 7:42 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Frank - folks are always welcome to come and visit. I do my best to share my knowledge and what I have learned the last 40 years (much of it through trial and error)on my website for sustainable farming at: http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > You'll find a lot of photos there also. I don't refer to anybody as a ratbag either for using alternative methods. ;-) Why can't we just all get along and realize it will take much teamwork to address future world challenges?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Robert Rodale was my mentor although have recently begun to read all I can about Fukuoka.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I disagree with those they do not understand the value and benefit of compost especially on revitalizing poor and abused soils. I plan to turn most of my excess in the future into worm bedding and then use the compost and worm casting in our organic orchards, vineyards and gardens.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Small holdings can be extremely productive. I am considering giving up our 80 acre rental ground up the road this year to concentrate strictly on the 20 acres we have at the home farm. I can quadruple my yields with irrigation and with less need for fossil fuels and heavy metal.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Happy New Year!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Jim Snyder
                    >
                    > Edmore, MI
                    >
                    > http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@ > wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you
                    >
                    > > and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a
                    >
                    > > lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to
                    >
                    > > wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here in
                    >
                    > > Ohio.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Frank
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should
                    >
                    > > > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle and
                    >
                    > > > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and carbon
                    >
                    > > > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now when
                    >
                    > > > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced 300
                    >
                    > > > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the immediate
                    >
                    > > > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and feed
                    >
                    > > > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will go a
                    >
                    > > > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > All the best to everybody in 2010!
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > Jim Snyder
                    >
                    > > > Edmore, MI
                    >
                    > > > http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com <fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                    >
                    > > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@> wrote:
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you
                    >
                    > > > feel
                    >
                    > > > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty
                    >
                    > > > much
                    >
                    > > > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming to
                    >
                    > > > the
                    >
                    > > > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in is
                    >
                    > > > the
                    >
                    > > > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps you
                    >
                    > > > > should read what you have just written from another's point of view. You
                    >
                    > > > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously
                    >
                    > > > defend
                    >
                    > > > > it.
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not be
                    >
                    > > > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able
                    >
                    > > > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion. Seriously,
                    >
                    > > > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The next
                    >
                    > > > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists, who
                    >
                    > > > go
                    >
                    > > > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and ringing
                    >
                    > > > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all. The
                    >
                    > > > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening up
                    >
                    > > > til
                    >
                    > > > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant seeds,
                    >
                    > > > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are overcoming
                    >
                    > > > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of
                    >
                    > > > > multitudinous species all together.
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering lifestyle,
                    >
                    > > > > come down off the soapbox, please.
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new
                    >
                    > > > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try to
                    >
                    > > > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are
                    >
                    > > > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god.. He's
                    >
                    > > > > just a guy with an interesting idea.
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > Thanks,
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > Frank
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@ > wrote:
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,
                    >
                    > > > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.
                    >
                    > > > > > Please if you will read this introductory page
                    >
                    > > > > > http://www.naturalf arming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' & Panos' &
                    >
                    > > > > > others in Greece.
                    >
                    > > > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this introduction,
                    >
                    > > > even
                    >
                    > > > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other cult
                    >
                    > > > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for
                    >
                    > > > > > PermCult...ure) .
                    >
                    > > > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming the
                    >
                    > > > new
                    >
                    > > > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.
                    >
                    > > > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s, about
                    >
                    > > > 20
                    >
                    > > > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist
                    >
                    > > > myself,
                    >
                    > > > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.
                    >
                    > > > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in their
                    >
                    > > > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -
                    >
                    > > > > > plagiarised:
                    >
                    > > > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true originator
                    >
                    > > > or
                    >
                    > > > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.
                    >
                    > > > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying goes.
                    >
                    > > > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't good,
                    >
                    > > > as
                    >
                    > > > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term over
                    >
                    > > > your
                    >
                    > > > > > own learning.
                    >
                    > > > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use from
                    >
                    > > > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends, don't
                    >
                    > > > buy any
                    >
                    > > > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn') IMHO,
                    >
                    > > > don't
                    >
                    > > > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a
                    >
                    > > > follower of
                    >
                    > > > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to buy
                    >
                    > > > some
                    >
                    > > > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you need &
                    >
                    > > > we
                    >
                    > > > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be borrowed
                    >
                    > > > from
                    >
                    > > > > > the library too.
                    >
                    > > > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers..
                    >
                    > > > Trying to
                    >
                    > > > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in
                    >
                    > > > > > selfish-greed- hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego illusions
                    >
                    > > > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming as
                    >
                    > > > well
                    >
                    > > > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big
                    >
                    > > > inflated
                    >
                    > > > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so
                    >
                    > > > would
                    >
                    > > > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making
                    >
                    > > > businesses.
                    >
                    > > > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called
                    >
                    > > > teachers),
                    >
                    > > > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices & investments
                    >
                    > > > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled
                    >
                    > > > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in Oz),
                    >
                    > > > in its
                    >
                    > > > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for the
                    >
                    > > > so
                    >
                    > > > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.
                    >
                    > > > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill
                    >
                    > > > Mollison
                    >
                    > > > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in
                    >
                    > > > person in
                    >
                    > > > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the
                    >
                    > > > originators
                    >
                    > > > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not least,
                    >
                    > > > the
                    >
                    > > > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your own
                    >
                    > > > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about plants &
                    >
                    > > > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from
                    >
                    > > > getting
                    >
                    > > > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops &
                    >
                    > > > foods.
                    >
                    > > > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the
                    >
                    > > > biggest
                    >
                    > > > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation began!!!,
                    >
                    > > > so
                    >
                    > > > > > long ago.
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road back to
                    >
                    > > > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at
                    >
                    > > > conferences
                    >
                    > > > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.
                    >
                    > > > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and evidence,
                    >
                    > > > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are made
                    >
                    > > > clear
                    >
                    > > > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in Mollison's &
                    >
                    > > > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many continuing
                    >
                    > > > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;
                    >
                    > > > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult and
                    >
                    > > > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits! - i
                    >
                    > > > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this group
                    >
                    > > > for
                    >
                    > > > > > a best example - just search this group.
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural
                    >
                    > > > farming
                    >
                    > > > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.
                    >
                    > > > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many PermaCult
                    >
                    > > > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and make
                    >
                    > > > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural farmers
                    >
                    > > > choose
                    >
                    > > > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students and
                    >
                    > > > selling
                    >
                    > > > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a
                    >
                    > > > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from
                    >
                    > > > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.
                    >
                    > > > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, & others.
                    >
                    > > > can
                    >
                    > > > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural
                    >
                    > > > farming,
                    >
                    > > > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.
                    >
                    > > > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather
                    >
                    > > > than
                    >
                    > > > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here, detailed
                    >
                    > > > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from people
                    >
                    > > > you
                    >
                    > > > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar habitats
                    >
                    > > > to
                    >
                    > > > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.
                    >
                    > > > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet
                    >
                    > > > arena,
                    >
                    > > > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own
                    >
                    > > > off-topic
                    >
                    > > > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > with kind love for all life,
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > Jase.
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com<fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com><fukuoka_ farming%
                    >
                    > > > 40yahoogroups. com>,
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@ > wrote:
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > Hello all,
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply
                    >
                    > > > perused
                    >
                    > > > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One Straw
                    >
                    > > > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books.. I
                    >
                    > > > live in
                    >
                    > > > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers classes
                    >
                    > > > in
                    >
                    > > > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to
                    >
                    > > > nothing
                    >
                    > > > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are the
                    >
                    > > > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods
                    >
                    > > > espoused
                    >
                    > > > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with the
                    >
                    > > > idea
                    >
                    > > > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive
                    >
                    > > > into it?
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > Ezell
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • George
                    Bob A few thoughts of my own. I am an active member of a local permaculture society. We run 2 or 3 local events each year to spread the idea of sustainability
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jan 3, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Bob

                      A few thoughts of my own.

                      I am an active member of a local permaculture society. We run 2 or 3 local events each year to spread the idea of sustainability & p.culture. There are design courses and national coventions however that is a bit above my interest level.

                      Exactly how 'pure' our P.culture society is, I cannot stated categorically. What can I say about it however?

                      It is a local organisation stressing sustainability. It publicises the message and provides local examples and models or permaculture in action.
                      It make available at low or no costs workshops, local conventions, advice, garden tours etc for local people.
                      It emphasises simple things like backyard food growing, composting, waste recycling, water harvesting.
                      It is not for profit.
                      It does not stress sustainability as a profit making business, the idea of 'organic' is not marketing nor harnessed with capitalism consumption.

                      Regardless of permaculture as a theory, or the egos of the permaculture theorists, our local society provides hands on assistance and information for people to make their own lives and, to some extent but perhaps less than we could do, our neighbourhoods and communities more sustanable oriented. The society may punch a little below its weight and may be a little muddled in its focus. It is however part of the local sustainabiity jigsaw. That is the benefit of the application (more or less) of permaculture. That is good enough for me for the present. Increasingly we need to put forward a political economy that puts people and the planet first. Permaculture will have a role to play. We have made a start in my city.

                      rob

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Robert Monie
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 3:48 AM
                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: What is the Difference?



                      Hi,

                      Well, you are correct in saying that most of the Permaculturalists charge too much for their courses and don't really teach much that can be easily or cheaply applied. That is how they choose to market their "product" these days, and that is most unfortunate. I have never paid to attend one of their seminars and probably never will. I learn more by wandering around ethnic farmers' plots and talking to them, usually for free. But Korn's point seems to be that at their root, Mollison and Fukuoka both wanted to get nature to work to grow food instead of relying on external inputs, plowing, and chemical fertilizer.

                      No one's approach, including that of Fukuoka is perfect or perfectly adaptable worldwide. For one thing, Fukuoka did use fertilizer, often in large amounts, if you count chicken manure as fertilizer. Whenever I discuss Fukuoka's approach with a stock-free vegan grower, that is the first thing they tell me: "well, we may use carbonatite or basalt rock powder or seedmeals like alfalfa meal and seedweed like kelp, but at least we admit it and don't claim that we are doing "no fertilizer" gardening." Of course, being a vegan myself I agree with them. But we don't sling names like "ratbag" at Fukuoka because we disagree with him about something.

                      You are also correct about the hunter-gatherer myth; it is an old-husband's tale meant to disguise the fact that women did all the work in ancient societies and men got all the credit for it.

                      Happy farming and happy new year!

                      Bob Monie
                      New Orleans, LA
                      Zone 8

                      --- On Sat, 1/2/10, duezingare <duezingare@...> wrote:

                      From: duezingare <duezingare@...>
                      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: What is the Difference?
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 4:30 AM



                      As a woman following this forum for a year now, i would like to add my comment to this permaculture debate:

                      ! that the only natural farming is hunter-gatherer is not only a male perspective, but a carnivore one as well: it is assuming that

                      because judeo-christian- muslims (all one god,jehovah) developed one kind of civilisation, so did the rest of humanity.

                      !if we are trying to copy nature,(eco- logy being a science)we are looking at bees and ants as much as mammals, and not forgetting that we have eliminated all predators that hunt and gather humans.

                      !personally, i have tried to follow a perma-cult course(10 day design)to learn, and have found arrogance and personalities coming way before principles,nullifyi ng any good will and causing a lot of arguments (as you can see, they have started on this forum as well)instead of sound practice.

                      !in the Fukuoka method i have so far only heard interesting, mostly anonymous exchanges, that testify to an earnest conscience of the dire world situation, both in terms of poverty and of pollution.

                      off course there are many good and honest people in the permaculture organisations, and it is them that should be concerned with their more oppressive representatives.

                      In italy, where i am, there has been a similar debate as the fukuoka followers have been asked by the permaculturists to join forces:

                      The problem, as an observer, seems to revolve around the permaculturist practice of running courses around the world, that range from 300$-here in italy- to 1500$ in the U.S.A., mexico, thailand,belize. .for 10 days camping! That is 30 to 150$ A DAY.

                      To my italian pockets, and shirley to the indians, this is NOT sustainable practice, but seems to sustain a growing number of "instructors" , that even thou brag about having a permaculture farm, seem to be traveling too much on courses to be farming:

                      In Italy there is a Permaculture School in Milano: i have wwoofed on the farm of the president, and can testify to the lifestyle:there was a small abandoned garden,that in august yielded some dried up bellpeppers, and some chickens that were left to us to open and close, as the permaculturist were in germany for a strawbale meeting of a couple of weeks. The wwoofers before us had worked primarly in the kitchen, as the "farm" was running a course..

                      We have had similar disappointing experiences in france and england.

                      The OGM threat is obviously much greater and more dangerous, but until the permaculture world can develop an ethical framework of development, it seems wiser to continue without grafting.

                      Anyway, conflict resolution is part of their courses, under "community development" so anybody that is interested in their methods,i'm sure can calmly grow on their own, without argumentative or inflammatory discussions, and pay if they like and can.

                      --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@... > wrote:

                      >

                      > One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you

                      > and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a

                      > lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to

                      > wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here in

                      > Ohio.

                      >

                      > Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!

                      >

                      > Frank

                      >

                      > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should

                      > > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.

                      > >

                      > > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle and

                      > > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and carbon

                      > > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now when

                      > > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced 300

                      > > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.

                      > >

                      > > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the immediate

                      > > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and feed

                      > > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will go a

                      > > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.

                      > >

                      > > All the best to everybody in 2010!

                      > >

                      > > Jim Snyder

                      > > Edmore, MI

                      > > http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/

                      > >

                      > >

                      > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com <fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com>,

                      > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@> wrote:

                      > > >

                      > > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you

                      > > feel

                      > > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty

                      > > much

                      > > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming to

                      > > the

                      > > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in is

                      > > the

                      > > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps you

                      > > > should read what you have just written from another's point of view. You

                      > > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously

                      > > defend

                      > > > it.

                      > > >

                      > > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not be

                      > > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able

                      > > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.

                      > > >

                      > > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion. Seriously,

                      > > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The next

                      > > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists, who

                      > > go

                      > > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and ringing

                      > > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.

                      > > >

                      > > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all. The

                      > > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening up

                      > > til

                      > > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant seeds,

                      > > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are overcoming

                      > > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of

                      > > > multitudinous species all together.

                      > > >

                      > > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering lifestyle,

                      > > > come down off the soapbox, please.

                      > > >

                      > > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new

                      > > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?

                      > > >

                      > > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try to

                      > > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are

                      > > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god.. He's

                      > > > just a guy with an interesting idea.

                      > > >

                      > > > Thanks,

                      > > >

                      > > > Frank

                      > > >

                      > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@ > wrote:

                      > > >

                      > > > >

                      > > > >

                      > > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,

                      > > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.

                      > > > > Please if you will read this introductory page

                      > > > > http://www.naturalf arming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' & Panos' &

                      > > > > others in Greece.

                      > > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this introduction,

                      > > even

                      > > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other cult

                      > > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for

                      > > > > PermCult...ure) .

                      > > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming the

                      > > new

                      > > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.

                      > > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s, about

                      > > 20

                      > > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist

                      > > myself,

                      > > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.

                      > > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in their

                      > > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -

                      > > > > plagiarised:

                      > > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true originator

                      > > or

                      > > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.

                      > > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying goes.

                      > > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't good,

                      > > as

                      > > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term over

                      > > your

                      > > > > own learning.

                      > > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use from

                      > > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends, don't

                      > > buy any

                      > > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn') IMHO,

                      > > don't

                      > > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a

                      > > follower of

                      > > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to buy

                      > > some

                      > > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you need &

                      > > we

                      > > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be borrowed

                      > > from

                      > > > > the library too.

                      > > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers..

                      > > Trying to

                      > > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in

                      > > > > selfish-greed- hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego illusions

                      > > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming as

                      > > well

                      > > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big

                      > > inflated

                      > > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so

                      > > would

                      > > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making

                      > > businesses.

                      > > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called

                      > > teachers),

                      > > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices & investments

                      > > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled

                      > > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in Oz),

                      > > in its

                      > > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for the

                      > > so

                      > > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.

                      > > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill

                      > > Mollison

                      > > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in

                      > > person in

                      > > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the

                      > > originators

                      > > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not least,

                      > > the

                      > > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-

                      > > > >

                      > > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your own

                      > > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about plants &

                      > > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from

                      > > getting

                      > > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops &

                      > > foods.

                      > > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the

                      > > biggest

                      > > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation began!!!,

                      > > so

                      > > > > long ago.

                      > > > >

                      > > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road back to

                      > > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at

                      > > conferences

                      > > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.

                      > > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and evidence,

                      > > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are made

                      > > clear

                      > > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in Mollison's &

                      > > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many continuing

                      > > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;

                      > > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult and

                      > > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits! - i

                      > > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this group

                      > > for

                      > > > > a best example - just search this group.

                      > > > >

                      > > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural

                      > > farming

                      > > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.

                      > > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many PermaCult

                      > > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and make

                      > > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural farmers

                      > > choose

                      > > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students and

                      > > selling

                      > > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a

                      > > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from

                      > > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.

                      > > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, & others.

                      > > can

                      > > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural

                      > > farming,

                      > > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.

                      > > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather

                      > > than

                      > > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here, detailed

                      > > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from people

                      > > you

                      > > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar habitats

                      > > to

                      > > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.

                      > > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet

                      > > arena,

                      > > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own

                      > > off-topic

                      > > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).

                      > > > >

                      > > > > with kind love for all life,

                      > > > >

                      > > > > Jase.

                      > > > >

                      > > > >

                      > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com<fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com><fukuoka_ farming%

                      > > 40yahoogroups. com>,

                      > >

                      > > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@ > wrote:

                      > > > > >

                      > > > > > Hello all,

                      > > > > >

                      > > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply

                      > > perused

                      > > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One Straw

                      > > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books.. I

                      > > live in

                      > > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers classes

                      > > in

                      > > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to

                      > > nothing

                      > > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are the

                      > > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods

                      > > espoused

                      > > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with the

                      > > idea

                      > > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive

                      > > into it?

                      > > > > >

                      > > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.

                      > > > > >

                      > > > > > Ezell

                      > > > > >

                      > > > > >

                      > > > > >

                      > > > > >

                      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      > > > > >

                      > > > >

                      > > > >

                      > > > >

                      > > >

                      > > >

                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      > > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      >

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Douglas
                      Thank you for your input.Although I am enthusiastic about the permaculture theories, I was already, and am even more so now, a bit wary. Permaculture displays
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jan 3, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thank you for your input.Although I am enthusiastic about the permaculture theories, I was already, and am even more so now, a bit wary.
                        Permaculture displays an aura of an elitist sport for well off rich college kids and although I can imagine that do want to 'sell out' either it seems counter to the urgency we have at hand. Geoff Lawton, likable and inspirational as he may seem is saying it himself in this video that sustainability is partly obtained by courses! WTF!?If you ever do run across a good learning place, please let me know.Ciao,
                        Douglasfrom the Netherlands
                        --- On Sat, 1/2/10, duezingare <duezingare@...> wrote:

                        From: duezingare <duezingare@...>
                        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: What is the Difference?
                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 2:30 AM
















                         









                        As a woman following this forum for a year now, i would like to add my comment to this permaculture debate:

                        ! that the only natural farming is hunter-gatherer is not only a male perspective, but a carnivore one as well: it is assuming that

                        because judeo-christian- muslims (all one god,jehovah) developed one kind of civilisation, so did the rest of humanity.

                        !if we are trying to copy nature,(eco- logy being a science)we are looking at bees and ants as much as mammals, and not forgetting that we have eliminated all predators that hunt and gather humans.

                        !personally, i have tried to follow a perma-cult course(10 day design)to learn, and have found arrogance and personalities coming way before principles,nullifyi ng any good will and causing a lot of arguments (as you can see, they have started on this forum as well)instead of sound practice.

                        !in the Fukuoka method i have so far only heard interesting, mostly anonymous exchanges, that testify to an earnest conscience of the dire world situation, both in terms of poverty and of pollution.



                        off course there are many good and honest people in the permaculture organisations, and it is them that should be concerned with their more oppressive representatives.

                        In italy, where i am, there has been a similar debate as the fukuoka followers have been asked by the permaculturists to join forces:

                        The problem, as an observer, seems to revolve around the permaculturist practice of running courses around the world, that range from 300$-here in italy- to 1500$ in the U.S.A., mexico, thailand,belize. .for 10 days camping! That is 30 to 150$ A DAY.

                        To my italian pockets, and shirley to the indians, this is NOT sustainable practice, but seems to sustain a growing number of "instructors" , that even thou brag about having a permaculture farm, seem to be traveling too much on courses to be farming:

                        In Italy there is a Permaculture School in Milano: i have wwoofed on the farm of the president, and can testify to the lifestyle:there was a small abandoned garden,that in august yielded some dried up bellpeppers, and some chickens that were left to us to open and close, as the permaculturist were in germany for a strawbale meeting of a couple of weeks. The wwoofers before us had worked primarly in the kitchen, as the "farm" was running a course..

                        We have had similar disappointing experiences in france and england.

                        The OGM threat is obviously much greater and more dangerous, but until the permaculture world can develop an ethical framework of development, it seems wiser to continue without grafting.

                        Anyway, conflict resolution is part of their courses, under "community development" so anybody that is interested in their methods,i'm sure can calmly grow on their own, without argumentative or inflammatory discussions, and pay if they like and can.



                        --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@... > wrote:

                        >

                        > One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you

                        > and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a

                        > lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to

                        > wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here in

                        > Ohio.

                        >

                        > Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!

                        >

                        > Frank

                        >

                        > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:

                        >

                        > >

                        > >

                        > > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should

                        > > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.

                        > >

                        > > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle and

                        > > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and carbon

                        > > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now when

                        > > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced 300

                        > > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.

                        > >

                        > > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the immediate

                        > > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and feed

                        > > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will go a

                        > > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.

                        > >

                        > > All the best to everybody in 2010!

                        > >

                        > > Jim Snyder

                        > > Edmore, MI

                        > > http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/

                        > >

                        > >

                        > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com <fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com>,

                        > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@> wrote:

                        > > >

                        > > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you

                        > > feel

                        > > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty

                        > > much

                        > > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming to

                        > > the

                        > > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in is

                        > > the

                        > > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps you

                        > > > should read what you have just written from another's point of view. You

                        > > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously

                        > > defend

                        > > > it.

                        > > >

                        > > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not be

                        > > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able

                        > > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.

                        > > >

                        > > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion. Seriously,

                        > > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The next

                        > > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists, who

                        > > go

                        > > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and ringing

                        > > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.

                        > > >

                        > > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all. The

                        > > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening up

                        > > til

                        > > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant seeds,

                        > > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are overcoming

                        > > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of

                        > > > multitudinous species all together.

                        > > >

                        > > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering lifestyle,

                        > > > come down off the soapbox, please.

                        > > >

                        > > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new

                        > > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?

                        > > >

                        > > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try to

                        > > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are

                        > > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god. He's

                        > > > just a guy with an interesting idea.

                        > > >

                        > > > Thanks,

                        > > >

                        > > > Frank

                        > > >

                        > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@ > wrote:

                        > > >

                        > > > >

                        > > > >

                        > > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,

                        > > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.

                        > > > > Please if you will read this introductory page

                        > > > > http://www.naturalf arming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' & Panos' &

                        > > > > others in Greece.

                        > > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this introduction,

                        > > even

                        > > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other cult

                        > > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for

                        > > > > PermCult...ure) .

                        > > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming the

                        > > new

                        > > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.

                        > > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s, about

                        > > 20

                        > > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist

                        > > myself,

                        > > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.

                        > > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in their

                        > > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -

                        > > > > plagiarised:

                        > > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true originator

                        > > or

                        > > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.

                        > > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying goes.

                        > > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't good,

                        > > as

                        > > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term over

                        > > your

                        > > > > own learning.

                        > > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use from

                        > > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends, don't

                        > > buy any

                        > > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn') IMHO,

                        > > don't

                        > > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a

                        > > follower of

                        > > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to buy

                        > > some

                        > > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you need &

                        > > we

                        > > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be borrowed

                        > > from

                        > > > > the library too.

                        > > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers.

                        > > Trying to

                        > > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in

                        > > > > selfish-greed- hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego illusions

                        > > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming as

                        > > well

                        > > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big

                        > > inflated

                        > > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so

                        > > would

                        > > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making

                        > > businesses.

                        > > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called

                        > > teachers),

                        > > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices & investments

                        > > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled

                        > > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in Oz),

                        > > in its

                        > > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for the

                        > > so

                        > > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.

                        > > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill

                        > > Mollison

                        > > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in

                        > > person in

                        > > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the

                        > > originators

                        > > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not least,

                        > > the

                        > > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-

                        > > > >

                        > > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your own

                        > > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about plants &

                        > > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from

                        > > getting

                        > > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops &

                        > > foods.

                        > > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the

                        > > biggest

                        > > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation began!!!,

                        > > so

                        > > > > long ago.

                        > > > >

                        > > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road back to

                        > > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at

                        > > conferences

                        > > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.

                        > > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and evidence,

                        > > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are made

                        > > clear

                        > > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in Mollison's &

                        > > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many continuing

                        > > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;

                        > > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult and

                        > > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits! - i

                        > > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this group

                        > > for

                        > > > > a best example - just search this group.

                        > > > >

                        > > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural

                        > > farming

                        > > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.

                        > > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many PermaCult

                        > > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and make

                        > > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural farmers

                        > > choose

                        > > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students and

                        > > selling

                        > > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a

                        > > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from

                        > > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.

                        > > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, & others.

                        > > can

                        > > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural

                        > > farming,

                        > > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.

                        > > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather

                        > > than

                        > > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here, detailed

                        > > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from people

                        > > you

                        > > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar habitats

                        > > to

                        > > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.

                        > > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet

                        > > arena,

                        > > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own

                        > > off-topic

                        > > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).

                        > > > >

                        > > > > with kind love for all life,

                        > > > >

                        > > > > Jase.

                        > > > >

                        > > > >

                        > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com<fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com><fukuoka_ farming%

                        > > 40yahoogroups. com>,

                        > >

                        > > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@ > wrote:

                        > > > > >

                        > > > > > Hello all,

                        > > > > >

                        > > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply

                        > > perused

                        > > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One Straw

                        > > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books. I

                        > > live in

                        > > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers classes

                        > > in

                        > > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to

                        > > nothing

                        > > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are the

                        > > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods

                        > > espoused

                        > > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with the

                        > > idea

                        > > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive

                        > > into it?

                        > > > > >

                        > > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.

                        > > > > >

                        > > > > > Ezell

                        > > > > >

                        > > > > >

                        > > > > >

                        > > > > >

                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        > > > > >

                        > > > >

                        > > > >

                        > > > >

                        > > >

                        > > >

                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        > > >

                        > >

                        > >

                        > >

                        >

                        >

                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        >






























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James
                        Hi Bob - a demonstration site is an excellent idea! I could write a couple pages on this topic based on career experiences as I have written and administered
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jan 3, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Bob - a demonstration site is an excellent idea! I could write a couple pages on this topic based on career experiences as I have written and administered numerous grants. I will summarize (and hopefully not offend anybody in the process) to say that Fukuoka Farming would be looked upon more as gardening by the agencies where various sources of funding could be obtained.

                          Fukuoka Farming is not a production model that many can even understand in my profession. Extension Service may be able to fit this model into an urban or suburban grant application but their funding is extremely tight these days and they may not have folks available to help write a grant. Allowing weeds to grow would be frowned upon and could be illegal in some counties if noxious weeds are allowed to flourish.

                          Each state usually has a definition of what is a farm. 5 acres is usually a minimum to qualify for USDA cost share programs for farming practices and 2 acres for Wildlife habitat establishment cost share.

                          EQIP innovation grants are sometimes available to set up demonstration sites and/or educational test plots. Maybe Fukuoka Farming could fit there. Contact your local NRCS or Extension office for more info. EPA 319 grants are usually much larger in scale and provided to address water quality issues. They are usually coordinated bu local county Soil and Water Conservation Districts.

                          The last source of funding I can think of is through the NRCS RC&D offices in your area. If a local RC&D council thinks this is a good idea, the may fund it locally. It is Sunday and I am out of the office so enough talk about work!

                          I prefer to act on my own without looking for help with funding and then be able to publish results based on my own unbiased opinions and results. Receiving funding from govt. sources sometimes comes with strings attached and much administration involved.

                          Best wishes

                          Jim Snyder
                          Edmore, MI
                          http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/


                          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Jim,
                          >
                          > We need more farmers with land and experience like you willing to try some of Fukuoka's ideas in the US to see to what extent they can be made to work here and whether they are just for backyard and  small-lot urban farming enthusiasts like me or may possibly have at least small-scale commercial potential as well.  Except for Helen Atthowe in Montana, I don't know of anybody who has received either government or private enterprise funding to actually try out Fukuoka Farming in this country, do you?  Certainly no such information has turned up on this list since its inception more than 10 years ago. If you could establish a few acres of experimental Fukuoka farming and have the project at least partially open for public inquiry and viewing, many people might be interested and possibly even want to contribute financially or otherwise to your efforts.
                          >
                          > Bob Monie
                          > New Orleans, LA
                          > Zone 8
                          >
                          > --- On Sat, 1/2/10, James <jim@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: James <jim@...>
                          > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: What is the Difference?
                          > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 7:42 AM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Frank - folks are always welcome to come and visit. I do my best to share my knowledge and what I have learned the last 40 years (much of it through trial and error)on my website for sustainable farming at: http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > You'll find a lot of photos there also. I don't refer to anybody as a ratbag either for using alternative methods. ;-) Why can't we just all get along and realize it will take much teamwork to address future world challenges?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Robert Rodale was my mentor although have recently begun to read all I can about Fukuoka.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I disagree with those they do not understand the value and benefit of compost especially on revitalizing poor and abused soils. I plan to turn most of my excess in the future into worm bedding and then use the compost and worm casting in our organic orchards, vineyards and gardens.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Small holdings can be extremely productive. I am considering giving up our 80 acre rental ground up the road this year to concentrate strictly on the 20 acres we have at the home farm. I can quadruple my yields with irrigation and with less need for fossil fuels and heavy metal.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Happy New Year!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Jim Snyder
                          >
                          > Edmore, MI
                          >
                          > http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@ > wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you
                          >
                          > > and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a
                          >
                          > > lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to
                          >
                          > > wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here in
                          >
                          > > Ohio.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Frank
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should
                          >
                          > > > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle and
                          >
                          > > > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and carbon
                          >
                          > > > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now when
                          >
                          > > > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced 300
                          >
                          > > > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the immediate
                          >
                          > > > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and feed
                          >
                          > > > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will go a
                          >
                          > > > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > All the best to everybody in 2010!
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > Jim Snyder
                          >
                          > > > Edmore, MI
                          >
                          > > > http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com <fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com>,
                          >
                          > > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@> wrote:
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you
                          >
                          > > > feel
                          >
                          > > > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty
                          >
                          > > > much
                          >
                          > > > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming to
                          >
                          > > > the
                          >
                          > > > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in is
                          >
                          > > > the
                          >
                          > > > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps you
                          >
                          > > > > should read what you have just written from another's point of view. You
                          >
                          > > > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously
                          >
                          > > > defend
                          >
                          > > > > it.
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not be
                          >
                          > > > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able
                          >
                          > > > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion. Seriously,
                          >
                          > > > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The next
                          >
                          > > > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists, who
                          >
                          > > > go
                          >
                          > > > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and ringing
                          >
                          > > > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all. The
                          >
                          > > > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening up
                          >
                          > > > til
                          >
                          > > > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant seeds,
                          >
                          > > > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are overcoming
                          >
                          > > > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of
                          >
                          > > > > multitudinous species all together.
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering lifestyle,
                          >
                          > > > > come down off the soapbox, please.
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new
                          >
                          > > > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try to
                          >
                          > > > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are
                          >
                          > > > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god.. He's
                          >
                          > > > > just a guy with an interesting idea.
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > Thanks,
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > Frank
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@ > wrote:
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,
                          >
                          > > > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.
                          >
                          > > > > > Please if you will read this introductory page
                          >
                          > > > > > http://www.naturalf arming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' & Panos' &
                          >
                          > > > > > others in Greece.
                          >
                          > > > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this introduction,
                          >
                          > > > even
                          >
                          > > > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other cult
                          >
                          > > > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for
                          >
                          > > > > > PermCult...ure) .
                          >
                          > > > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming the
                          >
                          > > > new
                          >
                          > > > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.
                          >
                          > > > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s, about
                          >
                          > > > 20
                          >
                          > > > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist
                          >
                          > > > myself,
                          >
                          > > > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.
                          >
                          > > > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in their
                          >
                          > > > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -
                          >
                          > > > > > plagiarised:
                          >
                          > > > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true originator
                          >
                          > > > or
                          >
                          > > > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.
                          >
                          > > > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying goes.
                          >
                          > > > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't good,
                          >
                          > > > as
                          >
                          > > > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term over
                          >
                          > > > your
                          >
                          > > > > > own learning.
                          >
                          > > > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use from
                          >
                          > > > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends, don't
                          >
                          > > > buy any
                          >
                          > > > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn') IMHO,
                          >
                          > > > don't
                          >
                          > > > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a
                          >
                          > > > follower of
                          >
                          > > > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to buy
                          >
                          > > > some
                          >
                          > > > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you need &
                          >
                          > > > we
                          >
                          > > > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be borrowed
                          >
                          > > > from
                          >
                          > > > > > the library too.
                          >
                          > > > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers..
                          >
                          > > > Trying to
                          >
                          > > > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in
                          >
                          > > > > > selfish-greed- hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego illusions
                          >
                          > > > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming as
                          >
                          > > > well
                          >
                          > > > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big
                          >
                          > > > inflated
                          >
                          > > > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so
                          >
                          > > > would
                          >
                          > > > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making
                          >
                          > > > businesses.
                          >
                          > > > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called
                          >
                          > > > teachers),
                          >
                          > > > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices & investments
                          >
                          > > > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled
                          >
                          > > > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in Oz),
                          >
                          > > > in its
                          >
                          > > > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for the
                          >
                          > > > so
                          >
                          > > > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.
                          >
                          > > > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill
                          >
                          > > > Mollison
                          >
                          > > > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in
                          >
                          > > > person in
                          >
                          > > > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the
                          >
                          > > > originators
                          >
                          > > > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not least,
                          >
                          > > > the
                          >
                          > > > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your own
                          >
                          > > > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about plants &
                          >
                          > > > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from
                          >
                          > > > getting
                          >
                          > > > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops &
                          >
                          > > > foods.
                          >
                          > > > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the
                          >
                          > > > biggest
                          >
                          > > > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation began!!!,
                          >
                          > > > so
                          >
                          > > > > > long ago.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road back to
                          >
                          > > > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at
                          >
                          > > > conferences
                          >
                          > > > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.
                          >
                          > > > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and evidence,
                          >
                          > > > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are made
                          >
                          > > > clear
                          >
                          > > > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in Mollison's &
                          >
                          > > > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many continuing
                          >
                          > > > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;
                          >
                          > > > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult and
                          >
                          > > > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits! - i
                          >
                          > > > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this group
                          >
                          > > > for
                          >
                          > > > > > a best example - just search this group.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural
                          >
                          > > > farming
                          >
                          > > > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.
                          >
                          > > > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many PermaCult
                          >
                          > > > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and make
                          >
                          > > > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural farmers
                          >
                          > > > choose
                          >
                          > > > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students and
                          >
                          > > > selling
                          >
                          > > > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a
                          >
                          > > > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from
                          >
                          > > > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.
                          >
                          > > > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, & others.
                          >
                          > > > can
                          >
                          > > > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural
                          >
                          > > > farming,
                          >
                          > > > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.
                          >
                          > > > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather
                          >
                          > > > than
                          >
                          > > > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here, detailed
                          >
                          > > > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from people
                          >
                          > > > you
                          >
                          > > > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar habitats
                          >
                          > > > to
                          >
                          > > > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.
                          >
                          > > > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet
                          >
                          > > > arena,
                          >
                          > > > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own
                          >
                          > > > off-topic
                          >
                          > > > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > with kind love for all life,
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > Jase.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com<fukuoka_farming% 40yahoogroups. com><fukuoka_ farming%
                          >
                          > > > 40yahoogroups. com>,
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@ > wrote:
                          >
                          > > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > > Hello all,
                          >
                          > > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply
                          >
                          > > > perused
                          >
                          > > > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One Straw
                          >
                          > > > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books.. I
                          >
                          > > > live in
                          >
                          > > > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers classes
                          >
                          > > > in
                          >
                          > > > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to
                          >
                          > > > nothing
                          >
                          > > > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are the
                          >
                          > > > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods
                          >
                          > > > espoused
                          >
                          > > > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with the
                          >
                          > > > idea
                          >
                          > > > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive
                          >
                          > > > into it?
                          >
                          > > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.
                          >
                          > > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > > Ezell
                          >
                          > > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
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                          >
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                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Frank McAvinchey
                          Jim, My small holding really is small, at less than an acre. Within that 3/4 acre are also my house and garage, so even less. I am quite aware that I can
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jan 3, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jim,

                            My "small holding" really is small, at less than an acre. Within that 3/4
                            acre are also my house and garage, so even less. I am quite aware that I
                            can produce copiously in that size area, but it is also in an area where the
                            neighbors are always watching. We now have a "Mrs. Cravits", who is
                            alongside my main gardening area, and is trying to put me out of business.
                            So, I've decided to suspend things of the sort on my property till the
                            situation changes a bit. I'll be working at my buddy's place a ways away.
                            Oh well.

                            Thank you, my friend!

                            Frank

                            On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 8:42 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Frank - folks are always welcome to come and visit. I do my best to
                            > share my knowledge and what I have learned the last 40 years (much of it
                            > through trial and error)on my website for sustainable farming at:
                            > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
                            >
                            > You'll find a lot of photos there also. I don't refer to anybody as a
                            > ratbag either for using alternative methods. ;-) Why can't we just all get
                            > along and realize it will take much teamwork to address future world
                            > challenges?
                            >
                            > Robert Rodale was my mentor although have recently begun to read all I can
                            > about Fukuoka.
                            >
                            > I disagree with those they do not understand the value and benefit of
                            > compost especially on revitalizing poor and abused soils. I plan to turn
                            > most of my excess in the future into worm bedding and then use the compost
                            > and worm casting in our organic orchards, vineyards and gardens.
                            >
                            > Small holdings can be extremely productive. I am considering giving up our
                            > 80 acre rental ground up the road this year to concentrate strictly on the
                            > 20 acres we have at the home farm. I can quadruple my yields with irrigation
                            > and with less need for fossil fuels and heavy metal.
                            >
                            > Happy New Year!
                            >
                            >
                            > Jim Snyder
                            > Edmore, MI
                            > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
                            >
                            > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you
                            > > and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a
                            > > lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to
                            > > wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here in
                            > > Ohio.
                            > >
                            > > Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!
                            > >
                            > > Frank
                            > >
                            > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should
                            > > > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.
                            > > >
                            > > > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle
                            > and
                            > > > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and
                            > carbon
                            > > > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now
                            > when
                            > > > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced
                            > 300
                            > > > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.
                            > > >
                            > > > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the
                            > immediate
                            > > > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and
                            > feed
                            > > > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will
                            > go a
                            > > > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.
                            > > >
                            > > > All the best to everybody in 2010!
                            > > >
                            > > > Jim Snyder
                            > > > Edmore, MI
                            > > > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%
                            > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                            >
                            > > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you
                            > > > feel
                            > > > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty
                            > > > much
                            > > > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming
                            > to
                            > > > the
                            > > > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in
                            > is
                            > > > the
                            > > > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps
                            > you
                            > > > > should read what you have just written from another's point of view.
                            > You
                            > > > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously
                            > > > defend
                            > > > > it.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not
                            > be
                            > > > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be
                            > able
                            > > > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion.
                            > Seriously,
                            > > > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The
                            > next
                            > > > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists,
                            > who
                            > > > go
                            > > > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and
                            > ringing
                            > > > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all.
                            > The
                            > > > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening
                            > up
                            > > > til
                            > > > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant
                            > seeds,
                            > > > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are
                            > overcoming
                            > > > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of
                            > > > > multitudinous species all together.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering
                            > lifestyle,
                            > > > > come down off the soapbox, please.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new
                            > > > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try
                            > to
                            > > > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are
                            > > > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god.
                            > He's
                            > > > > just a guy with an interesting idea.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Thanks,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Frank
                            > > > >
                            > > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,
                            > > > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.
                            > > > > > Please if you will read this introductory page
                            > > > > > http://www.naturalfarming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' &
                            > Panos' &
                            > > > > > others in Greece.
                            > > > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this
                            > introduction,
                            > > > even
                            > > > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other
                            > cult
                            > > > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for
                            > > > > > PermCult...ure).
                            > > > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming
                            > the
                            > > > new
                            > > > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.
                            > > > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s,
                            > about
                            > > > 20
                            > > > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist
                            > > > myself,
                            > > > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.
                            > > > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in
                            > their
                            > > > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -
                            > > > > > plagiarised:
                            > > > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true
                            > originator
                            > > > or
                            > > > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.
                            > > > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying
                            > goes.
                            > > > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't
                            > good,
                            > > > as
                            > > > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term
                            > over
                            > > > your
                            > > > > > own learning.
                            > > > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use
                            > from
                            > > > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends,
                            > don't
                            > > > buy any
                            > > > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn')
                            > IMHO,
                            > > > don't
                            > > > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a
                            > > > follower of
                            > > > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to
                            > buy
                            > > > some
                            > > > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you
                            > need &
                            > > > we
                            > > > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be
                            > borrowed
                            > > > from
                            > > > > > the library too.
                            > > > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers.
                            > > > Trying to
                            > > > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in
                            > > > > > selfish-greed-hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego
                            > illusions
                            > > > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming
                            > as
                            > > > well
                            > > > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big
                            > > > inflated
                            > > > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so
                            > > > would
                            > > > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making
                            > > > businesses.
                            > > > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called
                            > > > teachers),
                            > > > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices &
                            > investments
                            > > > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled
                            > > > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in
                            > Oz),
                            > > > in its
                            > > > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for
                            > the
                            > > > so
                            > > > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.
                            > > > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill
                            > > > Mollison
                            > > > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in
                            > > > person in
                            > > > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the
                            > > > originators
                            > > > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not
                            > least,
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your
                            > own
                            > > > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about
                            > plants &
                            > > > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from
                            > > > getting
                            > > > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops &
                            > > > foods.
                            > > > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the
                            > > > biggest
                            > > > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation
                            > began!!!,
                            > > > so
                            > > > > > long ago.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road
                            > back to
                            > > > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at
                            > > > conferences
                            > > > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.
                            > > > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and
                            > evidence,
                            > > > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are
                            > made
                            > > > clear
                            > > > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in
                            > Mollison's &
                            > > > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many
                            > continuing
                            > > > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;
                            > > > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult
                            > and
                            > > > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits!
                            > - i
                            > > > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this
                            > group
                            > > > for
                            > > > > > a best example - just search this group.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural
                            > > > farming
                            > > > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.
                            > > > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many
                            > PermaCult
                            > > > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and
                            > make
                            > > > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural
                            > farmers
                            > > > choose
                            > > > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students
                            > and
                            > > > selling
                            > > > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a
                            > > > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from
                            > > > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.
                            > > > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, &
                            > others.
                            > > > can
                            > > > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural
                            > > > farming,
                            > > > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.
                            > > > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather
                            > > > than
                            > > > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here,
                            > detailed
                            > > > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from
                            > people
                            > > > you
                            > > > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar
                            > habitats
                            > > > to
                            > > > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.
                            > > > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet
                            > > > arena,
                            > > > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own
                            > > > off-topic
                            > > > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > with kind love for all life,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Jase.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%
                            >
                            > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > > >
                            > > > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Hello all,
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply
                            > > > perused
                            > > > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One
                            > Straw
                            > > > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books. I
                            > > > live in
                            > > > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers
                            > classes
                            > > > in
                            > > > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to
                            > > > nothing
                            > > > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are
                            > the
                            > > > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods
                            > > > espoused
                            > > > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with
                            > the
                            > > > idea
                            > > > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive
                            > > > into it?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Ezell
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Douglas
                            Hi Frank, is it illegal to grow food on your home plot? Is there a home owners association?Or is it something else that keeps you from giving in to that
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jan 4, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Frank,
                              is it illegal to grow food on your home plot?
                              Is there a home owners association?Or is it something else that keeps you from giving in to that obnoxious lady?Did you ever try to reason with her? And if so what was the outcome?I am having a far from model garden in the front and the back but none of the neighbors say a thing nor can they do something about it.Actually I gardening with one of them on a community garden in the next town.Take care,
                              Douglas
                              --- On Sun, 1/3/10, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...> wrote:

                              From: Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...>
                              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: What is the Difference?
                              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 10:44 PM

                              Jim,

                              My "small holding" really is small, at less than an acre.  Within that 3/4
                              acre are also my house and garage, so even less.  I am quite aware that I
                              can produce copiously in that size area, but it is also in an area where the
                              neighbors are always watching.  We now have a "Mrs. Cravits", who is
                              alongside my main gardening area, and is trying to put me out of business.
                              So, I've decided to suspend things of the sort on my property till the
                              situation changes a bit.  I'll be working at my buddy's place a ways away.
                              Oh well.

                              Thank you, my friend!

                              Frank

                              On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 8:42 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Frank - folks are always welcome to come and visit. I do my best to
                              > share my knowledge and what I have learned the last 40 years (much of it
                              > through trial and error)on my website for sustainable farming at:
                              > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
                              >
                              > You'll find a lot of photos there also. I don't refer to anybody as a
                              > ratbag either for using alternative methods. ;-) Why can't we just all get
                              > along and realize it will take much teamwork to address future world
                              > challenges?
                              >
                              > Robert Rodale was my mentor although have recently begun to read all I can
                              > about Fukuoka.
                              >
                              > I disagree with those they do not understand the value and benefit of
                              > compost especially on revitalizing poor and abused soils. I plan to turn
                              > most of my excess in the future into worm bedding and then use the compost
                              > and worm casting in our organic orchards, vineyards and gardens.
                              >
                              > Small holdings can be extremely productive. I am considering giving up our
                              > 80 acre rental ground up the road this year to concentrate strictly on the
                              > 20 acres we have at the home farm. I can quadruple my yields with irrigation
                              > and with less need for fossil fuels and heavy metal.
                              >
                              > Happy New Year!
                              >
                              >
                              > Jim Snyder
                              > Edmore, MI
                              > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
                              >
                              > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                              > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit you
                              > > and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a
                              > > lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to
                              > > wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here in
                              > > Ohio.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!
                              > >
                              > > Frank
                              > >
                              > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should
                              > > > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.
                              > > >
                              > > > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle
                              > and
                              > > > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and
                              > carbon
                              > > > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now
                              > when
                              > > > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced
                              > 300
                              > > > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.
                              > > >
                              > > > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the
                              > immediate
                              > > > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases and
                              > feed
                              > > > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns will
                              > go a
                              > > > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.
                              > > >
                              > > > All the best to everybody in 2010!
                              > > >
                              > > > Jim Snyder
                              > > > Edmore, MI
                              > > > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%
                              > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                              >
                              > > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that you
                              > > > feel
                              > > > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that pretty
                              > > > much
                              > > > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly proclaiming
                              > to
                              > > > the
                              > > > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved in
                              > is
                              > > > the
                              > > > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps
                              > you
                              > > > > should read what you have just written from another's point of view.
                              > You
                              > > > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to vigorously
                              > > > defend
                              > > > > it.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will not
                              > be
                              > > > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be
                              > able
                              > > > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion.
                              > Seriously,
                              > > > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such. The
                              > next
                              > > > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka terrorists,
                              > who
                              > > > go
                              > > > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and
                              > ringing
                              > > > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at all.
                              > The
                              > > > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening
                              > up
                              > > > til
                              > > > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant
                              > seeds,
                              > > > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are
                              > overcoming
                              > > > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of
                              > > > > multitudinous species all together.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering
                              > lifestyle,
                              > > > > come down off the soapbox, please.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a new
                              > > > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please try
                              > to
                              > > > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people are
                              > > > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god.
                              > He's
                              > > > > just a guy with an interesting idea.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Thanks,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Frank
                              > > > >
                              > > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,
                              > > > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.
                              > > > > > Please if you will read this introductory page
                              > > > > > http://www.naturalfarming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' &
                              > Panos' &
                              > > > > > others in Greece.
                              > > > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this
                              > introduction,
                              > > > even
                              > > > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other
                              > cult
                              > > > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for
                              > > > > > PermCult...ure).
                              > > > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming
                              > the
                              > > > new
                              > > > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.
                              > > > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s,
                              > about
                              > > > 20
                              > > > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional ecologist
                              > > > myself,
                              > > > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.
                              > > > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in
                              > their
                              > > > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -
                              > > > > > plagiarised:
                              > > > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true
                              > originator
                              > > > or
                              > > > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.
                              > > > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying
                              > goes.
                              > > > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't
                              > good,
                              > > > as
                              > > > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term
                              > over
                              > > > your
                              > > > > > own learning.
                              > > > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use
                              > from
                              > > > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends,
                              > don't
                              > > > buy any
                              > > > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn')
                              > IMHO,
                              > > > don't
                              > > > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a
                              > > > follower of
                              > > > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to
                              > buy
                              > > > some
                              > > > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you
                              > need &
                              > > > we
                              > > > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be
                              > borrowed
                              > > > from
                              > > > > > the library too.
                              > > > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers.
                              > > > Trying to
                              > > > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in
                              > > > > > selfish-greed-hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego
                              > illusions
                              > > > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural farming
                              > as
                              > > > well
                              > > > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big
                              > > > inflated
                              > > > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do so
                              > > > would
                              > > > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making
                              > > > businesses.
                              > > > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called
                              > > > teachers),
                              > > > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices &
                              > investments
                              > > > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly veiled
                              > > > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in
                              > Oz),
                              > > > in its
                              > > > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for
                              > the
                              > > > so
                              > > > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.
                              > > > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill
                              > > > Mollison
                              > > > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren (in
                              > > > person in
                              > > > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the
                              > > > originators
                              > > > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not
                              > least,
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as your
                              > own
                              > > > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about
                              > plants &
                              > > > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works from
                              > > > getting
                              > > > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops &
                              > > > foods.
                              > > > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to the
                              > > > biggest
                              > > > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation
                              > began!!!,
                              > > > so
                              > > > > > long ago.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road
                              > back to
                              > > > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at
                              > > > conferences
                              > > > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.
                              > > > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and
                              > evidence,
                              > > > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are
                              > made
                              > > > clear
                              > > > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in
                              > Mollison's &
                              > > > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many
                              > continuing
                              > > > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;
                              > > > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying PermaCult
                              > and
                              > > > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their fruits!
                              > - i
                              > > > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this
                              > group
                              > > > for
                              > > > > > a best example - just search this group.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on natural
                              > > > farming
                              > > > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.
                              > > > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many
                              > PermaCult
                              > > > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult and
                              > make
                              > > > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural
                              > farmers
                              > > > choose
                              > > > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students
                              > and
                              > > > selling
                              > > > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a
                              > > > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers, from
                              > > > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.
                              > > > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, &
                              > others.
                              > > > can
                              > > > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural
                              > > > farming,
                              > > > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.
                              > > > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself, (rather
                              > > > than
                              > > > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here,
                              > detailed
                              > > > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from
                              > people
                              > > > you
                              > > > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar
                              > habitats
                              > > > to
                              > > > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your habitat.
                              > > > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet
                              > > > arena,
                              > > > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own
                              > > > off-topic
                              > > > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > with kind love for all life,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Jase.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%
                              >
                              > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                              > > >
                              > > > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Hello all,
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have simply
                              > > > perused
                              > > > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One
                              > Straw
                              > > > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books. I
                              > > > live in
                              > > > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers
                              > classes
                              > > > in
                              > > > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to
                              > > > nothing
                              > > > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are
                              > the
                              > > > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods
                              > > > espoused
                              > > > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to start--with
                              > the
                              > > > idea
                              > > > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just dive
                              > > > into it?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Ezell
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >

                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              ------------------------------------

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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Frank McAvinchey
                              Part of the deal is that my property DOESN T look like HER property, nor do I want it to. A farm, even a tiny farm such as mine, is a farm. It isn t a rich
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jan 4, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Part of the deal is that my property DOESN'T look like HER property, nor do
                                I want it to. A farm, even a tiny farm such as mine, is a farm. It isn't a
                                rich person's landscaped postage stamp yard with a huge house on it. I am
                                interested in producing the maximum from my little plot of land, and thus,
                                it won't look like the typical yard in my high-rent neighborhood. It is NOT
                                a landscape architect's dream, I'm afraid. Oh well.

                                Thanks,

                                Frank

                                On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Douglas <dougxmail@...> wrote:

                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Frank,
                                > is it illegal to grow food on your home plot?
                                > Is there a home owners association?Or is it something else that keeps you
                                > from giving in to that obnoxious lady?Did you ever try to reason with her?
                                > And if so what was the outcome?I am having a far from model garden in the
                                > front and the back but none of the neighbors say a thing nor can they do
                                > something about it.Actually I gardening with one of them on a community
                                > garden in the next town.Take care,
                                > Douglas
                                >
                                > --- On Sun, 1/3/10, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...<fmcavin%40gmail.com>>
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                > From: Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@... <fmcavin%40gmail.com>>
                                > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: What is the Difference?
                                >
                                > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 10:44 PM
                                >
                                >
                                > Jim,
                                >
                                > My "small holding" really is small, at less than an acre. Within that 3/4
                                > acre are also my house and garage, so even less. I am quite aware that I
                                > can produce copiously in that size area, but it is also in an area where
                                > the
                                > neighbors are always watching. We now have a "Mrs. Cravits", who is
                                > alongside my main gardening area, and is trying to put me out of business.
                                > So, I've decided to suspend things of the sort on my property till the
                                > situation changes a bit. I'll be working at my buddy's place a ways away.
                                > Oh well.
                                >
                                > Thank you, my friend!
                                >
                                > Frank
                                >
                                > On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 8:42 AM, James <jim@...<jim%40buggyridge.com>>
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Hi Frank - folks are always welcome to come and visit. I do my best to
                                > > share my knowledge and what I have learned the last 40 years (much of it
                                > > through trial and error)on my website for sustainable farming at:
                                > > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
                                > >
                                > > You'll find a lot of photos there also. I don't refer to anybody as a
                                > > ratbag either for using alternative methods. ;-) Why can't we just all
                                > get
                                > > along and realize it will take much teamwork to address future world
                                > > challenges?
                                > >
                                > > Robert Rodale was my mentor although have recently begun to read all I
                                > can
                                > > about Fukuoka.
                                > >
                                > > I disagree with those they do not understand the value and benefit of
                                > > compost especially on revitalizing poor and abused soils. I plan to turn
                                > > most of my excess in the future into worm bedding and then use the
                                > compost
                                > > and worm casting in our organic orchards, vineyards and gardens.
                                > >
                                > > Small holdings can be extremely productive. I am considering giving up
                                > our
                                > > 80 acre rental ground up the road this year to concentrate strictly on
                                > the
                                > > 20 acres we have at the home farm. I can quadruple my yields with
                                > irrigation
                                > > and with less need for fossil fuels and heavy metal.
                                > >
                                > > Happy New Year!
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Jim Snyder
                                > > Edmore, MI
                                > > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
                                > >
                                > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%
                                > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                                > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > One of these years James, I would like very much to come up and visit
                                > you
                                > > > and your farm and learn a thing or two. Sounds lovely, indeed! That's a
                                > > > lot of bushels. I dream about having a farm to call my own, but have to
                                > > > wait still longer. I'm doing the best I can with my small holding here
                                > in
                                > > > Ohio.
                                > > >
                                > > > Cheers, and blessings in the new year! Same to all of you folks!
                                > > >
                                > > > Frank
                                > > >
                                > > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:12 AM, James <jim@...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thank you Frank for your post. I was starting to wonder if I should
                                > > > > unsubscribe from this group if I am not a Fukuoka purist.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I use no purchased fertilizers, compost all my manure from my cattle
                                > > and
                                > > > > goats to recycle it to build fertility, moisture holding ability and
                                > > carbon
                                > > > > in my soils. I have numerous mushrooms that grow in my pastures now
                                > > when
                                > > > > moisture conditions are right and had one 2 acre patch that produced
                                > > 300
                                > > > > bushels/acre last growing season with half our normal rainfall.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I think Fukuoka methods are wonderful on a small scale but the
                                > > immediate
                                > > > > challenge facing us as earthlings is how to reduce greenhouse gases
                                > and
                                > > feed
                                > > > > a rapidly expanding population. Addressing these 2 major concerns
                                > will
                                > > go a
                                > > > > long way toward my wish for all of us and that is peace on earth.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > All the best to everybody in 2010!
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Jim Snyder
                                > > > > Edmore, MI
                                > > > > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%
                                >
                                > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                                > >
                                > > > > Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Well, I must say, I find your rantings offensive. I'm amazed that
                                > you
                                > > > > feel
                                > > > > > perfectly fine labeling another style of farming, and one that
                                > pretty
                                > > > > much
                                > > > > > doesn't use a lot of pesticides, etc., as a cult. Boldly
                                > proclaiming
                                > > to
                                > > > > the
                                > > > > > world that Permaculture is a cult, and that what you are involved
                                > in
                                > > is
                                > > > > the
                                > > > > > "One True Church". You sound like a cult member, my friend. Perhaps
                                > > you
                                > > > > > should read what you have just written from another's point of
                                > view.
                                > > You
                                > > > > > truly sound like you've found a new religion, and have to
                                > vigorously
                                > > > > defend
                                > > > > > it.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Breath deep. Calm down. You will be fine. Judge not, and you will
                                > not
                                > > be
                                > > > > > judged. First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will
                                > be
                                > > able
                                > > > > > to take the sliver out of your brother's eye.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Perhaps I was unaware that Fukuoka had started a new religion.
                                > > Seriously,
                                > > > > > this thing is NOT a religion, and should NOT be treated as such.
                                > The
                                > > next
                                > > > > > thing we know, someone is going to start training Fukuoka
                                > terrorists,
                                > > who
                                > > > > go
                                > > > > > out and sabotage Permaculture sites by broadcasting mudballs, and
                                > > ringing
                                > > > > > the permaculture trees with chainsaws.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > It could easily be said that "Natural Farming" isn't natural at
                                > all.
                                > > The
                                > > > > > only REAL, NATURAL way to farm is something that has been happening
                                > > up
                                > > > > til
                                > > > > > the present day. *It's called hunting and gathering.* If you plant
                                > > seeds,
                                > > > > > you are doing something that is decidedly NOT natural. You are
                                > > overcoming
                                > > > > > the propensity of nature to be bio-diverse, with a thick mix of
                                > > > > > multitudinous species all together.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > So unless you are going back to a purely hunting and gathering
                                > > lifestyle,
                                > > > > > come down off the soapbox, please.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > All these discussions are very interesting, but let's not make a
                                > new
                                > > > > > religion out of this thing, let's just grow some food. Okay?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I am coming down from MY soapbox now. No offense intended, please
                                > try
                                > > to
                                > > > > > not be offended by this. It just seems SO often here, that people
                                > are
                                > > > > > actually trying to deify poor old Fukuoka. He's NOT God, nor a god.
                                > > He's
                                > > > > > just a guy with an interesting idea.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Thanks,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Frank
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Jason <macropneuma@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > G'day friend, Ezeli,
                                > > > > > > Hi! Jase from Oz (australia) here.
                                > > > > > > Please if you will read this introductory page
                                > > > > > > http://www.naturalfarming.eu/ of this website of Karoubas' &
                                > > Panos' &
                                > > > > > > others in Greece.
                                > > > > > > The difference from PermaCulture is implied well in this
                                > > introduction,
                                > > > > even
                                > > > > > > though not explicit, as this implied criticism applies to other
                                > > cult
                                > > > > > > movements as well, not only to PermaCult (as the better name for
                                > > > > > > PermCult...ure).
                                > > > > > > An historical perspective is the way i explain PermaCult becoming
                                > > the
                                > > > > new
                                > > > > > > political correctness cult, at least here in Australia lately.
                                > > > > > > I have been associated with PermaCultists since the late 1980s,
                                > > about
                                > > > > 20
                                > > > > > > years, as a naturalist, natural farmer, and professional
                                > ecologist
                                > > > > myself,
                                > > > > > > all that time never getting sucked in, by this PermaCult.
                                > > > > > > Most of PermaCult provides no new in innovations, all of it in
                                > > their
                                > > > > > > writings & teachings is some one else's innovations of the past -
                                > > > > > > plagiarised:
                                > > > > > > -subtly with lip service given to giving credit to the true
                                > > originator
                                > > > > or
                                > > > > > > -bare-facedly ripped off from someone else's innovations.
                                > > > > > > Anyway, there's nothing new under the sun, at all, as the saying
                                > > goes.
                                > > > > > > Even as a compilation plagairising other people's works, it isn't
                                > > good,
                                > > > > as
                                > > > > > > you will come to know from what i say below and in the long term
                                > > over
                                > > > > your
                                > > > > > > own learning.
                                > > > > > > Take everything you can extract & critically evaluate & then use
                                > > from
                                > > > > > > PermaCult, by borrowing the books from the library or friends,
                                > > don't
                                > > > > buy any
                                > > > > > > of their books or multimedia (unless you 'have money to burn')
                                > > IMHO,
                                > > > > don't
                                > > > > > > pay for any of their expensive courses - they'll make you into a
                                > > > > follower of
                                > > > > > > them IMHO rather than leaders of yourselves, etc. You may like to
                                > > buy
                                > > > > some
                                > > > > > > Fukuoka-sensei books, but these are merely the lantern, when you
                                > > need &
                                > > > > we
                                > > > > > > all need to follow the light, and can usually just as well be
                                > > borrowed
                                > > > > from
                                > > > > > > the library too.
                                > > > > > > PermaCult in this philosophical sense of it, brings real dangers.
                                > > > > Trying to
                                > > > > > > make permanent the very root problem of sustainability in
                                > > > > > > selfish-greed-hierarchies of egos. You may know already ego
                                > > illusions
                                > > > > > > contain no reality - this you will learn in Fukuoka natural
                                > farming
                                > > as
                                > > > > well
                                > > > > > > as practical food growing, but the structure in PermaCult of big
                                > > > > inflated
                                > > > > > > egos will not teach you about this root cause problem, as to do
                                > so
                                > > > > would
                                > > > > > > undercut their whole structure, and their 'gurus'' money making
                                > > > > businesses.
                                > > > > > > PermaCult orients itself around so called gurus (or so called
                                > > > > teachers),
                                > > > > > > hierarchical social learning, capital-intensive practices &
                                > > investments
                                > > > > > > required in its materials, expensive courses & books, thinly
                                > veiled
                                > > > > > > capitalistic rankings & shares in it's 'farms' (at least here in
                                > > Oz),
                                > > > > in its
                                > > > > > > practitioners & so called teachers or leaders, & profiteering for
                                > > the
                                > > > > so
                                > > > > > > called leaders of it, up the top of the hierarchy.
                                > > > > > > Australian people originated this PermaCult -shame on them- Bill
                                > > > > Mollison
                                > > > > > > (in his many writings & multimedia i've seen) & David Holmgren
                                > (in
                                > > > > person in
                                > > > > > > his talk i've attended and his many writings i've read), are the
                                > > > > originators
                                > > > > > > & trademark holders of the PermaCult... name and last but not
                                > > least,
                                > > > > the
                                > > > > > > most inflated egos around -no one moreso-
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Dive right in exactly!, because you have nature in yourself as
                                > your
                                > > own
                                > > > > > > 'human natural nature', as much as you will be learning about
                                > > plants &
                                > > > > > > animals, you & included in we all get to know how nature works
                                > from
                                > > > > getting
                                > > > > > > to know how our own nature works when we are outside in our crops
                                > &
                                > > > > foods.
                                > > > > > > They, Panos & Karoubas & others, provide some real solutions to
                                > the
                                > > > > biggest
                                > > > > > > problems of European sustainability since Greek civilisation
                                > > began!!!,
                                > > > > so
                                > > > > > > long ago.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Fukuoka sensei in his other books translated into English (Road
                                > > back to
                                > > > > > > Nature & Natural Way of Farming) writes about Bill Mollison at
                                > > > > conferences
                                > > > > > > with him in USA, and about PermaCult.
                                > > > > > > Fukuoka makes clear his opinion of PermaCult as inferior, and
                                > > evidence,
                                > > > > > > more than just his opinion, for the details of that opinion are
                                > > made
                                > > > > clear
                                > > > > > > in there in Fukuoka sensei's writing & moreso elsewhere in
                                > > Mollison's &
                                > > > > > > Holmgren's writing's naked wrong-headedness and their many
                                > > continuing
                                > > > > > > unnecessary, stupid failures in their farming practices;
                                > > > > > > Also in other experienced farmer's experiences of trying
                                > PermaCult
                                > > and
                                > > > > > > Natural Farming and comparing them by their results -their
                                > fruits!
                                > > - i
                                > > > > > > recommend Jean-Claude Catry's great writings earlier here in this
                                > > group
                                > > > > for
                                > > > > > > a best example - just search this group.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Feel free to ask here more detailed questions of us all on
                                > natural
                                > > > > farming
                                > > > > > > practices, this politics stuff, the philosophy, etc.
                                > > > > > > Personally & professionally I have more experience than many
                                > > PermaCult
                                > > > > > > official teachers i know of, such that i could teach PermaCult
                                > and
                                > > make
                                > > > > > > money from that, but i choose not to like many other natural
                                > > farmers
                                > > > > choose
                                > > > > > > not make money from the dishonesty of ripping off naive students
                                > > and
                                > > > > selling
                                > > > > > > our souls & nature's soul for this greed & for ego - this is a
                                > > > > > > characteristic difference of Fukuoka-inspired natural farmers,
                                > from
                                > > > > > > non-natural farmers or from PermaCultists.
                                > > > > > > Many members of this group here like Raju, Karoubas & Panos, &
                                > > others.
                                > > > > can
                                > > > > > > teach from many years & decades of experience in Fukuoka natural
                                > > > > farming,
                                > > > > > > way-far-more again than i can teach this.
                                > > > > > > So if you dive right in and become the-leader-of -yourself,
                                > (rather
                                > > > > than
                                > > > > > > follower of PermaCult) and then you start asking us all here,
                                > > detailed
                                > > > > > > practical questions, i'm sure there will come answers here from
                                > > people
                                > > > > you
                                > > > > > > can relate to, and even people who live near you or in similar
                                > > habitats
                                > > > > to
                                > > > > > > you, answers that are the most superiorly related to your
                                > habitat.
                                > > > > > > (Beware there has been some rat-bags here too, as in any internet
                                > > > > arena,
                                > > > > > > they are the ones who vainly try to use this group for their own
                                > > > > off-topic
                                > > > > > > or even contrary to Fukuoka-sensei sermons).
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > with kind love for all life,
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Jase.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%
                                > >
                                > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > > ezell wilson <jacare722000@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Hello all,
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > I have joined this usergroup a couple months ago and have
                                > simply
                                > > > > perused
                                > > > > > > the messages here trying to learn what I can. I have read the One
                                > > Straw
                                > > > > > > Revolution and am about to start on one of Fukuoka's other books.
                                > I
                                > > > > live in
                                > > > > > > Houston and there is a local urban gardening group that offers
                                > > classes
                                > > > > in
                                > > > > > > permaculture that my wife and I are interested in. I know next to
                                > > > > nothing
                                > > > > > > about permaculture and would like to ask all of you here what are
                                > > the
                                > > > > > > differences, if any, between permaculture methods and the methods
                                > > > > espoused
                                > > > > > > by Fukuoka. Secondly, would permaculture be a place to
                                > start--with
                                > > the
                                > > > > idea
                                > > > > > > of eventually moving to Fukuoka methods, or is it best to just
                                > dive
                                > > > > into it?
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Thank you in advance for your answers.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Ezell
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
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