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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Leaves vs. forests

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  • Andre Abrahami
    Usually it is not recommended to put more than 20% conifers wood in the production of Ramial Chipped Wood and you re right, no cedars... See :
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 20, 2009
      Usually it is not recommended to put more than 20% conifers wood in the
      production of Ramial Chipped Wood and you're right, no cedars...

      See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_Chipped_Wood



      2009/11/19 <fdnokes@...>

      >
      >
      >
      >
      > What about Cedar bark mulch?
      >
      > I have heard some people warn against its use...
      >
      > Frances
      >
      > All biomass is good for the soil. It doesn't matter if it is in the form of
      > straw, hay, grass clippings, leaves, shredded branches or even entire wooden
      > logs. I have used it all for at least 10 years. N-sequestration due to
      > C-rich material is not an issue if we aim for long-term soil improvement
      > rather than short-term gains in yield. The only case in which a sharp
      > reduction in growth can result for a season or two is when very fine C-rich
      > material such as saw dust is applied in large quantities because the
      > decomposition occurs rapidly. Coarse materials, such as coarsely shredded
      > branches, on the other hand, slowly decompose over a longer period of time
      > which doesn't impact growth significantly. Leaves can be useful for
      > smothering grass sod to convert it into vegetables beds. For the same
      > reason, leaves should not be used on top of a freshly sown bed because they
      > will prevent the seeds from germinating. Woody material will cause a
      > fungi-dominated soil, there is no need to add mushrooms, they will occur
      > spontaneously. Just like hay and grassy material will create a
      > microbe-dominated soil, there is no need to add microbes, they will occur
      > spontaneously.
      >
      > Material that is not composted should always be applied to the soil surface
      > und not plowed under because aerobic decomposition is generally preferable
      > over anaerobic decomposition.
      >
      > Dieter
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • diebrand
      Frances, We haven t got any cedars. No good for this climate. My guess would be that it s best to avoid using large quantities. The basic rule of natural
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 20, 2009
        Frances,

        We haven't got any cedars. No good for this climate. My guess would be that it's best to avoid using large quantities. The basic rule of natural farming is not to use anything from outside the field. But this is impossible for most of us. Hence, if we use external biomass, it is best to introduce it in small doses so as not to alter the nature of the place too radically.

        Dieter


        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, <fdnokes@...> wrote:
        >
        > What about Cedar bark mulch?
        >
        > I have heard some people warn against its use...
        >
        > Frances
      • yarrow@sfo.com
        Most allelopathic chemicals are leached out of wood chips over time. I use ramial wood chip mulch (which means lots of twigs, not just tree trunks) on my
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 20, 2009
          Most allelopathic chemicals are leached out of
          wood chips over time. I use ramial wood chip
          mulch (which means lots of twigs, not just tree
          trunks) on my garden all the time, but I age it
          in my paths for at least 6 months (and usually
          1-2 years) first.

          There's also some question about whether the
          allelopathic chemicals last very long in chipped
          wood vs. in the living tree. For instance, one
          study used chipped wood from walnut, eucalyptus,
          and a few other species to mulch saplings in tree
          pots and showed no effect on growth.

          Another study, from Universite Laval in Quebec,
          Canada, concluded that ramial wood chips are good
          for soils. At the time of the following report,
          ramial chipped wood (RCW) had been studied by 15
          researchers for at least 15 years.

          http://forestgeomat.for.ulaval.ca/brf
          UNIVERSITÉ LAVAL
          Département des Sciences du Bois et de la Forêt
          Québec G1K 7P4 Canada

          RAMIAL CHIPPED WOOD: A BASIC TOOL FOR REGENERATING SOILS

          by: Céline Caron
          décembre 1994

          Publication n° 50




          At 5:41 PM +0000 11/20/09, diebrand wrote:
          Frances,

          We haven't got any cedars. No good for this
          climate. My guess would be that it's best to
          avoid using large quantities. The basic rule of
          natural farming is not to use anything from
          outside the field. But this is impossible for
          most of us. Hence, if we use external biomass, it
          is best to introduce it in small doses so as not
          to alter the nature of the place too radically.

          Dieter

          --- In
          <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com,
          <fdnokes@...> wrote:
          >
          > What about Cedar bark mulch?
          >
          > I have heard some people warn against its use...
          >
          > Frances

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • fdnokes@hotmail.com
          Interesting and notable! By the way, I followed the link to the wiki article and read that, Conifers are avoided because of their specific lignin (10 to 20%,
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 21, 2009
            Interesting and notable!
            By the way, I followed the link to the wiki article and read that,
            Conifers are avoided because of their specific lignin (10 to 20%, however, are tolerated in combination).
            Just as a sidebar to my question about avoiding cedar bark.

            So, twigs it is!
            I'll have to start gathering them, even if we do not have a chipper, per se.

            Frances


            From: yarrow@...
            Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:50 PM
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Leaves vs. forests



            Most allelopathic chemicals are leached out of
            wood chips over time. I use ramial wood chip
            mulch (which means lots of twigs, not just tree
            trunks) on my garden all the time, but I age it
            in my paths for at least 6 months (and usually
            1-2 years) first.

            There's also some question about whether the
            allelopathic chemicals last very long in chipped
            wood vs. in the living tree. For instance, one
            study used chipped wood from walnut, eucalyptus,
            and a few other species to mulch saplings in tree
            pots and showed no effect on growth.

            Another study, from Universite Laval in Quebec,
            Canada, concluded that ramial wood chips are good
            for soils. At the time of the following report,
            ramial chipped wood (RCW) had been studied by 15
            researchers for at least 15 years.

            http://forestgeomat.for.ulaval.ca/brf
            UNIVERSITÉ LAVAL
            Département des Sciences du Bois et de la Forêt
            Québec G1K 7P4 Canada

            RAMIAL CHIPPED WOOD: A BASIC TOOL FOR REGENERATING SOILS

            by: Céline Caron
            décembre 1994

            Publication n° 50

            At 5:41 PM +0000 11/20/09, diebrand wrote:
            Frances,

            We haven't got any cedars. No good for this
            climate. My guess would be that it's best to
            avoid using large quantities. The basic rule of
            natural farming is not to use anything from
            outside the field. But this is impossible for
            most of us. Hence, if we use external biomass, it
            is best to introduce it in small doses so as not
            to alter the nature of the place too radically.

            Dieter

            --- In
            <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com,
            <fdnokes@...> wrote:
            >
            > What about Cedar bark mulch?
            >
            > I have heard some people warn against its use...
            >
            > Frances

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Frank McAvinchey
            I ve noticed that wood/twigs/chips that are somewhat mixed with soil breaks down much faster than pure wood. Stands to reason. Here is an idea that may be
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 21, 2009
              I've noticed that wood/twigs/chips that are somewhat mixed with soil breaks
              down much faster than pure wood. Stands to reason.

              Here is an idea that may be worth testing: putting down chips/twigs/etc.
              and then planting a cover crop on top. When the cover crop, such as
              trefoil, clover, rye, etc., is a foot tall or so, mow it down and leave it.
              Then, do the same again. This way, you are potentially overcoming the
              nitrogen dip. What do you think, my friends? Another further addition to
              that idea is seeding the same area with mushroom spores.

              Frank

              On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:19 PM, <fdnokes@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > Interesting and notable!
              > By the way, I followed the link to the wiki article and read that,
              > Conifers are avoided because of their specific lignin (10 to 20%, however,
              > are tolerated in combination).
              > Just as a sidebar to my question about avoiding cedar bark.
              >
              > So, twigs it is!
              > I'll have to start gathering them, even if we do not have a chipper, per
              > se.
              >
              > Frances
              >
              > From: yarrow@... <yarrow%40sfo.com>
              > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:50 PM
              >
              > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Leaves vs. forests
              >
              >
              > Most allelopathic chemicals are leached out of
              > wood chips over time. I use ramial wood chip
              > mulch (which means lots of twigs, not just tree
              > trunks) on my garden all the time, but I age it
              > in my paths for at least 6 months (and usually
              > 1-2 years) first.
              >
              > There's also some question about whether the
              > allelopathic chemicals last very long in chipped
              > wood vs. in the living tree. For instance, one
              > study used chipped wood from walnut, eucalyptus,
              > and a few other species to mulch saplings in tree
              > pots and showed no effect on growth.
              >
              > Another study, from Universite Laval in Quebec,
              > Canada, concluded that ramial wood chips are good
              > for soils. At the time of the following report,
              > ramial chipped wood (RCW) had been studied by 15
              > researchers for at least 15 years.
              >
              > http://forestgeomat.for.ulaval.ca/brf
              > UNIVERSIT� LAVAL
              > D�partement des Sciences du Bois et de la For�t
              > Qu�bec G1K 7P4 Canada
              >
              > RAMIAL CHIPPED WOOD: A BASIC TOOL FOR REGENERATING SOILS
              >
              > by: C�line Caron
              > d�cembre 1994
              >
              > Publication n� 50
              >
              > At 5:41 PM +0000 11/20/09, diebrand wrote:
              > Frances,
              >
              > We haven't got any cedars. No good for this
              > climate. My guess would be that it's best to
              > avoid using large quantities. The basic rule of
              > natural farming is not to use anything from
              > outside the field. But this is impossible for
              > most of us. Hence, if we use external biomass, it
              > is best to introduce it in small doses so as not
              > to alter the nature of the place too radically.
              >
              > Dieter
              >
              > --- In
              > <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>
              > >fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > <fdnokes@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > What about Cedar bark mulch?
              > >
              > > I have heard some people warn against its use...
              > >
              > > Frances
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Andre Abrahami
              Adding nitrogen to RCW is a natural reflex but it s not a good idea... Doing this you would block the mycorization process and you don t want that. The
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 21, 2009
                Adding nitrogen to RCW is a "natural reflex" but it's not a good idea...

                Doing this you would block the mycorization process and you don't want that.

                The nitrogen dip is a normal step of RCW (which is different from composting)


                2009/11/21 Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...>
                >
                > I've noticed that wood/twigs/chips that are somewhat mixed with soil breaks
                > down much faster than pure wood.  Stands to reason.
                >
                > Here is an idea that may be worth testing:  putting down chips/twigs/etc.
                > and then planting a cover crop on top.  When the cover crop, such as
                > trefoil, clover, rye, etc., is a foot tall or so, mow it down and leave it.
                >  Then, do the same again.  This way, you are potentially overcoming the
                > nitrogen dip.  What do you think, my friends?  Another further addition to
                > that idea is seeding the same area with mushroom spores.
                >
                > Frank
                >
                > On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:19 PM, <fdnokes@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Interesting and notable!
                > > By the way, I followed the link to the wiki article and read that,
                > > Conifers are avoided because of their specific lignin (10 to 20%, however,
                > > are tolerated in combination).
                > > Just as a sidebar to my question about avoiding cedar bark.
                > >
                > > So, twigs it is!
                > > I'll have to start gathering them, even if we do not have a chipper, per
                > > se.
                > >
                > > Frances
                > >
                > > From: yarrow@... <yarrow%40sfo.com>
                > > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:50 PM
                > >
                > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Leaves vs. forests
                > >
                > >
                > > Most allelopathic chemicals are leached out of
                > > wood chips over time. I use ramial wood chip
                > > mulch (which means lots of twigs, not just tree
                > > trunks) on my garden all the time, but I age it
                > > in my paths for at least 6 months (and usually
                > > 1-2 years) first.
                > >
                > > There's also some question about whether the
                > > allelopathic chemicals last very long in chipped
                > > wood vs. in the living tree. For instance, one
                > > study used chipped wood from walnut, eucalyptus,
                > > and a few other species to mulch saplings in tree
                > > pots and showed no effect on growth.
                > >
                > > Another study, from Universite Laval in Quebec,
                > > Canada, concluded that ramial wood chips are good
                > > for soils. At the time of the following report,
                > > ramial chipped wood (RCW) had been studied by 15
                > > researchers for at least 15 years.
                > >
                > > http://forestgeomat.for.ulaval.ca/brf
                > > UNIVERSITÉ LAVAL
                > > Département des Sciences du Bois et de la Forêt
                > > Québec G1K 7P4 Canada
                > >
                > > RAMIAL CHIPPED WOOD: A BASIC TOOL FOR REGENERATING SOILS
                > >
                > > by: Céline Caron
                > > décembre 1994
                > >
                > > Publication n° 50
                > >
                > > At 5:41 PM +0000 11/20/09, diebrand wrote:
                > > Frances,
                > >
                > > We haven't got any cedars. No good for this
                > > climate. My guess would be that it's best to
                > > avoid using large quantities. The basic rule of
                > > natural farming is not to use anything from
                > > outside the field. But this is impossible for
                > > most of us. Hence, if we use external biomass, it
                > > is best to introduce it in small doses so as not
                > > to alter the nature of the place too radically.
                > >
                > > Dieter
                > >
                > > --- In
                > > <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%2540yahoogroups.com>
                > > >fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > > <fdnokes@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > What about Cedar bark mulch?
                > > >
                > > > I have heard some people warn against its use...
                > > >
                > > > Frances
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • michaelhollihn
                hello group, not sure if this has been covered yet, i just popped in after avoiding the computer all summer and fall...if it helps, i have a pdf file of jean
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 22, 2009
                  hello group,
                  not sure if this has been covered yet, i just popped in after avoiding the computer all summer and fall...if it helps, i have a pdf file of jean pain's work making piles of, what should now be understood as, mycorrhizal innoculant from woody debris and wood chips...
                  here is the link to my blog where it can be downloaded

                  http://michaelhollihn.wordpress.com/healthy-people/food/growing-plants-without-turning-the-soil/one-sure-way-to-increase-mycorrhizal-fungi-in-your-soil/
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