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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Paddy harvesting - Natural style

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  • Nandan Palaparambil
    Yes, I think these methods can be improved further. Probably even a sickle can be used to cut it, still it will save lot of effort. Especially the local
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 15, 2009
      Yes, I think these methods can be improved further. Probably even a sickle can be used to cut it, still it will save lot of effort. Especially the local varieties of paddy grows tall (5ft or more) so that you may be able to cut without bending.

      When I met Srikanth in Vanashree farm, he mentioned that he used to do the same thing for raggi (millet).


      Regards,
      Nandan

      --- On Sat, 11/14/09, srinath hr <srinath.hr@...> wrote:

      From: srinath hr <srinath.hr@...>
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Paddy harvesting - Natural style
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 6:21 PM

      Dear Nandan,
      Thanks for Posting this info. Nice one..
      This procedure gives a personal touch to harvesting and allows you to
      carefully handle the grains. Also, I think an experienced person can harvest
      the paddy from both hands.

      Looking at the process I feel the fingers will be stressed after few hours
      of working. May be we can reduce this by providing serrations on the cutting
      edge of the tool to reduce the cutting forces.
      Also we can provide a small belt to the wooden handle to secure it to the
      palm- so that fingers are freed from holding it in between the cuts.

      Srinath



      2009/11/14 Nandan <p_k_nandanan@...>

      >
      >
      > Paddy harvesting requires lot of effort in cutting the straw at the base
      > and then carrying it back for threshing. In natural farming, this straw is
      > spread back in the field as mulch. Some time back, I was checking if we can
      > just pluck the grains alone from the rice plant so that lot of effort can be
      > saved.This way the effort for carrying back the paddy also can be avoided.
      >
      > Recently came across a blog in which describes about Rungus traditional way
      > which uses a small tool to cut the paddy without the straw (not sure if
      > there is a single word for this...)
      >
      >
      > http://mount-kinabalu-borneo.com/blog/paddy-harvesting-using-the-rungus-traditional-way.html
      >
      > Please see the link
      >
      > Regards,
      > Nandan
      >
      >
      >



      --

      Regards

      Srinath HR


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nandan
      You may have to check what is the best time to go for rice in your area. Seasons have great impact on the rice, recently one friend told me that in cold area
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 15, 2009
        You may have to check what is the best time to go for rice in your area. Seasons have great impact on the rice, recently one friend told me that in cold area rice takes around 10 months to harvest while the typical time is 3-4 months.

        Yes, we all should reject GMO seeds and should go for the local varieties to keep the bio-diversity. Bt-Brinjal is on the way to Indian farms, and there is lot of protest against this,hope we will be able to win the battle.


        Regards,
        Nandan

        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Jim Snyder <jim@...> wrote:
        >
        > Very interesting article! I would like to try some small scale rice farming on our land in central lower Michigan. This may be difficult with our sandy loam soil but I think I can overcome these challenges in a couple wetlands that become seasonably flooded.
        >
        > My primary concern is where to get native varieties of rice seed now that "invented rice" are becoming the primary strains available. Also, if one uses this natural method of harvest, will the rice that remains to sprout again be "owned" by the large company that produces it?
        >
        > We are no longer able to save seed in the United States if it is genetically modified (GMO) from the parent seed. Therefore, I avoid using any GMO seeds. I prefer native and heirloom varieties of seed. Some of my corn seed is a 2000 year old variety.
        >
        > JIm Snyder
        > Edmore, MI
        > http://farmersforasustainablefuture.ning.com/
        >
        > --- On Sat, 11/14/09, srinath hr <srinath.hr@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: srinath hr <srinath.hr@...>
        > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Paddy harvesting - Natural style
        > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 7:51 AM
        >
        > Dear Nandan,
        > Thanks for Posting this info. Nice one..
        > This procedure gives a personal touch to harvesting and allows you to
        > carefully handle the grains. Also, I think an experienced person can harvest
        > the paddy from both hands.
        >
        > Looking at the process I feel the fingers will be stressed after few hours
        > of working. May be we can reduce this by providing serrations on the cutting
        > edge of the tool to reduce the cutting forces.
        > Also we can provide a small belt to the wooden handle to secure it to the
        > palm- so that fingers are freed from holding it in between the cuts.
        >
        > Srinath
        >
        >
        >
        > 2009/11/14 Nandan <p_k_nandanan@...>
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > Paddy harvesting requires lot of effort in cutting the straw at the base
        > > and then carrying it back for threshing. In natural farming, this straw is
        > > spread back in the field as mulch. Some time back, I was checking if we can
        > > just pluck the grains alone from the rice plant so that lot of effort can be
        > > saved.This way the effort for carrying back the paddy also can be avoided.
        > >
        > > Recently came across a blog in which describes about Rungus traditional way
        > > which uses a small tool to cut the paddy without the straw (not sure if
        > > there is a single word for this...)
        > >
        > >
        > > http://mount-kinabalu-borneo.com/blog/paddy-harvesting-using-the-rungus-traditional-way.html
        > >
        > > Please see the link
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > > Nandan
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > Srinath HR
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Nandan
        Frank, Interesting, yes a long bag with a customised sickle may be good. Looking forward to your sketch. Regards, Nandan
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 15, 2009
          Frank,

          Interesting, yes a long bag with a customised sickle may be good. Looking forward to your sketch.



          Regards,
          Nandan

          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...> wrote:
          >
          > When I was a younger man, I worked in Arizona, USA picking citrus fruits.
          > Each orange, lemon, lime, grapefruit, etc., has to be cut individually with
          > a small pair of shears. The shears are in one hand, and attached to a
          > finger via a small loop of metal. The picker would carry a long bag over
          > one shoulder. As the fruits are picked, the worker flicks them into the bag
          > as the stem is snipped. Works well, but is hard on that one shoulder and
          > the picking hand, but are we not men? We can take the pain!
          >
          > The point is, perhaps something like that can be rigged up to harvest grain.
          > I'm thinking perhaps a sickle, sharpened to a razor, with a sort of catcher
          > attached to it, much like the old scythes that were used to harvest grain in
          > Europe and America. The scythe had a trio of curved,
          > wooden extensions above the long, curved blade to catch the grain stalks as
          > they are cut, and gently set aside on a neat pile. So if you have a small
          > sickle with a similar attachment on it, and a long bag over your shoulder,
          > you should be able to cut the grain heads and flick them into the bag quite
          > easily.
          >
          > I'll work on a drawing of what I'm thinking and try to post it.
          >
          > Frank
          >
          > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 7:51 AM, srinath hr <srinath.hr@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Dear Nandan,
          > > Thanks for Posting this info. Nice one..
          > > This procedure gives a personal touch to harvesting and allows you to
          > > carefully handle the grains. Also, I think an experienced person can
          > > harvest
          > > the paddy from both hands.
          > >
          > > Looking at the process I feel the fingers will be stressed after few hours
          > > of working. May be we can reduce this by providing serrations on the
          > > cutting
          > > edge of the tool to reduce the cutting forces.
          > > Also we can provide a small belt to the wooden handle to secure it to the
          > > palm- so that fingers are freed from holding it in between the cuts.
          > >
          > > Srinath
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > 2009/11/14 Nandan <p_k_nandanan@...>
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Paddy harvesting requires lot of effort in cutting the straw at the base
          > > > and then carrying it back for threshing. In natural farming, this straw
          > > is
          > > > spread back in the field as mulch. Some time back, I was checking if we
          > > can
          > > > just pluck the grains alone from the rice plant so that lot of effort can
          > > be
          > > > saved.This way the effort for carrying back the paddy also can be
          > > avoided.
          > > >
          > > > Recently came across a blog in which describes about Rungus traditional
          > > way
          > > > which uses a small tool to cut the paddy without the straw (not sure if
          > > > there is a single word for this...)
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > http://mount-kinabalu-borneo.com/blog/paddy-harvesting-using-the-rungus-traditional-way.html
          > > >
          > > > Please see the link
          > > >
          > > > Regards,
          > > > Nandan
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --
          > >
          > > Regards
          > >
          > > Srinath HR
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Nandan
          If cycle powered system can be worked out nothing like that.. Regards, Nandan
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 15, 2009
            If cycle powered system can be worked out nothing like that..

            Regards,
            Nandan



            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "alansloan@..." <alansloan@...> wrote:
            >
            > This is very interesting - apart from anything else I've never seen a rice plant before, even a picture! It seems to be a very beautiful
            > spray of grain - almost like a shower of raindrops or a frozen waterfall, Presumably when it is completely ripe and ready to shed the grain
            > it is the best time to harvest, for the seed is fully complete and in waiting to regrow.
            >
            > For Natural Farming logically it seems as if the straw should remain in the field as a mulch and soil conditioner/structure. If straw is
            > not needed for thatch or bedding, there is no advantage in carrying all that extra material back and forth.
            >
            > So why not have a comb which slips under the grain and positions the grain to be threshed direct into a container, there and then, leaving
            > all the rest of the plant standing or lying in the field? Such an arrangement could be mounted on a cycle powered system allowing one
            > person to harvest sufficient for several more than achievable by hand. The relatively simple mechanism would make the system locally
            > sustainable.
            >
            > Are there any cycle powered harvesters available anywhere? Nothing has turned up on a web search, though there are thousands more links
            > I didnt follow!
            >
            > Alan
            >
            >
            > >----Original Message----
            > >From: srinath.hr@...
            > >Date: 14/11/2009 12:51
            > >To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
            > >Subj: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Paddy harvesting - Natural style
            > >
            > >Dear Nandan,
            > >Thanks for Posting this info. Nice one..
            > >This procedure gives a personal touch to harvesting and allows you to
            > >carefully handle the grains. Also, I think an experienced person can harvest
            > >the paddy from both hands.
            > >
            > >Looking at the process I feel the fingers will be stressed after few hours
            > >of working. May be we can reduce this by providing serrations on the cutting
            > >edge of the tool to reduce the cutting forces.
            > >Also we can provide a small belt to the wooden handle to secure it to the
            > >palm- so that fingers are freed from holding it in between the cuts.
            > >
            > >Srinath
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >2009/11/14 Nandan <p_k_nandanan@...>
            > >
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Paddy harvesting requires lot of effort in cutting the straw at the base
            > >> and then carrying it back for threshing. In natural farming, this straw is
            > >> spread back in the field as mulch. Some time back, I was checking if we can
            > >> just pluck the grains alone from the rice plant so that lot of effort can be
            > >> saved.This way the effort for carrying back the paddy also can be avoided.
            > >>
            > >> Recently came across a blog in which describes about Rungus traditional way
            > >> which uses a small tool to cut the paddy without the straw (not sure if
            > >> there is a single word for this...)
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> http://mount-kinabalu-borneo.com/blog/paddy-harvesting-using-the-rungus-traditional-way.html
            > >>
            > >> Please see the link
            > >>
            > >> Regards,
            > >> Nandan
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >--
            > >
            > >Regards
            > >
            > >Srinath HR
            > >
            > >
            > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >------------------------------------
            > >
            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Fun games for all the family from Tiscali Play - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play
            >
          • Jim Snyder
            Hello - rice is not normally grown in this area but we have a good hot summer that follows a wet Spring. The growing season is 160 days between hard frosts
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 15, 2009
              Hello - rice is not normally grown in this area but we have a good hot summer that follows a wet Spring. The growing season is 160 days between hard frosts with a typical drought for about a month in August. I would think the climate ideal for a short season rice variety.

              It just doesn't seem right that we have to fight large Ag business companies to retain and conserve native varieties of seed.

              Jim Snyder
              Edmore, MI
               

              --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Nandan <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:

              From: Nandan <p_k_nandanan@...>
              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Paddy harvesting - Natural style
              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 9:28 AM







               









              You may have to check what is the best time to go for rice in your area. Seasons have great impact on the rice, recently one friend told me that in cold area rice takes around 10 months to harvest while the typical time is 3-4 months.



              Yes, we all should reject GMO seeds and should go for the local varieties to keep the bio-diversity. Bt-Brinjal is on the way to Indian farms, and there is lot of protest against this,hope we will be able to win the battle.



              Regards,

              Nandan



              --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Jim Snyder <jim@...> wrote:

              >

              > Very interesting article! I would like to try some small scale rice farming on our land in central lower Michigan. This may be difficult with our sandy loam soil but I think I can overcome these challenges in a couple wetlands that become seasonably flooded.

              >

              > My primary concern is where to get native varieties of rice seed now that "invented rice" are becoming the primary strains available. Also, if one uses this natural method of harvest, will the rice that remains to sprout again be "owned" by the large company that produces it?

              >

              > We are no longer able to save seed in the United States if it is genetically modified (GMO) from the parent seed. Therefore, I avoid using any GMO seeds. I prefer native and heirloom varieties of seed. Some of my corn seed is a 2000 year old variety.

              >

              > JIm Snyder

              > Edmore, MI

              > http://farmersforas ustainablefuture .ning.com/

              >

              > --- On Sat, 11/14/09, srinath hr <srinath.hr@ ...> wrote:

              >

              > From: srinath hr <srinath.hr@ ...>

              > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Paddy harvesting - Natural style

              > To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com

              > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 7:51 AM

              >

              > Dear Nandan,

              > Thanks for Posting this info. Nice one..

              > This procedure gives a personal touch to harvesting and allows you to

              > carefully handle the grains. Also, I think an experienced person can harvest

              > the paddy from both hands.

              >

              > Looking at the process I feel the fingers will be stressed after few hours

              > of working. May be we can reduce this by providing serrations on the cutting

              > edge of the tool to reduce the cutting forces.

              > Also we can provide a small belt to the wooden handle to secure it to the

              > palm- so that fingers are freed from holding it in between the cuts.

              >

              > Srinath

              >

              >

              >

              > 2009/11/14 Nandan <p_k_nandanan@ ...>

              >

              > >

              > >

              > > Paddy harvesting requires lot of effort in cutting the straw at the base

              > > and then carrying it back for threshing. In natural farming, this straw is

              > > spread back in the field as mulch. Some time back, I was checking if we can

              > > just pluck the grains alone from the rice plant so that lot of effort can be

              > > saved.This way the effort for carrying back the paddy also can be avoided.

              > >

              > > Recently came across a blog in which describes about Rungus traditional way

              > > which uses a small tool to cut the paddy without the straw (not sure if

              > > there is a single word for this...)

              > >

              > >

              > > http://mount- kinabalu- borneo.com/ blog/paddy- harvesting- using-the- rungus-tradition al-way.html

              > >

              > > Please see the link

              > >

              > > Regards,

              > > Nandan

              > >

              > >

              > >

              >

              >

              >

              > --

              >

              > Regards

              >

              > Srinath HR

              >

              >

              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              >

              >

              >

              > ------------ --------- --------- ------

              >

              > Yahoo! Groups Links

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              >






















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Gibson
              How about a cycle powered helicopter so the wheels don t get stuck in the mud? LOL That way you could just fly over the field and never get your feet wet too.
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 15, 2009
                How about a cycle powered helicopter so the wheels don't get stuck in
                the mud? LOL That way you could just fly over the field and never get
                your feet wet too. Maybe a bicycle where the wheels are completely
                behind the operator so the wheels don't run over the grain? Is there
                such a thing? Rice is planted randomly in a paddy, not in neat rows that
                you can drive down.

                Brute force, using the largest muscles in your body, harvesting grain
                would probably decrease the value of the enterprise. I know a number of
                peope that would like to replace machinery, animals, and fine motor
                movement combined with intelligence with something powered by a bicycle.
                This is often not an appropiate use of technology. The increased use of
                energy, when viewed as an investment, means that the return on the
                energy and financial investment (ROI) could, would probably, lower the
                overall value of the project.

                Sometimes the simplest things work best. Technology should only be used
                when there is a cost and energy efficient application that increases the
                value.

                Tom Gibson
                >
                > So why not have a comb which slips under the grain and positions the
                grain to be threshed direct into a container, there and then, leaving
                > all the rest of the plant standing or lying in the field? Such an
                arrangement could be mounted on a cycle powered system allowing one
                > person to harvest sufficient for several more than achievable by hand.
                The relatively simple mechanism would make the system locally
                > sustainable.
                >
                > Are there any cycle powered harvesters available anywhere? Nothing has
                turned up on a web search, though there are thousands more links
                > I didnt follow!



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Robert Monie
                Hi, Louis Koch of New York City invented a moving treadmill powered harvester in the late 1850 s that was reported in Scientific American in 1859. See
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 15, 2009
                  Hi,

                  Louis Koch of New York City invented a "moving treadmill powered harvester" in the late 1850's that was reported in Scientific American in 1859. See
                  http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/invent/harvest.htm or google to
                  American Artifacts Imaginative Invention No 2 for a drawing and brief description of the device.

                  Bob Monie
                  New Orleans, LA
                  Zone 8

                  --- On Sun, 11/15/09, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...> wrote:

                  From: Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>
                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Paddy harvesting - Natural style
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 3:22 PM







                   











                  How about a cycle powered helicopter so the wheels don't get stuck in

                  the mud? LOL That way you could just fly over the field and never get

                  your feet wet too. Maybe a bicycle where the wheels are completely

                  behind the operator so the wheels don't run over the grain? Is there

                  such a thing? Rice is planted randomly in a paddy, not in neat rows that

                  you can drive down.



                  Brute force, using the largest muscles in your body, harvesting grain

                  would probably decrease the value of the enterprise. I know a number of

                  peope that would like to replace machinery, animals, and fine motor

                  movement combined with intelligence with something powered by a bicycle.

                  This is often not an appropiate use of technology. The increased use of

                  energy, when viewed as an investment, means that the return on the

                  energy and financial investment (ROI) could, would probably, lower the

                  overall value of the project.



                  Sometimes the simplest things work best. Technology should only be used

                  when there is a cost and energy efficient application that increases the

                  value.



                  Tom Gibson

                  >

                  > So why not have a comb which slips under the grain and positions the

                  grain to be threshed direct into a container, there and then, leaving

                  > all the rest of the plant standing or lying in the field? Such an

                  arrangement could be mounted on a cycle powered system allowing one

                  > person to harvest sufficient for several more than achievable by hand.

                  The relatively simple mechanism would make the system locally

                  > sustainable.

                  >

                  > Are there any cycle powered harvesters available anywhere? Nothing has

                  turned up on a web search, though there are thousands more links

                  > I didnt follow!



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • diebrand
                  Nandan, What you want is a combine harvester ;-). That thing cuts and threshes on-site, then fills the grains into bags and leaves the straw on the field. But
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 16, 2009
                    Nandan,

                    What you want is a combine harvester ;-). That thing cuts and threshes on-site, then fills the grains into bags and leaves the straw on the field.

                    But seriously, this year I harvested a small test plot of wheat by cutting the ears with a pair of scissors because cutting with a scythe was out of the question due to the weeds and shrubs growing in that field. It was rather cumbersome and I think it isn't very suitable even for small-scale farming.

                    I don't have enough water to grow rice. But in traditional and natural farming in Japan, rice is cut at the base with a sickle, bound in bundles and suspended for drying on temporary bamboo structures in the field before it is threshed and hulled. The threshing and hulling can be done on or near the field.

                    Dieter
                  • Tom Gibson
                    Dieter, You need a combine harvester if you have a thousand acres to harvest. They cost over $100,000 to buy and thousands of dollars a day to operate. What
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 17, 2009
                      Dieter,

                      You need a combine harvester if you have a thousand acres to harvest. They
                      cost over $100,000 to buy and thousands of dollars a day to operate. What
                      part of natural farming does that take place in? This hand tool is one of
                      the best suggestions I have seen for the small holder. Can't understand why
                      so many people think that he was looking for a fix. I want to know where I
                      can get one of those hand scythes, not a bicycle driven combine harvester
                      helicopter spacecraft whiz bang technology that was developed to make
                      monoculture cropping systems more viable.



                      You can see what is going on in our food forest
                      and get more information about local food security at
                      <http://camaspermaculture.blogspot.com/> www.camaspermaculture.org

                      Tom Gibson





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Frank McAvinchey
                      I haven t started my design for a modified sickle yet, but will shortly. Let s see whether we can come up with something viable and effective, and dirt cheap.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 17, 2009
                        I haven't started my design for a modified sickle yet, but will shortly.
                        Let's see whether we can come up with something viable and effective, and
                        dirt cheap. I guess I wonder what size acreage is a do-able size for a
                        small number of people, say a family of 6? Without using any mechanization,
                        how many acres can a family of six handle over the course of a year?

                        Frank

                        On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > Dieter,
                        >
                        > You need a combine harvester if you have a thousand acres to harvest. They
                        > cost over $100,000 to buy and thousands of dollars a day to operate. What
                        > part of natural farming does that take place in? This hand tool is one of
                        > the best suggestions I have seen for the small holder. Can't understand why
                        > so many people think that he was looking for a fix. I want to know where I
                        > can get one of those hand scythes, not a bicycle driven combine harvester
                        > helicopter spacecraft whiz bang technology that was developed to make
                        > monoculture cropping systems more viable.
                        >
                        > You can see what is going on in our food forest
                        > and get more information about local food security at
                        > <http://camaspermaculture.blogspot.com/> www.camaspermaculture.org
                        >
                        > Tom Gibson
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Frank McAvinchey
                        Tom, Can you make any recommendations regarding creating a food forest here in southwestern Ohio, USA? Frank ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 17, 2009
                          Tom,

                          Can you make any recommendations regarding creating a food forest here in
                          southwestern Ohio, USA?

                          Frank

                          On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > Dieter,
                          >
                          > You need a combine harvester if you have a thousand acres to harvest. They
                          > cost over $100,000 to buy and thousands of dollars a day to operate. What
                          > part of natural farming does that take place in? This hand tool is one of
                          > the best suggestions I have seen for the small holder. Can't understand why
                          > so many people think that he was looking for a fix. I want to know where I
                          > can get one of those hand scythes, not a bicycle driven combine harvester
                          > helicopter spacecraft whiz bang technology that was developed to make
                          > monoculture cropping systems more viable.
                          >
                          > You can see what is going on in our food forest
                          > and get more information about local food security at
                          > <http://camaspermaculture.blogspot.com/> www.camaspermaculture.org
                          >
                          > Tom Gibson
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • alansloan@tiscali.co.uk
                          If you are content to harvest nuts, as I am, you need neither scythe, sickle nor cycle powered combine, just a strategy to deal with squirrels. If you want
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 17, 2009
                            If you are content to harvest nuts, as I am, you need neither scythe, sickle nor cycle powered combine, just a strategy to deal with
                            squirrels.

                            If you want rice, oats, barley or wheat then you have to have some understanding of the root energy economics of gathering them. Because
                            of the number of all the individual little grains involved, Corn of any description is hard work or impossible without machinery, but
                            the basic economics are well known. The craft techniques of things like bundling into sheaves, rick building, threshing and the like still
                            exist, but only in museums.

                            If you have an acre of whealt and you can handle that with six people you're doing very well indeed. Keep us posted!

                            A sickle is a hooked blade with handle close to the blade, and has to be used bending down or at least close to the work. Presumably you
                            are looking to use it standing, close to the work and to modify it to gather your top-crop into a bag.

                            An european scythe is a longer, curved blade on a longer handle which has teo side handles for hte best ergonomic grip and has been
                            designed to maximise the cut for the minimum of effort. A good man was supposed to be able to cut an acre a day.

                            I have used the scythe to cut hay, and it is very hard work and I never did over a half acre in one day.

                            A scythe will only be of use for corn harvesting if you wish to gather the straw as well as the grain. ( It can be modified to collect
                            the corn into a bundle ready to tie into a sheaf. ) I am suggesting that a natural corn system may be developed which leaves the stalk in
                            place to condition the next crop. For this a scythe would not be appropriate.

                            A scythe should be fitted to your body by a skilled blacksmith, who will adjust the handles and handle length to your frame to minimise
                            the effort. This person may never have heard the word ergonomic, but will understand the term very well. If you have a person in your
                            area who understands this you will be very lucky indeed.

                            You are very unlikely to be able to improve on these two tools, but good for you for trying, and I hope you do succeed! Even learning to
                            use the traditional forms properly will be an achievement. They have evolved over centuries into the current forms, and with the effort of
                            people like you they will continue to evolve.

                            I am attracted to natural farming because of the intelligent low input philosophy, and cannot understand why anyone interested in the
                            subject would wish either sickle or scythe on anybody IF there is an alternative.

                            So far there is no small scale alternative. A cycle powered harvester does not exist yet, but in a Natural Farming system in certain
                            economic conditions it may well be of use. If it turns out to have a positive EROI over the whole system it would be well placed to
                            supersede the diesel powered machinery in the unlikely event of oil becoming too scarce for prarie farmers to afford. The amount of oil
                            required to run the worlds's combine harvesters is tiny compared to the overall total, maybe 1%, and it is very unlikely that governments
                            will allow the remaining cars to use up fuel that is more useful for food production.

                            The cycle powered harvester is a sensible middle line between those who have unrealistic aspirations to self support with a grain based
                            diet, and those who imagine that prairie scale operations are either desireable or sustainable. Such a machine would be a genuine
                            departure from both conventional cheap energy economics and well meaning but misguided anti-technological sentiment.

                            The real problem is NOT with the wheels, tracks or feet. Such problems are simple to solve.

                            The problem is to find an effective method of gathering the seed heads to a point where they can be threshed to release the grain, and the
                            actual threshing mechanism. With the right threshing mechanism, it is possible the the operator could guide the corn with his hands while
                            the threshing power is generated by leg movement, but it would be nice to have a little more distance from the work, if possible.
                            Simplicity is desireable, but reliability is essential.

                            Remember the thing that Japanese chap, cant remember his name, discovered about leaving the rice straw long? Fungi travelled along the
                            stalk, and the decay process happened at a different speed. Gathering the seed from the stalk and leaving the stalk attached to the root in
                            the field will have a different decay ecology to cutting it and transporting it away for processing. This has imp-lications for soil
                            structure and nutrient retention, animal populations, shelter for following crop etc etc.

                            In western europe the seasonal temperature cycle means that planting can happen following or possible during harvest. I dont know if
                            anyone has experience of using the trash from the preceeding crop to nurse the new shoots, but i have often noticed that the microclimate
                            around piles of twigs seems to encourage grass to grow. (of course this may be due to protection from grazing animals?)

                            Excess fungal loading may be a problem in the following year, so appropriate rotations may need to be worked. A whole new set of problems
                            and solutions arises, this is not boring, but it will be a while before any real farmer will be betting the ranch!

                            Alan.
                            .


                            >----Original Message----
                            >From: fmcavin@...
                            >Date: 17/11/2009 22:37
                            >To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                            >Subj: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Paddy harvesting - Natural style
                            >
                            >I haven't started my design for a modified sickle yet, but will shortly.
                            > Let's see whether we can come up with something viable and effective, and
                            >dirt cheap. I guess I wonder what size acreage is a do-able size for a
                            >small number of people, say a family of 6? Without using any mechanization,
                            >how many acres can a family of six handle over the course of a year?
                            >
                            >Frank
                            >
                            >On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Tom Gibson <camaspermaculture@...>wrote:
                            >
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Dieter,
                            >>
                            >> You need a combine harvester if you have a thousand acres to harvest. They
                            >> cost over $100,000 to buy and thousands of dollars a day to operate. What
                            >> part of natural farming does that take place in? This hand tool is one of
                            >> the best suggestions I have seen for the small holder. Can't understand why
                            >> so many people think that he was looking for a fix. I want to know where I
                            >> can get one of those hand scythes, not a bicycle driven combine harvester
                            >> helicopter spacecraft whiz bang technology that was developed to make
                            >> monoculture cropping systems more viable.
                            >>
                            >> You can see what is going on in our food forest
                            >> and get more information about local food security at
                            >> <http://camaspermaculture.blogspot.com/> www.camaspermaculture.org
                            >>
                            >> Tom Gibson
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >------------------------------------
                            >
                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >




                            Legal music downloads to keep at no cost - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/downloads
                          • fdnokes@hotmail.com
                            The fight needs people that sees things as you do. Cheers! Frances It just doesn t seem right that we have to fight large Ag business companies to retain and
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 17, 2009
                              The fight needs people that sees things as you do.

                              Cheers!
                              Frances


                              It just doesn't seem right that we have to fight large Ag business companies to retain and conserve native varieties of seed.

                              Jim Snyder
                              Edmore, MI




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • david.keltie@gmail.com
                              You replace grains in your diet entirely/partly with nuts? Tell me more. Where are you? Climate/soil? What varieties do you grow? What yields do you get? How
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 18, 2009
                                You replace grains in your diet entirely/partly with nuts? Tell me
                                more. Where are you? Climate/soil? What varieties do you grow? What
                                yields do you get? How do use your crop?

                                The UK's natural state is forest - IMHO we need to learn more about
                                agroforestry and move more to a diet based on fruit & nuts than grain
                                and annual vegetables (that was Robert Hart's view in 'Forest
                                Gardening' but I'm only now beginning to realise the implications of
                                his practice).

                                However, I'm woefully ignorant about nuts as a serious crop in
                                small-scale systems. We have many hazelnuts here, a lot of sweet
                                chestnuts (but with tiny nuts outside the South East of England),
                                walnuts do reasonably well, don't know about almonds, pecans. Plenty
                                of acorns and beech mast but don't seem to be used much for food other
                                than indirectly (pigs were traditionally grazed in the Autumn among
                                oak/beech trees). There are some enthusiasts here for monkey puzzle
                                tree pine nuts as a crop, but the very size of the tree may make it
                                difficult to factor into small-scale systems....

                                Anyone else know about nuts? Any reading to recommend?

                                Many thanks, David



                                On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:56 PM, alansloan@...
                                <alansloan@...> wrote:
                                >  If you are content to harvest nuts, as I am, you need neither scythe, sickle nor cycle powered combine, just a strategy to deal with
                                > squirrels.
                              • Frank McAvinchey
                                Check out Hicans, a mix between pecans and a species of Hickory, much more cold tolerant. We have Black Walnuts here in Ohio, and they also grow very well in
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 18, 2009
                                  Check out Hicans, a mix between pecans and a species of Hickory, much more
                                  cold tolerant. We have Black Walnuts here in Ohio, and they also grow very
                                  well in Michigan, a cold state. It would be wise to seek out varieties with
                                  thinner shells, and look up black walnut cracking devises for them as they
                                  are VERY hard. We have the American Chestnut here, which MIGHT do well
                                  there? It grows into a huge tree, however, if it survives. Chinkopins are
                                  another option, a small, bush-like chestnut. Hartnut is another walnut
                                  family member, from Japan, I believe. We also have the Butternut here, also
                                  known as White Walnut, which is cold tolerant and very good. Then there's
                                  Shagbark Hickory. Check out Cornell University's Hickory page,
                                  http://hickory.cce.cornell.edu/

                                  <http://hickory.cce.cornell.edu/>Pawpaw is a fruit tree that grows here as
                                  an understory tree/bush. It gives a large fruit, the largest fruit native
                                  to North America actually, that many think tastes like a banana. It is
                                  oblong, containing several large seeds, and is usually very tasty when ripe.
                                  We also have a variety of persimmon that would surely grow well there. The
                                  tree needs to be planted with others to ensure good pollination, and to give
                                  yourself a better chance of getting a tree that produces well. These
                                  persimmons are very astringent when green, but when fully ripe, are sweeter
                                  then most of the asian varieties. The tree grows to around 30-50 ft. tall.

                                  Cheers,

                                  Frank

                                  On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:19 AM, <david.keltie@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > You replace grains in your diet entirely/partly with nuts? Tell me
                                  > more. Where are you? Climate/soil? What varieties do you grow? What
                                  > yields do you get? How do use your crop?
                                  >
                                  > The UK's natural state is forest - IMHO we need to learn more about
                                  > agroforestry and move more to a diet based on fruit & nuts than grain
                                  > and annual vegetables (that was Robert Hart's view in 'Forest
                                  > Gardening' but I'm only now beginning to realise the implications of
                                  > his practice).
                                  >
                                  > However, I'm woefully ignorant about nuts as a serious crop in
                                  > small-scale systems. We have many hazelnuts here, a lot of sweet
                                  > chestnuts (but with tiny nuts outside the South East of England),
                                  > walnuts do reasonably well, don't know about almonds, pecans. Plenty
                                  > of acorns and beech mast but don't seem to be used much for food other
                                  > than indirectly (pigs were traditionally grazed in the Autumn among
                                  > oak/beech trees). There are some enthusiasts here for monkey puzzle
                                  > tree pine nuts as a crop, but the very size of the tree may make it
                                  > difficult to factor into small-scale systems....
                                  >
                                  > Anyone else know about nuts? Any reading to recommend?
                                  >
                                  > Many thanks, David
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:56 PM, alansloan@...<alansloan%40tiscali.co.uk>
                                  > <alansloan@... <alansloan%40tiscali.co.uk>> wrote:
                                  > > If you are content to harvest nuts, as I am, you need neither scythe,
                                  > sickle nor cycle powered combine, just a strategy to deal with
                                  > > squirrels.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Douglas
                                  Hey Frank, We are going to be starting some Pawpaw s this coming spring from seed. Looking forward to seeing how they do in this neck of the woods. You most
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 18, 2009
                                    Hey Frank,

                                    We are going to be starting some Pawpaw's this coming spring from seed.
                                    Looking forward to seeing how they do in this neck of the woods.

                                    You most likely already know this but the black walnut has stuff in it that
                                    is toxic to most other plants. I forget the name of it but it is in all
                                    parts of the tree including the leaves.
                                    Just wouldn't want to see you include them in your mulch.

                                    Dave in the Adirondacks



                                    On 11/18/09, Frank McAvinchey <fmcavin@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Check out Hicans, a mix between pecans and a species of Hickory, much more
                                    > cold tolerant. We have Black Walnuts here in Ohio, and they also grow very
                                    > well in Michigan, a cold state. It would be wise to seek out varieties
                                    > with
                                    > thinner shells, and look up black walnut cracking devises for them as they
                                    > are VERY hard. We have the American Chestnut here, which MIGHT do well
                                    > there? It grows into a huge tree, however, if it survives. Chinkopins are
                                    > another option, a small, bush-like chestnut. Hartnut is another walnut
                                    > family member, from Japan, I believe. We also have the Butternut here,
                                    > also
                                    > known as White Walnut, which is cold tolerant and very good. Then there's
                                    > Shagbark Hickory. Check out Cornell University's Hickory page,
                                    > http://hickory.cce.cornell.edu/
                                    >
                                    > <http://hickory.cce.cornell.edu/>Pawpaw is a fruit tree that grows here as
                                    > an understory tree/bush. It gives a large fruit, the largest fruit native
                                    > to North America actually, that many think tastes like a banana. It is
                                    > oblong, containing several large seeds, and is usually very tasty when
                                    > ripe.
                                    > We also have a variety of persimmon that would surely grow well there. The
                                    > tree needs to be planted with others to ensure good pollination, and to
                                    > give
                                    > yourself a better chance of getting a tree that produces well. These
                                    > persimmons are very astringent when green, but when fully ripe, are sweeter
                                    > then most of the asian varieties. The tree grows to around 30-50 ft. tall.
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    >
                                    > Frank
                                    >
                                    > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:19 AM, <david.keltie@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > You replace grains in your diet entirely/partly with nuts? Tell me
                                    > > more. Where are you? Climate/soil? What varieties do you grow? What
                                    > > yields do you get? How do use your crop?
                                    > >
                                    > > The UK's natural state is forest - IMHO we need to learn more about
                                    > > agroforestry and move more to a diet based on fruit & nuts than grain
                                    > > and annual vegetables (that was Robert Hart's view in 'Forest
                                    > > Gardening' but I'm only now beginning to realise the implications of
                                    > > his practice).
                                    > >
                                    > > However, I'm woefully ignorant about nuts as a serious crop in
                                    > > small-scale systems. We have many hazelnuts here, a lot of sweet
                                    > > chestnuts (but with tiny nuts outside the South East of England),
                                    > > walnuts do reasonably well, don't know about almonds, pecans. Plenty
                                    > > of acorns and beech mast but don't seem to be used much for food other
                                    > > than indirectly (pigs were traditionally grazed in the Autumn among
                                    > > oak/beech trees). There are some enthusiasts here for monkey puzzle
                                    > > tree pine nuts as a crop, but the very size of the tree may make it
                                    > > difficult to factor into small-scale systems....
                                    > >
                                    > > Anyone else know about nuts? Any reading to recommend?
                                    > >
                                    > > Many thanks, David
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:56 PM, alansloan@...<alansloan%
                                    > 40tiscali.co.uk>
                                    > > <alansloan@... <alansloan%40tiscali.co.uk>> wrote:
                                    > > > If you are content to harvest nuts, as I am, you need neither scythe,
                                    > > sickle nor cycle powered combine, just a strategy to deal with
                                    > > > squirrels.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • shultonus
                                    There are hardy peacans that grow up here in ND... and produce 7 out of 10 years...... also carpathian walnut is hardy to zone 5.... hazelnuts and filbrets are
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 18, 2009
                                      There are hardy peacans that grow up here in ND... and produce 7 out of 10 years......
                                      also carpathian walnut is hardy to zone 5....
                                      hazelnuts and filbrets are shrubs...
                                      buartnut- butternur/heartnut cross.... zone 3 hardy
                                      .. chinese chestnut is a small tree zone 5 hardy
                                      cold kiwi vines... zone 4



                                      > Check out Hicans, a mix between pecans and a species of Hickory, much more
                                      > cold tolerant. We have Black Walnuts here in Ohio, and they also grow very
                                      > well in Michigan, a cold state. It would be wise to seek out varieties with
                                      > thinner shells, and look up black walnut cracking devises for them as they
                                      > are VERY hard. We have the American Chestnut here, which MIGHT do well
                                      > there? It grows into a huge tree, however, if it survives. Chinkopins are
                                      > another option, a small, bush-like chestnut. Hartnut is another walnut
                                      > family member, from Japan, I believe. We also have the Butternut here, also
                                      > known as White Walnut, which is cold tolerant and very good. Then there's
                                      > Shagbark Hickory. Check out Cornell University's Hickory page,
                                      > http://hickory.cce.cornell.edu/
                                      >
                                      > <http://hickory.cce.cornell.edu/>Pawpaw is a fruit tree that grows here as
                                      > an understory tree/bush. It gives a large fruit, the largest fruit native
                                      > to North America actually, that many think tastes like a banana. It is
                                      > oblong, containing several large seeds, and is usually very tasty when ripe.
                                      > We also have a variety of persimmon that would surely grow well there. The
                                      > tree needs to be planted with others to ensure good pollination, and to give
                                      > yourself a better chance of getting a tree that produces well. These
                                      > persimmons are very astringent when green, but when fully ripe, are sweeter
                                      > then most of the asian varieties. The tree grows to around 30-50 ft. tall.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers,
                                      >
                                      > Frank
                                      >
                                      > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:19 AM, <david.keltie@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > You replace grains in your diet entirely/partly with nuts? Tell me
                                      > > more. Where are you? Climate/soil? What varieties do you grow? What
                                      > > yields do you get? How do use your crop?
                                      > >
                                      > > The UK's natural state is forest - IMHO we need to learn more about
                                      > > agroforestry and move more to a diet based on fruit & nuts than grain
                                      > > and annual vegetables (that was Robert Hart's view in 'Forest
                                      > > Gardening' but I'm only now beginning to realise the implications of
                                      > > his practice).
                                      > >
                                      > > However, I'm woefully ignorant about nuts as a serious crop in
                                      > > small-scale systems. We have many hazelnuts here, a lot of sweet
                                      > > chestnuts (but with tiny nuts outside the South East of England),
                                      > > walnuts do reasonably well, don't know about almonds, pecans. Plenty
                                      > > of acorns and beech mast but don't seem to be used much for food other
                                      > > than indirectly (pigs were traditionally grazed in the Autumn among
                                      > > oak/beech trees). There are some enthusiasts here for monkey puzzle
                                      > > tree pine nuts as a crop, but the very size of the tree may make it
                                      > > difficult to factor into small-scale systems....
                                      > >
                                      > > Anyone else know about nuts? Any reading to recommend?
                                      > >
                                      > > Many thanks, David
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:56 PM, alansloan@...<alansloan%40tiscali.co.uk>
                                      > > <alansloan@... <alansloan%40tiscali.co.uk>> wrote:
                                      > > > If you are content to harvest nuts, as I am, you need neither scythe,
                                      > > sickle nor cycle powered combine, just a strategy to deal with
                                      > > > squirrels.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • Jim Snyder
                                      We have a couple hardy almonds doing well in zone 5 in central lower Michigan. My favorite fruit comes from our 3 varieties of Asian pears. Sent from my
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 18, 2009
                                        We have a couple hardy almonds doing well in zone 5 in central lower Michigan. My favorite fruit comes from our 3 varieties of Asian pears.

                                        Sent from my BlackBerry

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: "shultonus" <shultonus@...>
                                        Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:27:38
                                        To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Paddy harvesting - Natural style

                                        There are hardy peacans that grow up here in ND... and produce 7 out of 10 years......
                                        also carpathian walnut is hardy to zone 5....
                                        hazelnuts and filbrets are shrubs...
                                        buartnut- butternur/heartnut cross.... zone 3 hardy
                                        .. chinese chestnut is a small tree zone 5 hardy
                                        cold kiwi vines... zone 4



                                        > Check out Hicans, a mix between pecans and a species of Hickory, much more
                                        > cold tolerant. We have Black Walnuts here in Ohio, and they also grow very
                                        > well in Michigan, a cold state. It would be wise to seek out varieties with
                                        > thinner shells, and look up black walnut cracking devises for them as they
                                        > are VERY hard. We have the American Chestnut here, which MIGHT do well
                                        > there? It grows into a huge tree, however, if it survives. Chinkopins are
                                        > another option, a small, bush-like chestnut. Hartnut is another walnut
                                        > family member, from Japan, I believe. We also have the Butternut here, also
                                        > known as White Walnut, which is cold tolerant and very good. Then there's
                                        > Shagbark Hickory. Check out Cornell University's Hickory page,
                                        > http://hickory.cce.cornell.edu/
                                        >
                                        > <http://hickory.cce.cornell.edu/>Pawpaw is a fruit tree that grows here as
                                        > an understory tree/bush. It gives a large fruit, the largest fruit native
                                        > to North America actually, that many think tastes like a banana. It is
                                        > oblong, containing several large seeds, and is usually very tasty when ripe.
                                        > We also have a variety of persimmon that would surely grow well there. The
                                        > tree needs to be planted with others to ensure good pollination, and to give
                                        > yourself a better chance of getting a tree that produces well. These
                                        > persimmons are very astringent when green, but when fully ripe, are sweeter
                                        > then most of the asian varieties. The tree grows to around 30-50 ft. tall.
                                        >
                                        > Cheers,
                                        >
                                        > Frank
                                        >
                                        > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:19 AM, <david.keltie@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > You replace grains in your diet entirely/partly with nuts? Tell me
                                        > > more. Where are you? Climate/soil? What varieties do you grow? What
                                        > > yields do you get? How do use your crop?
                                        > >
                                        > > The UK's natural state is forest - IMHO we need to learn more about
                                        > > agroforestry and move more to a diet based on fruit & nuts than grain
                                        > > and annual vegetables (that was Robert Hart's view in 'Forest
                                        > > Gardening' but I'm only now beginning to realise the implications of
                                        > > his practice).
                                        > >
                                        > > However, I'm woefully ignorant about nuts as a serious crop in
                                        > > small-scale systems. We have many hazelnuts here, a lot of sweet
                                        > > chestnuts (but with tiny nuts outside the South East of England),
                                        > > walnuts do reasonably well, don't know about almonds, pecans. Plenty
                                        > > of acorns and beech mast but don't seem to be used much for food other
                                        > > than indirectly (pigs were traditionally grazed in the Autumn among
                                        > > oak/beech trees). There are some enthusiasts here for monkey puzzle
                                        > > tree pine nuts as a crop, but the very size of the tree may make it
                                        > > difficult to factor into small-scale systems....
                                        > >
                                        > > Anyone else know about nuts? Any reading to recommend?
                                        > >
                                        > > Many thanks, David
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:56 PM, alansloan@...<alansloan%40tiscali.co.uk>
                                        > > <alansloan@... <alansloan%40tiscali.co.uk>> wrote:
                                        > > > If you are content to harvest nuts, as I am, you need neither scythe,
                                        > > sickle nor cycle powered combine, just a strategy to deal with
                                        > > > squirrels.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Linda Shewan
                                        Tree Crops by Russell Smith - looks like google books has the full text and there are other places you can get it as well... And most forest gardening books
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 18, 2009
                                          Tree Crops by Russell Smith - looks like google books has the full text and
                                          there are other places you can get it as well...



                                          And most forest gardening books would have a section on nut trees as well
                                          eg. Edible Forest Gardens, How to Make a Forest Garden etc



                                          Cheers, Linda



                                          From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                          [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of david.keltie@...
                                          Sent: Wednesday, 18 November 2009 8:20 PM
                                          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Paddy harvesting - Natural style





                                          You replace grains in your diet entirely/partly with nuts? Tell me
                                          more. Where are you? Climate/soil? What varieties do you grow? What
                                          yields do you get? How do use your crop?

                                          The UK's natural state is forest - IMHO we need to learn more about
                                          agroforestry and move more to a diet based on fruit & nuts than grain
                                          and annual vegetables (that was Robert Hart's view in 'Forest
                                          Gardening' but I'm only now beginning to realise the implications of
                                          his practice).

                                          However, I'm woefully ignorant about nuts as a serious crop in
                                          small-scale systems. We have many hazelnuts here, a lot of sweet
                                          chestnuts (but with tiny nuts outside the South East of England),
                                          walnuts do reasonably well, don't know about almonds, pecans. Plenty
                                          of acorns and beech mast but don't seem to be used much for food other
                                          than indirectly (pigs were traditionally grazed in the Autumn among
                                          oak/beech trees). There are some enthusiasts here for monkey puzzle
                                          tree pine nuts as a crop, but the very size of the tree may make it
                                          difficult to factor into small-scale systems....

                                          Anyone else know about nuts? Any reading to recommend?

                                          Many thanks, David

                                          On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:56 PM, alansloan@...
                                          <mailto:alansloan%40tiscali.co.uk>
                                          <alansloan@... <mailto:alansloan%40tiscali.co.uk> > wrote:
                                          > If you are content to harvest nuts, as I am, you need neither scythe,
                                          sickle nor cycle powered combine, just a strategy to deal with
                                          > squirrels.





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • david.keltie@gmail.com
                                          Thanks for your reply - i ll check out your first recommendation. The others i ve read but they re more talking about rather than detailed descriptions of
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 19, 2009
                                            Thanks for your reply - i'll check out your first recommendation. The
                                            others i've read but they're more talking about rather than detailed
                                            descriptions of actual practice - at least from a uk perspective.
                                            Cheers, david

                                            On 11/19/09, Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...> wrote:
                                            > Tree Crops by Russell Smith - looks like google books has the full text and
                                            > there are other places you can get it as well...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > And most forest gardening books would have a section on nut trees as well
                                            > eg. Edible Forest Gardens, How to Make a Forest Garden etc
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Cheers, Linda
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                            > [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of david.keltie@...
                                            > Sent: Wednesday, 18 November 2009 8:20 PM
                                            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Paddy harvesting - Natural style
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > You replace grains in your diet entirely/partly with nuts? Tell me
                                            > more. Where are you? Climate/soil? What varieties do you grow? What
                                            > yields do you get? How do use your crop?
                                            >
                                            > The UK's natural state is forest - IMHO we need to learn more about
                                            > agroforestry and move more to a diet based on fruit & nuts than grain
                                            > and annual vegetables (that was Robert Hart's view in 'Forest
                                            > Gardening' but I'm only now beginning to realise the implications of
                                            > his practice).
                                            >
                                            > However, I'm woefully ignorant about nuts as a serious crop in
                                            > small-scale systems. We have many hazelnuts here, a lot of sweet
                                            > chestnuts (but with tiny nuts outside the South East of England),
                                            > walnuts do reasonably well, don't know about almonds, pecans. Plenty
                                            > of acorns and beech mast but don't seem to be used much for food other
                                            > than indirectly (pigs were traditionally grazed in the Autumn among
                                            > oak/beech trees). There are some enthusiasts here for monkey puzzle
                                            > tree pine nuts as a crop, but the very size of the tree may make it
                                            > difficult to factor into small-scale systems....
                                            >
                                            > Anyone else know about nuts? Any reading to recommend?
                                            >
                                            > Many thanks, David
                                            >
                                            > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:56 PM, alansloan@...
                                            > <mailto:alansloan%40tiscali.co.uk>
                                            > <alansloan@... <mailto:alansloan%40tiscali.co.uk> > wrote:
                                            >> If you are content to harvest nuts, as I am, you need neither scythe,
                                            > sickle nor cycle powered combine, just a strategy to deal with
                                            >> squirrels.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

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