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11239Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts (short reply)

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  • Jason Stewart
    Dec 4 8:06 PM
      Dear all, and Norm,

      In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural people", Norm you
      are depressingly–falsely 'tarring' original "natural people" with the tar-brush
      of obviously–the–extreme–of–world–history examples of, my ancestors, greedy,
      land–grabbing–stealing, destructive (to nature and self=all nature), invading,
      grossly unsustainable, child–enslaving & African–enslaving–trading, historical
      Western European & Middle Eastern peoples (as i wrote as the extreme example
      peoples – often distinct as people speaking languages of the Indo-European
      language family and the inventors of the only *extremely–expansionary* forms of
      unsustainable agriculture)

      One key scholarly reference example:
      Harris, D. (2002). The expansion capacity of early agricultural systems: a
      comparative perspective on the spread of agriculture.In P. Bellwood and C.
      Renfrew eds,Examining the Farming/Language Dispersal Hypothesis, pp. 31–40.
      Cambridge: McDonald Institute for Archaeological


      In the sense of late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's "natural faming" "natural
      people", Norm you are passing on lies by your writing "the Aborigines didn't
      have any form of agriculture".

      Scholarly References (i have and have read all these papers, and can supply them
      if really needed):
      Convincing Ground: Learning to Fall in love with your country


      Bruce PASCOE
      Availability: Print
      Electronic Book Format: www.ebooks.com
      April 2007, pb, 234x153mm, 304pp, b/w illus
      RRP $39.95 incl. GST
      ISBN 9780855755492
      | Contents | Sample Chapter | Index | Reviews |

      -> http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/asp/aspbooks/convground.html

      * Gammage, Bill 2003. Australia Under Aboriginal Management, 15th Barry Andrews
      Memorial Lecture,
      2002, Canberra: University College, University of NSW, Australian Defence Force

      * Denham, T.P. 2008. Traditional forms of plant exploitation in Australia and
      New Guinea: the search for common ground. Vegetation History and
      Archaeobotany 17: 245-8.
      -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_TraditionalForms.pdf
      -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/projects/wgp/TDenham_Project.html

      * Gammage, Bill (2005), " '...far more happier than we Europeans': Aborigines
      and farmers" (PDF), London Papers in Australian Studies (formerly Working Papers
      in Australian Studies) (London: Menzies Centre for Australian Studies. King's
      College. Each year the Centre publishes London Papers in Australian Studies .
      These are representative of some of the most recent and exciting intellectual
      work in Australian Studies.) (12): 1–27, ISSN 1746-1774, retrieved 2010-11-23
      -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/content/1/c6/01/27/52/LPAS12BillGammage1.pdf
      -> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/schools/humanities/depts/menzies/research/pubs/lp

      * Gammage, Bill 1986. Narrandera Shire Narrandera: Bill Gammage for the
      Narrandera Shire Council.

      * Denham, T., Donohue, M., & Booth, S. Horticultural experimentation in northern
      Australia reconsidered. Antiquity No. 83
      -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/Denham_etal_2009_Antiquity.pdf

      * Gerritsen, R (2008). Australia and the origins of agricultureArchaeopress -
      British Archaeological Reports Ltd

      * Denham, T.P. and S. Mooney (2008). Human-environment interactions in Australia
      and New Guinea during the Holocene. The Holocene 18(3): 373-9.

      * Gott, Beth (1983) Murnong–Microseris scapigera: a study of a staple food of
      Victorian Aborigines - Australian Aboriginal Studies

      * Gott, Beth (1992) Koorie Plants, Koorie People: Traditional Aboriginal Food,
      Fibre and Healing Plants of Victoria - Koorie Heritage Trust, Victoria,

      * Gott, Beth (2005) Aboriginal fire management in south‐eastern Australia: aims
      and frequency - Journal of Biogeography, Wiley

      * Gammage, Bill (2008) Plain facts: Tasmania under aboriginal management -
      Landscape Research - Routledge
      -> http://westinstenv.org/wp-content/Gammagetasaborigsfires.pdf

      * Gerritsen, R (2010). 'Evidence for indigenous Australian
      agriculture',Australasian Science, vol. 31, no. 6, pp. 35-37.
      -> http://www.australasianscience.com.au/article/issue-july-august-2010/evidence-indigenous-australian-agriculture.html

      * Denham, T.P. 2007. Early agriculture: recent conceptual and methodological
      developments. In T.P. Denham and P. White, eds, The emergence of agriculture: a
      global view, pp. 1-25. London: Routledge.

      * Denham, T.P. and J.P. White (eds.) (2007). The emergence of agriculture: a
      global view One World Archaeology Reader, London: Routledge.

      *Denham, T.P. J. Atchison, J. Austin, S. Bestel, D. Bowdery, A. Crowther, N.
      Dolby, A. Fairbairn, J. Field, A. Kennedy, C. Lentfer, C. Matheson, S. Nugent,
      J. Parr, M. Prebble, G. Robertson, J. Specht, R. Torrence, H. Barton, R.
      Fullagar, S. Haberle, M. Horrocks, T. Lewis and P. Matthews (2009).
      Archaeobotany in Australia and New Guinea: practice, potential and
      prospects. Australian Archaeology (accepted December 2008).
      -> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/efn/publications/denham_etal_2009.pdf

      * Denham, T.P., R. Fullagar and L. Head In press. Plant exploitation on Sahul:
      from colonisation to the emergence of regional specialisation during the
      Holocene. Quaternary International (accepted March 2008).

      * Gott, Beth (2008) Indigenous use of plants in south-eastern
      Australia - Telopea - rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au

      Many more contemporary papers by Gott, Beth; Bill Gammage; Chase; Hynes & Chase;
      Much more literature by early European Australians.

      * Beth Gott is an elder ethno-botanist from Monash University, Melbourne; was my
      University lecturer there in 1990; and i continue to correspond with at times.
      * Tim Denham is a scholar from Monash University, Melbourne
      * Rupert Gerritsen is a self-funded scholar from here in Canberra attached to
      the National Library of Australia, A Petherick reader; who i've met &
      corresponded with a few times about all of this subject material


      Do not get out your apparently triumphalist–Euro-centric–knives (please),
      whether you know you are doing so or not,
      to stab–in–the–back people in this sub–continent, who get called Aborigines.
      It amazes me how you who obviously–evidently are way out of your depth of
      detailed knowledge of this subject shoot your mouth of with unreferenced and
      often unbalanced opinions, while the most scholarly people i personally know of
      this subject, actively choose to say very circumspect statements about these
      ancient, or 200 years ago history, or today continuing but severely dispossed,
      Not really reading, listening, to what i've written about this subject here for
      up to 8 years and longer elsewhere, and to the extensively documented history of
      this subject; I'm really tired of that, of you–kind–of–Ozzies, Norm & Peter, and
      previously Adam & so on, not really reading, listening and so on to so many
      saying this for so many years, on this subject—thousands of years of sustainable
      nature farming in this continent, in the sense of the definition of late Mr.
      Fukuoka Masanobu sensei.

      It's great you've been to travelling in India. I want to hear a lot more stories
      about that please.
      But it is not necessary for this subject, learning this subject, to travel to
      The longest continuing nature farming traditions (in the sense of late Mr.
      Fukuoka Masanobu sensei's definition by his principles) in our Earth, and still
      continuing in some places in NSW, Australia, not so far from you Norm, like for
      example with the Scuthorpe's family in N.W. NSW.
      It's right before your eyes in the native Oz flora (& fauna) only waiting for
      you to see and hear and smell and touch and 'aware' it AND EAT it!

      Book Reference:

      "Bush foods of New South Wales"

      by Kathy Stewart & Bob Percival
      (Royal Botanic Gardens, Sydney 1997).

      -29 pages - many great photos - many great drawings-

      -> http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/85542/Bushfoodsbook.pdf

      Freeeeee!!! - I've paid money to buy many copies of it for friends over the

      An analogy reference:
      "ON A GREEN MOUNTAIN - With Masanobu Fukuoka Sensei of Natural Farming
      -Copyright (c) 1995 Jim Bones"
      -> http://web.archive.org/web/20060413224615/www.seedballs.com/gmmfpa.html


      In order now is, from
      Historian, Teacher, Award winning writer of numerous book, short stories, poems
      et. al., Editor, etc,
      a truthful writing quote, for which plenty of scholarly and historical
      documentation occurs in the public record and often by famous historical figures
      like Mitchell, Sturt, etc.:
      -> http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5858
      Australians in denial ...
      By Bruce Pascoe - posted Monday, 21 May 2007

      Australia is a baby. An innocent baby, gurgling with good humour and wonder.
      We've pulled the paper bag over our head and believe no-one can see us.

      There we are, in the middle of the floor with a bag over our head. We refuse to
      look back at our past and hope that with no effort on our part the future will
      look after itself.

      We live in a country with an incredible history but pretend it began in 1788.
      The ancient past was not written so therefore it doesn't exist. The Aborigines
      are primitive hunter gatherers who are migrants to the country just like us, so
      really they had no more right to the land than we did. And we're better at it.

      Oh, baby, pull off the bag, examine your land.

      It is on the public record that Aboriginal people were not feckless and innocent
      nomads but constructed complex housing; harvested grain, yams, eels, fish and
      other produce with sophisticated feats of engineering; and created the first and
      most enduring art, music and language in the world.

      The social organisation looks amazingly like the first democracy, the first
      modern state where art and dance were devoted more time than the procurement of

      We live in an incredible place but refuse to believe its history.

      The eel aquaculture of the Western District of Victoria covers thousands of
      hectares and involves hundreds of kilometres of stone walls, weirs and tunnels
      burrowed through solid rock. The houses for these fishermen were set out in
      large villages and some of them could accommodate 20 or more people. They are
      like small town halls.

      Grain was harvested in Queensland and from other grasslands: the fields of over
      1,000 acres were carefully managed to maintain productivity. Settlers found this
      grain stored in stone silos and intricately sewn, vermin proof skin bags. Often
      the stored grain weighed over one tonne.

      This is all on the public record in the first hand reports of Europeans. So why
      do we maintain the myth of a crude civilisation meandering hopelessly across the
      continent? Because we have to? Because to admit anything else defies our
      perception of ownership and legitimacy, our own perception of how we took the

      We need to understand that there was a war in this country and the Indigenes
      lost it but not before conducting battles which forced the Europeans back on
      many fronts in the campaign. Aboriginal people did not just go away, disappear,
      die out from exotic diseases - they were defeated in war. That war is on the
      public record. The word “war” was used by our first governors and magistrates:
      it is there for any Australian to read.

      Of course it was unlike any other war we are familiar with because Aboriginal
      people had lived within nation boundaries which remained the same over
      thousands, probably tens of thousands, of years - their languages tell us this
      because of the reference to ancient climatic and geological events. This country
      is unique but we can't bring ourselves to admit it because we have to believe
      the Indigenes walked away from it, left the field in awe of the marvellous

      I implore young Australians to undertake a scrutiny of the available material
      and begin a negotiation with Aboriginal Australia, not about money but about our
      shared history, our shared future and in celebration of this land we love, the
      land we toast with cups of tea and Indigenous wine and beer

      We love our country but have pulled the bag over our head pretending the world
      can't see how we arrived

      Young Australians please read your history, don't believe your elders' version
      of events, most have got their head in a bag. You are young, intelligent,
      hopeful, you have the rest of your lives ahead of you. Enjoy it, learn that you
      live in a fabulous place where a civilisation developed which may yet teach us
      crucial lessons about sustainability and civilised behaviour.

      To understand our history is not an act of grand generosity but a bloody-minded
      necessity. The alternative is to live with a bag over your head ... and baby,
      it's dark in there.

      Enough evidence said???

      Biggest best wishes,

      SE Oz.

      From: greenie6666 <normbeee@...>
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 10:14:57
      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Eucalypts

      Dear Friends:
      I have been wanting to write for some time, especially to our good friends in
      India, to just give a bit of warning to them, about our Australian Eucalyptus &
      Casuarinas. I'm an Australian & I spent one year in 2003/4 living in India &
      recently had another short visit in June this year & plan another trip at the
      end of February, I have gained a strong love of India & it's people & am very
      impressed with some of the guys ideas & thoughts on life & the earths problems
      we discuss here.
      Then there was Anant's article on planting Eucalypt & Linda's & Jason's follow
      ups. I have known for a long time of other countries plantings of Eucalypt &
      read of some of the problems associated with these plantings. Being Australian I
      have grown up with a strong love of Eucalypts, but since moving to a larger farm
      18 hectares [46 acres] 27 years ago I have become worried about some of their
      abilities, they are an incredible plant & for reforestation on difficult grown,
      they probably would be one of the best because of their ability to extract
      nutrients from the hardest of soils & in some places they certainly have a
      place, because certainly a Eucalypt is better than no tree at all. When I first
      started here with ideas of natural farming, I left my Eucalypts & inter planted
      then with other trees, fruit & nuts etc, but when the first drought hit this
      area, which is almost sub tropical, I noticed how they coped with it, first they
      extracted all available moisture from the soil to the detriment of other plants,
      then they had a massive leaf drop, which covered the ground with a mulch of
      their leaves, which I guess is a good thing for the earth, but their leaves
      retard the growth of other species & even prevent most grasses from growing. The
      smooth bark varieties also shed their bark & we think plants can't plan or
      think, but it looked like they were to me planning the next fire, which most
      Eucalypts & Casuarinas have evolved to withstand. If they don't get a regular
      fire, other species may take over, it is their ability to survive fire that has
      made them the dominant species.
      Unlike most Australians I had the idea that the best way to prevent our almost
      annual bushfires, was to improve the soil fertility & grow species that are less
      flammable. So I had started planting rainforest species here, which I felt grew
      more here in the past, than at the present day, but had been killed out, because
      mainly from the frequency of burn off's that are mostly been used as a fire
      prevention, which in my idea was creating the conditions for the next fire, as
      mainly only plants that can survive a burn end up becoming the main vegetation
      in such an area. I had kept fires out of my property for about 20 years, but one
      year there was a fire in the area & the bushfire brigade, which I was a member
      of, wanted to do a back burn to prevent spread of this fire, we started the burn
      at 1am in the morning & even with this really cool burn most of my rainforest
      species were scorched & died.
      Here in Australia after just over 200 years of occupation of Europeans, some of
      us are beginning to see the damage we have done in this time & are now saying
      that we should look at how the original Aborigines managed the land, the
      Aborigines didn't have any form of agriculture, but it is said they used to
      manage the land by cool burns early in the dry season. As Jason mentions it is
      said that Australia has become so arid because of the continents move over time
      into a part of the earth which is drier, but as Fukuoka says he believes that
      deserts are caused from the ground up & I think he's right, maybe we have moved
      into a drier zone, but if over something like 60,000 to 40,000 years the people
      inhabiting this land have been practicing burn offs, I'm pretty sure this has
      had an effect on the land, vegetation, fertility of the soils. To me it's logic
      if you burn up the efforts of nature each year instead of letting it decompose
      back into the earth, which is natures way, it will become denuded. I think with
      us being human we can't help but interfere with natures natural process, we are
      supposed to be intelligent beings, but I guess that depends on what idea we
      consider as being intelligent & if we decided that something is intelligent for
      what the person sees as his desire in the present, but is not in the good of
      natural processes, maybe it can't be called intelligent.
      When I visited Sensei at his home in Japan in 1984 he did one of his famous
      paintings for me & my Japanese wife interpreted his explanation of it, he said
      as we create a problem with our technologies, we think the smart thing is to
      solve it with another technology & he said with each technology we bury
      ourselves deeper & deeper.
      The warning I want to give to people in India is, I had seen plantings of
      Eucalypts & Casuarinas & noticed in some areas what appeared to be areas of
      these plants that appear to be spreading by natural seeding & it just worries me
      that if these plants are allowed to spread into your environments, in the future
      in your dry season you may begin to experience wild fires [bush fires] similar
      to what we experience here in Australia & which just a few year ago killed more
      than 200 people. Maybe because of how people use resources, it may not come to
      that state, but it's something you should be aware of. I think in lots of cases
      these trees are used for firewood or in other ways that maybe they don't reach
      maturity, so the problem may not be the same as here.

      Also I would like to make some comment on leguminous plants used in tropical
      areas such as in India. Fukuoka used White Clover which I don't think grows well
      in tropical areas & I haven't seen a similar plant that could be used in India,
      as most of the legumes I have seen & know in tropical places seem to be large
      bean like plants similar to "Pueraria Javanica" mentioned by Vishu, which might
      be ok with his coffee plants, but still I think would have to be watched in the
      early stages as they are so vigorous & rampant that they could over come them
      before they got large enough. In June I visited a natural farm in Auroville, in
      the area that they grew rice & millet, they were growing a large bean type
      legume & also some weeds that were said to be beneficial & I wasn't there to see
      the rice or millet planted, but such plants would not be able to be just cut &
      have the rice or millet sown into them, as before the grain would have a chance
      to get away they would be smothered. It seems that each plant would have to be
      removed by pulling out to give the grain crop a chance to get away, granted
      these plants would supply large amounts of humus & nitrogen, but their
      management would seem to be a big problem in natural farming. Are there other
      plants that are used that could be controlled easier in a similar way to
      Fukuoka's clover. Mr. Raju Titus's plant Subabul [Leucaena Luecocephla] is a
      shrub like plant that would I guess, have to be cut & used as
      mulch...regards...Norm...from Oz [Australia].

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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