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My Name is Terri, Carolyn's Mom--using Lynn's access

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  • lynnredcat10
    Hello Fruitarians, My name is Terri and Im Carolyn s mom. I wanted to say thank you to those of you who stepped forth and supported us in our time of need and
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 13, 2002
      Hello Fruitarians,
      My name is Terri and Im Carolyn's mom. I wanted to say thank
      you to those of you who stepped forth and supported us in our time of
      need and grieving. The funeral was beautiful. Lynn and his family
      is staying with us for the week and we have been discussing the
      situation that has happened. Since my daughter's demise, I have been
      reading up on all the threads and I want to say some things.

      Carolyn was not the perfect girl, I know this. But she was my
      daughter and I loved her dearly. She had tried to become fruitarian
      four times before all of this happened and each time she tried, she
      eneded up really underweight and sick. She has always been under the
      care of a nutritionist because Carolyn has a hyper-metabolism and
      almost has to eat her weight in nutrients and food just to maintain
      her weight.

      She had to have more nutrients that most people. She had to eat
      up to six times a day, 300-400 calories per meal. She was told by
      her nutritionist not to go fruitarian because of this. Each time she
      tried she got very skinny and ill. She really listened to this
      Southladogs because the woman had many years as a fruitarian. The
      decisions Carolyn made were ultimately hers but she trusted this
      woman fully and believed she could follow the same path.

      Southladogs, I dont hold you entirely responsible for this,
      however, I do think that with all of your knowledge and experience in
      the field of nutrition and physiology you should know that what may
      work for one person may not work for another and that each of us have
      to adjust accordingly. I just wish you could have come forth and
      said you could have been wrong about your decisions instead of
      pressing the issue and shrugging your shoulders like you didnt know
      what was going on. Most of the stuff I have read that you have
      posted recently has come from Dr. Banarr. Well even Dr. Banarr
      believes in resistance training and greens.

      You dont. You dont even eat greens anymore and you dont do any
      kind of resistance training, you only do yoga. So in reality, even
      you dont follow Dr. Banarrs total advice. It really hurts me that my
      daughter chose to follow your advice. But because you have so many
      years in the field, she trusted you completely. She did so blindly
      and this is the way it ended. I feel sorry for you that you cannot
      allow any room for other's beliefs.

      It's almost as though you take it personally if someone doesnt
      follow you explicitely and without question, like its of some
      personal endeavor and hurts you if they go their own way and do thier
      own thing. That is what learning is all about. You dont even follow
      the advice of the man who CREATED fruitarianism. You instead, have
      created your own kind. And you get angry and steaming if everyone
      doesnt follow you. On top of it, you launch into these thousand mile
      lectures over and over. It's as though nothing really comes from the
      heart.

      Again, I just wish you could be decent enough to admit you were
      wrong. Ease my heart, ease the pain and just admit that you dont
      know it all and that you do screw up and that you arent the authority
      on all that exists in fruitarianism. That is all I ask. Show the
      character and decency as a human that you profess, be real, stop
      showing everyone what you want them to see and just admit you arent
      perfect either and that you made a mistake. We can forgive. Forget
      no, but forgive yes. You are human, what's wrong with that? What's
      wrong with admitting you screw up too?

      I dont think Im asking much here. The only other thing I ask is
      that you dont mislead others and you dont hold everyone to absolutes,
      that there are no margins for error, that the people on this group
      can be themselves and that this has been a lesson that everyone can
      learn from. Please just allow people to mess up and if they eat
      veggies or greens please dont berate them and make them feel guilty.
      Because I dont really believe that you live only on fruits and nuts
      either. I honestly believe it is an image you present for others to
      see so they will think you are perfect, perfectly disciplined and
      utterly grand.

      I read in one of your posts that you "Have no deficiencies."
      That is a bold statement. I have deficiencies. Im not good in math,
      I am not the best driver on the road, I dont always pay my bills on
      time, I trip and fall now and then, Im not always good at calling
      people back, and the list goes on. I do have deficiencies. Until
      you admit that you too have FAULTS (another word for deficincies),
      then you place yourself as a god to others, an unfaltering leader who
      can do no wrong and until you learn that you are no better than
      anyone else, then you will be a lonley, miserable person that no one
      can really relate to. And those that do relate to you will only do
      so to prevent the wrath you will pour out if they do not cornform.

      Everyone, I have deficiencies, I have faults, I make mistakes
      and so does Lynn and everyone else on here. I was very happy to read
      that most everyone came forth and admitted it, except Southladogs. I
      just wish she could...thank you to the rest of you for your continued
      support....
      Sincerely,
      Terri
    • Werner
      Hi Terri, I just wanted to let you know that I used to be a raw foodist and a fruitarian. And it didn t work for me either. Last year, I was down to 113 lbs.
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 13, 2002
         
        Hi Terri,
        I just wanted to let you know that I used to be a raw foodist and a fruitarian.  And it didn't work for me either.  Last year, I was down to 113 lbs. (5'6") and I was so weak that I could hardly do my job at the factory.  The turning point was that when I was still 100% raw this spring, I got a bad case of the shingles.  That's when I started to eat steamed veggies and a very large variety at that.  I eat only fruits and steamed veggies now and my weight is at a comfortable 140 lbs.  And my health and strength are slowly returning.  Even this summer, I could hardly run my five mile course.  Now I can do it again and I'm feeling better and stronger each day.  So I agree with you ... what works for one ... may not work for another.  I would not ask anyone to eat only fruits and veggies as I do.  This works for me ... maybe not for all. 
        When asked, I will advise others to eat more fruits and veggies, but not exclusively.  Thank God, I had enough sense to realize that fruitarianism didn't work for me ... before it killed me.
        In health ... Werner.
        Fruits and Veggies forever.
         
         
        Hello Fruitarians,
             My name is Terri and Im Carolyn's mom.  I wanted to say thank 


             She had to have more nutrients that most people.  She had to eat
        up to six times a day, 300-400 calories per meal.  She was told by
        her nutritionist not to go fruitarian because of this.  Each time she
        tried she got very skinny and ill.  

         
      • falcon magick
        dear Terri lynnredcat10 <lynnredcat10@yahoo.com> wrote: i am really sorry for what happened .all my positive and good energies i send to you and Lynn s
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 14, 2002

          dear Terri

            lynnredcat10 &lt;lynnredcat10@...&gt; wrote:

          i am really sorry for what happened .all my positive and good energies i send to you and Lynn's Spirit.she was an old soul it seems and realised that fruitarianism is the ultimate goal but here i will admit that yes everyone is different and things should have beed approached cautiously and with good logic.it is important that we understand the individuality and differences of anothers body

          and yes i got lots of deficiencies too i am not perfect no one is  we are all evolving

          blessed be,Lillith:)

           

           

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        • falcon magick
          A sudden and radical change in diet should be approached very cautiously while keeping in mind the fact that some can adjust to a new diet very quickly or
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 14, 2002

             A sudden and radical change in diet should be approached very cautiously while keeping in mind the fact that some can adjust to a new diet very quickly or instantly while some may take a very long time.most fruits and fruity products are also maily carbs which can be harmful to the kidey and otherorgans in he long run if taken excessively and mostly.tomatoes cucumbers and other non fructose fruits are important alsogreen sprouts and nuts.

            speaking of greens i am not completely fruitarian myself i take some boiled greens like brocolli everyday.my whole family has followed me to vegetarianism and veganism after that and my sister is interested in fruitarianism.i wouldnt dream of guilting her if she has to adjust her body slowly.the key is in giving your body time to adjust by cutting the carby veggies at first but continuing the greens like brocolli(which is a very good veggy)for a long time cutting the amount of intake slowly when you SENSE AND FEEL WITH YOUR MIND AND BODY that its the time,while increasing he amount of fruit intake.

            and yes dont listen to the advice or sugestions of just one fruitarian.listen to lots of fruitarians and their experiences and dont feel guilty of eating greens just because someone has a 'more fruitarian than thou' attitude

            Lillith

             

             

             

             

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          • IINPortOrchard@webtv.net
            Hi Lillith,That sounds like good advice. I find that when a person gets enthusiastic tries to change all at once of course the body rebels, and before you know
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 14, 2002
              Hi Lillith,That sounds like good advice. I find that when a person gets
              enthusiastic tries to change all at once of course the body rebels, and
              before you know it they are eating the foods they are tying to give up
              and feeling like a failure. The gradual approach works much better.
              Judy
            • IINPortOrchard@webtv.net
              I also send my condolences to Carolyns family and loved ones. It is awfully hard to lose a child like that no matter how old they are. I am a mom of 5 grown
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 14, 2002
                I also send my condolences to Carolyns family and loved ones. It is
                awfully hard to lose a child like that no matter how old they are. I am
                a mom of 5 grown children myself so I know what I'm talking about. May
                God send his peace to you and yours. Judy
              • southladogs
                Terri and all, I am responding here to your post, Terri, but also in part to some of the other posts recently on the fruitarian list. Fasting is not dangerous,
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 17, 2002
                  Terri and all,

                  I am responding here to your post, Terri, but also in part to some of
                  the other posts recently on the fruitarian list.

                  Fasting is not dangerous, and does not kill. Fasting is the oldest
                  and the only healing modality in Nature. Animals all fast when ill,
                  and do nothing else, the body heals itself. Of course, in life, some
                  sudden great injury or poisoning can happen to people which are so
                  overwhelming to the body, from which they cannot recover. In those
                  cases, the body does its best.

                  But when the body institutes an acute inflammation in the normal
                  course of things, it is specifically for healing and cleansing,
                  generally the toxins one has stored, and one needs to fast in order
                  that the body can do its work. That is true, and that is what I have
                  posted. It is not dangerous in any way.

                  What is dangerous is to feed the body when it is ill, and to continue
                  normal activity, and to be given or take drugs or herbs or anything
                  else to suppress symptoms, or be given medical procedures to suppress
                  symptoms. Drugs, IV's, surgeries, are dangerous assaults to the body,
                  as are all poisons and injuries.

                  Yet I did not tell Carolyn to fast! I told her to contact Dr.
                  Bernarr. He has posted on other boards in one of his articles that he
                  has helped over 100,000 people to heal. I have met people who have
                  been helped by him.

                  I have done numerous short fasts when my body demanded it. And I did
                  a long fast, 27 days--I fasted "to completion" as Herbert Shelton
                  described, and I followed, in addition the principles that Dr.
                  Bernarr describes. I fasted on my own, but then I take full
                  responsibility for my own health.

                  But I never recommend that anyone go on a fast of more than a very
                  few days on their own, since people need to know all the info on
                  fasting, and most people have not learned it. Even if they did learn
                  it, it would be irresponsible of me to suggest to people that they go
                  and fast on their own.

                  Hygiene always recommends that if someone has a health condition, to
                  seek out the guidance of a competent, qualified health practitioner.
                  I consider Dr. Bernarr to be the most knowledgeable and qualified.

                  All I did was to refer Carolyn to Dr. Bernarr! I urged her to contact
                  him! I did not give any medical advice. I said I hoped that Carolyn
                  would opt to not have surgery--that was an opinion, not advice. I
                  consider surgery and hospital procedures to be very harmful, and I
                  felt it my duty to express that opinion. To contact Dr. Bernarr, that
                  was my advice, my only advice!

                  I did not tell Carolyn to go and fast on her own! I guess I should
                  have put in a big caveat in big bold letters saying "do not fast on
                  your own", but I did not think it necessary. Even if someone fasts on
                  their own, it is not harmful. And it is the opportunity for the body
                  to heal if they are doing it correctly. That is the reason, the only
                  reason, that the body institutes a state of inflammation, or other
                  illness.

                  I have had several inflammations, as my body cleaned out so many of
                  its parts, and always fasted during them. And after my long fast,
                  around 9 years ago, my nutritional "deficiencies" went away, were
                  corrected by my fast--I had had long term iron deficiency anemia
                  which I knew of, and perhaps other undiagnosed deficiencies, yet
                  after my long fast I had my blood tested and my erythrocytes and
                  hemoglobin count went out the top, just as Shelton describes in his
                  books on fasting, and I have not been anemic since.

                  But of course I realize that appendicitis is a very acute condition,
                  and I would especially not want to see someone fast on their own in
                  that event. Fasting is only helpful, not harmful, but if people do
                  things other than correct fasting, there is no telling what can
                  happen. That is why it is imperative that someone contact a competent
                  practitioner to supervise the fast.

                  I at first found Dr. Bernarr's practice of fasting people via
                  telephone and internet a bit odd, just as I found most of his ideas
                  when I first heard them, but I have come to see the wisdom in them,
                  one by one. Most health retreats where people are supervised on site
                  are prohibitively expensive, and those practitioners draw blood each
                  day, which I consider invasive and enervating in addition to
                  unnecessary, and fast people for a maximum of two weeks, regardless
                  of what the body needs, and do not have them rest or sleep, perhaps
                  not even get any sun. I don't consider those to be very helpful. The
                  most important part of fasting is the complete rest, sleeping as much
                  as possible. I believe Dr. Bernarr is most effective in helping
                  people, as he understands the principles of health.

                  So there are mistakes that people can make which are attributed to
                  fasting by those who fear and oppose fasting, but are not in
                  actuality a result of fasting, It is possible for someone to do
                  themselves great harm for example by breaking the fast incorrectly.
                  If one has been fasting, especially for any length of time, to
                  suddenly put a hamburger into their body, or IV's put into the person
                  in a hospital, or drugs or surgery, would be such a great shock to a
                  body whose metabolism is so totally at rest, that it can literally
                  kill them quickly. In addition to the fact that if a person's body is
                  not finished with the healing, to tax it further with either food or
                  with medical procedures can be very harmful. This is in addition to
                  the fact that the inimical practices done by medicine in themselves
                  are harmful, IMO.

                  Many people, including famous Hygienists such as Shelton and Fry,
                  have followed medical protocols instead of Hygiene and/or gone to
                  hospitals after not following the principles that they brilliantly
                  educated others to do. As a result, they did not survive the medical
                  procedures and died. Of course, it's not news when people die at the
                  hands of medics, it happens every day. I have known countless people
                  who died on the operating table, or soon after surgery, as well as
                  never leaving the hospital alive even without surgery, whatever
                  substances or procedures they were given.

                  Isn't it interesting that when someone is sick or injured, and they
                  get no conventional medical intervention, they are told that it is
                  only due to luck that they survived the illness or injury without it.
                  And if they do get conventional medical intervention, and they
                  survive the medical intervention plus the sickness or injury, they
                  are told that the medical intervention saved them!

                  And if they are sick or injured and get conventional medical
                  intervention, and they don't survive, people are taught to think that
                  they died despite the valiant and heroic efforts of the medical
                  intervention to save them. And if they get sick or injured and do not
                  get conventional medical intervention, and do not survive, then
                  people are taught to think that the reason they did not survive is
                  because they did not get conventional medical intervention, and that
                  the non-conventional protocol killed them.

                  And if they did not get conventional medical intervention at first,
                  but instead do a different protocol, and then later they get
                  conventional medical intervention and then die, it is always the lack
                  of conventional intervention "in time" that is blamed for the death,
                  and the discipline that was followed instead that is blamed, it is
                  never the conventional medical intervention later followed that is
                  blamed for the death!

                  I believe that until and unless we find out exactly what happened
                  with Carolyn, all that is known of what she did and what was done to
                  her, we will not know the cause of her death. It does not help to say
                  that I or anything I wrote caused her death, and assume that is true.
                  To blame fasting, or Hygiene, is based on assumption, not on facts.
                  To get the facts, we need to find out what happened, all that
                  happened.

                  It has often happened also that people will fast, even if they fast
                  at a retreat under lock and key, that once they are discharged, they
                  are taken to a hospital and then they die in the hospital, yet it is
                  not the hospital, and the invasive procedures that are done there
                  that is held responsible for the death, but instead the fasting
                  institution where the patient was prior to the hospital, and fasting
                  is denounced and blamed for the death.

                  Throughout history, many people when ill have also gone into states
                  in which the body forces absolute rest upon the body, such as
                  dizziness, fainting, and even coma. People can think the person is
                  dead or dying. That is why people are now buried in locked caskets,
                  six feet under ground--because in the past too many people were able
                  to open their caskets and crawl out!

                  When one is in a state of coma or other state of deep rest, what
                  would a hospital do? Try to bring them out of it. Yet that is the
                  most harmful thing to do. I once made that mistake with one of my
                  beloved dogs. He fell into a coma, and was holding his own. I took
                  him to an emergency vet hospital and within a very few minutes of
                  their beginning to work on him, he died. Actually, he was not yet
                  dead, as they "brought him back", and I should have been smart enough
                  to take him home at that point, but instead I trusted their protocol
                  and kept him in the vet hospital, even transferring him across town
                  to a specialist at another vet hospital, at the first hospital's
                  recommendation. Poor Bruno died a couple of days later, drugged and
                  hooked to tubes, they tried for a half hour to revive him. It turned
                  out he had a brain inflammation, which his body was in deep rest to
                  heal with, and I am sure that if I'd left him alone, kept him at home
                  and allowed to just rest, he would have healed just fine.

                  If someone is fasting, and they are in deep rest and their body is
                  totally at work on a very acute condition, the worst thing to do is
                  to take them to a hospital. It is of course the thing that people do,
                  out of a motivation to try to save them, but it can kill them. Not
                  just if the person has been fasting, but of course including that
                  event as well.

                  Lynn told us that Carolyn was taken to the hospital at some point. We
                  don't have the details of what was done to her, or what she was
                  given, nor what happened before or after that point. We just don't
                  know what happened. And we don't know what Carolyn did before going
                  to the hospital.

                  But if we can find out what happened, I suspect that what caused her
                  death may have been something that Carolyn did, if anything, other
                  than fasting, and more importantly, something that was done to her,
                  or given to her. We do not at this point have anything more than a
                  few statements from Lynn about what he felt happened, not clear, and
                  not sequential. We don't really know all that happened, and I think
                  it would take Lynn's recounting of all the events to find out,
                  something he is probably not able to do at this time, in order to get
                  a better idea as to what may have actually caused Carolyn's death.

                  I always accept responsibility for anything that I have done wrong. I
                  so deeply regret that I did not try to contact Lynn to find out how
                  Carolyn was doing, perhaps I could have urged them again to contact
                  Dr. Bernarr. I assumed that Carolyn and Lynn would have contacted Dr.
                  Bernarr as I urged, or else Lynn would have insisted on taking
                  Carolyn to the hospital, and I did not want to disturb them in
                  whatever course they chose. Lynn has several times contacted the list
                  about Carolyn, and seemed to always do so whenever he was worried
                  that something was wrong, and I assumed that either he or Carolyn
                  would immediately contact the list if that were the case.

                  The fruitarian list has generally been a quiet place, with infrequent
                  postings, and Carolyn and Lynn did not post for months at a time.
                  When Carolyn posted that she was eating only fruit, which I have
                  never advised anyone to do, and that she was very skinny, I
                  immediately posted, urging her to eat greens, and nuts, and seeds, in
                  addition to fruit, plentifully, a diet which has proved over a long
                  period and myriad people to be optimal for humans. Lynn posted
                  telling us that Carolyn then began eating all of that. In addition
                  Lynn posted that Carolyn was eating grains, plus other things.

                  The list did not hear from Carolyn again until she asked for advice
                  about her appendicitis, one post only. There was no reply from
                  Carolyn or Lynn to any of the responses, any of the suggestions
                  people made, nothing, so we had no way of knowing what course of
                  action Carolyn and Lynn chose at that time, nor subsequently, nor
                  anything that happened, no word until Lynn posted with the news of
                  Carolyn's death. Unfortunately, I thought that no news was good news,
                  and will always regret not posting on the list or trying to contact
                  Lynn via email to ask about Carolyn. Had I done so, although my only
                  advice was not followed, and I cannot control the actions of other
                  people, perhaps I could have again asked that Dr. Bernarr be
                  contacted, and helped to avert Carolyn's death.

                  What I have written about the fruitarian diet is true, though of
                  course people may disagree. Of course, people's needs and conditions
                  vary. I have never told people to eat only fruit, though I have said
                  I think it may be the ultimate diet, but that would be way in the
                  future if at all. When Lynn posted that Carolyn was eating only
                  fruit, I posted asking Carolyn to eat plenty of the components of
                  what Hygiene considers the ultimate diet: fruits, leafy vegetables,
                  nuts, and seeds. I have thrived on this diet for 12 years, and I know
                  folks who have done so even longer, among the many who are following
                  this fruitarian diet—fruitarian does not mean fruit only to most
                  people.

                  I don't know what is meant when someone posts about the man who
                  invented fruitarianism. Different people mean different things when
                  they speak of fruitarianism. Some people consider it is eating
                  exclusively anything that is or has a seed. So some people eat
                  grains, which are seeds, but they are not seeds which are edible in
                  their natural states, by humans. Using that definition, they may
                  include baked or sprouted grains in their diets. Hygiene teaches that
                  our natural fruitarian diet is fruits, leafy greens, nuts, and seeds,
                  raw and uncooked, unfrozen, unsprouted, in their natural state. There
                  are people who feel a fruitarian diet is fruit only. Many variations
                  and definitions of what a fruitarian diet is.

                  The fruitarian diet has been around for at least one million years,
                  fossil records confirm that 1 to 1.5 million years ago, humans ate
                  nothing but fruits and nuts. I believe that is our natural diet, what
                  we eat, along with some greens perhaps, when we are not in an ice
                  age, and have ample access to our natural, compatible foods. I know
                  of nothing else in Nature that is easily obtainable and edible and
                  appealing and compatible in our bodies. If we put into their bodies
                  anything other than these foods, IMO, we will run into real trouble
                  with our health somewhere down the line, yet people usually don't
                  know or acknowledge that that is the cause of their problems.

                  A word about the short fast that Carolyn did several months ago,
                  where I had her fast for 3 days: It was a much less serious
                  situation, and I monitored the situation. I had actually contacted
                  Lynn via the email he has posted on the list, and he sent me a
                  response, so I was in effect supervising that fast. I told her to
                  stop after 3 days as I didn't feel competent to continue her. When
                  Carolyn did not seem to feel better--I now realize she should have
                  continued to fast, but I was afraid to have her do so--and Lynn asked
                  what he should do, I agonized over it, but I told him to do what he
                  felt was right--I did not want to give any advice. I suggested that
                  he might want to take her to a doctor or hospital for a diagnosis,
                  though I suspected that to go to a hospital would mean that they
                  would immediately aggressively insist on doing surgery, as that is
                  their protocol. Had I thought to refer him to Dr. Bernarr, that would
                  have been my only advice.

                  Had I thought to refer him to Dr. Bernarr, and if he had contacted
                  Dr. Bernarr on Carolyn's behalf, I think things at that time may have
                  turned out very differently, and perhaps the whole course of events
                  also. That was a mistake on my part. I make tons of mistakes, all the
                  time! I do not claim to have no deficiencies, only no nutritional
                  deficiencies!

                  I am all too human. But I do understand more about nutrition and
                  health than most people, as a result of all that I have experienced
                  and learned. And I just want to share it with people, though
                  sometimes I admit my methods of communicating may not suit everyone's
                  tastes. I am working on it.

                  I am not the egotist that some people seem to think I am. I simply
                  state what I know, just as everyone else does. I have tried to do it
                  more and more diplomatically to try to mitigate people's upsets about
                  being introduced to information that is so different from, and what
                  conflicts with, what they are used to. I think that most of the
                  people who lash out at me are those who have some very specific
                  agenda and bias that conflicts with the info of Hygiene. I suspect
                  that they feel their ideas very threatened by the Hygienic info,
                  since Hygiene basically is a return to Nature, without any following
                  of the medical paradigm, including any alternative modalities which
                  seek to cure by using things people eat or take that are purportedly
                  natural but are used as medicines instead of food.

                  And I believe that pretty much all "alternative" modalities other
                  than Hygiene seem to in some way follow the medical paradigm--that of
                  curing, via some kind of substance or practice, in order to suppress
                  symptoms--treating symptoms, rather than leaving the body alone to do
                  its work. That is why Hygiene is so consistently attacked by so many,
                  and has always been throughout its 180 year history—because Hygiene
                  rejects the medical paradigm, which we are all taught from birth to
                  accept. As can be seen, those who believe in "alternative" medicine,
                  whether it be in the form of supplements, herbs, foods as curatives,
                  animal products as therapy, it is all following the medical paradigm,
                  and the people who believe in these methods are some of the most
                  vociferous opponents of Hygiene, since it does not follow
                  the "acceptable" course, of simply substituting one medical modality
                  for another, and rejects the "anything goes" approach, in favor of
                  allowing the body to heal, of total cooperation with Nature.

                  Interestingly, Hygiene, and specifically the information about
                  fasting, was discovered by M.D.'s--it was M.D.'s who began Hygiene
                  and who have figured most prominently in it, though in recent times
                  N.D.'s and D.C.'s have also been quite active and contributory of
                  moving the knowledge forward, especially since the medical paradigm
                  is even more strict for M.D.'s these days to use nothing but the
                  modalities acceptable to the AMA and state boards and FDA, etc. This
                  makes it virtually impossible for an M.D. to be practicing Hygiene
                  and retain their M.D. licenses.

                  Carolyn seemed to earnestly want to get away completely from the
                  medical paradigm, and in the most pure and absolute way possible,
                  even going to lengths that I begged her to come back from, such as
                  the purely spiritual approach of Christian Science, and a fruit only
                  diet, eating only what grew on the property where she lived, and
                  wanting to do a long fast right away. She seemed to be much more of a
                  purist than I even, and even more idealistic, and much braver and
                  more adventurous. I sometimes share some of my more radical ideas on
                  the lists I'm on, but I never advocate people do anything other than
                  the tried and true Hygiene. My ideas are my ideas, and I present them
                  as such. But Hygiene is factual and is life saving. And Hygiene is
                  what I urged for Carolyn. To get more of the information, and to
                  contact Dr. Bernarr when ill, and to not go off on other things.

                  But Carolyn seems to have been such a free, pure soul, not willing to
                  be constrained in any way. Sadly, poor Carolyn, in counterpoint to
                  her apparent desire to separate completely from the medical paradigm,
                  seemed to be continually more and more drawn back into it. That is
                  often the case in our society where the medics reign supreme, and
                  where people do not have the information nor power to stand up to it,
                  nor to do that which works, which is tried and true, which is the way
                  we are meant to do in Nature, which cooperates with the body. Carolyn
                  was being pulled back into the medical paradigm with surgeries, and
                  being compelled to eat things she did not want, and I believe, as a
                  result, that she tried even harder all the time to become free of it,
                  doing things that she felt would liberate her from it, yet being in
                  the end always victimized by it.

                  I think Carolyn was continually buffeted between the two worlds of
                  the medical paradigm and our whole way of life in civilization, and
                  her desire to be completely free of it and aspire to total purity.
                  She was being influenced from so many different directions, as well
                  as her own pure vision, her own path that she chose to follow as best
                  she could, and employ whatever she thought would help. Somewhere in
                  there, I tried to get her to do Hygiene. I am sorry that I did not
                  succeed.

                  I will mourn Carolyn's death always, and berate myself for what I
                  might have done differently. I also do not want to offend anyone who
                  loved and cared for her, and apologize for and mourn that I was not
                  more there for her when she needed it. Had I known that she was in
                  trouble, I would have besieged Lynn's email and the list with posts.
                  And I will of course admit any wrong that anyone can show me I may
                  have actually done.

                  But I cannot admit to anything that I feel I did not actually do,
                  such as cause Carolyn's death, or give medical advice. I feel that if
                  someone can tell me specifically what they feel I did that was wrong
                  or harmful in any way, I will admit doing so, and apologize. But to
                  give accurate information on fasting and on health is not harmful or
                  misleading.

                  I cannot say that something I said or did was either wrong or a
                  mistake if I don't feel it was. I have looked over and over what I've
                  written, and cannot find anything that was either wrong or
                  misleading. I told the truth about fasting, about eating, about
                  medical procedures. I urged Carolyn to contact Dr. Bernarr, nothing
                  more.

                  And when I urge people to contact a Dr. and they do not do so, but
                  instead do something else, how can I be responsible for their actions
                  and the results? We don't know what happened.

                  If I were a pied piper, a dangerous egotist on a power trip, leading
                  people astray, getting them to follow me, and getting Carolyn to
                  follow me, then why didn't she do as I asked her to? I urged her, and
                  said in 3 different posts that I hoped she would contact Dr. Bernarr!
                  That is all I asked, all I advised. But she did not do so, and
                  neither did Lynn.

                  I had also suggested that Carolyn and everyone read the books of
                  Herbert Shelton, as well as visit Dr. Bernarr's site. People should
                  know as much as possible about fasting and nutrition and health, IMO,
                  and they need to know this information. But they don't do that either.

                  And when I urged Carolyn to eat things other than just fruit, I was
                  not the only one, many people did also, and she ended up eating not
                  only what I hoped she would eat, but many other things that I feel
                  are deleterious. Again, she did not do what I asked. So how is it
                  that I am such a heartless egotist on a power trip with such control
                  over people?

                  I am simply a person who has found some information about health that
                  is IMO, indisputable, in the body of knowledge that is Hygiene. It
                  was begun by doctors who had been steeped in the baseless contagion
                  theory and the drug and surgery paradigm, and rejected it in favor of
                  the only pure inquiry I know of into how things actually work.

                  I make mistakes all the time, I never suggested otherwise. But the
                  body does not make mistakes! Hygiene teaches us to look for the
                  truth, how the body actually works, how Nature works, and cooperate!

                  This is very valuable information. It has been what has helped me
                  recover my health, and maintain it and continue to improve it, as it
                  has for countless other people. These are the very principles of
                  life.

                  I consider myself a teacher and a communicator, nothing more, nor
                  less. I am simply trying to get the information out to people, to the
                  few who can get past the indoctrination of the medical paradigm, the
                  beliefs in which we are so steeped, and all its ramifications, so
                  that if they choose, they can investigate it further. I can never do
                  justice to all the incredible volumes of information in the great
                  books of Hygiene, and the empirical knowledge of the great
                  practitioners of Hygiene I can only give people an overview of the
                  principles and invite them to look further, while trying to guide
                  them to eat and practice only things which will not harm them. I put
                  the information out there so that people can get better, so that they
                  can heal.

                  I feel awful that someone died, and especially that sweet girl who
                  sounded like such a wonderful soul. I am very sad about poor
                  Carolyn's death, I deeply feel the loss of that
                  dear soul whom I only knew from her few posts to the fruitarians
                  list, and whom I had hoped to meet someday, and personally be touched
                  by her pure special light. I grieve for her life cut so short.

                  I hope that sometime we can all find out what happened to Carolyn. We
                  need to find out the facts, all the facts, if possible, so that we
                  can know and understand how and why Carolyn died.

                  Zsuzsa



                  --- In fruitarians@y..., "lynnredcat10" <lynnredcat10@y...> wrote:
                  > Hello Fruitarians,
                  > My name is Terri and Im Carolyn's mom. I wanted to say thank
                  > you to those of you who stepped forth and supported us in our time
                  of
                  > need and grieving. The funeral was beautiful. Lynn and his family
                  > is staying with us for the week and we have been discussing the
                  > situation that has happened. Since my daughter's demise, I have
                  been
                  > reading up on all the threads and I want to say some things.
                  >
                  > Carolyn was not the perfect girl, I know this. But she was my
                  > daughter and I loved her dearly. She had tried to become
                  fruitarian
                  > four times before all of this happened and each time she tried, she
                  > eneded up really underweight and sick. She has always been under
                  the
                  > care of a nutritionist because Carolyn has a hyper-metabolism and
                  > almost has to eat her weight in nutrients and food just to maintain
                  > her weight.
                  >
                  > She had to have more nutrients that most people. She had to
                  eat
                  > up to six times a day, 300-400 calories per meal. She was told by
                  > her nutritionist not to go fruitarian because of this. Each time
                  she
                  > tried she got very skinny and ill. She really listened to this
                  > Southladogs because the woman had many years as a fruitarian. The
                  > decisions Carolyn made were ultimately hers but she trusted this
                  > woman fully and believed she could follow the same path.
                  >
                  > Southladogs, I dont hold you entirely responsible for this,
                  > however, I do think that with all of your knowledge and experience
                  in
                  > the field of nutrition and physiology you should know that what may
                  > work for one person may not work for another and that each of us
                  have
                  > to adjust accordingly. I just wish you could have come forth and
                  > said you could have been wrong about your decisions instead of
                  > pressing the issue and shrugging your shoulders like you didnt know
                  > what was going on. Most of the stuff I have read that you have
                  > posted recently has come from Dr. Banarr. Well even Dr. Banarr
                  > believes in resistance training and greens.
                  >
                  > You dont. You dont even eat greens anymore and you dont do
                  any
                  > kind of resistance training, you only do yoga. So in reality, even
                  > you dont follow Dr. Banarrs total advice. It really hurts me that
                  my
                  > daughter chose to follow your advice. But because you have so many
                  > years in the field, she trusted you completely. She did so blindly
                  > and this is the way it ended. I feel sorry for you that you cannot
                  > allow any room for other's beliefs.
                  >
                  > It's almost as though you take it personally if someone doesnt
                  > follow you explicitely and without question, like its of some
                  > personal endeavor and hurts you if they go their own way and do
                  thier
                  > own thing. That is what learning is all about. You dont even
                  follow
                  > the advice of the man who CREATED fruitarianism. You instead, have
                  > created your own kind. And you get angry and steaming if everyone
                  > doesnt follow you. On top of it, you launch into these thousand
                  mile
                  > lectures over and over. It's as though nothing really comes from
                  the
                  > heart.
                  >
                  > Again, I just wish you could be decent enough to admit you were
                  > wrong. Ease my heart, ease the pain and just admit that you dont
                  > know it all and that you do screw up and that you arent the
                  authority
                  > on all that exists in fruitarianism. That is all I ask. Show the
                  > character and decency as a human that you profess, be real, stop
                  > showing everyone what you want them to see and just admit you arent
                  > perfect either and that you made a mistake. We can forgive.
                  Forget
                  > no, but forgive yes. You are human, what's wrong with that?
                  What's
                  > wrong with admitting you screw up too?
                  >
                  > I dont think Im asking much here. The only other thing I ask
                  is
                  > that you dont mislead others and you dont hold everyone to
                  absolutes,
                  > that there are no margins for error, that the people on this group
                  > can be themselves and that this has been a lesson that everyone can
                  > learn from. Please just allow people to mess up and if they eat
                  > veggies or greens please dont berate them and make them feel
                  guilty.
                  > Because I dont really believe that you live only on fruits and nuts
                  > either. I honestly believe it is an image you present for others
                  to
                  > see so they will think you are perfect, perfectly disciplined and
                  > utterly grand.
                  >
                  > I read in one of your posts that you "Have no deficiencies."
                  > That is a bold statement. I have deficiencies. Im not good in
                  math,
                  > I am not the best driver on the road, I dont always pay my bills on
                  > time, I trip and fall now and then, Im not always good at calling
                  > people back, and the list goes on. I do have deficiencies. Until
                  > you admit that you too have FAULTS (another word for deficincies),
                  > then you place yourself as a god to others, an unfaltering leader
                  who
                  > can do no wrong and until you learn that you are no better than
                  > anyone else, then you will be a lonley, miserable person that no
                  one
                  > can really relate to. And those that do relate to you will only do
                  > so to prevent the wrath you will pour out if they do not cornform.
                  >
                  > Everyone, I have deficiencies, I have faults, I make mistakes
                  > and so does Lynn and everyone else on here. I was very happy to
                  read
                  > that most everyone came forth and admitted it, except Southladogs.
                  I
                  > just wish she could...thank you to the rest of you for your
                  continued
                  > support....
                  > Sincerely,
                  > Terri
                • Theodore
                  Zsuzsa.. Thank you:very much. ... ===== Theodore H Schmidkonz.... It is the learner, (not the teacher), who determines the methods by which one can be
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 17, 2002
                    Zsuzsa..

                    Thank you:very much.
                    =======================================================


                    > Terri and all,
                    >
                    > I am responding here to your post, Terri, but also
                    > in part to some of
                    > the other posts recently on the fruitarian list.
                    >
                    > Fasting is not dangerous, and does not kill. Fasting
                    > is the oldest
                    > and the only healing modality in Nature. Animals all
                    > fast when ill,
                    > and do nothing else, the body heals itself. Of
                    > course, in life, some
                    > sudden great injury or poisoning can happen to
                    > people which are so
                    > overwhelming to the body, from which they cannot
                    > recover. In those
                    > cases, the body does its best.
                    >
                    > But when the body institutes an acute inflammation
                    > in the normal
                    > course of things, it is specifically for healing and
                    > cleansing,
                    > generally the toxins one has stored, and one needs
                    > to fast in order
                    > that the body can do its work. That is true, and
                    > that is what I have
                    > posted. It is not dangerous in any way.
                    >
                    > What is dangerous is to feed the body when it is
                    > ill, and to continue
                    > normal activity, and to be given or take drugs or
                    > herbs or anything
                    > else to suppress symptoms, or be given medical
                    > procedures to suppress
                    > symptoms. Drugs, IV's, surgeries, are dangerous
                    > assaults to the body,
                    > as are all poisons and injuries.
                    >
                    > Yet I did not tell Carolyn to fast! I told her to
                    > contact Dr.
                    > Bernarr. He has posted on other boards in one of his
                    > articles that he
                    > has helped over 100,000 people to heal. I have met
                    > people who have
                    > been helped by him.
                    >
                    > I have done numerous short fasts when my body
                    > demanded it. And I did
                    > a long fast, 27 days--I fasted "to completion" as
                    > Herbert Shelton
                    > described, and I followed, in addition the
                    > principles that Dr.
                    > Bernarr describes. I fasted on my own, but then I
                    > take full
                    > responsibility for my own health.
                    >
                    > But I never recommend that anyone go on a fast of
                    > more than a very
                    > few days on their own, since people need to know all
                    > the info on
                    > fasting, and most people have not learned it. Even
                    > if they did learn
                    > it, it would be irresponsible of me to suggest to
                    > people that they go
                    > and fast on their own.
                    >
                    > Hygiene always recommends that if someone has a
                    > health condition, to
                    > seek out the guidance of a competent, qualified
                    > health practitioner.
                    > I consider Dr. Bernarr to be the most knowledgeable
                    > and qualified.
                    >
                    > All I did was to refer Carolyn to Dr. Bernarr! I
                    > urged her to contact
                    > him! I did not give any medical advice. I said I
                    > hoped that Carolyn
                    > would opt to not have surgery--that was an opinion,
                    > not advice. I
                    > consider surgery and hospital procedures to be very
                    > harmful, and I
                    > felt it my duty to express that opinion. To contact
                    > Dr. Bernarr, that
                    > was my advice, my only advice!
                    >
                    > I did not tell Carolyn to go and fast on her own! I
                    > guess I should
                    > have put in a big caveat in big bold letters saying
                    > "do not fast on
                    > your own", but I did not think it necessary. Even if
                    > someone fasts on
                    > their own, it is not harmful. And it is the
                    > opportunity for the body
                    > to heal if they are doing it correctly. That is the
                    > reason, the only
                    > reason, that the body institutes a state of
                    > inflammation, or other
                    > illness.
                    >
                    > I have had several inflammations, as my body cleaned
                    > out so many of
                    > its parts, and always fasted during them. And after
                    > my long fast,
                    > around 9 years ago, my nutritional "deficiencies"
                    > went away, were
                    > corrected by my fast--I had had long term iron
                    > deficiency anemia
                    > which I knew of, and perhaps other undiagnosed
                    > deficiencies, yet
                    > after my long fast I had my blood tested and my
                    > erythrocytes and
                    > hemoglobin count went out the top, just as Shelton
                    > describes in his
                    > books on fasting, and I have not been anemic since.
                    >
                    > But of course I realize that appendicitis is a very
                    > acute condition,
                    > and I would especially not want to see someone fast
                    > on their own in
                    > that event. Fasting is only helpful, not harmful,
                    > but if people do
                    > things other than correct fasting, there is no
                    > telling what can
                    > happen. That is why it is imperative that someone
                    > contact a competent
                    > practitioner to supervise the fast.
                    >
                    > I at first found Dr. Bernarr's practice of fasting
                    > people via
                    > telephone and internet a bit odd, just as I found
                    > most of his ideas
                    > when I first heard them, but I have come to see the
                    > wisdom in them,
                    > one by one. Most health retreats where people are
                    > supervised on site
                    > are prohibitively expensive, and those practitioners
                    > draw blood each
                    > day, which I consider invasive and enervating in
                    > addition to
                    > unnecessary, and fast people for a maximum of two
                    > weeks, regardless
                    > of what the body needs, and do not have them rest or
                    > sleep, perhaps
                    > not even get any sun. I don't consider those to be
                    > very helpful. The
                    > most important part of fasting is the complete rest,
                    > sleeping as much
                    > as possible. I believe Dr. Bernarr is most effective
                    > in helping
                    > people, as he understands the principles of health.
                    >
                    > So there are mistakes that people can make which are
                    > attributed to
                    > fasting by those who fear and oppose fasting, but
                    > are not in
                    > actuality a result of fasting, It is possible for
                    > someone to do
                    > themselves great harm for example by breaking the
                    > fast incorrectly.
                    > If one has been fasting, especially for any length
                    > of time, to
                    > suddenly put a hamburger into their body, or IV's
                    > put into the person
                    > in a hospital, or drugs or surgery, would be such a
                    > great shock to a
                    > body whose metabolism is so totally at rest, that it
                    > can literally
                    > kill them quickly. In addition to the fact that if a
                    > person's body is
                    > not finished with the healing, to tax it further
                    > with either food or
                    > with medical procedures can be very harmful. This is
                    > in addition to
                    > the fact that the inimical practices done by
                    > medicine in themselves
                    > are harmful, IMO.
                    >
                    > Many people, including famous Hygienists such as
                    > Shelton and Fry,
                    > have followed medical protocols instead of Hygiene
                    > and/or gone to
                    > hospitals after not following the principles that
                    > they brilliantly
                    > educated others to do. As a result, they did not
                    > survive the medical
                    > procedures and died. Of course, it's not news when
                    > people die at the
                    > hands of medics, it happens every day. I have known
                    > countless people
                    > who died on the operating table, or soon after
                    > surgery, as well as
                    > never leaving the hospital alive even without
                    > surgery, whatever
                    > substances or procedures they were given.
                    >
                    > Isn't it interesting that when someone is sick or
                    > injured, and they
                    > get no conventional medical intervention, they are
                    > told that it is
                    > only due to luck that they survived the illness or
                    > injury without it.
                    > And if they do get conventional medical
                    > intervention, and they
                    > survive the medical intervention plus the sickness
                    > or injury, they
                    > are told that the medical intervention saved them!
                    >
                    > And if they are sick or injured and get conventional
                    > medical
                    > intervention, and they don't survive, people are
                    > taught to think that
                    > they died despite the valiant and heroic efforts of
                    > the medical
                    > intervention to save them. And if they get sick or
                    > injured and do not
                    > get conventional medical intervention, and do not
                    > survive, then
                    > people are taught to think that the reason they did
                    > not survive is
                    > because they did not get conventional medical
                    > intervention, and that
                    > the non-conventional protocol killed them.
                    >
                    > And if they did not get conventional medical
                    > intervention at first,
                    > but instead do a different protocol, and then later
                    > they get
                    > conventional medical intervention and then die, it
                    > is always the lack
                    > of conventional intervention "in time" that is
                    > blamed for the death,
                    > and the discipline that was followed instead that is
                    > blamed, it is
                    > never the conventional medical intervention later
                    > followed that is
                    > blamed for the death!
                    >
                    > I believe that until and unless we find out exactly
                    > what happened
                    > with Carolyn, all that is known of what she did and
                    > what was done to
                    > her, we will not know the cause of her death. It
                    > does not help to say
                    > that I or anything I wrote caused her death, and
                    > assume that is true.
                    > To blame fasting, or Hygiene, is based on
                    > assumption, not on facts.
                    > To get the facts, we need to find out what happened,
                    > all that
                    > happened.
                    >
                    > It has often happened also that people will fast,
                    > even if they fast
                    > at a retreat under lock and key, that once they are
                    > discharged, they
                    > are taken to a hospital and then they die in the
                    > hospital, yet it is
                    > not the hospital, and the invasive procedures that
                    > are done there
                    > that is held responsible for the death, but instead
                    > the fasting
                    > institution where the patient was prior to the
                    > hospital, and fasting
                    > is denounced and blamed for the death.
                    >
                    > Throughout history, many people when ill have also
                    > gone into states
                    > in which the body forces absolute rest upon the
                    > body, such as
                    > dizziness, fainting, and even coma. People can think
                    > the person is
                    > dead or dying. That is why people are now buried in
                    > locked caskets,
                    > six feet under ground--because in the past too many
                    > people were able
                    > to open their caskets and crawl out!
                    >
                    > When one is in a state of coma or other state of
                    > deep rest, what
                    > would a hospital do? Try to bring them out of it.
                    > Yet that is the
                    > most harmful thing to do. I once made that mistake
                    > with one of my
                    > beloved dogs. He fell into a coma, and was holding
                    > his own. I took
                    > him to an emergency vet hospital and within a very
                    > few minutes of
                    > their beginning to work on him, he died. Actually,
                    > he was not yet
                    > dead, as they "brought him back", and I should have
                    > been smart enough
                    > to take him home at that point, but instead I
                    > trusted their protocol
                    > and kept him in the vet hospital, even transferring
                    > him across town
                    > to a specialist at another vet hospital, at the
                    > first hospital's
                    > recommendation. Poor Bruno died a couple of days
                    > later, drugged and
                    > hooked to tubes, they tried for a half hour to
                    > revive him. It turned
                    > out he had a brain inflammation, which his body was
                    > in deep rest to
                    > heal with, and I am sure that if I'd left him alone,
                    > kept him at home
                    > and allowed to just rest, he would have healed just
                    > fine.
                    >
                    > If someone is fasting, and they are in deep rest and
                    > their body is
                    > totally at work on a very acute condition, the worst
                    > thing to do is
                    > to take them to a hospital. It is of course the
                    > thing that people do,
                    > out of a motivation to try to save them, but it can
                    > kill them. Not
                    > just if the person has been fasting, but of course
                    > including that
                    > event as well.
                    >
                    > Lynn told us that Carolyn was taken to the hospital
                    > at some point. We
                    > don't have the details of what was done to her, or
                    > what she was
                    > given, nor what happened before or after that point.
                    > We just don't
                    > know what happened. And we don't know what Carolyn
                    > did before going
                    > to the hospital.
                    >
                    > But if we can find out what happened, I suspect that
                    > what caused her
                    > death may have been something that Carolyn did, if
                    > anything, other
                    > than fasting, and more importantly, something that
                    > was done to her,
                    > or given to her. We do not at this point have
                    > anything more than a
                    > few statements from Lynn about what he felt
                    > happened, not clear, and
                    > not sequential. We don't really know all that
                    > happened, and I think
                    > it would take Lynn's recounting of all the events to
                    > find out,
                    > something he is probably not able to do at this
                    > time, in order to get
                    > a better idea as to what may have actually caused
                    > Carolyn's death.
                    >
                    > I always accept responsibility for anything that I
                    > have done wrong. I
                    > so deeply regret that I did not try to contact Lynn
                    > to find out how
                    > Carolyn was doing, perhaps I could have urged them
                    > again to contact
                    > Dr. Bernarr. I assumed that Carolyn and Lynn would
                    > have contacted Dr.
                    > Bernarr as I urged, or else Lynn would have insisted
                    > on taking
                    > Carolyn to the hospital, and I did not want to
                    > disturb them in
                    > whatever course they chose. Lynn has several times
                    > contacted the list
                    > about Carolyn, and seemed to always do so whenever
                    > he was worried
                    > that something was wrong, and I assumed that either
                    > he or Carolyn
                    > would immediately contact the list if that were the
                    > case.
                    >
                    > The fruitarian list has generally been a quiet
                    > place, with infrequent
                    > postings, and Carolyn and Lynn did not post for
                    > months at a time.
                    > When Carolyn posted that she was eating only fruit,
                    > which I have
                    > never advised anyone to do, and that she was very
                    > skinny, I
                    > immediately posted, urging her to eat greens, and
                    > nuts, and seeds, in
                    > addition to fruit, plentifully, a diet which has
                    > proved over a long
                    > period and myriad people to be optimal for humans.
                    > Lynn posted
                    > telling us that Carolyn then began eating all of
                    > that. In addition
                    > Lynn posted that Carolyn was eating grains, plus
                    > other things.
                    >
                    > The list did not hear from Carolyn again until she
                    > asked for advice
                    > about her appendicitis, one post only. There was no
                    > reply from
                    > Carolyn or Lynn to any of the responses, any of the
                    > suggestions
                    > people made, nothing, so we had no way of knowing
                    > what course of
                    > action Carolyn and Lynn chose at that time, nor
                    > subsequently, nor
                    > anything that happened, no word until Lynn posted
                    > with the news of
                    > Carolyn's death. Unfortunately, I thought that no
                    > news was good news,
                    > and will always regret not posting on the list or
                    > trying to contact
                    > Lynn via email to ask about Carolyn. Had I done so,
                    > although my only
                    > advice was not followed, and I cannot control the
                    > actions of other
                    > people, perhaps I could have again asked that Dr.
                    > Bernarr be
                    > contacted, and helped to avert Carolyn's death.
                    >
                    > What I have written about the fruitarian diet is
                    > true, though of
                    > course people may disagree. Of course, people's
                    > needs and conditions
                    > vary. I have never told people to eat only fruit,
                    > though I have said
                    > I think it may be the ultimate diet, but that would
                    > be way in the
                    > future if at all. When Lynn posted that Carolyn was
                    > eating only
                    > fruit, I posted asking Carolyn to eat plenty of the
                    > components of
                    > what Hygiene considers the ultimate diet: fruits,
                    > leafy vegetables,
                    > nuts, and seeds. I have thrived on this diet for 12
                    > years, and I know
                    > folks who have done so even longer, among the many
                    > who are following
                    > this fruitarian diet�fruitarian does not mean fruit
                    > only to most
                    > people.
                    >
                    > I don't know what is meant when someone posts about
                    > the man who
                    > invented fruitarianism. Different people mean
                    > different things when
                    > they speak of fruitarianism. Some people consider it
                    > is eating
                    > exclusively anything that is or has a seed. So some
                    > people eat
                    > grains, which are seeds, but they are not seeds
                    > which are edible in
                    > their natural states, by humans. Using that
                    > definition, they may
                    > include baked or sprouted grains in their diets.
                    > Hygiene teaches that
                    > our natural fruitarian diet is fruits, leafy greens,
                    > nuts, and seeds,
                    > raw and uncooked, unfrozen, unsprouted, in their
                    > natural state. There
                    > are people who feel a fruitarian diet is fruit only.
                    > Many variations
                    > and definitions of what a fruitarian diet is.
                    >
                    > The fruitarian diet has been around for at least one
                    > million years,
                    > fossil records confirm that 1 to 1.5 million years
                    > ago, humans ate
                    > nothing but fruits and nuts. I believe that is our
                    > natural diet, what
                    > we eat, along with some greens perhaps, when we are
                    > not in an ice
                    > age, and have ample access to our natural,
                    > compatible foods. I know
                    > of nothing else in Nature that is easily obtainable
                    > and edible and
                    > appealing and compatible in our bodies. If we put
                    > into their bodies
                    > anything other than these foods, IMO, we will run
                    > into real trouble
                    > with our health somewhere down the line, yet people
                    > usually don't
                    > know or acknowledge that that is the cause of their
                    > problems.
                    >
                    > A word about the short fast that Carolyn did several
                    > months ago,
                    > where I had her fast for 3 days: It was a much less
                    > serious
                    > situation, and I monitored the situation. I had
                    > actually contacted
                    > Lynn via the email he has posted on the list, and he
                    > sent me a
                    > response, so I was in effect supervising that fast.
                    > I told her to
                    > stop after 3 days as I didn't feel competent to
                    > continue her. When
                    > Carolyn did not seem to feel better--I now realize
                    > she should have
                    > continued to fast, but I was afraid to have her do
                    > so--and Lynn asked
                    > what he should do, I agonized over it, but I told
                    > him to do what he
                    > felt was right--I did not want to give any advice. I
                    > suggested that
                    > he might want to take her to a doctor or hospital
                    > for a diagnosis,
                    > though I suspected that to go to a hospital would
                    > mean that they
                    > would immediately aggressively insist on doing
                    > surgery, as that is
                    > their protocol. Had I thought to refer him to Dr.
                    > Bernarr, that would
                    > have been my only advice.
                    >
                    > Had I thought to refer him to Dr. Bernarr, and if he
                    > had contacted
                    > Dr. Bernarr on Carolyn's behalf, I think things at
                    > that time may have
                    > turned out very differently, and perhaps the whole
                    > course of events
                    > also. That was a mistake on my part. I make tons of
                    > mistakes, all the
                    > time! I do not claim to have no deficiencies, only
                    > no nutritional
                    > deficiencies!
                    >
                    > I am all too human. But I do understand more about
                    > nutrition and
                    > health than most people, as a result of all that I
                    > have experienced
                    > and learned. And I just want to share it with
                    > people, though
                    > sometimes I admit my methods of communicating may
                    > not suit everyone's
                    > tastes. I am working on it.
                    >
                    > I am not the egotist that some people seem to think
                    > I am. I simply
                    > state what I know, just as everyone else does. I
                    > have tried to do it
                    > more and more diplomatically to try to mitigate
                    > people's upsets about
                    > being introduced to information that is so different
                    > from, and what
                    > conflicts with, what they are used to. I think that
                    > most of the
                    > people who lash out at me are those who have some
                    > very specific
                    > agenda and bias that conflicts with the info of
                    > Hygiene. I suspect
                    > that they feel their ideas very threatened by the
                    > Hygienic info,
                    > since Hygiene basically is a return to Nature,
                    > without any following
                    > of the medical paradigm, including any alternative
                    > modalities which
                    > seek to cure by using things people eat or take that
                    > are purportedly
                    > natural but are used as medicines instead of food.
                    >
                    > And I believe that pretty much all "alternative"
                    > modalities other
                    > than Hygiene seem to in some way follow the medical
                    > paradigm--that of
                    > curing, via some kind of substance or practice, in
                    > order to suppress
                    > symptoms--treating symptoms, rather than leaving the
                    > body alone to do
                    > its work. That is why Hygiene is so consistently
                    > attacked by so many,
                    > and has always been throughout its 180 year
                    > history�because Hygiene
                    > rejects the medical paradigm, which we are all
                    > taught from birth to
                    > accept. As can be seen, those who believe in
                    > "alternative" medicine,
                    > whether it be in the form of supplements, herbs,
                    > foods as curatives,
                    > animal products as therapy, it is all following the
                    > medical paradigm,
                    > and the people who believe in these methods are some
                    > of the most
                    > vociferous opponents of Hygiene, since it does not
                    > follow
                    > the "acceptable" course, of simply substituting one
                    > medical modality
                    > for another, and rejects the "anything goes"
                    > approach, in favor of
                    > allowing the body to heal, of total cooperation with
                    > Nature.
                    >
                    > Interestingly, Hygiene, and specifically the
                    > information about
                    > fasting, was discovered by M.D.'s--it was M.D.'s who
                    > began Hygiene
                    > and who have figured most prominently in it, though
                    > in recent times
                    > N.D.'s and D.C.'s have also been quite active and
                    > contributory of
                    > moving the knowledge forward, especially since the
                    > medical paradigm
                    > is even more strict for M.D.'s these days to use
                    > nothing but the
                    > modalities acceptable to the AMA and state boards
                    > and FDA, etc. This
                    > makes it virtually impossible for an M.D. to be
                    > practicing Hygiene
                    > and retain their M.D. licenses.
                    >
                    > Carolyn seemed to earnestly want to get away
                    > completely from the
                    > medical paradigm, and in the most pure and absolute
                    > way possible,
                    > even going to lengths that I begged her to come back
                    > from, such as
                    > the purely spiritual approach of Christian Science,
                    > and a fruit only
                    > diet, eating only what grew on the property where
                    > she lived, and
                    > wanting to do a long fast right away. She seemed to
                    > be much more of a
                    > purist than I even, and even more idealistic, and
                    > much braver and
                    > more adventurous. I sometimes share some of my more
                    > radical ideas on
                    > the lists I'm on, but I never advocate people do
                    > anything other than
                    > the tried and true Hygiene. My ideas are my ideas,
                    > and I present them
                    > as such. But Hygiene is factual and is life saving.
                    > And Hygiene is
                    > what I urged for Carolyn. To get more of the
                    > information, and to
                    > contact Dr. Bernarr when ill, and to not go off on
                    > other things.
                    >
                    > But Carolyn seems to have been such a free, pure
                    > soul, not willing to
                    > be constrained in any way. Sadly, poor Carolyn, in
                    > counterpoint to
                    > her apparent desire to separate completely from the
                    > medical paradigm,
                    > seemed to be continually more and more drawn back
                    > into it. That is
                    > often the case in our society where the medics reign
                    > supreme, and
                    > where people do not have the information nor power
                    > to stand up to it,
                    > nor to do that which works, which is tried and true,
                    > which is the way
                    > we are meant to do in Nature, which cooperates with
                    > the body. Carolyn
                    > was being pulled back into the medical paradigm with
                    > surgeries, and
                    > being compelled to eat things she did not want, and
                    > I believe, as a
                    > result, that she tried even harder all the time to
                    > become free of it,
                    > doing things that she felt would liberate her from
                    > it, yet being in
                    > the end always victimized by it.
                    >
                    > I think Carolyn was continually buffeted between the
                    > two worlds of
                    > the medical paradigm and our whole way of life in
                    > civilization, and
                    > her desire to be completely free of it and aspire to
                    > total purity.
                    > She was being influenced from so many different
                    > directions, as well
                    > as her own pure vision, her own path that she chose
                    > to follow as best
                    > she could, and employ whatever she thought would
                    > help. Somewhere in
                    > there, I tried to get her to do Hygiene. I am sorry
                    > that I did not
                    > succeed.
                    >
                    > I will mourn Carolyn's death always, and berate
                    > myself for what I
                    > might have done differently. I also do not want to
                    > offend anyone who
                    > loved and cared for her, and apologize for and mourn
                    > that I was not
                    > more there for her when she needed it. Had I known
                    > that she was in
                    > trouble, I would have besieged Lynn's email and the
                    > list with posts.
                    > And I will of course admit any wrong that anyone can
                    > show me I may
                    > have actually done.
                    >
                    > But I cannot admit to anything that I feel I did not
                    > actually do,
                    > such as cause Carolyn's death, or give medical
                    > advice. I feel that if
                    > someone can tell me specifically what they feel I
                    > did that was wrong
                    > or harmful in any way, I will admit doing so, and
                    > apologize. But to
                    > give accurate information on fasting and on health
                    > is not harmful or
                    > misleading.
                    >
                    > I cannot say that something I said or did was either
                    > wrong or a
                    > mistake if I don't feel it was. I have looked over
                    > and over what I've
                    > written, and cannot find anything that was either
                    > wrong or
                    > misleading. I told the truth about fasting, about
                    > eating, about
                    > medical procedures. I urged Carolyn to contact Dr.
                    > Bernarr, nothing
                    > more.
                    >
                    > And when I urge people to contact a Dr. and they do
                    > not do so, but
                    > instead do something else, how can I be responsible
                    > for their actions
                    > and the results? We don't know what happened.
                    >
                    > If I were a pied piper, a dangerous egotist on a
                    > power trip, leading
                    > people astray, getting them to follow me, and
                    > getting Carolyn to
                    > follow me, then why didn't she do as I asked her to?
                    > I urged her, and
                    > said in 3 different posts that I hoped she would
                    > contact Dr. Bernarr!
                    > That is all I asked, all I advised. But she did not
                    > do so, and
                    > neither did Lynn.
                    >
                    > I had also suggested that Carolyn and everyone read
                    > the books of
                    > Herbert Shelton, as well as visit Dr. Bernarr's
                    > site. People should
                    > know as much as possible about fasting and nutrition
                    > and health, IMO,
                    > and they need to know this information. But they
                    > don't do that either.
                    >
                    > And when I urged Carolyn to eat things other than
                    > just fruit, I was
                    > not the only one, many people did also, and she
                    > ended up eating not
                    > only what I hoped she would eat, but many other
                    > things that I feel
                    > are deleterious. Again, she did not do what I asked.
                    > So how is it
                    > that I am such a heartless egotist on a power trip
                    > with such control
                    > over people?
                    >
                    > I am simply a person who has found some information
                    > about health that
                    > is IMO, indisputable, in the body of knowledge that
                    > is Hygiene. It
                    > was begun by doctors who had been steeped in the
                    > baseless contagion
                    > theory and the drug and surgery paradigm, and
                    > rejected it in favor of
                    > the only pure inquiry I know of into how things
                    > actually work.
                    >
                    > I make mistakes all the time, I never suggested
                    > otherwise. But the
                    > body does not make mistakes! Hygiene teaches us to
                    > look for the
                    > truth, how the body actually works, how Nature
                    > works, and cooperate!
                    >
                    > This is very valuable information. It has been what
                    > has helped me
                    > recover my health, and maintain it and continue to
                    > improve it, as it
                    > has for countless other people. These are the very
                    > principles of
                    > life.
                    >
                    > I consider myself a teacher and a communicator,
                    > nothing more, nor
                    > less. I am simply trying to get the information out
                    > to people, to the
                    > few who can get past the indoctrination of the
                    > medical paradigm, the
                    > beliefs in which we are so steeped, and all its
                    > ramifications, so
                    > that if they choose, they can investigate it
                    > further. I can never do
                    > justice to all the incredible volumes of information
                    > in the great
                    > books of Hygiene, and the empirical knowledge of the
                    > great
                    > practitioners of Hygiene I can only give people an
                    > overview of the
                    > principles and invite them to look further, while
                    > trying to guide
                    > them to eat and practice only things which will not
                    > harm them. I put
                    > the information out there so that people can get
                    > better, so that they
                    > can heal.
                    >
                    > I feel awful that someone died, and especially that
                    > sweet girl who
                    > sounded like such a wonderful soul. I am very sad
                    > about poor
                    > Carolyn's death, I deeply feel the loss of that
                    > dear soul whom I only knew from her few posts to the
                    > fruitarians
                    > list, and whom I had hoped to meet someday, and
                    > personally be touched
                    > by her pure special light. I grieve for her life cut
                    > so short.
                    >
                    > I hope that sometime we can all find out what
                    > happened to Carolyn. We
                    > need to find out the facts, all the facts, if
                    > possible, so that we
                    > can know and understand how and why Carolyn died.
                    >
                    > Zsuzsa
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    =====

                    Theodore H Schmidkonz....

                    "It is the learner, (not the teacher), who determines the
                    methods by which one can be approached and taught".

                    "Have a great day"!


                    __________________________________________________
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                  • Adrian Bye
                    ... I notice you keep referring to him as Dr. Bernarr. This would seem to imply he is a medical doctor. But in fact, he s a doctor of Divinity. He is not an
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 17, 2002
                      > Yet I did not tell Carolyn to fast! I told her to contact Dr.
                      > Bernarr. He has posted on other boards in one of his articles that he

                      I notice you keep referring to him as Dr. Bernarr. This would seem to imply
                      he is a medical doctor. But in fact, he's a doctor of Divinity. He is not
                      an M.D.

                      Maybe you should call him Mr. Bernarr to avoid confusion.

                      Adrian
                    • southladogs
                      Dr. Bernarr is also a D.C., which is a medical doctor, a doctor of chiropractic, which you can see in his articles that I ve posted here as well as on his
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 17, 2002
                        Dr. Bernarr is also a D.C., which is a medical doctor, a doctor of
                        chiropractic, which you can see in his articles that I've posted here
                        as well as on his website:

                        http://www.healself.org

                        Herbert Shelton was also a D.C., as are most of the Hygienic
                        practitioners today, though some are N.D.'s, or doctors of
                        naturopathy.

                        Only a few M.D.'s seem to be able to practice real Hygiene today,
                        with all the restrictions by the AMA and other agencies upon any
                        M.D.'s who use any modalities other than the accepted drugs and
                        surgery. You can read more about it in Harvey Diamond's "Fit for
                        Life", and "Fit for Life II", and if anything, things are even more
                        restrictive than when he wrote those books.

                        Zsuzsa


                        --- In fruitarians@y..., "Adrian Bye" <adrian@t...> wrote:
                        > > Yet I did not tell Carolyn to fast! I told her to contact Dr.
                        > > Bernarr. He has posted on other boards in one of his articles
                        that he
                        >
                        > I notice you keep referring to him as Dr. Bernarr. This would seem
                        to imply
                        > he is a medical doctor. But in fact, he's a doctor of Divinity.
                        He is not
                        > an M.D.
                        >
                        > Maybe you should call him Mr. Bernarr to avoid confusion.
                        >
                        > Adrian
                      • Werner
                        Hi Adrian, anyone who has completed a doctorate school and graduated ... deserves to be called Doctor .. not M.D. He could be a Doctor of philosophy or
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 17, 2002
                          Hi Adrian,
                          anyone who has completed a doctorate school and graduated ... deserves to be called "Doctor" .. not M.D.   He could be a Doctor of philosophy or anything else and rightfully be called "Dr."  But then again, most M.D.'s are quacks in my book.  To me, Dr. Bernarr is a real Doctor.  He heals people ... M.D.'s are only good for killing people.
                           
                          In health ... Werner.
                           
                          Fruits and Veggies forever.
                          -------Original Message-------
                           
                          Date: Thursday, October 17, 2002 3:34:47 PM
                          Subject: Re: [fruitarians] Re: My Name is Terri, Carolyn's Mom--using Lynn's access
                           
                          > Yet I did not tell Carolyn to fast! I told her to contact Dr.
                          > Bernarr. He has posted on other boards in one of
                          his articles that he

                          I notice you keep referring to him as Dr. Bernarr.  This would seem to imply
                          he is a medical doctor.  But in fact, he's a doctor of Divinity.  He is not
                          an M.D.

                          Maybe you should call him Mr. Bernarr to avoid confusion.

                          Adrian



                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                           
                        • Greg Quinn
                          Hey Werner, I read that you are no longer 100% raw, could you give me some more details on what happened. Greg ... From: Werner [mailto:mejda6@earthlink.net]
                          Message 12 of 13 , Oct 17, 2002
                            Hey Werner,
                             
                            I read that you are no longer 100% raw, could you give me some more details on what happened.
                             
                            Greg
                             
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Werner [mailto:mejda6@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 3:23 PM
                            To: fruitarians@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [fruitarians] Re: My Name is Terri, Carolyn's Mom--using Lynn's access

                            Hi Adrian,
                            anyone who has completed a doctorate school and graduated ... deserves to be called "Doctor" .. not M.D.   He could be a Doctor of philosophy or anything else and rightfully be called "Dr."  But then again, most M.D.'s are quacks in my book.  To me, Dr. Bernarr is a real Doctor.  He heals people ... M.D.'s are only good for killing people.
                             
                            In health ... Werner.
                             
                            Fruits and Veggies forever.
                            -------Original Message-------
                             
                            Date: Thursday, October 17, 2002 3:34:47 PM
                            Subject: Re: [fruitarians] Re: My Name is Terri, Carolyn's Mom--using Lynn's access
                             
                            > Yet I did not tell Carolyn to fast! I told her to contact Dr.
                            > Bernarr. He has posted on other boards in one of his articles that he

                            I notice you keep referring to him as Dr. Bernarr.  This would seem to imply
                            he is a medical doctor.  But in fact, he's a doctor of Divinity.  He is not
                            an M.D.

                            Maybe you should call him Mr. Bernarr to avoid confusion.

                            Adrian



                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                             


                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                          • paleo_pete
                            ... And sometimes dies. I was shocked by Carolyn s death, as I d fasted myself many times before. However, I was shocked a month before her death by the death
                            Message 13 of 13 , Oct 19, 2002
                              At 06:53 PM 10/17/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                              >is not dangerous, and does not kill. Fasting is the oldest
                              >and the only healing modality in Nature. Animals all fast when ill,
                              >and do nothing else, the body heals itself. Of course, in life, some
                              >sudden great injury or poisoning can happen to people which are so
                              >overwhelming to the body, from which they cannot recover. In those
                              >cases, the body does its best.

                              And sometimes dies. I was shocked by Carolyn's death, as I'd fasted myself
                              many times before. However, I was shocked a month before her death by the
                              death of my newly bought goats, who came down with diarhea, snot, coughing.
                              I presumed it was detox,. They stopped eating, lay down and rested. I
                              thought, great, they're fasting. After two days of fasting, they were dead.
                              Three out of four goats. The other one we gave medicine to. As I say, this
                              was a great shock for me as I'd believed in NH and fasting for 10 years.


                              >I believe that until and unless we find out exactly what happened
                              >with Carolyn, all that is known of what she did and what was done to
                              >her, we will not know the cause of her death. It does not help to say
                              >that I or anything I wrote caused her death, and assume that is true.
                              >To blame fasting, or Hygiene, is based on assumption, not on facts.
                              >To get the facts, we need to find out what happened, all that
                              >happened.


                              I don't think you are to blame ZsuZsa, or Werner who also advised to fast.
                              It was Carolyn's choice and she must be held responsible ultimately for
                              believing and choosing to do whatever she did, as have many of us believed
                              and fasted and risked our lives (risked in fastnig or in not taking
                              medication - whichever way you want to look at it).


                              >most harmful thing to do. I once made that mistake with one of my
                              >beloved dogs. He fell into a coma, and was holding his own. I took

                              Hmmm, wonder if my goats weren't dead, but were in a coma ?


                              But if we can find out what happened, I suspect that what caused her
                              >death may have been something that Carolyn did, if anything, other
                              >than fasting, and more importantly, something that was done to her,
                              >or given to her.

                              Yes, we don't know the full details, but to presume that fasting can NOT be
                              to blame is also wrong.

                              Many people HAVE died fasting. While Natural Hygiene has brought us much
                              understanding, I think it's unwise to regard it as the FINAL answer, while
                              we are still so early in the experimental stages.

                              Pete
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