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my betta

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  • agentscullyeyore@aol.com
    well the betta i had bragged about having for 4 years now is not doing well i don t think.. he is kinda just lagging around and his head bobs and well i took
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
      well the betta i had bragged about having for 4 years now is not doing well i
      don't think.. he is kinda just lagging around and his head bobs and well i
      took him out of the tank cause it was looking maybe not so fresh and put him in
      new water... which is what i do about once a month but i hadn't done it this
      month cause i am trying to get some snail babies and i didn't want to loose the
      babies that are growing. so darn.. i guess they all have to come to an end..
      just sad cause i got him right before my gma died and kinda reminded me of
      her.. and plus it is the blue iridescent color i have never seen any like him
      before... well ill see if he croaks or what not... Shannon


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • amalthea23
      are you saying that once a month you completely change his water? what size tank is he in? and does he have a filter? amalthea ...
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
        are you saying that once a month you completely change his water? what
        size tank is he in? and does he have a filter?
        amalthea
        On Dec 1, 2004, at 3:45 AM, agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

        > well the betta i had bragged about having for 4 years now is not doing
        > well i
        > don't think.. he is kinda just lagging around and his head bobs and
        > well i
        > took him out of the tank cause it was looking maybe not so fresh and
        > put him in
        > new water... which is what i do about once a month but i hadn't done
        > it this
        > month cause i am trying to get some snail babies and i didn't want to
        > loose the
        > babies that are growing. so darn.. i guess they all have to come to
        > an end..
        > just sad cause i got him right before my gma died and kinda reminded
        > me of
        > her.. and plus it is the blue iridescent color i have never seen any
        > like him
        > before... well ill see if he croaks or what not... Shannon
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • agentscullyeyore@aol.com
        Yea yea I am sure you don t agree or don t like it but yes I do I have kept bettas for 6 years and done this with them all and they are right now 2 3 and 4
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
          Yea yea I am sure you don't agree or don't like it but yes I do I have kept
          bettas for 6 years and done this with them all and they are right now 2 3 and 4
          years old so I must not be hurting them that bad..... i change all the water
          about on ce a month they do just fine.... it is about a half gallon tank.... i
          don't need info on what to do.. i don't think there is anything i can do... i
          just was sharing my story as many do here.. thanks Shannon

          are you saying that once a month you completely change his water? what
          size tank is he in? and does he have a filter?
          amalthea


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • amalthea23
          remember, just because something CAN live in the conditions you keep it in, doesn t mean it should, and you could be keeping your pets longer and living
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
            remember, just because something CAN live in the conditions you keep it
            in, doesn't mean it should, and you could be keeping your pets longer
            and living happier and healthier lives with just a little effort on
            your part. if you don't do that, then why keep them?
            amalthea
            On Dec 1, 2004, at 5:25 AM, agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

            > Yea yea I am sure you don't agree or don't like it but yes I do I have
            > kept
            > bettas for 6 years and done this with them all and they are right now
            > 2 3 and 4
            > years old so I must not be hurting them that bad..... i change all
            > the water
            > about on ce a month they do just fine.... it is about a half gallon
            > tank.... i
            > don't need info on what to do.. i don't think there is anything i can
            > do... i
            > just was sharing my story as many do here.. thanks Shannon
            >
            > are you saying that once a month you completely change his water? what
            > size tank is he in? and does he have a filter?
            > amalthea
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • agentscullyeyore@aol.com
            I just don t see the point in being negative towards someone.. if what i am doing is letting my bettas double in life.. as most I have been told on here only
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
              I just don't see the point in being negative towards someone.. if what i am
              doing is letting my bettas double in life.. as most I have been told on here
              only last up to 2 years.. then what is it that is so bad.. nothing it seems like
              so many are just ready to tell everyone how it is "supposed" to be done in
              the own opinion that just posting a comment leads to this drama.. ppl and now me
              are giogn to be scared to post anything... Shannon

              remember, just because something CAN live in the conditions you keep it
              in, doesn't mean it should, and you could be keeping your pets longer
              and living happier and healthier lives with just a little effort on
              your part. if you don't do that, then why keep them?
              amalthea


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Patrick A. Timlin
              ... Yes, I would be very interested in hearing amalthea s opinion on what it was in your post that amalthea thought was so wrong. I wasn t clear on where it
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                > I just don't see the point in being negative towards someone..
                > so many are just ready to tell everyone how it is "supposed"
                > to be done in the own opinion that just posting a comment
                > leads to this drama..

                Yes, I would be very interested in hearing amalthea's opinion on what
                it was in your post that amalthea thought was so wrong. I wasn't
                clear on where it was thought you had gone wrong.



                =====
                Patrick Timlin
                http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
              • Nimish Mathur
                Let me try and explain where it went wrong. 1/2 gallon tank is not too small for a betta. Its almost 2 Liters. Monthly water changes is probably a bit higher
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                  Let me try and explain where it went wrong.
                  1/2 gallon tank is not too small for a betta. Its almost 2 Liters. Monthly
                  water changes is probably a bit higher then one would expect it to be for
                  changing the water.

                  Now suppose I was a new comer to the hobby and read this post. Next time if
                  I am at a fish shop and see a betta in a vase, I would not be reluctant in
                  getting one just to keep it in a 1/2 gallon tank and do monthly water
                  changes as per just what I have read and with the impression that it will
                  double the life of the betta :)... Nice yeah.

                  What has not been considered are some technical facts: How much to feed the
                  betta? What temperature the bettas are kept at? What are the Nitrate levels
                  of the tap water? How stable is the water that is getting changed once a
                  month and how different is it from the tap water (In terms of PH, GH, KH,
                  Temperature). Why it works so perfectly for Shannon.

                  Half or incomplete information is very dangerous. Now suppose I would feed
                  the Betta as per the instruction on the fish food box.... How many days do
                  you suppose the water quality of that container would last in this
                  situation? My house temperature remains at a nice 28c or say 76 degrees F.
                  The betta will need more food at this temperature and hence more waste and
                  needing much more frequent water changes... correct? Why?

                  The statements were made without proper background information which is what
                  probably forced Amalthea to post comments on it and very frankly it occurred
                  to me as well.

                  As far as I can recall, her tap water has zero nitrates. Which means that it
                  will take more then a month for a betta kept at 24c temperature, sparingly
                  fed and kept in a 2 Litre container. If my tap water already has 40ppm
                  nitrates, how many days can I keep the betta in that container? Not more
                  then a week I suppose?

                  We all know very well that Bettas can be kept in small containers as long as
                  their water is changed very frequently. This frequency is dependent upon all
                  these variables which will not be same for any 2 people. Not even in the
                  same location.

                  Fish are cold water animals. This means that their life is really regulated
                  by the amount of food they are fed and the temperature they are kept at. A
                  goldfish for e.g. will live a good 20 years if kept at 15C but if it is kept
                  at 24C, it may reach its lifetime in just 10.

                  All these were considering the fact that the water parameters of the tap
                  water and the water in the betta bowl remain constant over the 1 month
                  period and the 100% water change after this 1 month period will not stress
                  the betta or cause PH/temperature fluctuations.

                  Having live aquatic plant will also help.. how? I will not go into details
                  as it has been discussed too many times.

                  I am not saying that what Shannon is doing is wrong. But what works for her
                  will(may) not work for some one else.. especially a new hobbyist who has no
                  idea about what nitrates are and what a nitrogen cycle is.

                  Nim


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Patrick A. Timlin [mailto:ptimlin@...]
                  Sent: 01 December 2004 20:02
                  To: freshwateraquariums@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Freshwater Aquariums] my betta


                  --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                  > I just don't see the point in being negative towards someone..
                  > so many are just ready to tell everyone how it is "supposed"
                  > to be done in the own opinion that just posting a comment
                  > leads to this drama..

                  Yes, I would be very interested in hearing amalthea's opinion on what
                  it was in your post that amalthea thought was so wrong. I wasn't
                  clear on where it was thought you had gone wrong.



                  =====
                  Patrick Timlin
                  http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/




                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • amalthea23
                  it s just about doing the best you can do for an animal. when you keep an animal, you have an obligation to do the best you can for it, i don t think that s
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                    it's just about doing the best you can do for an animal. when you keep
                    an animal, you have an obligation to do the best you can for it, i
                    don't think that's dramatic at all, it's just the right thing to do.
                    amalthea
                    On Dec 1, 2004, at 2:44 PM, agentscullyeyore@... wrote:

                    > I just don't see the point in being negative towards someone.. if what
                    > i am
                    > doing is letting my bettas double in life.. as most I have been told
                    > on here
                    > only last up to 2 years.. then what is it that is so bad.. nothing it
                    > seems like
                    > so many are just ready to tell everyone how it is "supposed" to be
                    > done in
                    > the own opinion that just posting a comment leads to this drama.. ppl
                    > and now me
                    > are giogn to be scared to post anything... Shannon
                    >
                    > remember, just because something CAN live in the conditions you keep
                    > it
                    > in, doesn't mean it should, and you could be keeping your pets longer
                    > and living happier and healthier lives with just a little effort on
                    > your part. if you don't do that, then why keep them?
                    > amalthea
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    >
                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                    > <111704_1104_g_300250a.gif>
                    > <l.gif>
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freshwateraquariums/
                    >  
                    > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > freshwateraquariums-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >  
                    > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service.
                    >
                    >
                    http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                    Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                  • amalthea23
                    my opinion on the matter is that most fish prefer a more stable environment. it s better to run a filter (even in such a small tank) and to change small
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                      my opinion on the matter is that most fish prefer a more stable
                      environment. it's better to run a filter (even in such a small tank)
                      and to change small amounts periodically (or just top off, whichever
                      method works best for you) than to shock the fish once a month. that's
                      a lot of stress for such a small animal.

                      amalthea
                      On Dec 1, 2004, at 3:02 PM, Patrick A. Timlin wrote:

                      > --- agentscullyeyore@... wrote:
                      > > I just don't see the point in being negative towards someone..
                      > > so many are just ready to tell everyone how it is "supposed"
                      > > to be done in the own opinion that just posting a comment
                      > > leads to this drama..
                      >
                      > Yes, I would be very interested in hearing amalthea's opinion on what
                      > it was in your post that amalthea thought was so wrong. I wasn't
                      > clear on where it was thought you had gone wrong.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > =====
                      > Patrick Timlin
                      > http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >
                      > ADVERTISEMENT
                      > <111704_1104_g_300250a.gif>
                      > <l.gif>
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freshwateraquariums/
                      >  
                      > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > freshwateraquariums-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >  
                      > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service.
                      >
                      >
                      http://www.amaltheasattic.com
                      Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                    • fishydance@aol.com
                      Nim, I d like to correct an important error. All fish are NOT cold water animals - they are cold-blooded. There is a significant difference. Cold-blooded
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                        Nim,
                        I'd like to correct an important error. All fish are NOT cold water
                        animals - they are cold-blooded. There is a significant difference.
                        Cold-blooded means the fish does not regulate it's body temperature
                        internally. Therefore, the water in which the fish lives dictates
                        its body (and blood) temperature.

                        Some fish, such as goldfish, thrive in cold water. However, other
                        fish require warm water temperatures. Tropical fish generally live
                        in warm, not cold, waters.

                        As for Bettas, there is no scientific data that indicates keeping
                        them at cooler temps will prolong their lifespan. On the contrary,
                        the natural habitat of the Betta averages close to 80 F.

                        --- In freshwateraquariums@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish Mathur"
                        <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Let me try and explain where it went wrong.
                        > 1/2 gallon tank is not too small for a betta. Its almost 2 Liters.
                        Monthly
                        > water changes is probably a bit higher then one would expect it to
                        be for
                        > changing the water.
                        >
                        > Now suppose I was a new comer to the hobby and read this post.
                        Next time if
                        > I am at a fish shop and see a betta in a vase, I would not be
                        reluctant in
                        > getting one just to keep it in a 1/2 gallon tank and do monthly
                        water
                        > changes as per just what I have read and with the impression that
                        it will
                        > double the life of the betta :)... Nice yeah.
                        >
                        > What has not been considered are some technical facts: How much to
                        feed the
                        > betta? What temperature the bettas are kept at? What are the
                        Nitrate levels
                        > of the tap water? How stable is the water that is getting changed
                        once a
                        > month and how different is it from the tap water (In terms of PH,
                        GH, KH,
                        > Temperature). Why it works so perfectly for Shannon.
                        >
                        > Half or incomplete information is very dangerous. Now suppose I
                        would feed
                        > the Betta as per the instruction on the fish food box.... How many
                        days do
                        > you suppose the water quality of that container would last in this
                        > situation? My house temperature remains at a nice 28c or say 76
                        degrees F.
                        > The betta will need more food at this temperature and hence more
                        waste and
                        > needing much more frequent water changes... correct? Why?
                        >
                        > The statements were made without proper background information
                        which is what
                        > probably forced Amalthea to post comments on it and very frankly
                        it occurred
                        > to me as well.
                        >
                        > As far as I can recall, her tap water has zero nitrates. Which
                        means that it
                        > will take more then a month for a betta kept at 24c temperature,
                        sparingly
                        > fed and kept in a 2 Litre container. If my tap water already has
                        40ppm
                        > nitrates, how many days can I keep the betta in that container?
                        Not more
                        > then a week I suppose?
                        >
                        > We all know very well that Bettas can be kept in small containers
                        as long as
                        > their water is changed very frequently. This frequency is
                        dependent upon all
                        > these variables which will not be same for any 2 people. Not even
                        in the
                        > same location.
                        >
                        > Fish are cold water animals. This means that their life is really
                        regulated
                        > by the amount of food they are fed and the temperature they are
                        kept at. A
                        > goldfish for e.g. will live a good 20 years if kept at 15C but if
                        it is kept
                        > at 24C, it may reach its lifetime in just 10.
                        >
                        > All these were considering the fact that the water parameters of
                        the tap
                        > water and the water in the betta bowl remain constant over the 1
                        month
                        > period and the 100% water change after this 1 month period will
                        not stress
                        > the betta or cause PH/temperature fluctuations.
                        >
                        > Having live aquatic plant will also help.. how? I will not go into
                        details
                        > as it has been discussed too many times.
                        >
                        > I am not saying that what Shannon is doing is wrong. But what
                        works for her
                        > will(may) not work for some one else.. especially a new hobbyist
                        who has no
                        > idea about what nitrates are and what a nitrogen cycle is.
                        >
                        > Nim
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Patrick A. Timlin [mailto:ptimlin@y...]
                        > Sent: 01 December 2004 20:02
                        > To: freshwateraquariums@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [Freshwater Aquariums] my betta
                        >
                        >
                        > --- agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                        > > I just don't see the point in being negative towards someone..
                        > > so many are just ready to tell everyone how it is "supposed"
                        > > to be done in the own opinion that just posting a comment
                        > > leads to this drama..
                        >
                        > Yes, I would be very interested in hearing amalthea's opinion on
                        what
                        > it was in your post that amalthea thought was so wrong. I wasn't
                        > clear on where it was thought you had gone wrong.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > =====
                        > Patrick Timlin
                        > http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Nimish Mathur
                        Ah sorry. My mistake. I meant cold blooded :) Typo Thanks, Nim ... From: fishydance@aol.com [mailto:fishydance@aol.com] Sent: 01 December 2004 23:00 To:
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                          Ah sorry. My mistake. I meant cold blooded :)
                          Typo
                          Thanks,
                          Nim


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: fishydance@... [mailto:fishydance@...]
                          Sent: 01 December 2004 23:00
                          To: freshwateraquariums@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Freshwater Aquariums] my betta



                          Nim,
                          I'd like to correct an important error. All fish are NOT cold water
                          animals - they are cold-blooded. There is a significant difference.
                          Cold-blooded means the fish does not regulate it's body temperature
                          internally. Therefore, the water in which the fish lives dictates
                          its body (and blood) temperature.

                          Some fish, such as goldfish, thrive in cold water. However, other
                          fish require warm water temperatures. Tropical fish generally live
                          in warm, not cold, waters.

                          As for Bettas, there is no scientific data that indicates keeping
                          them at cooler temps will prolong their lifespan. On the contrary,
                          the natural habitat of the Betta averages close to 80 F.

                          --- In freshwateraquariums@yahoogroups.com, "Nimish Mathur"
                          <nimmat4@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Let me try and explain where it went wrong.
                          > 1/2 gallon tank is not too small for a betta. Its almost 2 Liters.
                          Monthly
                          > water changes is probably a bit higher then one would expect it to
                          be for
                          > changing the water.
                          >
                          > Now suppose I was a new comer to the hobby and read this post.
                          Next time if
                          > I am at a fish shop and see a betta in a vase, I would not be
                          reluctant in
                          > getting one just to keep it in a 1/2 gallon tank and do monthly
                          water
                          > changes as per just what I have read and with the impression that
                          it will
                          > double the life of the betta :)... Nice yeah.
                          >
                          > What has not been considered are some technical facts: How much to
                          feed the
                          > betta? What temperature the bettas are kept at? What are the
                          Nitrate levels
                          > of the tap water? How stable is the water that is getting changed
                          once a
                          > month and how different is it from the tap water (In terms of PH,
                          GH, KH,
                          > Temperature). Why it works so perfectly for Shannon.
                          >
                          > Half or incomplete information is very dangerous. Now suppose I
                          would feed
                          > the Betta as per the instruction on the fish food box.... How many
                          days do
                          > you suppose the water quality of that container would last in this
                          > situation? My house temperature remains at a nice 28c or say 76
                          degrees F.
                          > The betta will need more food at this temperature and hence more
                          waste and
                          > needing much more frequent water changes... correct? Why?
                          >
                          > The statements were made without proper background information
                          which is what
                          > probably forced Amalthea to post comments on it and very frankly
                          it occurred
                          > to me as well.
                          >
                          > As far as I can recall, her tap water has zero nitrates. Which
                          means that it
                          > will take more then a month for a betta kept at 24c temperature,
                          sparingly
                          > fed and kept in a 2 Litre container. If my tap water already has
                          40ppm
                          > nitrates, how many days can I keep the betta in that container?
                          Not more
                          > then a week I suppose?
                          >
                          > We all know very well that Bettas can be kept in small containers
                          as long as
                          > their water is changed very frequently. This frequency is
                          dependent upon all
                          > these variables which will not be same for any 2 people. Not even
                          in the
                          > same location.
                          >
                          > Fish are cold water animals. This means that their life is really
                          regulated
                          > by the amount of food they are fed and the temperature they are
                          kept at. A
                          > goldfish for e.g. will live a good 20 years if kept at 15C but if
                          it is kept
                          > at 24C, it may reach its lifetime in just 10.
                          >
                          > All these were considering the fact that the water parameters of
                          the tap
                          > water and the water in the betta bowl remain constant over the 1
                          month
                          > period and the 100% water change after this 1 month period will
                          not stress
                          > the betta or cause PH/temperature fluctuations.
                          >
                          > Having live aquatic plant will also help.. how? I will not go into
                          details
                          > as it has been discussed too many times.
                          >
                          > I am not saying that what Shannon is doing is wrong. But what
                          works for her
                          > will(may) not work for some one else.. especially a new hobbyist
                          who has no
                          > idea about what nitrates are and what a nitrogen cycle is.
                          >
                          > Nim
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Patrick A. Timlin [mailto:ptimlin@y...]
                          > Sent: 01 December 2004 20:02
                          > To: freshwateraquariums@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [Freshwater Aquariums] my betta
                          >
                          >
                          > --- agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                          > > I just don't see the point in being negative towards someone..
                          > > so many are just ready to tell everyone how it is "supposed"
                          > > to be done in the own opinion that just posting a comment
                          > > leads to this drama..
                          >
                          > Yes, I would be very interested in hearing amalthea's opinion on
                          what
                          > it was in your post that amalthea thought was so wrong. I wasn't
                          > clear on where it was thought you had gone wrong.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > =====
                          > Patrick Timlin
                          > http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links







                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • Patrick A. Timlin
                          ... I see. So when Shannon made her post, rather than stating those things, which by the way are just your opinions and therefore open to debate, you instead
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                            --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                            > my opinion on the matter is that most fish prefer a more stable
                            > environment. it's better to run a filter (even in such a small
                            > tank) and to change small amounts periodically (or just top off,
                            > whichever method works best for you) than to shock the fish
                            > once a month. that's a lot of stress for such a small animal.

                            I see. So when Shannon made her post, rather than stating those
                            things, which by the way are just your opinions and therefore open to
                            debate, you instead basically implied she was keeping her betta
                            poorly and suggested she shouldn't be keeping a betta since she
                            didn't do it right (according to your own criteria). Would that be a
                            fair assessment of your post?

                            A betta in a gallon of water is not a big bioload for this type of
                            fish. As Nimish already pointed out, there are a thousand things you
                            do not know about the setup or Shannon's care. How warm the water is,
                            how often the fish is fed, etc. I would argue for most situations, a
                            100% water change on a betta tank of one gallon is not going to
                            stress out the fish assuming the new water is the same temperature. I
                            don't think a betta is going to degrade a gallon of water all that
                            fast so that the old water would be remarkably different from the new
                            water.

                            Not to say I am against frequent water changes. I try to change water
                            (amount depends on the tank in question) in my tanks weekly. Sure, I
                            don't always hit my target, but I try. But it sounds to me if her
                            betta is 4 years old, then she has done a remarkable job doing good
                            for that fish.

                            Patrick - whose comments are of course his own opinion and open to
                            debate. :)

                            =====
                            Patrick Timlin
                            http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
                          • amalthea23
                            patrick, i think you re blowing this WAY out of proportion, my issue wasn t even so much with her fish keeping habits as much as the i know it s not best, but
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                              patrick, i think you're blowing this WAY out of proportion, my issue
                              wasn't even so much with her fish keeping habits as much as the "i know
                              it's not best, but it's better than most" attitude that most people
                              take with their hobby pets. so no, that is not a fair assessment of my
                              post at all. and no, it's not an opinion that a 100% water change is a
                              shock to a fish, it is, plain and simple. how often do you do 100%
                              changes in your tank?
                              relax, no one is on the attack here but you.
                              amalthea
                              On Dec 1, 2004, at 7:07 PM, Patrick A. Timlin wrote:

                              > --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                              > > my opinion on the matter is that most fish prefer a more stable
                              > > environment. it's better to run a filter (even in such a small
                              > > tank) and to change small amounts periodically (or just top off,
                              > > whichever method works best for you) than to shock the fish
                              > > once a month. that's a lot of stress for such a small animal.
                              >
                              > I see. So when Shannon made her post, rather than stating those
                              > things, which by the way are just your opinions and therefore open to
                              > debate, you instead basically implied she was keeping her betta
                              > poorly and suggested she shouldn't be keeping a betta since she
                              > didn't do it right (according to your own criteria). Would that be a
                              > fair assessment of your post?
                              >
                              > A betta in a gallon of water is not a big bioload for this type of
                              > fish. As Nimish already pointed out, there are a thousand things you
                              > do not know about the setup or Shannon's care. How warm the water is,
                              > how often the fish is fed, etc. I would argue for most situations, a
                              > 100% water change on a betta tank of one gallon is not going to
                              > stress out the fish assuming the new water is the same temperature. I
                              > don't think a betta is going to degrade a gallon of water all that
                              > fast so that the old water would be remarkably different from the new
                              > water.
                              >
                              > Not to say I am against frequent water changes. I try to change water
                              > (amount depends on the tank in question) in my tanks weekly. Sure, I
                              > don't always hit my target, but I try. But it sounds to me if her
                              > betta is 4 years old, then she has done a remarkable job doing good
                              > for that fish.
                              >
                              > Patrick - whose comments are of course his own opinion and open to
                              > debate. :)
                              >
                              > =====
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                              > http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
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                            • Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                              Sorry to hear about your betta. Maybe warming him up a little will getting him back to normal. But a four years he has lived a long life for a betta. Patrick
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                                Sorry to hear about your betta. Maybe warming him up a little will
                                getting him back to normal. But a four years he has lived a long life for a
                                betta.

                                Patrick N.

                                Click the link below to learn about the Nitrogen Cycle.
                                Nitrogen Cycle
                                About my tanks:
                                29 gallon tank (110 Litters).
                                -I have 5 glolights, 2 neons and 3 black neons, 3 skirt tetras, 2
                                home-raised mollies, 1 home raised guppy, 2 Otocinclus catfish, 2 albino and
                                3 juli cories, 1 pleco, one female betta, and 1 paradise gourami. I do not
                                recommend this setup for starting a new tank!
                                -Plants: "hardy" aponongetons, red tiger lotus, banana plants, java ferns,
                                hornwort, and amazon swords.
                                -Single 20 watt 5000K light, plain gravel, Regent 30-60 power filter.
                                Ammonia 0ppm, Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate 30ppm, KH 2°, pH 6.4.
                                10 gallon tank (38 Liters).
                                -Multiple bettas, all born in June.
                                -Plants: hornwort, java fern
                                -2 10 watt 6500K mini fluorescent lights, plain gravel in spots, sponge
                                filter.
                                -------Original Message-------
                                well the betta i had bragged about having for 4 years now is not doing well
                                i
                                don't think.. he is kinda just lagging around and his head bobs and well i
                                took him out of the tank cause it was looking maybe not so fresh and put him
                                in
                                new water... which is what i do about once a month but i hadn't done it this

                                month cause i am trying to get some snail babies and i didn't want to loose
                                the
                                babies that are growing. so darn.. i guess they all have to come to an end..

                                just sad cause i got him right before my gma died and kinda reminded me of
                                her.. and plus it is the blue iridescent color i have never seen any like
                                him
                                before... well ill see if he croaks or what not... Shannon

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Patrick, The American Fish Guy
                                and no, it s not an opinion that a 100% water change is a shock to a fish, it is, plain and simple. how often do you do 100% changes in your tank? Not that
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                                  "and no, it's not an opinion that a 100% water change is a shock to a fish,
                                  it is, plain and simple. how often do you do 100% changes in your tank?"

                                  Not that argument again! :(

                                  How many times and in how many places will I have to say this? There is a
                                  rule of aquaria that is universal for everyone:

                                  What works for you works for you, what works for me works for me, but my way
                                  is always better.

                                  Patrick N., who is not the same Patrick that was already involved in this discussion but thought he had to stick his nose in anyway.

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • fishydance@aol.com
                                  but my way is always better. Thanks Patrick - you made me smile! (something we could all use a few more of) :) Shirlie ... to a fish, ... tank? ... There
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                                    "but my way is always better."

                                    Thanks Patrick - you made me smile! (something we could all use a
                                    few more of) :)

                                    Shirlie

                                    --- In freshwateraquariums@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick, The American
                                    Fish Guy" <americanfishguy@h...> wrote:
                                    > "and no, it's not an opinion that a 100% water change is a shock
                                    to a fish,
                                    > it is, plain and simple. how often do you do 100% changes in your
                                    tank?"
                                    >
                                    > Not that argument again! :(
                                    >
                                    > How many times and in how many places will I have to say this?
                                    There is a
                                    > rule of aquaria that is universal for everyone:
                                    >
                                    > What works for you works for you, what works for me works for me,
                                    but my way
                                    > is always better.
                                    >
                                    > Patrick N., who is not the same Patrick that was already involved
                                    in this discussion but thought he had to stick his nose in anyway.
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • agentscullyeyore@aol.com
                                    attitude then ou would be even more far off.. in just aa year i have learned so much and have such an awesome love for fish how can you even think or incur
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                                      attitude then ou would be even more far off.. in just aa year i have learned
                                      so much and have such an awesome love for fish how can you even think or incur
                                      that i don't... i talk about my fish all the time i have been an active
                                      member trying to learn and get better in each circumstance i fall under with my
                                      tanks.. and heck i am doing my thesis on aquariums.. how much more positive
                                      attitude can i give... shannon

                                      patrick, i think you're blowing this WAY out of proportion, my issue
                                      wasn't even so much with her fish keeping habits as much as the "i know
                                      it's not best, but it's better than most" attitude that most people
                                      take with their hobby pets. so no, that is not a fair assessment of my
                                      post at all. and no, it's not an opinion that a 100% water change is a
                                      shock to a fish, it is, plain and simple. how often do you do 100%
                                      changes in your tank?
                                      relax, no one is on the attack here but you.
                                      amalthea


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Patrick A. Timlin
                                      ... OK but rather than explaining what you think is a better way of doing it, your reply was a bit, I thought, on the harsh side. Apparently Shannon felt the
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 1, 2004
                                        --- amalthea23 <amalthea23@...> wrote:
                                        > patrick, i think you're blowing this WAY out of proportion, my
                                        > issue wasn't even so much with her fish keeping habits as much
                                        > as the "i know it's not best, but it's better than most" attitude
                                        > that most people take with their hobby pets.

                                        OK but rather than explaining what you think is a better way of doing
                                        it, your reply was a bit, I thought, on the harsh side. Apparently
                                        Shannon felt the same way.


                                        > and no, it's not an opinion that a 100% water change
                                        > is a shock to a fish, it is, plain and simple.

                                        No it isn't, not in all situations. In many cases I wouldn't suggest
                                        your average hobbiest do this, but I would never make the blanket
                                        statement that all 100% water changes are bad.


                                        > how often do you do 100% changes in your tank?

                                        Not very often but I have, but then again I am not a breeder. You
                                        will find breeders do 100% water changes all the time, usually daily.
                                        I do have a small 2 gallon tank with some small livebearer fry in it
                                        that I have been doing a nearly 100% change once or twice a week and
                                        they are doing fine. I am trying to grow them out so I can place them
                                        in another tank that has a certain fish that will snack on them if
                                        they are too small.


                                        =====
                                        Patrick Timlin
                                        http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
                                      • highwaychilde
                                        just topping off the water would cause nitrates to continue building up. Dattilo ... tank) ... whichever ... that s ... what ... Terms of
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 16, 2004
                                          just topping off the water would cause nitrates to continue building
                                          up.
                                          Dattilo

                                          --- In freshwateraquariums@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                          <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                          > my opinion on the matter is that most fish prefer a more stable
                                          > environment. it's better to run a filter (even in such a small
                                          tank)
                                          > and to change small amounts periodically (or just top off,
                                          whichever
                                          > method works best for you) than to shock the fish once a month.
                                          that's
                                          > a lot of stress for such a small animal.
                                          >
                                          > amalthea
                                          > On Dec 1, 2004, at 3:02 PM, Patrick A. Timlin wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > --- agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                          > > > I just don't see the point in being negative towards someone..
                                          > > > so many are just ready to tell everyone how it is "supposed"
                                          > > > to be done in the own opinion that just posting a comment
                                          > > > leads to this drama..
                                          > >
                                          > > Yes, I would be very interested in hearing amalthea's opinion on
                                          what
                                          > > it was in your post that amalthea thought was so wrong. I wasn't
                                          > > clear on where it was thought you had gone wrong.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > =====
                                          > > Patrick Timlin
                                          > > http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
                                          > >
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                                        • Patrick A. Timlin
                                          ... As well as hardness and TDS (total dissolved solids). ===== Patrick Timlin http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 16, 2004
                                            --- highwaychilde <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                            > just topping off the water would cause
                                            > nitrates to continue building up.

                                            As well as hardness and TDS (total dissolved solids).


                                            =====
                                            Patrick Timlin
                                            http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
                                          • amalthea23
                                            not if you have plants in the tank and note ... amalthea ... http://www.amaltheasattic.com Custom Dreadfalls, Creepy Toys, and Much, Much More...
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Dec 16, 2004
                                              not if you have plants in the tank and note
                                              > change small amounts periodically
                                              amalthea
                                              On Dec 16, 2004, at 6:56 AM, highwaychilde wrote:

                                              >
                                              > just topping off the water would cause nitrates to continue building
                                              > up.
                                              > Dattilo
                                              >
                                              > --- In freshwateraquariums@yahoogroups.com, amalthea23
                                              > <amalthea23@m...> wrote:
                                              > > my opinion on the matter is that most fish prefer a more stable
                                              > > environment. it's better to run a filter (even in such a small
                                              > tank)
                                              > > and to change small amounts periodically (or just top off,
                                              > whichever
                                              > > method works best for you) than to shock the fish once a month.
                                              > that's
                                              > > a lot of stress for such a small animal.
                                              > >
                                              > > amalthea
                                              > > On Dec 1, 2004, at 3:02 PM, Patrick A. Timlin wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > > --- agentscullyeyore@a... wrote:
                                              > > >  > I just don't see the point in being negative towards someone..
                                              > > >  > so many are just ready to tell everyone how it is "supposed"
                                              > > >  > to be done in the own opinion that just posting a comment
                                              > > >  > leads to this drama..
                                              > > >
                                              > > >  Yes, I would be very interested in hearing amalthea's opinion on
                                              > what
                                              > > >  it was in your post that amalthea thought was so wrong. I wasn't
                                              > > >  clear on where it was thought you had gone wrong.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >  =====
                                              > > >  Patrick Timlin
                                              > > > http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/
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