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Re: Naturopath says 1. ALA concerns not warranted 2. Vit C is a chelator

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  • andrewhallcutler
    ... OK ... I guess he hasn t looked. ... If they re human, they have no business taking alpha lipoic acid unless chelating and on a chelation protocol except
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 1, 2010
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      --- In frequent-dose-chelation@yahoogroups.com, "moby_dick150m@..." <moby_dick150m@...> wrote:
      >
      > Owen Fonorow, N.D. writes:
      > "Correct me,

      OK

      >but other than some unspecified "caution", there hasn't been any arguments made for what the ALA warning should be that (Cutler) advocates?

      I guess he hasn't looked.

      >Who exactly should be careful, and how would they know, and what might they expect to happen?

      If they're human, they have no business taking alpha lipoic acid unless chelating and on a chelation protocol except when they are in a situation where it is a proper treatment for urgent or emergent health problems that will lead to permanent and irreversible morbidity, or to mortality.
      >
      > You (Cutler)

      Since he seems to be talking to me, someone please be so kind as to post my response wherever he is talking (and everywhere relevant) and insist that it be left there, unedited.

      > seem to have classified ALA along with DPMS/EDTA/DMSA, e.g., chelation drugs,

      It is a chelation nutritional supplement.

      What is a drug and what is a supplement is a legal definition, not a technical or medical one.

      I have generally found it hard to educate people who don't even know what the words we are using mean, so let's get clear on this concept.

      Chemicals are chemicals. Some of them are called drugs, some are called nutritional supplements, for reasons unrelated to much in the way of technical reality.

      Regardless of what we choose to call them, they're chemicals and they do whatever the laws of nature dictate when they are inside people. What we call them does not change what they do or don't do.

      >simply because it has a property of chelating mercury. I accept that property of ALA,

      At least we agree on this!

      >but not its classification as a drug.

      See above. You're making an irrelevant argument - it isn't a drug, it is a nutritional supplement. I've never said anything different. It's a lot easier to reach some resolution or agreement to disagree if you at least quote me or characterize my position properly.

      > It along with vitamin C has many many health benefiting properties on its own, outside of chelation, and in the case of ALA, it is especially important for diabetics. If your concern was warranted, ALA would be likely classified closer to a poison than a nutrient. There is a disconnect here.


      Yes, you are totally disconnected from reality.

      That paragraph has zero techincal content.

      Honestly I can't guess what you are trying to say, which makes it hard to answer.

      I think what you are saying is that pills are either good or bad. If they're good they are 100% good, everything they do is good, they can be used randomly and people will get better.

      If they are bad everyone suffers horribly and falls over dead promptly from taking a few pills.

      Since you haven't seen anyone fall over dead from taking ALA, it must be 100% good.

      The world is more complicated than this. E. g. diabetics with neuropathy who take say 600 mg ALA bid will have prompt (days) relief of neuropathy with rapid (months) progression of lots of other symptoms, including the neuropathy coming back a little quicker and being a little worse after each dose.

      Incompetent fools pretending to be health care practitioners will only notice how the patients seem to get prompt relief, and won't realize that after 6 months they're far sicker than before - and far sicker than other diabetics who don't take the ALA get from waiting 6 months.

      > And to repeat posts elsewhere, vitamin C fits the definition of a chelator given in Wikipedia,

      Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information.

      >and the biochemists Michael B Davis, John Austin, and David A Partridge who wrote the book VITAMIN C: Its Chemistry and Biochemistry published by the Royal Society of Chemistry (UK) say that vitamin C is a heavy metal chelator. For example, on page 133 of the paperback, under the section title Reactions with Metal Ions:
      > <<<Quote:
      > Vitamin C forms complexes with metals, even those which it is capable of reducing, such as iron or copper. It is a potentially bidentate ligand.....

      Yes, people who don't know anything about chemistry, including what the big words mean, might get confused.
      >
      > ... the complexes formed are weaker than they should be in comparison to the complexes of similar chelating ligands...
      >
      > ... such complexes are formed in alkaline solution..>>>

      Yes, and in fact what is a chelator is determined by the competitive equilibrium in the solution in question.

      What they said is vitamin C is a weak chelator (as are all the nonsulfur/selenium amino acids). In solutions with a lot of amino acids, proteins, sulfur bearing compounds, etc. like blood plasma or cytosol vitamin C is not a chelator for heavy metals.

      ALA in its reduced form (the reduction is carried out by an enzyme that is always working if you are alive) is a chelator under these conditions, as are DMSA and DMPS.
      >
      > (Presumably the authors are not only chemists, but experts in vitamin C.)"

      and would understand what I am saying and think you are clueless to infer what you do from their writings.

      > -Owen Fonorow, quoted from www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8417&start=105
      > _______________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Andy or other frequent-dose members, do you have any comments?
      >

      As above.

      It is somewhat hard to answer other than to be bombastic. I really don't see much information content and most of what there is has been misconstrued.

      In this kind of situation it's more useful to discuss what can be done and why than to go back and forth, especially when I'm a legitimate expert in things like chemistry and thus what a 'chelator' is - and what 'drug' means is very clearly defined in the law. If the other party insists on misdefining the words and using their misdefinition to prove their point by circular reasoning we aren't going to get anywhere.

      As for what to do, E. g. diabetics might be told by a competent practitioner to avoid ALA unless chelating - and during chelating it works to relieve neuropathy and improve blood sugar regulation FAR better than with daily or twice daily use - and instead to use things like benfotiamin, thiamine injections, vitamin C with each meal and at bedtime, and vitamin E plus omega 3 fatty acids to improve their neuropathy (or to promote normal healthy function of the sensory nerves of the hands and feet as those without a license need to tell their clients since free speech is forbidden in the USA) until they can chelate using ALA.

      Real doctors know more than 1 pill per condition. There are a lot of things that help with diabetes. ALA isn't the only choice.

      It is not ethical to use ALA routinely other than as a chelator. It is not ethical for people to practice as health care providers who can't understand why when it has been spelled out for them.

      Andy

      http://www.noamalgam.com/index.html
      Amalgam Illness: Diagnosis and Treatment

      http://www.noamalgam.com/hairtestbook.html
      Hair Test Interpretation: Finding Hidden Toxicities

      http://www.noamalgam.com/nourishinghope.html
      Nourishing Hope for Autism: Nutrition Intervention for Healing Our Children

      http://www.noamalgam.com/biologicaltreatments.html
      Biological Treatments for Autism and PDD
    • andrewhallcutler
      ... Ummm.... yes. It isn t quite militantly ignorant for someone to not have searched those up front before asking but the information IS pretty readily
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 1, 2010
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        --- In frequent-dose-chelation@yahoogroups.com, "JoeGrane" <joegrane610@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In frequent-dose-chelation@yahoogroups.com, "moby_dick150m@" <moby_dick150m@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Owen Fonorow, N.D. writes:
        > '...what the ALA warning should be that (Cutler) advocates? Who
        > exactly should be careful, and how would they know, and what might they expect to happen?'
        >
        > The answers are available in Cutlers writings and in this site or the onibasu archives.
        >

        Ummm.... yes.

        It isn't quite militantly ignorant for someone to not have searched those up front before asking but the information IS pretty readily available and it doesn't appear much effort was made to find it.

        Andy

        http://www.noamalgam.com/index.html
        Amalgam Illness: Diagnosis and Treatment

        http://www.noamalgam.com/hairtestbook.html
        Hair Test Interpretation: Finding Hidden Toxicities

        http://www.noamalgam.com/nourishinghope.html
        Nourishing Hope for Autism: Nutrition Intervention for Healing Our Children

        http://www.noamalgam.com/biologicaltreatments.html
        Biological Treatments for Autism and PDD
      • lindajaytee
        The definition Andy is using of chelator is not just the simple definition of something that will bind metal ions in solution. For our purposes a chelator is
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 1, 2010
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          The definition Andy is using of chelator is not just the simple definition of something that will bind metal ions in solution. For our purposes a chelator is something that will bind (certain) heavy metals and remove them from the human body.

          Andy has talked about vitamin C many times and his posts should be easily found in archives.

          There are many many people in the alternate health community who don't understand the simple basic messages that Andy Cutler has been giving for years. I find it truly remarkable that Andy gives and gives and gives and people, like this ND below and others, don't get it. I got it fast because my life depended on it. The only solution I can think of is that they really need to read and re read Andy's books until they get it. When I first started I read everything I could find. I read the journal articles, the pharmacology text books, the testimonials from real people, the debates, and then I tested everything on my own body.

          Yes, DMSA, DMPS are chelators. ALA is the only chelator that crosses the BBB and removes mercury from the brain. These all must be used at the half life, which is a basic principle of pharmacology that most others overlook.

          I do have the advantage of a science background and years of working in research so having seen what I have seen it is not at all surprising to me that one chemist does not see what another chemist sees. Unfortunately Andy doesn't have time to teach each one individually. He wrote books and thousands of messages on the internet to do that, and apparently there are more books coming.

          Linda




          --- In frequent-dose-chelation@yahoogroups.com, "moby_dick150m@..." <moby_dick150m@...> wrote:
          >
          > Owen Fonorow, N.D. writes:
          > "Correct me, but other than some unspecified "caution", there hasn't been any arguments made for what the ALA warning should be that (Cutler) advocates? Who exactly should be careful, and how would they know, and what might they expect to happen?
          >
          > You (Cutler) seem to have classified ALA along with DPMS/EDTA/DMSA, e.g., chelation drugs, simply because it has a property of chelating mercury. I accept that property of ALA, but not its classification as a drug. It along with vitamin C has many many health benefiting properties on its own, outside of chelation, and in the case of ALA, it is especially important for diabetics. If your concern was warranted, ALA would be likely classified closer to a poison than a nutrient. There is a disconnect here.
          >
          > And to repeat posts elsewhere, vitamin C fits the definition of a chelator given in Wikipedia, and the biochemists Michael B Davis, John Austin, and David A Partridge who wrote the book VITAMIN C: Its Chemistry and Biochemistry published by the Royal Society of Chemistry (UK) say that vitamin C is a heavy metal chelator. For example, on page 133 of the paperback, under the section title Reactions with Metal Ions:
          > <<<Quote:
          > Vitamin C forms complexes with metals, even those which it is capable of reducing, such as iron or copper. It is a potentially bidentate ligand.....
          >
          > ... the complexes formed are weaker than they should be in comparison to the complexes of similar chelating ligands...
          >
          > ... such complexes are formed in alkaline solution..>>>
          >
          > (Presumably the authors are not only chemists, but experts in vitamin C.)"
          > -Owen Fonorow, quoted from www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8417&start=105
          > _______________________________________________________________________________
          >
          > Andy or other frequent-dose members, do you have any comments?
          >
        • lindajaytee
          When I was writing this I didn t know that Andy was responding. _ Linda
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 1, 2010
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            When I was writing this I didn't know that Andy was responding. '_'
            Linda

            --- In frequent-dose-chelation@yahoogroups.com, "lindajaytee" <lindajaytee@...> wrote:
            >
            > The definition Andy is using of chelator is not just the simple definition of something that will bind metal ions in solution. For our purposes a chelator is something that will bind (certain) heavy metals and remove them from the human body.
            >
            > Andy has talked about vitamin C many times and his posts should be easily found in archives.
            >
            > There are many many people in the alternate health community who don't understand the simple basic messages that Andy Cutler has been giving for years. I find it truly remarkable that Andy gives and gives and gives and people, like this ND below and others, don't get it. I got it fast because my life depended on it. The only solution I can think of is that they really need to read and re read Andy's books until they get it. When I first started I read everything I could find. I read the journal articles, the pharmacology text books, the testimonials from real people, the debates, and then I tested everything on my own body.
            >
            > Yes, DMSA, DMPS are chelators. ALA is the only chelator that crosses the BBB and removes mercury from the brain. These all must be used at the half life, which is a basic principle of pharmacology that most others overlook.
            >
            > I do have the advantage of a science background and years of working in research so having seen what I have seen it is not at all surprising to me that one chemist does not see what another chemist sees. Unfortunately Andy doesn't have time to teach each one individually. He wrote books and thousands of messages on the internet to do that, and apparently there are more books coming.
            >
            > Linda
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In frequent-dose-chelation@yahoogroups.com, "moby_dick150m@" <moby_dick150m@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Owen Fonorow, N.D. writes:
            > > "Correct me, but other than some unspecified "caution", there hasn't been any arguments made for what the ALA warning should be that (Cutler) advocates? Who exactly should be careful, and how would they know, and what might they expect to happen?
            > >
            > > You (Cutler) seem to have classified ALA along with DPMS/EDTA/DMSA, e.g., chelation drugs, simply because it has a property of chelating mercury. I accept that property of ALA, but not its classification as a drug. It along with vitamin C has many many health benefiting properties on its own, outside of chelation, and in the case of ALA, it is especially important for diabetics. If your concern was warranted, ALA would be likely classified closer to a poison than a nutrient. There is a disconnect here.
            > >
            > > And to repeat posts elsewhere, vitamin C fits the definition of a chelator given in Wikipedia, and the biochemists Michael B Davis, John Austin, and David A Partridge who wrote the book VITAMIN C: Its Chemistry and Biochemistry published by the Royal Society of Chemistry (UK) say that vitamin C is a heavy metal chelator. For example, on page 133 of the paperback, under the section title Reactions with Metal Ions:
            > > <<<Quote:
            > > Vitamin C forms complexes with metals, even those which it is capable of reducing, such as iron or copper. It is a potentially bidentate ligand.....
            > >
            > > ... the complexes formed are weaker than they should be in comparison to the complexes of similar chelating ligands...
            > >
            > > ... such complexes are formed in alkaline solution..>>>
            > >
            > > (Presumably the authors are not only chemists, but experts in vitamin C.)"
            > > -Owen Fonorow, quoted from www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8417&start=105
            > > _______________________________________________________________________________
            > >
            > > Andy or other frequent-dose members, do you have any comments?
            > >
            >
          • JoeGrane
            ... A visual aid might be helpful. You can see the dual SH groups that grab mercury and help it to get out of the brain.
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 1, 2010
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              --- In frequent-dose-chelation@yahoogroups.com, "andrewhallcutler" <AndyCutler@...> wrote:
              >
              > ... In solutions with a lot of amino acids, proteins, sulfur bearing compounds, etc. like blood plasma or cytosol vitamin C is not a chelator for heavy metals.
              >
              > ALA in its reduced form (the reduction is carried out by an enzyme that is always working if you are alive) is a chelator under these conditions, as are DMSA and DMPS.

              A visual aid might be helpful.

              You can see the dual SH groups that "grab" mercury and help it to get out of the brain.
              http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/la/lastructure.html

              In contrast, the following is the Cysteine molecule, a precursor to glutathione. It is a thiol, not a dithiol. It has one SH group.
              http://www.worldofmolecules.com/life/cysteine.htm
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