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Some observations on human behaviour and the FSP

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  • Keith L. Hamburger <burger@mcleodusa.net>
    I m not sure if this is the best place for this, and it is a bit long- winded but here are some observations on some of the behaviour surrounding the FSP.
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 26, 2003
      I'm not sure if this is the best place for this, and it is a bit long-
      winded but here are some observations on some of the behaviour
      surrounding the FSP. I've put on an amateur sociologist/psychologist
      hat and come up with the following ...



      Yesterday evening while having an extended discussion about the FSP
      with a fellow Libertarian I came to a realization about why some
      oppose us so strongly. It has little to do with the reality of the
      effort or it's chances, but involves a basic human response to
      internal conflict.

      It appears that there are some that for whatever reason; family,
      friends, other commitments, have chosen not to join with us in our
      efforts while they deep down believe that the FSP is a reasonable
      effort to achieve freedom in our lifetimes. Once they have made that
      decision they rationalize their perceived lack of support of liberty
      with their decision not to participate.

      Rationalization, in itself, is not a bad thing. It is an evolved
      human response to actions or choices that conflict with one's value
      system. I myself have rationalized many non-libertarian actions that
      I have taken to justify them to myself. I even have then argued the
      point of my rationalization to others to justify my actions to them.
      Thomas Jefferson rationalized his decisions and actions that were at
      odds with his concepts of limited government. In regards to the FSP
      it appears that Walter Williams has rationalized his decision not to
      participate as his being to old to truly contribute.

      This is a natural response to resolve the stress of conflicted
      values. When one realizes that this is what they are doing, and why,
      it can even be a powerful tool to enable you to relate to others.
      When you understand that we all take action that is in opposition to
      our belief system and justify such actions after the decision to take
      them you can better understand why others appear to fail to follow
      their own beliefs, it's something we all do. This realization allows
      us to be far less judgemental about others and accept what we see as
      flawed choices for what they are.

      When rationalization becomes a problem is when someone makes a
      decision and so internalizes the justifications for that decision
      that they begin attacking others that follow a different path. When
      one decides not to participate in the FSP and rationalizes that
      decision by deciding that it will never work because of x, y and z,
      some will then use that rationalization to oppose the project
      itself. Such opposition is a means of coping with what they perceive
      as a conflict in their own values (ie, freedom) with their decision
      not to work towards those values.

      Many, such as Walter Williams, will continue to support the efforts
      of others with whom they have chosen not to participate. Others will
      see those following the values that they wish they could follow, but,
      for whatever reason have chosen not to, and choose to attempt to
      bring them down. And, the vast majority will use their
      rationalizations to justify their own decisions but will not
      interfere, and may even completely ignore, those who continue to push
      forward.

      I believe an understanding of this will allow us to work more
      effectively with those who do not participate in the FSP. Sure,
      there are many that just think it can never work but there are a
      large number who feel threatened by such an effort. They feel that
      if this were to move forward and succeed, their lack of participation
      would bring down their rationalization and lead to a great level of
      internal conflict.

      Anyway, that's my take on some of the issues we're facing. I'm sure
      it can be developed further and my sitting in front of this monitor
      typing away for ten minutes to dump this out isn't truly adequate to
      the task I chose to pursue, but, I think it might help us get started
      in further understanding some of those that oppose our efforts.

      Keith Hamburger
    • Kelly Setzer
      ... [...] ... Perhaps the FSP should formalize some supporting membership that is separate from the FSP agreement itself. I m not sure what the FSP has to
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 26, 2003
        > It appears that there are some that for whatever reason; family,
        > friends, other commitments, have chosen not to join with us in our
        > efforts while they deep down believe that the FSP is a reasonable
        > effort to achieve freedom in our lifetimes. Once they have made that
        > decision they rationalize their perceived lack of support of liberty
        > with their decision not to participate.
        >
        > Rationalization, in itself, is not a bad thing. It is an evolved
        [...]
        > I believe an understanding of this will allow us to work more
        > effectively with those who do not participate in the FSP. Sure,

        Perhaps the FSP should formalize some "supporting" membership that
        is separate from the FSP agreement itself. I'm not sure what the FSP
        has to offer in return, except for warm fuzzies.

        I, however, am not nearly so optimistic about people. I've
        talked to a number of people about the project, and the majority of
        them reject it out of hand. My impression is that they think it can't
        possibly work, therefore, they are derisive of the idea. I don't
        really think it's internal conflict, just simple low-grade
        intellectual bigotry. We are heretics for believing.

        Kelly
      • Kevin Tuma
        ... From: Kelly Setzer To: Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [FSP]
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 26, 2003
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Kelly Setzer" <kelly.setzer@...>
          To: <freestateproject@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 12:17 PM
          Subject: Re: [FSP] Some observations on human behaviour and the FSP


          > > It appears that there are some that for whatever reason; family,
          > > friends, other commitments, have chosen not to join with us in our
          > > efforts while they deep down believe that the FSP is a reasonable
          > > effort to achieve freedom in our lifetimes. Once they have made that
          > > decision they rationalize their perceived lack of support of liberty
          > > with their decision not to participate.
          > >
          > > Rationalization, in itself, is not a bad thing. It is an evolved
          > [...]
          > > I believe an understanding of this will allow us to work more
          > > effectively with those who do not participate in the FSP. Sure,
          >
          > Perhaps the FSP should formalize some "supporting" membership that
          > is separate from the FSP agreement itself. I'm not sure what the FSP
          > has to offer in return, except for warm fuzzies.
          >
          > I, however, am not nearly so optimistic about people. I've
          > talked to a number of people about the project, and the majority of
          > them reject it out of hand. My impression is that they think it can't
          > possibly work, therefore, they are derisive of the idea. I don't
          > really think it's internal conflict, just simple low-grade
          > intellectual bigotry. We are heretics for believing.
          >
          > Kelly
          >

          I actually believe much of the rejection is coming from a choice between
          freedom and convenience. They say "it won't work" because they do not live
          anywhere near the Canadian border, Delaware, Wyoming, or South Dakota, and
          they don't plan to move there.

          Perhaps their reasons are good ones. They may have family commitments. They
          may have jobs with many years invested in them, that are not easily
          uprooted.

          This is why I feel, long-term, that the free state movement needs more than
          one state--perhaps even a group of them. Not for purposes of "competition",
          but for *coalition*. And, primarily, to provide more options for those who
          cannot uproot and easily make a 2000-mile move. I believe there should be a
          free state in every region--one in the Deep South, one in the Northeast, one
          in the Great Plains, and so on.

          Of course it goes without saying that such a thing must wait until after the
          Free State has been chosen by the membership, and some of its goals are
          already being implemented.

          --Kevin Tuma
        • whatawaste30 <whatawaste30@yahoo.com>
          Personally I think attaining 20,000 people would be quite simple. There are 200 million people in the US. Times that by .05% of the vote ( libertarians vote) =
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 26, 2003
            Personally I think attaining 20,000 people would be quite simple.
            There are 200 million people in the US. Times that by .05% of the
            vote ( libertarians vote) = 100 thousand people. Cut that # in half =
            50k, cause only 50% of americans vote. Throw in just as many
            republicans and demacrats that are disgusted with their liberties
            being stripped, and you have 150,000 people that want to move.
            Granted only 20% of them ACTUALLY end up moving, due to the gov.
            scare tactics, location, relatives influence, job market, etc. But
            even at that you still have 30,000 people willing to move.

            I think the % of people willing to move is closer to 30% = 60,000.
            More will come later if everything goes smoothly.

            These people are there for the finding, you just have to look for
            them. Most of them keep to them selves, and are looking for real
            leadership before risking it all.

            All we have to get is 500 people per state to move.....that's
            NOTHING. 20,000 people is .01% of the US population.

            PS...there might be more people in the US. There is atleast 200
            mil..so the more the better:)

            Paul.
          • Wen Shi Di
            ... One large group of libertarians that the FSP project seems to be ignoring are the thousands of PTs that are currently spread all over the world. Many of
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 3, 2003
              At 03:35 PM 2/26/03 -0600, you wrote:
              >I actually believe much of the rejection is coming from a choice between
              >freedom and convenience. They say "it won't work" because they do not live
              >anywhere near the Canadian border, Delaware, Wyoming, or South Dakota, and
              >they don't plan to move there.

              One large group of libertarians that the FSP project seems to be ignoring
              are the thousands of PTs that are currently spread all over the
              world. Many of them are among the most determined sovereign individuals on
              the planet with a great deal of valuable knowledge and experience in
              opposing the system yet they seem to be marginalised for not being US
              voters. If these people have already shown their commitment to the
              libertarian cause by escaping the reaches of the western
              pseudo-democracies, why shouldn't they be welcomed when the free state is
              finally formed? In addition many of them, including myself are
              economically independent and ready to relocate almost immediately. Why do
              I get the feeling that potential participants are only really welcome if
              they are already vote casting US citizens?

              Chris
              GZ

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jan Eiland
              What are PTs? ... From: Wen Shi Di To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 4:48 AM Subject: Re: [FSP] Some observations on human
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 3, 2003
                What are PTs?
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Wen Shi Di
                To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 4:48 AM
                Subject: Re: [FSP] Some observations on human behaviour and the FSP


                One large group of libertarians that the FSP project seems to be ignoring
                are the thousands of PTs that are currently spread all over the
                world.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jeffrey A. Robertson
                I think ignored might be a little strong. Most of us might not be aware of your existence. The people that fought the American Revolution were not all
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 3, 2003
                  I think ignored might be a little strong. Most of us might not be aware
                  of your existence. The people that fought the American Revolution were
                  not all "Americans", but the fight was just and many stuck around. I,
                  for one, would welcome anyone from anywhere who want to help the cause.
                  The more people that know how to live free, the more people who can
                  learn in a shorter period of time.

                  Jeff R.

                  Wen Shi Di wrote:

                  > At 03:35 PM 2/26/03 -0600, you wrote:
                  > >I actually believe much of the rejection is coming from a choice
                  > between
                  > >freedom and convenience. They say "it won't work" because they do not
                  > live
                  > >anywhere near the Canadian border, Delaware, Wyoming, or South
                  > Dakota, and
                  > >they don't plan to move there.
                  >
                  > One large group of libertarians that the FSP project seems to be
                  > ignoring
                  > are the thousands of PTs that are currently spread all over the
                  > world. Many of them are among the most determined sovereign
                  > individuals on
                  > the planet with a great deal of valuable knowledge and experience in
                  > opposing the system yet they seem to be marginalised for not being US
                  > voters. If these people have already shown their commitment to the
                  > libertarian cause by escaping the reaches of the western
                  > pseudo-democracies, why shouldn't they be welcomed when the free state
                  > is
                  > finally formed? In addition many of them, including myself are
                  > economically independent and ready to relocate almost immediately.
                  > Why do
                  > I get the feeling that potential participants are only really welcome
                  > if
                  > they are already vote casting US citizens?
                  >
                  > Chris
                  > GZ
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Jake Witmer
                  I d welcome you, if you re willing to pick up a gat and blast stormtroopers, as they re ramming down my front door.
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 3, 2003
                    I'd welcome you, if you're willing to pick up a gat and blast stormtroopers,
                    as they're ramming down my front door.

                    on 3/3/03 6:48 AM, Wen Shi Di at wenshidi@... wrote:

                    > At 03:35 PM 2/26/03 -0600, you wrote:
                    >> I actually believe much of the rejection is coming from a choice between
                    >> freedom and convenience. They say "it won't work" because they do not live
                    >> anywhere near the Canadian border, Delaware, Wyoming, or South Dakota, and
                    >> they don't plan to move there.
                    >
                    > One large group of libertarians that the FSP project seems to be ignoring
                    > are the thousands of PTs that are currently spread all over the
                    > world. Many of them are among the most determined sovereign individuals on
                    > the planet with a great deal of valuable knowledge and experience in
                    > opposing the system yet they seem to be marginalised for not being US
                    > voters. If these people have already shown their commitment to the
                    > libertarian cause by escaping the reaches of the western
                    > pseudo-democracies, why shouldn't they be welcomed when the free state is
                    > finally formed? In addition many of them, including myself are
                    > economically independent and ready to relocate almost immediately. Why do
                    > I get the feeling that potential participants are only really welcome if
                    > they are already vote casting US citizens?
                    >
                    > Chris
                    > GZ
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > freestateproject-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • Zack Bass <yahoo@world-wide-web.com>
                    ... ignoring ... individuals on ... state is ... Why do ... welcome if ... If the U.S. Government would let them into the country, many of you would ALREADY be
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 4, 2003
                      --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Wen Shi Di <wenshidi@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > One large group of libertarians that the FSP project seems to be
                      ignoring
                      > are the thousands of PTs that are currently spread all over the
                      > world. Many of them are among the most determined sovereign
                      individuals on
                      > the planet with a great deal of valuable knowledge and experience in
                      > opposing the system yet they seem to be marginalised for not being US
                      > voters. If these people have already shown their commitment to the
                      > libertarian cause by escaping the reaches of the western
                      > pseudo-democracies, why shouldn't they be welcomed when the free
                      state is
                      > finally formed? In addition many of them, including myself are
                      > economically independent and ready to relocate almost immediately.
                      Why do
                      > I get the feeling that potential participants are only really
                      welcome if
                      > they are already vote casting US citizens?
                      >

                      If the U.S. Government would let them into the country, many of you
                      would ALREADY be here, although not necessarily voters.

                      As far as we are concerned, you are quite welcome to come and fight
                      for freedom. We are happy to have your support.
                      How are you gonna get past the Border?

                      By the way, what's a PT?
                    • Wen Shi Di
                      ... Sorry, I did not mean to ruffle any feathers ... As I travel I run into more and more people who left the west because of disillusionment. I am sure that
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 5, 2003
                        At 08:13 PM 3/3/03 -0600, Jeff R wrote:
                        >I think ignored might be a little strong.

                        Sorry, I did not mean to ruffle any feathers

                        > Most of us might not be aware
                        >of your existence. The people that fought the American Revolution were
                        >not all "Americans", but the fight was just and many stuck around. I,
                        >for one, would welcome anyone from anywhere who want to help the cause.
                        >The more people that know how to live free, the more people who can
                        >learn in a shorter period of time.

                        As I travel I run into more and more people who left the west because of
                        disillusionment. I am sure that a lot of these people would love to return
                        under the right circumstances and it would be much easier to sell the FSP
                        idea to them than to most Americans who are still subject to the constant
                        brainwashing.

                        At 06:09 PM 3/3/03 -0800, Jan wrote:
                        >What are PTs?

                        Sometimes permanent travellers, sometimes previous taxpayers, sometime
                        perpetual tourists. We follow the five flag theory of George Schulz (at
                        least loosely) based on the assumption that any government always treats
                        visitors from other nations far better than it does its own citizens. Most
                        are also very strong libertarians.

                        At 11:33 PM 3/3/03 -0600, hardcore homesteader wrote:
                        >I'd welcome you, if you're willing to pick up a gat and blast stormtroopers,
                        >as they're ramming down my front door.

                        I am willing as a last option but would much prefer to talk about
                        concealment and camoflage, and maybe even possible escape routes rather
                        than direct confrontation. I do not want to be part of the next Waco.

                        Later At 11:07 PM 3/4/03 +0800, George wrote:
                        Hi Chris,

                        I don't believe that anyone is trying to prevent or discourage foreigners
                        from participating in the FSP. But given that the vast majority of us are
                        here in the US, and that most of the people we know and have worked with
                        politically are in the US, it is only natural that we would tend to look
                        towards those people. I don't believe that many people here would know how
                        to find folks outside the US, there are the language barriers to overcome
                        (since Americans are notoriously unilingual) and so on.

                        I was not thinking about foreigners really just those who have already escaped.
                        I gave up the concept of nationality many years ago. I wonder if the FSP
                        is going to be very "American" or is the fact that this 'free state' is
                        still part of the US simply going to be coincidental?

                        I believe this issue was addressed on some of the FSP groups last fall. As
                        far as I know you all are welcome to come and join the party. We can use
                        all the help we can get.

                        Thanks. Do you know of any other long term expats that have expressed an
                        interest in returning?

                        Chris

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • No Free Lunch
                        ... PT = Perpetual Traveler ... Someone who is not currently Resident of any State or Nation. Interesting tidbit... Resident , as defined by Vattel in The
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 5, 2003
                          >> One large group of libertarians that the FSP project seems to be ignoring
                          >> are the thousands of PTs that are currently spread all over the
                          >> world.

                          > What are PTs?

                          PT = 'Perpetual Traveler'...

                          Someone who is not currently 'Resident' of any State or Nation.

                          Interesting tidbit...

                          'Resident', as defined by Vattel in 'The Law of Nations' means
                          'an *alien* given permission to permanently inhabit a State and
                          engage in business'.

                          Charles
                        • Bill Hartwell
                          ... I had the same question. The only tentative answer I can come up with is Permanent Tourists ? That s just a guess, but it comes from remembering someone
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 5, 2003
                            On Mon, 2003-03-03 at 19:09, Jan Eiland wrote:
                            > What are PTs?
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Wen Shi Di
                            > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 4:48 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [FSP] Some observations on human behaviour and the FSP
                            >
                            >
                            > One large group of libertarians that the FSP project seems to be ignoring
                            > are the thousands of PTs that are currently spread all over the
                            > world.

                            I had the same question. The only tentative answer I can come up with is
                            "Permanent Tourists"?

                            That's just a guess, but it comes from remembering someone else
                            describing himself as a permanent tourist because he'd sold all his real
                            property, moved into a Class A motorhome, and lives wherever he can park
                            it, then moving on when the local anti-freedom laws start to get too
                            irritating.

                            --
                            All private email sent with PGP encryption. Email for key.
                            Homepage: http://www.macmanusnet.net/
                            Freedom in our lifetime: http://www.freestateproject.org
                            Enforce the Bill of Rights: http://www.lneilsmith.com/bor_enforcement.html
                            Gun control: The belief that we should ban guns because people have a
                            "right to feel safe," but the right to feel safe by owning firearms for
                            defense is not valid.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Mykl Meagher
                            ... Mykl= I have been a PT most of my life and am always meeting these types. Few are Americans, but all are looking for a place similiar to what the FSP wants
                            Message 13 of 13 , Mar 7, 2003
                              >"One large group of libertarians that the FSP project seems to be ignoring are the >thousands of PTs that are currently spread all over the world. Many of them are >among the most determined sovereign individuals on the planet with a great deal of >valuable knowledge and experience in opposing the system . . . "

                              Mykl= I have been a PT most of my life and am always meeting these types. Few are Americans, but all are looking for a place similiar to what the FSP wants to build.

                              I wouldn't worry about PTs. I think they will hear about our success fast enough and some will move in with us. Others will support us from a distance. Some may even be trading partners in other countries.

                              About voting. Some PTs will be able to vote and some Westerners may become US citizens just to be able to vote. The ones I'd like to see come are the Asians who would have a hard time getting into the US right now because of visa restraints. These are some of the most industrious free-marketeers you could meet. They aren't looking for a job, they want to be free to make a business. If we want to see our little corner of the world prosper, I think we need to figure out a way to get them (legally)past US immigration and into our state. (20,000 libertarians will be 40,000 entrepreneurs in no time.)



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