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Re: [FSP] The cost of making the move

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  • No Free Lunch
    ... Just curious - to what organizations and or individuals are you referring? Charles
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 3, 2002
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      Kevin wrote:

      > For those few that live their lives "anonymously"? I have no
      > sympathy for then since they are no help to the project
      > anyway, and should be excluded. The project MUST have people
      > that are willing to operate WITHIN the laws of this Country to
      > affect permanent change. To encourage the activities of
      > fringe organizations and individuals within this group
      > jeaopardizes the project as a whole.

      Just curious - to what organizations and or individuals are you
      referring?

      Charles
    • Gold Standard Press
      that s $150,000 that could be spent on marketing.... c. ... From: Kevin To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:30 PM Subject:
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 3, 2002
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        that's $150,000 that could be spent on marketing....

        c.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Kevin
        To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:30 PM
        Subject: [FSP] The cost of making the move


        Good Morning everyone,

        I've been reading the recent posts on how to reduce the potential for
        voter fraud in the selection process, and yet at the same time, make
        the cost of the selection process as low as possible by utilizing
        technology. I may be in the minority here, but it would seem to me
        that in the overall scheme of things, the "cost" of sending in your
        vote should be the least of the concerns.

        Lets assume for a minute that everyone that has signed up is truly
        sincere about relocating to the chosen state. If that is the case,
        then the "cost" of selecting that state is minimal, when compared to
        the cost of selling your home, relocating, finding a job (or starting
        a new business), buying or building a new home, and then investing
        the time, money, and energy necessary to build the kind of political,
        economic, and social environment that we all desire to achieve.

        My personal feeling is that the best way to reduce voter fraud is to
        make it just a little painful. Make certain that those who are
        voting are truly taking the time, and making the effort, to make an
        informed and thoughtful decision. To that end, the "cost" of the
        voting process should be borne by those that are involved with the
        process itself. It is also my feeling that nothing replaces
        the "personal" investment of signing your ballot with your legal
        name. Therefore, I propose the following.

        1. Paper ballots. No electronic media, no faxes.
        2. In order to offset the cost of preparing the ballots and postage
        associated with it. Those who have already registered with the Free
        State Project will be required to send in a fee, say $2 or $3. Upon
        receipt of your "intent to vote" fee, you will be sent out a ballot,
        and an official envelope to return your vote.
        3. Once the ballot is received, you will make your vote, then sign
        it, and have it notarized. The cost for a notary, even in the
        People's Republic of California, is no more than $10.00. Place
        postage on the envelope (if you wish to have a signed reciept, then
        pay the appropriate fee to the Post Office), and place it back in the
        mail.
        4. The Ballot counting committee will open, count, and certify the
        voting, as well as make available the results of the voting.
        5. Since only one ballot, and one envelope, will be sent out to each
        registered member of the project, it can be easily verified the one
        vote per member is recieved and logged.
        6. After the initial round of voting, the top three states should be
        placed on a second (and final) ballot, and the process should be
        repeated so that anyone who opts out of the final states will not
        be "burdened" with making the choice of a state that does not reflect
        their preferences.

        The total "cost" of this process should be no more than $25 or $30
        for both rounds of voting. Certainly anyone that is truly willing
        to "make the move" will be willing to spend that amount to make
        certain that their voice is heard in the balloting process.

        As far as eliminating the potential for voter fraud? Nothing will do
        more to reduce the potential for fraud than to make it costly to
        participate in the fraud. If someone wants to create 4 or 5 illegal
        personalities, and pay the fees for those personalities to vote, then
        make it expensive for him/her to do so. For those few that live
        their lives "anonymously"? I have no sympathy for then since they
        are no help to the project anyway, and should be excluded. The
        project MUST have people that are willing to operate WITHIN the laws
        of this Country to affect permanent change. To encourage the
        activities of fringe organizations and individuals within this group
        jeaopardizes the project as a whole.

        My faith in the project and the people behind the project is based
        upon the verifiable hard work that has been performed to date. I am
        going to make a move within the next 12 - 24 months whether this
        project moves forward or not. For myself, my family, and my future,
        I have already decided that I must leave California for the wide open
        spaces of Wyoming, Montana, or the Dakotas, and my choice has been
        made based upon a significant amount of information that was gathered
        on the main website, as well as my own research.

        Ante up people, and quit trying to nickle and dime this project.
        Freedom, both personal and political, is worth the cost, and the
        effort involved.

        Kevin L. Maevers



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      • Nixi Chesnavich
        2. In order to offset the cost of preparing the ballots and postage associated with it. Those who have already registered with the Free State Project will be
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 3, 2002
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          2. In order to offset the cost of preparing the ballots and postage
          associated with it. Those who have already registered with the Free
          State Project will be required to send in a fee, say $2 or $3. Upon
          receipt of your "intent to vote" fee, you will be sent out a ballot,
          and an official envelope to return your vote.

          My understanding is that the Free State Project cannot assess
          any fees, even a $2 -$3 fee, since from the beginning the Project
          has asserted that it will not require any moneys from its membership.

          Everything must be voluntarily given. That said, I think a request
          for a $5 or more voluntary donation included along with the ballot
          would not be out of line. The donation could be used primarily
          for funding the voting process, with any remaining funds used for
          other administrative costs of the Project.
        • Bob Compton
          ... ... I CHOOSE to live my life anonymously by both strong religious and political convictions. I do not want your sympathy and it is pure
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 3, 2002
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            Good points. I agree with all but one:

            > Good Morning everyone,
            >
            > I've been reading the recent posts on how to reduce the potential for
            <SNIP>
            > As far as eliminating the potential for voter fraud? Nothing will do
            > more to reduce the potential for fraud than to make it costly to
            > participate in the fraud. If someone wants to create 4 or 5 illegal
            > personalities, and pay the fees for those personalities to vote, then
            > make it expensive for him/her to do so. For those few that live
            > their lives "anonymously"? I have no sympathy for then since they are
            > no help to the project anyway, and should be excluded. The
            > project MUST have people that are willing to operate WITHIN the laws
            > of this Country to affect permanent change. To encourage the
            > activities of fringe organizations and individuals within this group
            > jeaopardizes the project as a whole.
            <SNIP>

            I CHOOSE to live my life "anonymously" by both strong religious and
            political convictions. I do not want your "sympathy" and it is pure BS that
            I can be of "no help to the project". I do not mind being excluded from the
            vote of where to move since I've already made up my mind to move to Nevada
            from California since it currently is the ONLY state that does not require a
            SSN to register to vote. Also, I resent the implication that I do not
            "operate WITHIN the laws of this Country". I abide by ALL laws and have
            NEVER been accused or convicted of a crime. I am committed to affecting
            "permanent change" in a peacefull manner until such time as that is no
            longer possible (not by my own decision). FSP does not in any way
            "encourage the activities" I persue and I am NOT a member of any "fringe
            organizations". My participation, by whatever means in no way "jeaopardizes
            (sp) the project as a whole".

            I do not believe it furthers the FSP's goals to shun ANYONE with honerable
            intentions and pure motives. There are WAY more of us without SSNs than you
            can likely imagine. I personally know (not just know of, but KNOW) more
            than 200! Most of whom, once you got to know them, you'd likely be proud to
            call "friend". I know OF at least 8,000 and even government stats indicate
            the number nears 20,000,000. EVERY ONE OF US that has taken the effort to
            live sans Socialist Slavery Number has more initiative and abilities than
            the average "citizen". Embracing us to create a "numberless" society of
            personal responsibility free of governmental nanny-isms could greatly assist
            and accellerate the project.

            Just my $0.02...
          • voodootyke
            Ante up people, and quit trying to nickle and dime this project. Freedom, both personal and political, is worth the cost, and the effort involved. Well said.
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 3, 2002
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              "Ante up people, and quit trying to nickle and dime this project.
              Freedom, both personal and political, is worth the cost, and the
              effort involved."

              Well said.
            • Logic
              ... From: Kevin To: Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:30 PM Subject: [FSP] The cost of making
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 3, 2002
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Kevin" <kevin@...>
                To: <freestateproject@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:30 PM
                Subject: [FSP] The cost of making the move


                > Good Morning everyone,
                >
                > I've been reading the recent posts on how to reduce the potential for
                > voter fraud in the selection process, and yet at the same time, make
                > the cost of the selection process as low as possible by utilizing
                > technology. I may be in the minority here, but it would seem to me
                > that in the overall scheme of things, the "cost" of sending in your
                > vote should be the least of the concerns.

                I agree on this point. Introducing arbitrary barriers to participation, such
                as cost and effort, will weed out those who are not serious about
                relocating. This is a fine way to screen slackers from the processes of the
                FSP.

                The proposal to leverage technology was really just a suggestion to address
                potential fraud, and to make it easier for people to participate in the
                process. Clearly making participation easier presents its own problems, such
                as allowing half-hearted, self-proclaimed porcupines to influence the
                outcome on the vote for which state to move to.

                I wonder, though, how effective this barrier to participation will be as
                more and more official FSP issues present themselves. Will these issues
                never see an opportunity for a vote by participating members, simply because
                the process is to costly and cumbersome?

                > For those few that live
                > their lives "anonymously"? I have no sympathy for then since they
                > are no help to the project anyway, and should be excluded. The
                > project MUST have people that are willing to operate WITHIN the laws
                > of this Country to affect permanent change. To encourage the
                > activities of fringe organizations and individuals within this group
                > jeaopardizes the project as a whole.

                Whether there is no sympathy for those few that live their lives anonymously
                or not has no bearing on an anonymous vote. I believe that an anonymous vote
                is the vanguard of any democratic process.

                *Who* votes is not important. Their *past* is not important. What's
                important is that a group of living, thinking human beings have agreed to
                acheive political ends through a peaceful, democratic process.

                Any process that divulges how a particular individual votes (esp. in the
                context of a government inspecting the vote) may pollute the process. The
                FSP is the very last place I would expect oppressive policies from the
                leadership. Just because we trust the leadership does not mean they should
                be burdened (empowered) with the ability to inspect how members voted on a
                particular issue --much less exposing an individual's voting decisions to
                ALL COMERS. Good people should be protected from bad people through
                anonymity.

                If, thirty years from now, things don't turn out the way we want, who will
                have access to our individual voting records? How might those decisions be
                held against us?

                We MUST have anonymity in the process!
              • Brian Murray
                On Tuesday 03 December 2002 12:30 pm, Kevin wrote: ... It can be made painful and cheap. ... ... ... ... ...
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 3, 2002
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                  On Tuesday 03 December 2002 12:30 pm, Kevin wrote:
                  <snip>
                  >
                  > My personal feeling is that the best way to reduce voter fraud is to
                  > make it just a little painful. Make certain that those who are
                  <snip>

                  It can be made 'painful' and cheap.

                  > 1. Paper ballots. No electronic media, no faxes.
                  > 2. In order to offset the cost of preparing the ballots and postage
                  <snip>
                  > 3. Once the ballot is received, you will make your vote, then sign
                  <snip>
                  > 4. The Ballot counting committee will open, count, and certify the
                  <snip>
                  > 5. Since only one ballot, and one envelope, will be sent out to each
                  <snip>
                  > 6. After the initial round of voting, the top three states should be
                  <snip>
                  > The total "cost" of this process should be no more than $25 or $30
                  <snip>
                  > more to reduce the potential for fraud than to make it costly to
                  <snip>
                  > make it expensive for him/her to do so. For those few that live
                  > their lives "anonymously"? I have no sympathy for then since they
                  > are no help to the project anyway, and should be excluded. The
                  <snip>
                  > activities of fringe organizations and individuals within this group
                  > jeaopardizes the project as a whole.

                  Are you serious are are you trolling? Make it lengthy, expensive, complex,
                  layered with paperwork and with no allowances for anyone not keen on
                  submitting three forms of identification and a blood sample? Fringe
                  organizations? Individuals? Evils, those, eh? Better to stick with the
                  mainstream and the status quo? Make it all better by doing it all the same?
                  We wouldn't want to get radical or revolutionary, right? Play it safe?
                  Middle of the road?

                  The FSP is of interest to me because I want to live someplace where
                  government isn't intrusive, invasive or obstructive and life, liberty and the
                  pursuit of happiness do not require wading through red tape or bearing its
                  cost. If what the FSP does it does no better than the government where I
                  already live, what reason is there to believe that it's anything more than a
                  waste of time and money? And even in just stating its goals it's already a
                  'fringe organization' very much about 'individuals.'

                  <snip>
                  >
                  > Ante up people, and quit trying to nickle and dime this project.
                  > Freedom, both personal and political, is worth the cost, and the
                  > effort involved.

                  When the cost is freedom, the effort is irrelevant. Increasing cost,
                  complexity and invasiveness in the pursuit of freedom is akin to increasing
                  caloric intake in the pursuit of weight loss.

                  --
                  The law will never make men free; it is men who have got to make the law free.
                  -- Henry David Thoreau
                • voodootyke
                  ... that ... costs might ... become ... There isn t much reason to vote in the first place? Jason please explain how you come up with that. While I respect
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 3, 2002
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                    --- In freestateproject@y..., Jason P Sorens <jason.sorens@y...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > The only problem I see with making voting intentionally costly is
                    that
                    > there isn't much reason to vote in the first place, so adding
                    costs might
                    > discourage people from voting even if they plan to participate and
                    become
                    > activists.


                    There isn't much reason to vote in the first place? Jason please
                    explain how you come up with that.

                    While I respect your opinion, it seems to me that anybody worth the
                    ink they took up on the FSP membership list would feel the exact
                    opposite. That their vote for the free state is very important and
                    necessary.


                    I can imagine a few hundred people (out of 5000) thinking
                    > along the following lines: "Out of 5000 voters, my vote is not
                    going to
                    > make a difference anyway. And they want me to go down to the bank
                    and
                    > get this notarized and then mail it? Harumph! It's not worth my
                    time!"


                    So what? Let's say there are a few people who think that way. Do you
                    honestly expect a person who thinks that way to pack up there life,
                    their children, change jobs, pay the cost of moving, and move to
                    another state and become an activist? Without voting?

                    It seems to me that sacrificing the integrity of our collective vote
                    for an unknown few people who don't believe voting is important
                    anyway, is anathema to me.


                    > It's not that these people aren't dedicated activists; they just
                    don't see
                    > this as worthwhile if their costly participation isn't going to
                    affect
                    > anything.

                    I think of what the FSP is attempting to do and wonder what somebody
                    who wouldn't take the time to vote for a free state would take the
                    time to do for the FSP cause. I'm drawing a blank.

                    Then I think about all the dedicated activist that I have met or
                    heard aout and I can't recall one who considered voting for their
                    cause as not worth their effort.


                    Sure, we could lay a guilt trip on them: "you're not a real
                    > activist unless you vote!" But that approach might just backfire
                    & come
                    > off as too controlling.
                    >


                    Why would you put it that way in the first place? Why even talk in
                    terms of guilt trips? Or take any accusatory approaches?

                    We would be asking each other to put in a little effort to ensure
                    the integrity of the most important vote of our lives. Period.

                    No guilt trips. No accusations. No insinuations.



                    > Note also that we can't require a fee paid to the FSP for voters.
                    That
                    > would be a required contribution for membership in contravention
                    of the
                    > Participation Guidelines.
                    >


                    Personally I would not ask for a fee. it's unnecessary and gets into
                    questions about fleecing when the real issue is vote integrity.



                    > Remember again that vote fraud is a very limited problem and is
                    easy for
                    > us to combat.


                    Do you have statistics on totally open internet voting to back that
                    up or is it your impression that it is a limited problem?



                    If 3 or more signers have the same address and all cast
                    > ballots, we can examine the signatures and then call them to
                    verify their
                    > identity. At most this will be a few dozen people.


                    Not only is that totally contravene-able but it is based on a high
                    amount of subjectivity and invades privacy. The approach that a few
                    like Mr./Miss. Logic outlined is far more secure, far less
                    subjectively based and far less invasive.
                  • RavenBlack
                    ... Though this method holds only if all blank ballot sheets are mailed - no collecting your ballot sheet by internet, as that would remove what security
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 3, 2002
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                      >Remember again that vote fraud is a very limited problem and is easy for
                      >us to combat. If 3 or more signers have the same address and all cast
                      >ballots, we can examine the signatures and then call them to verify their
                      >identity. At most this will be a few dozen people.

                      Though this method holds only if all blank ballot sheets are mailed -
                      no collecting your ballot sheet by internet, as that would remove what
                      security unique addresses provides. You could still accept the incoming
                      votes by fax/scanned email, but the voters' addresses would only be known
                      valid if the ballots were sent - with some sort of unique confirmation
                      code upon the ballot - to each address. (Unique confirmation codes
                      could be easily generated as a hash of the address, or just assign
                      a code to each signed-up participant in your database before you
                      send out the ballots.)

                      --RavenBlack
                    • Eric C Williams
                      ... Insanity . . . Continuing to do the same things and expecting different results. --Albert Einstein ... This exactly what interests me as well. I don t
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 3, 2002
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                        Brian Murray wrote:

                        >On Tuesday 03 December 2002 12:30 pm, Kevin wrote:
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >>My personal feeling is that the best way to reduce voter fraud is to
                        >>make it just a little painful. Make certain that those who are
                        >>
                        >>
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >It can be made 'painful' and cheap.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>1. Paper ballots. No electronic media, no faxes.
                        >>2. In order to offset the cost of preparing the ballots and postage
                        >>
                        >>
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >>3. Once the ballot is received, you will make your vote, then sign
                        >>
                        >>
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >>4. The Ballot counting committee will open, count, and certify the
                        >>
                        >>
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >>5. Since only one ballot, and one envelope, will be sent out to each
                        >>
                        >>
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >>6. After the initial round of voting, the top three states should be
                        >>
                        >>
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >>The total "cost" of this process should be no more than $25 or $30
                        >>
                        >>
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >>more to reduce the potential for fraud than to make it costly to
                        >>
                        >>
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >>make it expensive for him/her to do so. For those few that live
                        >>their lives "anonymously"? I have no sympathy for then since they
                        >>are no help to the project anyway, and should be excluded. The
                        >>
                        >>
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >>activities of fringe organizations and individuals within this group
                        >>jeaopardizes the project as a whole.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >Are you serious are are you trolling? Make it lengthy, expensive, complex,
                        >layered with paperwork and with no allowances for anyone not keen on
                        >submitting three forms of identification and a blood sample? Fringe
                        >organizations? Individuals? Evils, those, eh? Better to stick with the
                        >mainstream and the status quo? Make it all better by doing it all the same?
                        >We wouldn't want to get radical or revolutionary, right? Play it safe?
                        >Middle of the road?
                        >
                        >

                        "Insanity . . . Continuing to do the same things and expecting different
                        results."

                        --Albert Einstein



                        >The FSP is of interest to me because I want to live someplace where
                        >government isn't intrusive, invasive or obstructive and life, liberty and the
                        >pursuit of happiness do not require wading through red tape or bearing its
                        >cost. If what the FSP does it does no better than the government where I
                        >already live, what reason is there to believe that it's anything more than a
                        >waste of time and money? And even in just stating its goals it's already a
                        >'fringe organization' very much about 'individuals.'
                        >
                        This exactly what interests me as well. I don't care to be a member of
                        a club, or build a new
                        political party. I want to live somewhere free and I want my vote to
                        effect real change.
                        The bill of rights and the spirit of our constitution is near perfect.
                        Let's strip away the garbage
                        that has been cast upon it over the years by bureaucrats and live free
                        again. You don't do that by
                        creating your own personal layers of red tape.

                        >
                        ><snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >>Ante up people, and quit trying to nickle and dime this project.
                        >>Freedom, both personal and political, is worth the cost, and the
                        >>effort involved.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >When the cost is freedom, the effort is irrelevant. Increasing cost,
                        >complexity and invasiveness in the pursuit of freedom is akin to increasing
                        >caloric intake in the pursuit of weight loss.
                        >
                        Agreed! So the first thing to do when in search for liberty is impose
                        regulations ? ;-)
                        Bureaucracy is what I am trying to leave behind.

                        Jason also makes a good point, in that an election that is not anonymous
                        and frankly rather small, will be be fairly easy to validate.

                        Freedom for all (that can pay the $25 fee) . Sure freedom is valuable, but
                        let's not leave bureaucracy only to create our own brand and charge for it.

                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • motie_d
                        ... Can I make a guess? He means non-Democrats, I think. LOL No one who can t prove that they are politically correct need apply? Gosh, you just crack me up.
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                          --- In freestateproject@y..., No Free Lunch <tanstaafl_bh@n...> wrote:
                          > Kevin wrote:
                          >
                          > > For those few that live their lives "anonymously"? I have no
                          > > sympathy for then since they are no help to the project
                          > > anyway, and should be excluded. The project MUST have people
                          > > that are willing to operate WITHIN the laws of this Country to
                          > > affect permanent change. To encourage the activities of
                          > > fringe organizations and individuals within this group
                          > > jeaopardizes the project as a whole.
                          >
                          > Just curious - to what organizations and or individuals are you
                          > referring?
                          >
                          > Charles

                          Can I make a guess? He means non-Democrats, I think. LOL No one who
                          can't prove that they are politically correct need apply?

                          Gosh, you just crack me up. What a sense of humor!
                          Motie
                        • RavenBlack
                          ... I would second Jason s suggestion there. It s the usual democracy thing - with 5000 people voting, one vote for Alaska isn t going to make a jot of
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                            >There isn't much reason to vote in the first place? Jason please
                            >explain how you come up with that.

                            I would second Jason's suggestion there. It's the usual democracy
                            thing - with 5000 people voting, one vote for Alaska isn't going
                            to make a jot of difference - I quite believe that a majority of
                            the voters will have Alaska as their least favourite. Thus it
                            wouldn't be worth making an effort to vote for it. Aside from
                            which, I'm not really that bothered which state I'm moving to,
                            so again, hardly seems worth voting.

                            >While I respect your opinion, it seems to me that anybody worth the
                            >ink they took up on the FSP membership list would feel the exact
                            >opposite. That their vote for the free state is very important and
                            >necessary.

                            I hope your opinion there is changed by the two examples I embody
                            - not really minding which state wins, and slightly favouring one
                            that has no chance of winning. There's not even the "making a
                            statement" point to voting that the Libertarian party generally
                            relies upon.

                            >So what? Let's say there are a few people who think that way. Do you
                            >honestly expect a person who thinks that way to pack up there life,
                            >their children, change jobs, pay the cost of moving, and move to
                            >another state and become an activist? Without voting?

                            Given that I've just stated my lackadaisical attitude towards the
                            vote, are you suggesting that I wouldn't pack up and move? I've
                            done it for love, I've done it for a job, but I wouldn't do it to
                            escape the growing governmental oppression? Gee, thanks.

                            >It seems to me that sacrificing the integrity of our collective
                            >vote for an unknown few people who don't believe voting is
                            >important anyway, is anathema to me.

                            I don't think anyone has suggested sacrificing the vote's integrity.
                            The suggestions are generally more along the lines of "let's not go
                            completely overboard with requiring insane technology". It's been
                            suggested that I was pushing technology for its own sake, earlier;
                            these recent suggestions are far more crazily technophilic than I
                            ever was.

                            >I think of what the FSP is attempting to do and wonder what somebody
                            >who wouldn't take the time to vote for a free state would take the
                            >time to do for the FSP cause. I'm drawing a blank.

                            It's not about voting for a free state, though, is it? It's about
                            voting for *which* free state. There'll be one, all going well,
                            whether the vote is cast or not.

                            To answer your hypothetical question, a couple of hours trawling
                            for information (for the fsp-publicity group), some advertising,
                            and changing abode are amongst the things that somebody who wouldn't
                            take the time to vote would take the time to do.

                            >Then I think about all the dedicated activist that I have met or
                            >heard aout and I can't recall one who considered voting for their
                            >cause as not worth their effort.

                            Again, it's not "voting for the cause", it's "voting for a minor
                            directional choice within the cause". A rather different beast.

                            >>If 3 or more signers have the same address and all cast
                            >> ballots, we can examine the signatures and then call them to
                            >>verify their identity. At most this will be a few dozen people.
                            >
                            >Not only is that totally contravene-able

                            Contravene-able by registering a whole bunch of PO-Boxes, perhaps,
                            but that would be fairly obvious. Using friends' addresses, maybe,
                            but getting a whole bunch of key-floppies from a distribution point
                            would be just as easy, and more difficult to detect.

                            I think validation by phone for those with phones and by mail for
                            those without would provide adequate security. Much as I would
                            like to see a technology-based solution, I'm pretty sure that's
                            not going to happen, and for quite sound reasons.

                            >but it is based on a high
                            >amount of subjectivity and invades privacy. The approach that a few
                            >like Mr./Miss. Logic outlined is far more secure, far less
                            >subjectively based and far less invasive.

                            In my position, it would be easier to work around the key-floppies
                            than the address/phone verification. "Less subjectively based"
                            isn't necessarily a good thing - a little subjectivity allows for
                            finding fraud where it's not entirely obvious. And less invasive?
                            The FSP already knows my address, and signatures are required all
                            over the place. Making me leave my home to go to an arbitrary
                            location that I'm not familiar with to pick something up from
                            someone I don't know, using public transport since I don't drive
                            - now *that* is invasive.

                            --RavenBlack
                          • motie_d
                            ... any fringe ... way jeaopardizes ... LOL again. Some people may think that this Project is a Fringe organization . It certainly isn t up to Mainstream
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                              --- In freestateproject@y..., "Bob Compton" <bobc@v...> wrote:

                              <<<<<<BIG SNIP>>>>>>

                              > FSP does not in any way
                              > "encourage the activities" I persue and I am NOT a member of
                              any "fringe
                              > organizations". My participation, by whatever means in no
                              way "jeaopardizes
                              > (sp) the project as a whole".
                              >

                              LOL again. Some people may think that this Project is a 'Fringe
                              organization'. It certainly isn't up to 'Mainstream' is it?
                              Does this mean that anyone who has signed up is going to be
                              discouraged from participation by our Democratic friend?

                              Sometimes that subtle humor can be tricky to catch! I bet some people
                              even thought he was serious.

                              Motie
                            • voodootyke
                              ... You re not bothered to which state you re moving to? There s no difference between the states? Am I to understand that because you deduced by some unseen
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                --- In freestateproject@y..., RavenBlack <raven@r...> wrote:
                                > >There isn't much reason to vote in the first place? Jason please
                                > >explain how you come up with that.
                                >
                                > I would second Jason's suggestion there. It's the usual democracy
                                > thing - with 5000 people voting, one vote for Alaska isn't going
                                > to make a jot of difference - I quite believe that a majority of
                                > the voters will have Alaska as their least favourite. Thus it
                                > wouldn't be worth making an effort to vote for it. Aside from
                                > which, I'm not really that bothered which state I'm moving to,
                                > so again, hardly seems worth voting.



                                You're not bothered to which state you're moving to? There's no
                                difference between the states? Am I to understand that because you
                                deduced by some unseen means that your state (AK?) is not going to
                                win, you won't bother voting altogether? No second choice raven?
                                Let me ask you, do you think there is any validity or worth in the
                                raging debates about the differences between the state and how each
                                one can affect the Free state project overall and our lives
                                specifically? Do you think it's all much ado about nothing?

                                I can't disagree more. The state debate is the most crucial issue
                                facing us all today. The state decision will make the difference
                                between success for the FSP in 5 years, success in 20 years or
                                complete and utter failure. I commend you on your ability to not
                                care about which state is chosen but I, my wife, and my kids do
                                care. We care immensely. And I suspect I'm not the only one here who
                                feels this way.


                                >
                                > >While I respect your opinion, it seems to me that anybody worth
                                the
                                > >ink they took up on the FSP membership list would feel the exact
                                > >opposite. That their vote for the free state is very important
                                and
                                > >necessary.
                                >
                                > I hope your opinion there is changed by the two examples I embody
                                > - not really minding which state wins, and slightly favouring one
                                > that has no chance of winning. There's not even the "making a
                                > statement" point to voting that the Libertarian party generally
                                > relies upon.
                                >


                                No your example has done nothing of the sort. If anything, it
                                reminds me how cavalierly some people are inclined to take things
                                and this endeavor is no different it seems. It makes me wonder what
                                the rammifications of that are. I don't have an answer but it is a
                                disturbing.



                                > >So what? Let's say there are a few people who think that way. Do
                                you
                                > >honestly expect a person who thinks that way to pack up there
                                life,
                                > >their children, change jobs, pay the cost of moving, and move to
                                > >another state and become an activist? Without voting?
                                >
                                > Given that I've just stated my lackadaisical attitude towards the
                                > vote, are you suggesting that I wouldn't pack up and move? I've
                                > done it for love, I've done it for a job, but I wouldn't do it to
                                > escape the growing governmental oppression? Gee, thanks.
                                >
                                >


                                No, I'm suggesting that lackadaisical attitudes comes with real
                                dangers when it comes to building a new life for oneself and his or
                                her families. I'm saying that this effort demands careful thought
                                and hard decisions and that no great effort that I can recall was
                                ever executed with lackadaisical attitudes.



                                >It seems to me that sacrificing the integrity of our collective
                                > >vote for an unknown few people who don't believe voting is
                                > >important anyway, is anathema to me.
                                >
                                > I don't think anyone has suggested sacrificing the vote's
                                integrity.
                                > The suggestions are generally more along the lines of "let's not go
                                > completely overboard with requiring insane technology".


                                Just putting this into perspective here, going overboard for you
                                seems to be bothering to vote if you suspect your state won't win. I
                                repeat, this is about ensuring a modicum vote integrity. We don't
                                need insane technology and we don't need to invade privacy. What we
                                do need though is a little willingness to take an extra step or two
                                in order to get that. Assuming of course, that you believe that your
                                vote is worth casting in the first place.



                                It's been
                                > suggested that I was pushing technology for its own sake, earlier;
                                > these recent suggestions are far more crazily technophilic than I
                                > ever was.
                                >

                                I missed what you were pushing and you never did say if you were
                                pushing it for technology's sake. So no comment.



                                > >I think of what the FSP is attempting to do and wonder what
                                somebody
                                > >who wouldn't take the time to vote for a free state would take
                                the
                                > >time to do for the FSP cause. I'm drawing a blank.
                                >
                                > It's not about voting for a free state, though, is it? It's about
                                > voting for *which* free state. There'll be one, all going well,
                                > whether the vote is cast or not.


                                You make it sound like it's simply a choice of apples in a fruit
                                stand. If only that were true, we wouldn't need the FSP to begin
                                with.

                                Do you think there is no difference between universities and the
                                education they offer?
                                Do you think there is no difference between hospitals and the health
                                care they offer?
                                Do you think there is no difference between retirement homes and the
                                caring they offer to your parents?
                                Do you think there is no difference between financial institutions
                                and the investing services they offer?
                                Do you think there is no difference between law firms and the
                                services they offer?

                                Fathom states and governments and al they comprise. Lets' just say
                                we see things different.



                                >
                                > To answer your hypothetical question, a couple of hours trawling
                                > for information (for the fsp-publicity group), some advertising,
                                > and changing abode are amongst the things that somebody who
                                wouldn't
                                > take the time to vote would take the time to do.
                                >


                                Anybody can trawl a couple of hours sure. It's not as if it's high
                                demand low supply work. All of us can advertise in different ways,
                                and in different capacities. You don't even have to be a member to
                                do that for the FSP. All of us who are voting for a free state are
                                at the very least, expected to change abodes at some point after the
                                vote so nothing profound there either.
                                The question you seem to be trying to answer is how many off those
                                who don't think voting for a free state is important, or who would
                                find voting for a free state to much of a hassle if it required a
                                little extra step or two, would pack up and go to the chosen free
                                state anyway. Beside trawling and doing some publicity, I'm not
                                convinced from what you've offered as an argument, that there are
                                many who would personally choose not to have any say in where they
                                will be living in the future.



                                > >Then I think about all the dedicated activist that I have met or
                                > >heard aout and I can't recall one who considered voting for their
                                > >cause as not worth their effort.
                                >
                                > Again, it's not "voting for the cause", it's "voting for a minor
                                > directional choice within the cause". A rather different beast.
                                >


                                A minor choice - yup I got that. :)



                                > >>If 3 or more signers have the same address and all cast
                                > >> ballots, we can examine the signatures and then call them to
                                > >>verify their identity. At most this will be a few dozen people.
                                > >
                                > >Not only is that totally contravene-able
                                >
                                > Contravene-able by registering a whole bunch of PO-Boxes, perhaps,
                                > but that would be fairly obvious. Using friends' addresses, maybe,
                                > but getting a whole bunch of key-floppies from a distribution
                                point
                                > would be just as easy, and more difficult to detect.
                                >


                                Don't follow. Please explain how.



                                > I think validation by phone for those with phones and by mail for
                                > those without would provide adequate security. Much as I would
                                > like to see a technology-based solution, I'm pretty sure that's
                                > not going to happen, and for quite sound reasons.
                                >


                                Oh I am almost certain it won't happen and for reasons that have
                                nothing to do with validity.
                              • motie_d
                                ... and ... Likely the same way I did. I m sick of the bickering about HOW to vote. I ll tell you how I intend to vote, and leave it to you whether or not it s
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                  --- In freestateproject@y..., voodootyke <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > --- In freestateproject@y..., Jason P Sorens <jason.sorens@y...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > The only problem I see with making voting intentionally costly is
                                  > that
                                  > > there isn't much reason to vote in the first place, so adding
                                  > costs might
                                  > > discourage people from voting even if they plan to participate
                                  and
                                  > become
                                  > > activists.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > There isn't much reason to vote in the first place? Jason please
                                  > explain how you come up with that.

                                  Likely the same way I did. I'm sick of the bickering about HOW to
                                  vote. I'll tell you how I intend to vote, and leave it to you whether
                                  or not it's acceptable. Are you ready for it? Do you want it
                                  anonymous for safety? Then scoll down and delete my name before
                                  reading any further. I intend to move to whichever of the western
                                  States is chosen. If an eastern State is chosen, I will likely move
                                  to either Montana or So Dak.
                                  There you have my vote. Do with it what you will. It is the only vote
                                  I intend to submit. Don't bother to call my house to confirm it. If
                                  you want a paper ballot, print it out.
                                  >
                                  > While I respect your opinion, it seems to me that anybody worth the
                                  > ink they took up on the FSP membership list would feel the exact
                                  > opposite. That their vote for the free state is very important and
                                  > necessary.

                                  The vote isn't about whether or not we support Freedom. It is simply
                                  to decide in which State the first effort will be made. That decision
                                  is irrelevant to me.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I can imagine a few hundred people (out of 5000) thinking
                                  > > along the following lines: "Out of 5000 voters, my vote is not
                                  > going to
                                  > > make a difference anyway. And they want me to go down to the
                                  bank
                                  > and
                                  > > get this notarized and then mail it? Harumph! It's not worth my
                                  > time!"
                                  >
                                  Exactly my point. I won't participate in a vote on what color you
                                  should paint your house when you get there either. It doesn't amtter
                                  to me, and I won't spend any time or effort complying with any voting
                                  scheme you come up with, or worrying about whether the voting was
                                  rigged.
                                  >
                                  > So what? Let's say there are a few people who think that way. Do
                                  you
                                  > honestly expect a person who thinks that way to pack up there life,
                                  > their children, change jobs, pay the cost of moving, and move to
                                  > another state and become an activist? Without voting?

                                  I'm not waiting to become an activist. Are you? I intend to move to
                                  another State where my efforts have a better chance of success. If
                                  the members here choose a State that is acceptale to me, that's even
                                  better and I'll use that info to affect my personal choice.
                                  >
                                  > It seems to me that sacrificing the integrity of our collective
                                  vote
                                  > for an unknown few people who don't believe voting is important
                                  > anyway, is anathema to me.

                                  Your worrying about the integrity of the vote is a bogus argument.
                                  Look over the info provided, and make some personal decisions on how
                                  you personally rank the States. Opt out of any you don't like. Then
                                  either vote or don't. Once the State is chosen, either move to it or
                                  don't. If someone were to waste a bunch of their time to 'rig' the
                                  vote, does it really matter? If you only have one favorite State, opt
                                  out of all the rest of them and quit whining. No one is going to
                                  force you to move to someplace you don't want to go. If we have to
                                  kidnap people against their Will, I predict the Group will fail.
                                  Voluntary participants are what we need, not a bunch of crybabies who
                                  think they may be forced into something against their Will because of
                                  a 'rigged' vote.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > It's not that these people aren't dedicated activists; they just
                                  > don't see
                                  > > this as worthwhile if their costly participation isn't going to
                                  > affect
                                  > > anything.
                                  >
                                  > I think of what the FSP is attempting to do and wonder what
                                  somebody
                                  > who wouldn't take the time to vote for a free state would take the
                                  > time to do for the FSP cause. I'm drawing a blank.

                                  I think I explained myself above. If it needs repeating, scroll up!
                                  >
                                  > Then I think about all the dedicated activist that I have met or
                                  > heard aout and I can't recall one who considered voting for their
                                  > cause as not worth their effort.

                                  We aren't voting for our cause, or against it. We are simply trying
                                  to determine where people's preferences are.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Sure, we could lay a guilt trip on them: "you're not a real
                                  > > activist unless you vote!" But that approach might just backfire
                                  > & come
                                  > > off as too controlling.

                                  Or as a totally irrelevant point, and a distraction from our goal.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Why would you put it that way in the first place? Why even talk in
                                  > terms of guilt trips? Or take any accusatory approaches?
                                  >
                                  > We would be asking each other to put in a little effort to ensure
                                  > the integrity of the most important vote of our lives. Period.
                                  >
                                  > No guilt trips. No accusations. No insinuations.

                                  Thank God for that last part. I was beginning to think you were
                                  insinuating that 'the vote' was the most important part of your life.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > If 3 or more signers have the same address and all cast
                                  > > ballots, we can examine the signatures and then call them to
                                  > verify their
                                  > > identity. At most this will be a few dozen people.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Not only is that totally contravene-able but it is based on a high
                                  > amount of subjectivity and invades privacy. The approach that a few
                                  > like Mr./Miss. Logic outlined is far more secure, far less
                                  > subjectively based and far less invasive.

                                  I still think you're chasing a Strawman. Those too timid to trust the
                                  voting procedures are likely to be too timid to move without a
                                  government Permit anyway.
                                  "Oh my Gosh! What if the government finds out I moved out of State?"

                                  Motie
                                • No Free Lunch
                                  ... And I believe just the opposite. Please spare me the arguments, as I have heard them all before. Anyone who is afraid for everyone else to know where
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                    Logic wrote:

                                    > Whether there is no sympathy for those few that live their lives anonymously
                                    > or not has no bearing on an anonymous vote. I believe that an anonymous vote
                                    > is the vanguard of any democratic process.

                                    And I believe just the opposite.

                                    Please spare me the arguments, as I have heard them all before.

                                    Anyone who is 'afraid' for everyone else to know where they stand
                                    is a coward, imnsho.

                                    > *Who* votes is not important. Their *past* is not important. What's
                                    > important is that a group of living, thinking human beings have agreed to
                                    > acheive political ends through a peaceful, democratic process.

                                    Dumbocracy is the very worst form of government there is,
                                    although I agree that *some* democratic *principles* (using votes
                                    to determine certain issues) is the only viable method available
                                    to us - as long as everyone knows and agrees with the principle
                                    that my Rights are not subject to the fickle whim of 'the majority'.

                                    > Any process that divulges how a particular individual votes (esp. in the
                                    > context of a government inspecting the vote) may pollute the process. The
                                    > FSP is the very last place I would expect oppressive policies from the
                                    > leadership. Just because we trust the leadership does not mean they should
                                    > be burdened (empowered) with the ability to inspect how members voted on a
                                    > particular issue --much less exposing an individual's voting decisions to
                                    > ALL COMERS. Good people should be protected from bad people through
                                    > anonymity.

                                    Lol! good people should be proteced from bad people by Smith &
                                    Wesson, or Glock, Inc, or H&K, or some other protective agency,
                                    and as a last resort, by their local Sherrif and/or court system.

                                    > If, thirty years from now, things don't turn out the way we want, who will
                                    > have access to our individual voting records? How might those decisions be
                                    > held against us?
                                    >
                                    > We MUST have anonymity in the process!

                                    What we must *not* do is succomb to fear-mongering and wimpy
                                    attitudes.

                                    Charles
                                  • Jason P Sorens
                                    ... No, it s not going to be anonymous - the Guidelines require that all ballots be made public, to counter any accusations of vote-fixing. After a reasonable
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                      On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Logic wrote:

                                      > If, thirty years from now, things don't turn out the way we want, who will
                                      > have access to our individual voting records? How might those decisions be
                                      > held against us?
                                      >
                                      > We MUST have anonymity in the process!

                                      No, it's not going to be anonymous - the Guidelines require that all
                                      ballots be made public, to counter any accusations of vote-fixing. After
                                      a reasonable period of time, the list of votes cast will be deleted.

                                      ___________________________________________________________________________

                                      Jason P Sorens - jason.sorensATyale.edu - <http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35>

                                      <http://www.freestateproject.org> - Do you want liberty in your lifetime?
                                    • Jason P Sorens
                                      ... Yes - I think there will be people out there who think the same way as Brian. If we make the process intentionally cumbersome, they re not going to vote,
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                        On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, voodootyke wrote:

                                        > I can imagine a few hundred people (out of 5000) thinking
                                        > > along the following lines: "Out of 5000 voters, my vote is not
                                        > going to
                                        > > make a difference anyway. And they want me to go down to the bank
                                        > and
                                        > > get this notarized and then mail it? Harumph! It's not worth my
                                        > time!"
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > So what? Let's say there are a few people who think that way. Do you
                                        > honestly expect a person who thinks that way to pack up there life,
                                        > their children, change jobs, pay the cost of moving, and move to
                                        > another state and become an activist? Without voting?

                                        Yes - I think there will be people out there who think the same way as
                                        Brian. If we make the process intentionally cumbersome, they're not going to vote, not because they're lazy or noncommittal, but because they're offended by the red tape and don't think they should have to do it.

                                        > > Remember again that vote fraud is a very limited problem and is
                                        > easy for
                                        > > us to combat.
                                        >
                                        > Do you have statistics on totally open internet voting to back that
                                        > up or is it your impression that it is a limited problem?

                                        It's simple logic: to engage in vote fraud you'll need to get multiple
                                        ballots mailed to the same address (snail or e-mail - actually, you could
                                        get multiple e-mail accounts set up, but then you'd have to make up
                                        different snailmail addresses, and we'll be checking all of them for
                                        authenticity - this may be a reason for going back to snailmailing out all
                                        the ballots though...). We can check that.

                                        > If 3 or more signers have the same address and all cast
                                        > > ballots, we can examine the signatures and then call them to
                                        > verify their
                                        > > identity. At most this will be a few dozen people.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Not only is that totally contravene-able but it is based on a high
                                        > amount of subjectivity and invades privacy. The approach that a few
                                        > like Mr./Miss. Logic outlined is far more secure, far less
                                        > subjectively based and far less invasive.

                                        No, it's just not possible. Renting out convention rooms, setting up
                                        computers, distributing keys? The whole thing costs thousands of dollars
                                        and requires people to drive long distances. All because we're worried
                                        about a few potential fraudsters whom it is easy to root out. It's an
                                        ingenious proposal, but it doesn't make sense.

                                        ___________________________________________________________________________

                                        Jason P Sorens - jason.sorensATyale.edu - <http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35>

                                        <http://www.freestateproject.org> - Do you want liberty in your lifetime?
                                      • Jason P Sorens
                                        ... Yes, that s a good point; maybe we should go back to snail-mailing all ballots. If we were to e-mail some ballots, we d have to check the authenticity of
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                          On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, RavenBlack wrote:

                                          > >Remember again that vote fraud is a very limited problem and is easy for
                                          > >us to combat. If 3 or more signers have the same address and all cast
                                          > >ballots, we can examine the signatures and then call them to verify their
                                          > >identity. At most this will be a few dozen people.
                                          >
                                          > Though this method holds only if all blank ballot sheets are mailed -
                                          > no collecting your ballot sheet by internet, as that would remove what
                                          > security unique addresses provides. You could still accept the incoming
                                          > votes by fax/scanned email, but the voters' addresses would only be known
                                          > valid if the ballots were sent - with some sort of unique confirmation
                                          > code upon the ballot - to each address. (Unique confirmation codes
                                          > could be easily generated as a hash of the address, or just assign
                                          > a code to each signed-up participant in your database before you
                                          > send out the ballots.)

                                          Yes, that's a good point; maybe we should go back to snail-mailing all
                                          ballots. If we were to e-mail some ballots, we'd have to check the
                                          authenticity of the snail-mail addresses for all those who requested an
                                          e-mail ballot.

                                          ___________________________________________________________________________

                                          Jason P Sorens - jason.sorensATyale.edu - <http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35>

                                          <http://www.freestateproject.org> - Do you want liberty in your lifetime?
                                        • Kelly Setzer
                                          ... At some point, the voting process will need some detailed documentation that includes the following information. Since the vote is projected to occur next
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                            On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 09:59:08AM -0500, Jason P Sorens wrote:
                                            > On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Logic wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > If, thirty years from now, things don't turn out the way we want, who will
                                            > > have access to our individual voting records? How might those decisions be
                                            > > held against us?
                                            > >
                                            > > We MUST have anonymity in the process!
                                            >
                                            > No, it's not going to be anonymous - the Guidelines require that all
                                            > ballots be made public, to counter any accusations of vote-fixing. After
                                            > a reasonable period of time, the list of votes cast will be deleted.

                                            At some point, the voting process will need some detailed
                                            documentation that includes the following information. Since the vote
                                            is projected to occur next summer, it might be a good idea to start.

                                            1) Handling of questionable ballots: phone calls?
                                            2) Ballot retention period/Ballot destruction: shred at 2 years?
                                            3) Contact person/process for voter help
                                            4) Contact person/process for voting irregularities

                                            etcetera

                                            What can I do to help? I can write; I could draft a voting procedures
                                            document.

                                            Kelly
                                          • Gold Standard Press
                                            why does picking a state require any sort of anonymity? The danger one might perceive comes from joining the project in the first place. You have already
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                              why does picking a state require any sort of anonymity? The "danger" one might perceive comes from joining the project in the first place. You have already consigned to making your name public, plus move to a "target" (some paranoid folks would claim it will be). What is left to hide? Your choice of state is harmless and virtually meaningless, contextually, and in relative terms.

                                              Folks, this is such a moot point (especially since the bylaws have been etched). Can we get back to marketing so we might actually reach that 5,000 plateau, and VOTE IN OUR LIFETIME!!!


                                              c.

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Jason P Sorens
                                              To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 8:59 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [FSP] The cost of making the move


                                              On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Logic wrote:

                                              > If, thirty years from now, things don't turn out the way we want, who will
                                              > have access to our individual voting records? How might those decisions be
                                              > held against us?
                                              >
                                              > We MUST have anonymity in the process!

                                              No, it's not going to be anonymous - the Guidelines require that all
                                              ballots be made public, to counter any accusations of vote-fixing. After
                                              a reasonable period of time, the list of votes cast will be deleted.

                                              ___________________________________________________________________________

                                              Jason P Sorens - jason.sorensATyale.edu - <http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35>

                                              <http://www.freestateproject.org> - Do you want liberty in your lifetime?



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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • voodootyke
                                              ... simply ... decision ... Yeah right, it s irrelevant but you won t move to any place except th two states you mentioned. LOL ... to ... even ... Well I
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                                > The vote isn't about whether or not we support Freedom. It is
                                                simply
                                                > to decide in which State the first effort will be made. That
                                                decision
                                                > is irrelevant to me.
                                                > >


                                                Yeah right, it's irrelevant but you won't move to any place except
                                                th two states you mentioned. LOL



                                                > I'm not waiting to become an activist. Are you? I intend to move
                                                to
                                                > another State where my efforts have a better chance of success. If
                                                > the members here choose a State that is acceptale to me, that's
                                                even
                                                > better and I'll use that info to affect my personal choice.
                                                > >


                                                Well I intended to do a little work for the FSP once in the free
                                                state. You know, like voting if I can.



                                                > Your worrying about the integrity of the vote is a bogus argument.
                                                > Look over the info provided, and make some personal decisions on
                                                how
                                                > you personally rank the States. Opt out of any you don't like.


                                                So because I have free will and I can opt out of certain states that
                                                I don't like, I shouldn't be concerned about vote integrity. OK.


                                                If someone were to waste a bunch of their time to 'rig' the
                                                > vote, does it really matter?


                                                Errr. YEAH IT DOES!


                                                If you only have one favorite State, opt
                                                > out of all the rest of them and quit whining.



                                                Check this guy out. Hey sport, some people may have 1 acceptable
                                                state, some 2, some 6 and some all 10. What's that got to do with
                                                anything. It's rhetorical, don't bother answering.


                                                No one is going to
                                                > force you to move to someplace you don't want to go. If we have to
                                                > kidnap people against their Will, I predict the Group will fail.


                                                ?????


                                                > Voluntary participants are what we need, not a bunch of crybabies
                                                who
                                                > think they may be forced into something against their Will because
                                                of
                                                > a 'rigged' vote.



                                                ?????


                                                I'm done reading this.
                                              • Oliver Dyer
                                                [moderator s note: the non-anonymity issue is settled by the bylaws - however, other topics relating to the mechanics of the state vote remain fair game] I m
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                                  [moderator's note: the non-anonymity issue is settled by the bylaws - however, other topics relating to the mechanics of the state vote remain fair game]

                                                  I'm with Chuck on this one. If any man or woman won't stand up and be
                                                  counted in on a simple matter such as this, where will they be when it's
                                                  time to stand by our sides when we need them. If everyone takes this
                                                  attitude, nothing will ever get done and we deserve exactly what we get.
                                                  Everyone should check the home page at texasrepublic.org for the quote
                                                  from Sam Adams about this matter. Oliver

                                                  On 4 Dec 02, at 9:55, Gold Standard Press wrote:

                                                  > why does picking a state require any sort of anonymity? The "danger"
                                                  > one might perceive comes from joining the project in the first place.
                                                  > You have already consigned to making your name public, plus move to a
                                                  > "target" (some paranoid folks would claim it will be). What is left
                                                  > to hide? Your choice of state is harmless and virtually meaningless,
                                                  > contextually, and in relative terms.
                                                  >
                                                  > Folks, this is such a moot point (especially since the bylaws have
                                                  > been etched). Can we get back to marketing so we might actually reach
                                                  > that 5,000 plateau, and VOTE IN OUR LIFETIME!!!
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > c.
                                                  >
                                                • archy
                                                  ... easy for ... Just so. But the appearance of any vote fraud would certainly discourage further participation from the 15,000 others who are depending on the
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                                    --- In freestateproject@y..., Jason P Sorens <jason.sorens@y...>
                                                    wrote:

                                                    > Remember again that vote fraud is a very limited problem and is
                                                    easy for
                                                    > us to combat.

                                                    Just so. But the appearance of any vote fraud would certainly
                                                    discourage further participation from the 15,000 others who are
                                                    depending on the decision of the first 5000 to pick the very best
                                                    location where our ideas have a chance of success, or at least
                                                    survival. It's the modern reflection of the old adage that *Ceaser's
                                                    wife must be above reproach*.

                                                    Neither is a *fee* of five or twenty-five bucks much of a
                                                    discouragement to those who could hope to wrongfully influence such a
                                                    decision with funds that don't come from their own pocket in any
                                                    event. That's not our answer either.<p>

                                                    And I'm not yet rock-solid certain as to which state is indeed our
                                                    best bet, though I have a couple of personal preferences, and a
                                                    serious belief that in a couple of the states mentioned, we'd be
                                                    doomed to failure in any event. So if the voting between two or three
                                                    of the possibilities I see as more likely was a little skewed, that
                                                    wouldn't bother me nearly as much as the idea that the whole
                                                    organization remained vulnerable to further tampering.

                                                    The good news: we're about halfway to the point at which that
                                                    election has to be held, so something equitable and reasonable can
                                                    certainly be arranged in that time. But the way in which the problem
                                                    is resolved is going to be a precedent and example of how later
                                                    choices or directions might be chosen, so it had better be a good one.

                                                    -archy-/-
                                                  • chez@midhae.pair.com
                                                    ... I don t want to add more confusion to this debate, but there is one idea that I d like to throw out here. Between now and the time of the vote there are
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                                      > > Though this method holds only if all blank ballot sheets are mailed -
                                                      > > no collecting your ballot sheet by internet, as that would remove what
                                                      > > security unique addresses provides. You could still accept the incoming
                                                      > > votes by fax/scanned email, but the voters' addresses would only be known
                                                      > > valid if the ballots were sent - with some sort of unique confirmation
                                                      > > code upon the ballot - to each address. (Unique confirmation codes
                                                      > > could be easily generated as a hash of the address, or just assign
                                                      > > a code to each signed-up participant in your database before you
                                                      > > send out the ballots.)
                                                      >
                                                      > Yes, that's a good point; maybe we should go back to snail-mailing all
                                                      > ballots. If we were to e-mail some ballots, we'd have to check the
                                                      > authenticity of the snail-mail addresses for all those who requested an
                                                      > e-mail ballot.

                                                      I don't want to add more confusion to this debate, but there is one idea
                                                      that I'd like to throw out here.

                                                      Between now and the time of the vote there are going to be numerous local
                                                      FSP meetings, many of them with Jason or one of the FSP board members
                                                      present.

                                                      Well, is there any reason that those who have already pledged cannot vote
                                                      as soon as the election method is determined? It would seem that filling
                                                      out a ballot in person, in the witness of one of the FSP's board members to
                                                      certify it, would be the most secure method possible.

                                                      There are a few drawbacks: this couldn't be the only method, just one,
                                                      since not everyone will be able to make it to these. We'd also have to come
                                                      up with the ballots soon, which means determining the voting method soon.
                                                      And it would probably have to be ruled that once you submitted a ballot you
                                                      couldn't change it, so you better be sure about it; else the poor vote
                                                      counters will get flooded with "Switch North Dakota with Idaho on my ballot
                                                      please!" messages every time someone forwards out a news item.

                                                      Oh, and needless to say, the votes themselves shouldn't actually be
                                                      tabulated until everyone has voted. But their existence can be catalouged,
                                                      which could help spread ther work out for the ballot receivers.

                                                      All of those problems notwithstanding, I like the idea of doing this in
                                                      person if possible. It's the most secure method, doesn't add unnecessary
                                                      postal costs (I like the idea of giving the Postal Service as little money
                                                      as possible for this :-) ), and perhaps encourages people to go to these
                                                      meetings.

                                                      -Robert Chesnavich
                                                      robert@...
                                                    • motie_d
                                                      ... Pretty much. The choice has already been made between leaving the beer in the sun, or putting it in the refrigerator. The choice now is which shelf in the
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                                        --- In freestateproject@y..., voodootyke <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                                        > >

                                                        > Do you think it's all much ado about nothing?

                                                        Pretty much. The choice has already been made between leaving the
                                                        beer in the sun, or putting it in the refrigerator. The choice now is
                                                        which shelf in the refriferator to put it. Some people really and
                                                        honestly don't care.
                                                        While you are going through this personally stressful process of
                                                        deciding, the beer is sitting in the sun. Hopefully you can decide on
                                                        a valid method to use to vote, so you can then try to decide which
                                                        shelf the beer should go on. Also hopefully, you will decide on how
                                                        the decision should be made before the beer explodes. I hope you
                                                        don't mind if I just put my beer in my own cooler, and move on
                                                        without you?
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > No your example has done nothing of the sort. If anything, it
                                                        > reminds me how cavalierly some people are inclined to take things
                                                        > and this endeavor is no different it seems. It makes me wonder what
                                                        > the rammifications of that are. I don't have an answer but it is a
                                                        > disturbing.

                                                        Do you have this much trouble choosing between 2 parking spaces? How
                                                        many times does the store close for the night while you are deciding
                                                        on a legitimate method to determine which space is better.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > No, I'm suggesting that lackadaisical attitudes comes with real
                                                        > dangers when it comes to building a new life for oneself and his or
                                                        > her families. I'm saying that this effort demands careful thought
                                                        > and hard decisions and that no great effort that I can recall was
                                                        > ever executed with lackadaisical attitudes.

                                                        You may be better off just staying where you are, and letting Uncle
                                                        Sugar make your choices for you. This seems to be a very traumatic
                                                        experience for you.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > You make it sound like it's simply a choice of apples in a fruit
                                                        > stand. If only that were true, we wouldn't need the FSP to begin
                                                        > with.

                                                        It's no more difficult than that. The choice has been made between
                                                        apples and oranges. Apples were chosen. There are 10 apples. The
                                                        choice now is which of the 10 apples to choose. Some people don't
                                                        care which apple. Some do. You are holding up the choice of apples by
                                                        backstepping to determine how the choice should be made.
                                                        >
                                                        > Do you think there is no difference between universities and the
                                                        > education they offer?

                                                        There may be right now. There won't be when we replace every member
                                                        of the staff.

                                                        > Do you think there is no difference between hospitals and the
                                                        health
                                                        > care they offer?

                                                        Same as above.

                                                        > Do you think there is no difference between retirement homes and
                                                        the
                                                        > caring they offer to your parents?

                                                        Same as above.

                                                        > Do you think there is no difference between financial institutions
                                                        > and the investing services they offer?

                                                        Same as above.

                                                        > Do you think there is no difference between law firms and the
                                                        > services they offer?

                                                        Same as above.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > I'm not
                                                        > convinced from what you've offered as an argument, that there are
                                                        > many who would personally choose not to have any say in where they
                                                        > will be living in the future.
                                                        >
                                                        They have already made their choice, which you seem unwilling to
                                                        accept. They have chosen to move to whichever State those who have a
                                                        preference decide on.

                                                        Motie
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