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Re: Water & The West

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  • B Irvin
    ... I ve already answered the Nevada question. However, water is a problem in the southwest (AZ, southern NV, parts of NM, southern UT, and most of CO).
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 31, 2002
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      Mary Lou observed:

      >> Where does NV get it's water? Are water and other utilites expensive?
      > >Do people garden?

      >That is one major concern in the Western states. The cost of a drilling a well.


      I've already answered the Nevada question. However, water is a problem
      in the southwest (AZ, southern NV, parts of NM, southern UT, and most
      of CO). Despite of 70% of WY being a desert, it has plenty of fresh water
      because of its high mountains and low population. Idaho has plenty of water
      (especially north ID). Idaho also has the world's largest underground river
      (by volume) just where it is needed the most...south ID for the potato farmers.
      Montana is the headwaters for America's two largest river systems (the
      Mississippi and Columbia). It has plenty of water. Indeed, it has the largest
      fresh water lake west of the Great Lakes (Flathead Lake). SD and ND
      are not deserts (neither is MT except for 1.3% of the state) and have the
      Big Missouri River running through them. Water is cheap in ID, WY, MT,
      SD, and ND.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mary Lou Seymour
      I m confused. What do you do to get water to pipe into your house? Do you run a line from the river or something? I mean, we have plenty of rivers and such
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 31, 2002
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        I'm confused. What do you do to get water to pipe into your house? Do you
        run a line from the river or something? I mean, we have plenty of rivers and
        such here in the South, thats where the cities & water districts get their
        water. But I do NOT use government water. (I don't like to live in town, thats
        only ONE reason). i do not like chlorine or chemicals in my water, (even to
        water my garden) and, the really bad thing about govt water, of course, is
        they can "turn it off". So having a private well is extremely important to me.
        (the "price" of govt water, even if low now, can go up any time they want:-)...

        > I've already answered the Nevada question. However, water is a
        > problem in the southwest (AZ, southern NV, parts of NM, southern UT,
        > and most of CO). Despite of 70% of WY being a desert, it has plenty
        > of fresh water because of its high mountains and low population.
        > Idaho has plenty of water (especially north ID). Idaho also has the
        > world's largest underground river (by volume) just where it is needed
        > the most...south ID for the potato farmers. Montana is the headwaters
        > for America's two largest river systems (the Mississippi and
        > Columbia). It has plenty of water. Indeed, it has the largest fresh
        > water lake west of the Great Lakes (Flathead Lake). SD and ND are not
        > deserts (neither is MT except for 1.3% of the state) and have the Big
        > Missouri River running through them. Water is cheap in ID, WY, MT,
        > SD, and ND.
      • B Irvin
        ... I would say that 95% of the people in ID,MT, and WY get their water from the water company (either a private water company or operated by the city). Where
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 31, 2002
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          Mary Low wrote:


          >I'm confused. What do you do to get water to pipe into your house? Do you
          >run a line from the river or something? I mean, we have plenty of rivers and
          >such here in the South, thats where the cities & water districts get their
          >water. But I do NOT use government water. (I don't like to live in town, thats
          >only ONE reason). i do not like chlorine or chemicals in my water, (even to
          >water my garden) and, the really bad thing about govt water, of course, is
          >they can "turn it off". So having a private well is extremely important to me.
          >(the "price" of govt water, even if low now, can go up any time they want:-)...

          I would say that 95% of the people in ID,MT, and WY get their water from
          the water company (either a private water company or operated by the city).
          Where do you get your gasoline? Surely you don't drill and refine your own
          oil? Lke mentioned before, most of the West is an oasis society. It isn't like
          the East where every quarter section there is a farm house. About thirty years
          ago I lived in an isolated house in the southeastern corner of the Crow Reservation
          in Montana. My closest neighbor to the south lived 57 miles miles away in
          Wyoming. In the Crow country one has water underground (about 20 feet
          deep) everywhere within 15-20 miles of the mountains. This is melted snow
          water that is cold and fresh. The same is true for most of Idaho north of the
          Snake river.

          Ben



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mary Lou Seymour
          ... Sigh. I don t drink gasoline:-) or water my food with it. If the govt ever DID cut off gas/oil, I d still have shank s mare (and my bike). If I cant afford
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 1, 2002
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            > I would say that 95% of the people in ID,MT, and WY get their water
            > from the water company (either a private water company or operated by
            > the city). Where do you get your gasoline? Surely you don't drill and
            > refine your own oil?

            Sigh. I don't drink gasoline:-) or water my food with it. If the govt ever DID cut
            off gas/oil, I'd still have shank's mare (and my bike). If I cant afford gas, I
            walk. If I cant afford water, I die. Although I have, in the past, bought water
            from a private water company, when the guy died & his son took over the
            business and then decided to close it down for everyone but his family I
            swore never again to be dependent on another for water. (Another example
            of not realizing a chain til it slaps you in the face).

            Lke mentioned before, most of the West is an
            > oasis society. It isn't like the East where every quarter section
            > there is a farm house. About thirty years ago I lived in an isolated
            > house in the southeastern corner of the Crow Reservation in Montana.
            > My closest neighbor to the south lived 57 miles miles away in Wyoming.
            > In the Crow country one has water underground (about 20 feet deep)
            > everywhere within 15-20 miles of the mountains. This is melted snow
            > water that is cold and fresh. The same is true for most of Idaho
            > north of the Snake river.


            I understand that. Which makes your own water source even more
            important. The point is, in Crow County, how deep must I drill a well? Any
            idea of costs? I am being PERFECTLY serious here. several years ago i
            checked on the cost to drill a well in Arizona and it was astronomical (in the
            $10,000-20,000 plus range).

            And you're correct. The huge distance between "settlements" is one thing
            that, to me, is spooky about the west. I'm not a city gal, I like my
            isolation...but to me that means neighbors within 5 miles.
          • Ernest Moosa
            I think the really bad thing about government water is that they can add things to it for your own good and you are not even aware of it. ... ===== Where
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 1, 2002
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              I think the really bad thing about government water is
              that they can add things to it "for your own good"
              and you are not even aware of it.



              --- Mary Lou Seymour <libertymls@...>
              wrote:
              > I'm confused. What do you do to get water to pipe
              > into your house? Do you
              > run a line from the river or something? I mean, we
              > have plenty of rivers and
              > such here in the South, thats where the cities &
              > water districts get their
              > water. But I do NOT use government water. (I don't
              > like to live in town, thats
              > only ONE reason). i do not like chlorine or
              > chemicals in my water, (even to
              > water my garden) and, the really bad thing about
              > govt water, of course, is
              > they can "turn it off". So having a private well is
              > extremely important to me.
              > (the "price" of govt water, even if low now, can go
              > up any time they want:-)...
              >
              > > I've already answered the Nevada question.
              > However, water is a
              > > problem in the southwest (AZ, southern NV, parts
              > of NM, southern UT,
              > > and most of CO). Despite of 70% of WY being a
              > desert, it has plenty
              > > of fresh water because of its high mountains and
              > low population.
              > > Idaho has plenty of water (especially north ID).
              > Idaho also has the
              > > world's largest underground river (by volume) just
              > where it is needed
              > > the most...south ID for the potato farmers.
              > Montana is the headwaters
              > > for America's two largest river systems (the
              > Mississippi and
              > > Columbia). It has plenty of water. Indeed, it
              > has the largest fresh
              > > water lake west of the Great Lakes (Flathead
              > Lake). SD and ND are not
              > > deserts (neither is MT except for 1.3% of the
              > state) and have the Big
              > > Missouri River running through them. Water is
              > cheap in ID, WY, MT,
              > > SD, and ND.
              >
              >


              =====
              Where has your money been? HTTP://www.wheresgeorge.com
              "The individual is the single most important minority. If your rights are removed by the majority, you have been enslaved." EJ

              "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams

              www.ejmoosa.com

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            • Debra Ricketts
              ... I think the last time I priced it out for Rachel, NV, it was $10 / ft, and the depth ranged up to 800 ft, with 300 ft as the average. So, about 3 grand
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 1, 2002
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                On Thursday 01 August 2002 04:57 am, you wrote:

                >
                > I understand that. Which makes your own water source even more
                > important. The point is, in Crow County, how deep must I drill a well? Any
                > idea of costs? I am being PERFECTLY serious here. several years ago i
                > checked on the cost to drill a well in Arizona and it was astronomical (in
                > the $10,000-20,000 plus range).
                >
                > And you're correct. The huge distance between "settlements" is one thing
                > that, to me, is spooky about the west. I'm not a city gal, I like my
                > isolation...but to me that means neighbors within 5 miles.
                >

                I think the last time I priced it out for Rachel, NV, it was $10 / ft, and
                the depth ranged up to 800 ft, with 300 ft as the average. So, about 3 grand
                for that location. I guess once the place is chosen, one would have to find
                the best area for water .

                I'm also big on private wells. In addition, I plan to use solar & generator
                for my power, since I hate being dependent on power companies.

                (Here in LV, they are putting a "survey" question on the November ballot:
                "How would you feel about Nevada Power (a private company) becoming a
                municipal power company (e.g. the county/state buying it out)?" It's bad
                enough that it's a monopoly, now they want to make it a govt monopoly.)

                Debra
              • Tim Condon
                ... Interesting. And viva la difference. I *don t* like isolation, and can t figure out people who want to live out in the middle of nowhere with the closest
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 1, 2002
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                  At 08:57 AM 8/1/02 -0700, you wrote:
                  > > I understand that. Which makes your own water source even more
                  > important. The point is, in Crow County, how deep must I drill a well?
                  > Any idea of costs? I am being PERFECTLY serious here. several years ago i
                  > checked on the cost to drill a well in Arizona and it was astronomical
                  > (in the $10,000-20,000 plus range).
                  >
                  > > And you're correct. The huge distance between "settlements" is one thing
                  > > that, to me, is spooky about the west. I'm not a city gal, I like my
                  > > isolation...but to me that means neighbors within 5 miles. Debra Ricketts

                  Interesting. And viva la difference. I *don't* like isolation, and
                  can't figure out people who want to live out in the middle of nowhere with
                  the closest neighbor 50 miles away. No matter where the Free State sets up
                  shop, I intend to live in a town or city with plenty of friends and
                  neighbors around. Some people are gregarious. I'm one of 'em. That's where
                  cities come from. Still & all, whatever stirs your grits is okay with moi!

                  Tim Condon ~ Email: tim@... ~ O: 813-251-2626 ~ Fax 813-254-2979
                • Mary Lou Seymour
                  ... $3000 is OK. But NV seems out of the running (at least for me, I think it was one of my wont go there states (actually, I ve kinda forgotten, its been
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 1, 2002
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                    > I think the last time I priced it out for Rachel, NV, it was $10 / ft,
                    > and the depth ranged up to 800 ft, with 300 ft as the average. So,
                    > about 3 grand for that location. I guess once the place is chosen,
                    > one would have to find the best area for water .

                    $3000 is OK.
                    But NV seems out of the running (at least for me, I "think" it was one of my
                    "wont go there" states (actually, I've kinda forgotten, its been so long now:-)
                    Idaho seems still in the running though (if the stuff about mild winters is
                    correct;-). I wonder if the Idaho boosters could do a quickie survey of local
                    well drillers (in the area with the mild winters) and let me know? (It seems
                    kinda strange to me that "95% of the people don't "own" their water source,
                    and i wonder why)

                    > I'm also big on private wells. In addition, I plan to use solar &
                    > generator for my power, since I hate being dependent on power
                    > companies.
                    Yeah, I have backup solar/generator/propane/wood etc. But I can live with
                    buying my power from the power companies (as long as its available), while i
                    truly HATE the idea of drinking govt water. (Heck, I can barely stand to bathe
                    in chlorinated water.) Buying bottled water is expensive and I dont want to
                    "go there" if I can avoid it. (And no, those filter setups for tap water are NOT
                    satisfactory, not to me that is.)
                  • G
                    ... My water bill is $5/mo + $10/mo sewer. $15*55 years *12 months=$9,900 for a lifetime of city water. Actually the $15/mo really costs the city around a dime
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 1, 2002
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                      On Thu, 2002-08-01 at 19:06, Mary Lou Seymour wrote:

                      > well drillers (in the area with the mild winters) and let me know? (It seems
                      > kinda strange to me that "95% of the people don't "own" their water source,
                      > and i wonder why)

                      My water bill is $5/mo + $10/mo sewer. $15*55 years *12 months=$9,900
                      for a lifetime of city water. Actually the $15/mo really costs the city
                      around a dime so it is a tax and quite profitable for a city. It seems
                      most people don't care about the mark-up, perhaps because it is still
                      cheaper than drilling and maintaining your own well for most people who
                      move a lot. Maybe just because they don't realize they are being rooked.

                      When I consider the 20,000 South Americans who recently died of cholera
                      because the WHO thought treating the water would be dangerous, I'm glad
                      the city adds chlorine. Although I think I'd prefer ozone since it
                      smells a bit nicer even though it costs a little more.

                      I'd like to see water treatment privatized but I wouldn't want to get
                      rid of it, at least not in densely populated areas.
                      g
                      --
                      We prefer to believe that the absence of inverted commas guarantees the
                      originality of a thought, whereas it may be merely that the utterer has
                      forgotten its source.
                      -- Clifton Fadiman, "Any Number Can Play"
                    • Mary Lou Seymour
                      ... Yes, that is the problem with densely populated areas . When developers start cramming folks into tiny lots and town houses etc, so they can t have
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 1, 2002
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                        > I'd like to see water treatment privatized but I wouldn't want to get
                        > rid of it, at least not in densely populated areas.

                        Yes, that is the problem with "densely populated areas". When developers
                        start cramming folks into tiny lots and "town houses" etc, so they can't have
                        septic tanks and wells, obviously they have to have centralized
                        water/sewage, and, have to treat it. I don't live in areas like that, never will.
                        Bad enough now, will only get worse as time goes on. What I require is 5-10
                        acres, 10-20 miles from a small town. with a good water table and a
                        reasonable "perc rate" (so the drain field doesn't have to be humongous:-) I
                        know the East coast and south well enough to know that this is within my
                        price range; I do NOT know the West well enough to know. I appreciate any
                        input.
                      • timb2112
                        Not that I m disagreeing with you, but don t forget that Coca Cola, Pepsi, Perrier and your own local micro-brewery or winery can do the same...i.e. don t get
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 2, 2002
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                          Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but don't forget that Coca Cola,
                          Pepsi, Perrier and your own local micro-brewery or winery can do the
                          same...i.e. don't get too paranoid. ;)

                          Tim B.


                          --- In freestateproject@y..., Ernest Moosa <ejmoosa@y...> wrote:
                          > I think the really bad thing about government water is
                          > that they can add things to it "for your own good"
                          > and you are not even aware of it.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- Mary Lou Seymour <libertymls@f...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > I'm confused. What do you do to get water to pipe
                          > > into your house? Do you
                          > > run a line from the river or something? I mean, we
                          > > have plenty of rivers and
                          > > such here in the South, thats where the cities &
                          > > water districts get their
                          > > water. But I do NOT use government water. (I don't
                          > > like to live in town, thats
                          > > only ONE reason). i do not like chlorine or
                          > > chemicals in my water, (even to
                          > > water my garden) and, the really bad thing about
                          > > govt water, of course, is
                          > > they can "turn it off". So having a private well is
                          > > extremely important to me.
                          > > (the "price" of govt water, even if low now, can go
                          > > up any time they want:-)...
                          > >
                          > > > I've already answered the Nevada question.
                          > > However, water is a
                          > > > problem in the southwest (AZ, southern NV, parts
                          > > of NM, southern UT,
                          > > > and most of CO). Despite of 70% of WY being a
                          > > desert, it has plenty
                          > > > of fresh water because of its high mountains and
                          > > low population.
                          > > > Idaho has plenty of water (especially north ID).
                          > > Idaho also has the
                          > > > world's largest underground river (by volume) just
                          > > where it is needed
                          > > > the most...south ID for the potato farmers.
                          > > Montana is the headwaters
                          > > > for America's two largest river systems (the
                          > > Mississippi and
                          > > > Columbia). It has plenty of water. Indeed, it
                          > > has the largest fresh
                          > > > water lake west of the Great Lakes (Flathead
                          > > Lake). SD and ND are not
                          > > > deserts (neither is MT except for 1.3% of the
                          > > state) and have the Big
                          > > > Missouri River running through them. Water is
                          > > cheap in ID, WY, MT,
                          > > > SD, and ND.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > =====
                          > Where has your money been? HTTP://www.wheresgeorge.com
                          > "The individual is the single most important minority. If your
                          rights are removed by the majority, you have been enslaved." EJ
                          >
                          > "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of
                          servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from
                          us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and
                          lick the hand that feeds you; and posterity forget that ye were our
                          countrymen." - Samuel Adams
                          >
                          > www.ejmoosa.com
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
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                        • Baubo
                          I see there is a need for a quick natural resource lesson here. First, in the arid west, nearly all of the drinking water comes from the ground and most of
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 7, 2002
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                            I see there is a need for a quick natural resource lesson here. First, in the arid west, nearly all of the drinking water comes from the ground and most of that has to be pumped up. Ground water is generally of higher quality than surface water and it is safe from radiation fallout. The problems are that it costs money to drill the well, install and maintain the pump and pay the electric bill. You can lift the water with wind or solar energy, but except for livestock water in remote locations, hardly anyone does that (yet).

                            A small percentage of the drinking water comes from springs and streams. This type of water is often available to people in the mountains or hills. Springs generally offer the highest water quality and gravity flow, but they are prone to go dry in drought years. And again, if you wanted firefighting water, you would have to build a huge elevated cistern.

                            Most people in the arid west, and the country in general, purchase their water from a municipality. In the arid west, this is often a small town of a few hundred people. People outside of town have their own individual wells. The downside is higher initial cost and no water for fire protection. They pay more for their fire insurance. On the plus side, they don't have to treat their water to get the chlorine out. The $3000 figure someone mentioned for drilling a well on the Snake River Plain sounds about right for a typical site. The pump and pressure tank would be extra. There is great variation; however, so one should always call a local well driller before signing any earnest money papers on raw land. Septic systems typically cost about $2000. Call the health dept. before you sign anything. In some areas they could cost more than the house or simply be forbidden. (Do libertarians wish to do away with ground water protection rules? Don't bite my head off. Just asking?)

                            When I think of my own tiny town's water & sewage systems, I don't know what advantage would be gained through privatization. It is well run now and if one has a complaint it is easy enough to go to the city council. The feds regulate public water systems, so the rules are the same whether there is private or municipal ownership. When you live in a small town it is not very different from being a shareholder in a company that provides you essential services.

                            Irrigation water is quite a different matter. In southern Idaho, most of the irrigation water comes from rivers and is owned and dispensed to shareholders through totally private canal companies which are very careful to avoid all contractual agreements with the federal government because these could somehow compromise their water right in the future. About a fifth of the irrigation water comes from privately owned, but closely regulated, deep private wells.

                            Regards,
                            Maureen

                            > I'd like to see water treatment privatized but I wouldn't want to get
                            > rid of it, at least not in densely populated areas.

                            Yes, that is the problem with "densely populated areas". When developers
                            start cramming folks into tiny lots and "town houses" etc, so they can't have
                            septic tanks and wells, obviously they have to have centralized
                            water/sewage, and, have to treat it. I don't live in areas like that, never will.
                            Bad enough now, will only get worse as time goes on. What I require is 5-10
                            acres, 10-20 miles from a small town. with a good water table and a
                            reasonable "perc rate" (so the drain field doesn't have to be humongous:-) I
                            know the East coast and south well enough to know that this is within my
                            price range; I do NOT know the West well enough to know. I appreciate any
                            input.

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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • eoanthropus_dawsoni
                            ... It depends a great deal on where one wants to live. In some of the trendy areas of the mountain States the cost of obtaining property is going to be much
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 8, 2002
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                              > What I require is 5-10 acres, 10-20 miles from a small town. with
                              >a good water table and a reasonable "perc rate" (so the drain field
                              >doesn't have to be humongous:-) I know the East coast and south well
                              >enough to know that this is within my price range; I do NOT know
                              >the West well enough to know. I appreciate any input.

                              It depends a great deal on where one wants to live. In some of
                              the "trendy" areas of the mountain States the cost of obtaining
                              property is going to be much higher than if one is willing to live on
                              the prairie. Here in western North Dakota, if one is willing to live
                              away from the larger towns, a farmstead can be quite reasonable.
                              Depending on the condition of the house and out buildings, something
                              in the 5-10 acre size would probably run from 20-60K. One thing to
                              keep in mind is that the smaller "hobby farms" may actually cost more
                              than a larger chunk of land. Out here it is not unsual to find
                              quarter sections of land up for sale where the buildings are more or
                              less thrown in for free. Something of that nature would require more
                              work to make the house livable but can be a great deal for someone
                              willing to put some work into a place.

                              Crop land will be much more costly, but range land in some parts of
                              the west can still be had for $150-200 per acre. That's 32K for your
                              own piece of the world 1/2 mile by 1/2 mile square. Spend a few
                              thousand dollars on a well, move an old house on to the place, and
                              you have heaven.
                            • Mary Lou Seymour
                              ... I don t care about being trendy. I do care about a relatively temperate climate (like the places previously described in Montana and Idaho) North Dakota is
                              Message 14 of 15 , Aug 8, 2002
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                                > It depends a great deal on where one wants to live. In some of
                                > the "trendy" areas of the mountain States the cost of obtaining
                                > property is going to be much higher than if one is willing to live on
                                > the prairie. Here in western North Dakota

                                I don't care about being trendy. I do care about a relatively temperate climate
                                (like the places previously described in Montana and Idaho) North Dakota is
                                a bit cold:-)

                                if one is willing to live
                                > away from the larger towns, a farmstead can be quite reasonable.
                                > Depending on the condition of the house and out buildings, something
                                > in the 5-10 acre size would probably run from 20-60K. One thing to
                                > keep in mind is that the smaller "hobby farms" may actually cost more
                                > than a larger chunk of land. Out here it is not unsual to find quarter
                                > sections of land up for sale where the buildings are more or less
                                > thrown in for free. Something of that nature would require more work
                                > to make the house livable but can be a great deal for someone willing
                                > to put some work into a place.
                                >
                                > Crop land will be much more costly, but range land in some parts of
                                > the west can still be had for $150-200 per acre. That's 32K for your
                                > own piece of the world 1/2 mile by 1/2 mile square. Spend a few
                                > thousand dollars on a well, move an old house on to the place, and you
                                > have heaven.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                              • eoanthropus_dawsoni
                                ... temperate climate ... Dakota is ... It does get cold here, but not as cold as one may think. Unless you were in southern ID or souteast MT, you would
                                Message 15 of 15 , Aug 8, 2002
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                                  --- In freestateproject@y..., "Mary Lou Seymour" <libertymls@f...>
                                  wrote:

                                  >
                                  > I don't care about being trendy. I do care about a relatively
                                  temperate climate
                                  > (like the places previously described in Montana and Idaho) North
                                  Dakota is
                                  > a bit cold:-)
                                  >
                                  It does get cold here, but not as cold as one may think. Unless you
                                  were in southern ID or souteast MT, you would likely be colder than
                                  in ND. On the other hand, in the summer it is warmer in ND than ID or
                                  MT. It is a climate of extremes, much more so than most other States.

                                  We like to say "Fourty below keeps the riff raff out." Well, -40 does
                                  occur here now and then but not so often as most people think.
                                  However our winters do tend to cull the herd a bit, no homeless
                                  problem up here!
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