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Re: [FSP] East-West bias-the Solution

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  • Ernest Moosa
    I have to disagree with you on a few points. I am not sure why you feel you are dividing forces when in effect you are making the free state available to more
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 31, 2002
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      I have to disagree with you on a few points. I am not
      sure why you feel you are dividing forces when in
      effect you are making the free state available to more
      people that would not choose to move so far. There
      is not a fixed number of people that would move for
      freedom. And the more convenient it is for them to
      do, the more likely they are to do it.

      For example, if Delaware was chosen, there is the
      potential to have thousands that work in the cities of
      neighboring states near Delaware to migrate to
      Delaware for the benefits of living in the Free State.

      In Georgia, something called the Hope Scholarship was
      created. This is a grant to go to a Georgia
      university paid for by the state as long as the
      student makes a B average. What has happened?
      Thousands of families along North Carolina, Tennessee,
      Alabama, Sout Carolina and Florida have moved just
      over the borders to Georgia so that they could get
      this benefit for their child. But there is no
      evidence of people moving from the west coast for such
      a benefit.

      Those with the chance to benefit by a few thousand
      dollars a year relocated quickly. If the same were
      true for relocating to Delaware, and saving thousands
      on taxes, you can bet they would be moving.

      Your third point I also disagree with. There is a big
      difference. if you have family, 200 miles is a 3 hour
      drive. Two thousand miles is a plane trip. The
      concept of still being close to friends and relatives
      disappears after 400 miles or so.

      Your fourth point that it is humongous, and would be
      doubly tough with two states is interesting. If
      simpler government, simpler laws, and freedom are
      gonna be that tough, then something is wrong. That is
      not a message that will get us many new members. We
      are making it too complicated if it turns out that
      way.

      I have been discussing the concept with many of my
      friends. Many are interested in finding out more
      about it. While there may be concerns about finding
      20,000 or so, I believe that many here could be
      underestimating the potential. There are already 566
      members. How much exposure has this project actually
      had? Do you think that it has been introduced to
      500,000 people yet?

      Those are a few of my thoughts. Thanks for taking
      time to respond.

      EJ

      --- Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
      > At 06:29 AM 7/31/02 -0700, you wrote:
      > >Why not pick two states? One east and one west of
      > the Mississippi? If we
      > >get 20,000, I am sure we will get 40,000. The
      > posibbility of NOT having to
      > >relocate as far away as the east coast for
      > westerners and vice versa for
      > >the easterners might actually bring more people
      > into the project. The
      > >learning curve for both states would be steeper as
      > we would have the
      > >ability to learn from one another as we progressed.
      > If we are going to
      > >think big, why not think REALLY BIG? EJ
      >
      > One, you don't want to divide your forces;
      > makes'em weaker.
      > Two, there may not *be* 20,000, much less
      > 40,000, libertarians
      > willing to relocate.
      > Three, moving 200 miles away from where you
      > live is conceptually
      > really not that much different from moving 2,000
      > miles away from where you
      > live. Either way, you're well away from where you
      > used to live.
      > Four, the undertaking is so humongous that
      > even trying to do it
      > with one state is an overwhelming proposition;
      > trying to do the same trick
      > with two states would make the undertaking
      > titanically double-humongous.
      > Five, personally I don't see the bias in
      > favor of eastern or
      > western states that other people posting here see; I
      > think most people have
      > an attitude like mine: I'll go wherever the
      > organization finally settles
      > upon. TIM C.
      >
      >


      =====
      Where has your money been? HTTP://www.wheresgeorge.com
      "The individual is the single most important minority. If your rights are removed by the majority, you have been enslaved." EJ

      "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams

      www.ejmoosa.com

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    • Debra Ricketts
      ... In what way? FWIW, I actually live in Las Vegas, and it seemed pretty accurate to me. Nevada as a state is pretty cool. Clark County, which has the
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 31, 2002
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        On Tuesday 30 July 2002 09:21 pm, you wrote:
        > A pretty poor report, IMHO, but consistent with this lists eastern bias.
        >
        > John
        >


        In what way? FWIW, I actually live in Las Vegas, and it seemed pretty
        accurate to me. Nevada as a state is pretty cool. Clark County, which has
        the majority of the people and legislatively controls the state, sucks.



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        Debra J Ricketts
        - ------------------------------
        The Free State Project - Liberty in Our Lifetime
        (702) 993-6593 / info@...
        http://www.freestateproject.org

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      • Debra Ricketts
        ... I *love* the west (I ve lived in Michigan and Nevada, BTW). But I d be willing to move to NH, although I m not real thrilled about it. It would probably
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 31, 2002
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          On Wednesday 31 July 2002 06:15 am, you wrote:
          > At 08:04 AM 7/31/02 -0300, you wrote:
          > > >From Dan Weiner
          > > >I have found the bias between east and west varies depending on who
          > >
          > > is >posting this week. I tend to favor the western states myself, but New
          > > Hampshire and Delaware have interesting possibilities.
          > >
          > > From Adam G.: I'm a midwesterner, and my two favorites are NH and
          > > Idaho. Funny...one in the east and one in the west.
          > >Adam G.
          >
          > From Tim Condon: What the heck, I may as well get in on this. I live in
          > the South, in Florida. My two favorites so far are Montana and New
          > Hampshire. No East-West bias there either.
          >

          I *love* the west (I've lived in Michigan and Nevada, BTW). But I'd be
          willing to move to NH, although I'm not real thrilled about it. It would
          probably turn out fine...but I am UTTERLY biased for the West. Montana,
          Idaho, Wyoming, even staying here in Nevada would be my choice!


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          Debra J Ricketts
          - ------------------------------
          The Free State Project - Liberty in Our Lifetime
          (702) 993-6593 / info@...
          http://www.freestateproject.org

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        • Jason P Sorens
          ... Exposure is the key issue. If we could expose this plan fully to 500,000 people, who knows how big this could get? But getting that kind of exposure
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 31, 2002
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            On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Ernest Moosa wrote:

            > I have been discussing the concept with many of my
            > friends. Many are interested in finding out more
            > about it. While there may be concerns about finding
            > 20,000 or so, I believe that many here could be
            > underestimating the potential. There are already 566
            > members. How much exposure has this project actually
            > had? Do you think that it has been introduced to
            > 500,000 people yet?

            Exposure is the key issue. If we could expose this plan fully to 500,000
            people, who knows how big this could get? But getting that kind of
            exposure requires major resources. Maybe we'll get there, but we're just
            building up to it right now.

            ________________________________________________________________________

            Jason P Sorens---jason.sorens@...---http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35

            http://www.freestateproject.org - Do you want liberty in your lifetime?
          • Tim Condon
            ... All right EJ, make it 400 miles. The same point is valid I think. ... No, no: When I said it was a humongous undertaking, I m talking about wresting
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 31, 2002
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              >Your third point I also disagree with. There is a big
              >difference. if you have family, 200 miles is a 3 hour
              >drive. Two thousand miles is a plane trip. The
              >concept of still being close to friends and relatives
              >disappears after 400 miles or so.

              All right EJ, make it 400 miles. The same point is valid I think.

              >Your fourth point that it is humongous, and would be
              >doubly tough with two states is interesting. If
              >simpler government, simpler laws, and freedom are
              >gonna be that tough, then something is wrong. That is
              >not a message that will get us many new members. We
              >are making it too complicated if it turns out that
              >way.

              No, no: When I said it was a humongous undertaking, I'm talking
              about wresting control from the statists. Government is the huge behemoth
              it is because people *want* it to be that way, they *vote* for people who
              make it that way. We'll have friends waiting to welcome us in whatever
              state is chosen, but we're going to need to do a lot of work to get at
              least half the total voting population to go along with us (which may be
              easier as the benefits are shown; however, fear and loathing will dominate
              in the beginning, fanned on by the existing political structure and their
              lackeys in the media).

              >Those are a few of my thoughts. Thanks for taking
              >time to respond.
              >EJ

              Thanks for *participating*! Tim Condon
            • Phyllis
              I, too, am biased toward the West, but I will move to New Hampshire if that is the choice. I m not so sure about Delaware. Phyllis ...
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 31, 2002
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                I, too, am biased toward the West, but I will move to New
                Hampshire if that is the choice. I'm not so sure about
                Delaware.

                Phyllis

                --- Debra Ricketts <dricketts@...> wrote:
                > On Wednesday 31 July 2002 06:15 am, you wrote:
                > > At 08:04 AM 7/31/02 -0300, you wrote:
                > > > >From Dan Weiner
                > > > >I have found the bias between east and west varies
                > depending on who
                > > >
                > > > is >posting this week. I tend to favor the western
                > states myself, but New
                > > > Hampshire and Delaware have interesting
                > possibilities.
                > > >
                > > > From Adam G.: I'm a midwesterner, and my two
                > favorites are NH and
                > > > Idaho. Funny...one in the east and one in the west.
                > > >Adam G.
                > >
                > > From Tim Condon: What the heck, I may as well get in
                > on this. I live in
                > > the South, in Florida. My two favorites so far are
                > Montana and New
                > > Hampshire. No East-West bias there either.
                > >
                >
                > I *love* the west (I've lived in Michigan and Nevada,
                > BTW). But I'd be
                > willing to move to NH, although I'm not real thrilled
                > about it. It would
                > probably turn out fine...but I am UTTERLY biased for the
                > West. Montana,
                > Idaho, Wyoming, even staying here in Nevada would be my
                > choice!
                >
                >
                > --
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                > Debra J Ricketts
                > - ------------------------------
                > The Free State Project - Liberty in Our Lifetime
                > (702) 993-6593 / info@...
                > http://www.freestateproject.org
                >
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                =====
                The saddest epitaph which can be carved in memory of a
                vanished liberty is that it was lost because its possessors
                failed to stretch forth a saving hand while yet there was
                time.--George Sutherland, 1862-1942 US Supreme Court Justice

                "May you live all the days of your life."
                - Jonathan Swift

                __________________________________________________
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              • elizabeth_freestate
                ... bias. ... Feel free to submit your own report! :^) I thought Anita s was great.
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 1, 2002
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                  --- In freestateproject@y..., John Gilger <bjgilger@e...> wrote:
                  > A pretty poor report, IMHO, but consistent with this lists eastern
                  bias.
                  >
                  > John

                  Feel free to submit your own report! :^)

                  I thought Anita's was great.
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