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Re: TLE Article

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  • manwrshipr
    Hmmm, last I heard, voting was not a means of supporting the state but a non-violent means of overthrowing those who ran it in favor of those who at least
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 1, 2002
      Hmmm, last I heard, voting was not a means of "supporting the state"
      but a non-violent means of overthrowing those who ran it in favor of
      those who at least claim to be more receptive to the people's
      wishes. It is a tool of the people, not the state. And does this guy
      really think our free state would be something like, "Okay, you're
      free to do any non-coercive thing you want, whether you want to or
      not?"

      Methinks the author is one of *those* kind of libertarians who, like
      many Objectivists, are perfectly happy to sit around and meditate and
      theorize on what a free society would be like, but balk at the
      suggestion that they get off their sophist asses and do something
      about it. What attracted me to FSP was that it is the most practical
      means I've seen suggested on how to create a free society within our
      lifetimes, certainly more practical than say, building a whopping big
      concrete island in the middle of the ocean and expecting the billions
      of dollars it would take to magically drop out of the sky, or
      expecting that, if we just theorize and proselytize about it long
      enough, Galt's Gulch or Laissez-Fairia will pop Athena-like out of
      everyone's skulls.
    • simplulo
      ... Voting is a tool of the (super)majority against the minority. If your constitution allows voting to achieve legal plunder, it will happen. Speaking of
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 1, 2002
        >[Voting] is a tool of the people, not the state.

        Voting is a tool of the (super)majority against the minority. If
        your constitution allows voting to achieve legal plunder, it will
        happen. Speaking of which, has anybody actually gotten through "The
        Calculus of Consent" by James Buchanan and Gordon Tullock? I brought
        it with me here to Finland, but I keep going to bars instead of
        reading. Anyway, voting has a *lot* of problems (we had a discussion
        about this in the FSP's early days, which is how we picked such a
        strange voting method to choose the destination state), and the essay
        author is right to be suspicious of it. But he's still a weenie. He
        could have first checked his facts or discussed his objections with
        us before making such accusations; instead, he's smirched our
        reputation and his own.

        >Methinks the author is one of *those* kind of libertarians

        While my sympathies lie with the theoreticians (at the center of a
        movement, you better have your theoretical ducks in row, and it makes
        sense to pay attention to these kinds of details), I despise those
        who not only do not get off their sophist asses, but actively work
        *against* do.

        That is what attracted me to the FSP: while everyone is strongly
        libertarian, they have a good-humored tolerance for the variations
        that you are bound to find among 20 of us, let alone 20,000....

        --- In freestateproject@y..., "manwrshipr" <freethinker1of1@h...>
        wrote:
        > Hmmm, last I heard, voting was not a means of "supporting the
        state"
        > but a non-violent means of overthrowing those who ran it in favor
        of
        > those who at least claim to be more receptive to the people's
        > wishes. It is a tool of the people, not the state. And does this
        guy
        > really think our free state would be something like, "Okay, you're
        > free to do any non-coercive thing you want, whether you want to or
        > not?"
        >
        > Methinks the author is one of *those* kind of libertarians who,
        like
        > many Objectivists, are perfectly happy to sit around and meditate
        and
        > theorize on what a free society would be like, but balk at the
        > suggestion that they get off their sophist asses and do something
        > about it. What attracted me to FSP was that it is the most
        practical
        > means I've seen suggested on how to create a free society within
        our
        > lifetimes, certainly more practical than say, building a whopping
        big
        > concrete island in the middle of the ocean and expecting the
        billions
        > of dollars it would take to magically drop out of the sky, or
        > expecting that, if we just theorize and proselytize about it long
        > enough, Galt's Gulch or Laissez-Fairia will pop Athena-like out of
        > everyone's skulls.
      • Mary Lou Seymour
        Ifeminists.com picked yours truly as their Ifeminist of the month for July...I, of course, got in a plug for FSP:-) See my picture (the ONLY recent one in
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 1, 2002
          Ifeminists.com picked yours truly as their Ifeminist of the month for
          July...I, of course, got in a plug for FSP:-)

          See my picture (the ONLY recent one in existence:-) and bio at
          http://www.ifeminists.com/homepage/

          ML
        • James B. Sheridan
          Those who cannot paint, become art critics. ===== Will someone please invent a decent alternative fuel, so that we can tell the Middle East to go screw?
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 2, 2002
            Those who cannot paint, become art critics.

            =====
            Will someone please invent a decent alternative fuel, so that we can tell the Middle East to go screw?

            __________________________________________________
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          • Daniel Weiner
            Congrats, ML. But then, we *know* you are hot stuff! Right, gang? And I gotta tell you, ML, you are much better looking than your own comments led me to
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 2, 2002
              Congrats, ML. But then, we *know* you are hot stuff!
              Right, gang? And I gotta tell you, ML, you are much
              better looking than your own comments led me to
              expect.

              Dan

              --- Mary Lou Seymour <libertymls@...>
              wrote:
              > Ifeminists.com picked yours truly as their Ifeminist
              > of the month for
              > July...I, of course, got in a plug for FSP:-)
              >
              > See my picture (the ONLY recent one in existence:-)
              > and bio at
              > http://www.ifeminists.com/homepage/
              >
              > ML
              >


              __________________________________________________
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              Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
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            • elizabeth_freestate
              Jason is working on a response to the TLE article, but anyone who wants to write a letter to the editor of TLE is encouraged: EditorTLE@triad.rr.com ... we can
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 3, 2002
                Jason is working on a response to the TLE article, but anyone
                who wants to write a letter to the editor of TLE is encouraged:

                EditorTLE@...


                --- In freestateproject@y..., "James B. Sheridan"
                <jimmersheridan@y...> wrote:
                > Those who cannot paint, become art critics.
                >
                > =====
                > Will someone please invent a decent alternative fuel, so that
                we can tell the Middle East to go screw?
                >
                >
                __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
                > http://sbc.yahoo.com
              • Suggesto
                ... Steve, you may or may not know just how *radical* that statement above *is*! One of the things that has struck me in the 30 years or so I ve been a
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 8, 2002
                  --- In freestateproject@y..., simplulo <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > >[Voting] is a tool of the people, not the state.
                  >
                  > That is what attracted me to the FSP: while everyone is strongly
                  > libertarian, they have a good-humored tolerance for the variations
                  > that you are bound to find among 20 of us, let alone 20,000....

                  Steve, you may or may not know just how *radical* that statement
                  above *is*! One of the things that has struck me in the 30 years or so
                  I've been a libertarian is how *little* "good-humored tolerance" there
                  is among them. Everyone seems bound and determined to force everyone
                  else to "toe the line" as to their particular ideological proclivity.
                  Now if good-humored tolerance is going to be a major characteristic of
                  the FSP group, I'd suggest it will be even more successful than most
                  would expect. In fact, I suggest that GOOD-HUMORED TOLERANCE should be
                  one of the watch-words of the FSP. "Freedom in our lifetime is our
                  goal...good-humored tolerance is our byword."
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