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  • themistocles2002
    Just want to give everyone a heads up on an article in the latest TLE: http://webleyweb.com/tle/libe180-20020701-07.html It would appear that the author s main
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 30, 2002
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      Just want to give everyone a heads up on an article in the latest TLE:
      http://webleyweb.com/tle/libe180-20020701-07.html

      It would appear that the author's main criticism is in our desire
      to "play the game," to use voting as a means of achieving our goals,
      which only validates the system. Okay, fine, I understand his
      philosophical objection, even agree with it to an extent, but I feel
      perfectly justified in voting if the intent is not to establish
      ourselves as the powerful, but to make sure no one has that power.
      This is obviously where we and the author see our project
      differently, as he accuses us of wanting "to gain money and power to
      force their agenda down the throats of unwilling people" and "to use
      the force of government to rule." He goes on to make a great many
      other assertions which indicate a gross misunderstanding of what it
      is we intend to do.

      I suggest everyone take a look at this article and use it as a
      learning tool. I have no idea why the author views us as wannabe
      tyrants, but perhaps there is something we can learn regarding how we
      describe our project and our goals.
    • simplulo
      Excellent assessment. ... we ... Excellent advice. In describing ourselves, we need to meet people more than halfway, removing doubt about our goals. The
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 1 5:54 AM
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        Excellent assessment.

        > I suggest everyone take a look at this article and use it as a
        > learning tool. I have no idea why the author views us as wannabe
        > tyrants, but perhaps there is something we can learn regarding how
        we
        > describe our project and our goals.

        Excellent advice. In describing ourselves, we need to meet people
        more than halfway, removing doubt about our goals. The catch is that
        the more you write, the more opportunity there is to disagree over
        fine points. But it was just this sort of concern that led me to
        propose the minor wording changes to remove ammunition of nitpickers;
        little did I imagine that another one would pop up so soon.

        >I feel perfectly justified in voting if the intent is not to
        >establish ourselves as the powerful, but to make sure no one has
        that power.

        Is using voting to *reduce* the initiation of force (e.g. to repeal
        taxes, regulations, and vice prohibitions) not akin to retaliatory
        force in defense of rights? That is, is there legitimate voting as
        well as unjust voting, as there is legitimate force as well as unjust
        force?

        If you use force to aid a woman being gang-raped, that is anti-
        democratic but just. If we use voting to aid the existing
        libertarians of the chosen state, is that not also just?

        --- In freestateproject@y..., themistocles2002 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > Just want to give everyone a heads up on an article in the latest
        TLE:
        > http://webleyweb.com/tle/libe180-20020701-07.html
        >
        > It would appear that the author's main criticism is in our desire
        > to "play the game," to use voting as a means of achieving our
        goals,
        > which only validates the system. Okay, fine, I understand his
        > philosophical objection, even agree with it to an extent, but I
        feel
        > perfectly justified in voting if the intent is not to establish
        > ourselves as the powerful, but to make sure no one has that power.
        > This is obviously where we and the author see our project
        > differently, as he accuses us of wanting "to gain money and power
        to
        > force their agenda down the throats of unwilling people" and "to
        use
        > the force of government to rule." He goes on to make a great many
        > other assertions which indicate a gross misunderstanding of what it
        > is we intend to do.
        >
        > I suggest everyone take a look at this article and use it as a
        > learning tool. I have no idea why the author views us as wannabe
        > tyrants, but perhaps there is something we can learn regarding how
        we
        > describe our project and our goals.
      • manwrshipr
        Hmmm, last I heard, voting was not a means of supporting the state but a non-violent means of overthrowing those who ran it in favor of those who at least
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 1 11:49 AM
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          Hmmm, last I heard, voting was not a means of "supporting the state"
          but a non-violent means of overthrowing those who ran it in favor of
          those who at least claim to be more receptive to the people's
          wishes. It is a tool of the people, not the state. And does this guy
          really think our free state would be something like, "Okay, you're
          free to do any non-coercive thing you want, whether you want to or
          not?"

          Methinks the author is one of *those* kind of libertarians who, like
          many Objectivists, are perfectly happy to sit around and meditate and
          theorize on what a free society would be like, but balk at the
          suggestion that they get off their sophist asses and do something
          about it. What attracted me to FSP was that it is the most practical
          means I've seen suggested on how to create a free society within our
          lifetimes, certainly more practical than say, building a whopping big
          concrete island in the middle of the ocean and expecting the billions
          of dollars it would take to magically drop out of the sky, or
          expecting that, if we just theorize and proselytize about it long
          enough, Galt's Gulch or Laissez-Fairia will pop Athena-like out of
          everyone's skulls.
        • simplulo
          ... Voting is a tool of the (super)majority against the minority. If your constitution allows voting to achieve legal plunder, it will happen. Speaking of
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 1 12:54 PM
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            >[Voting] is a tool of the people, not the state.

            Voting is a tool of the (super)majority against the minority. If
            your constitution allows voting to achieve legal plunder, it will
            happen. Speaking of which, has anybody actually gotten through "The
            Calculus of Consent" by James Buchanan and Gordon Tullock? I brought
            it with me here to Finland, but I keep going to bars instead of
            reading. Anyway, voting has a *lot* of problems (we had a discussion
            about this in the FSP's early days, which is how we picked such a
            strange voting method to choose the destination state), and the essay
            author is right to be suspicious of it. But he's still a weenie. He
            could have first checked his facts or discussed his objections with
            us before making such accusations; instead, he's smirched our
            reputation and his own.

            >Methinks the author is one of *those* kind of libertarians

            While my sympathies lie with the theoreticians (at the center of a
            movement, you better have your theoretical ducks in row, and it makes
            sense to pay attention to these kinds of details), I despise those
            who not only do not get off their sophist asses, but actively work
            *against* do.

            That is what attracted me to the FSP: while everyone is strongly
            libertarian, they have a good-humored tolerance for the variations
            that you are bound to find among 20 of us, let alone 20,000....

            --- In freestateproject@y..., "manwrshipr" <freethinker1of1@h...>
            wrote:
            > Hmmm, last I heard, voting was not a means of "supporting the
            state"
            > but a non-violent means of overthrowing those who ran it in favor
            of
            > those who at least claim to be more receptive to the people's
            > wishes. It is a tool of the people, not the state. And does this
            guy
            > really think our free state would be something like, "Okay, you're
            > free to do any non-coercive thing you want, whether you want to or
            > not?"
            >
            > Methinks the author is one of *those* kind of libertarians who,
            like
            > many Objectivists, are perfectly happy to sit around and meditate
            and
            > theorize on what a free society would be like, but balk at the
            > suggestion that they get off their sophist asses and do something
            > about it. What attracted me to FSP was that it is the most
            practical
            > means I've seen suggested on how to create a free society within
            our
            > lifetimes, certainly more practical than say, building a whopping
            big
            > concrete island in the middle of the ocean and expecting the
            billions
            > of dollars it would take to magically drop out of the sky, or
            > expecting that, if we just theorize and proselytize about it long
            > enough, Galt's Gulch or Laissez-Fairia will pop Athena-like out of
            > everyone's skulls.
          • Mary Lou Seymour
            Ifeminists.com picked yours truly as their Ifeminist of the month for July...I, of course, got in a plug for FSP:-) See my picture (the ONLY recent one in
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 1 4:05 PM
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              Ifeminists.com picked yours truly as their Ifeminist of the month for
              July...I, of course, got in a plug for FSP:-)

              See my picture (the ONLY recent one in existence:-) and bio at
              http://www.ifeminists.com/homepage/

              ML
            • James B. Sheridan
              Those who cannot paint, become art critics. ===== Will someone please invent a decent alternative fuel, so that we can tell the Middle East to go screw?
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 2 1:25 PM
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                Those who cannot paint, become art critics.

                =====
                Will someone please invent a decent alternative fuel, so that we can tell the Middle East to go screw?

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
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              • Daniel Weiner
                Congrats, ML. But then, we *know* you are hot stuff! Right, gang? And I gotta tell you, ML, you are much better looking than your own comments led me to
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 2 7:43 PM
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                  Congrats, ML. But then, we *know* you are hot stuff!
                  Right, gang? And I gotta tell you, ML, you are much
                  better looking than your own comments led me to
                  expect.

                  Dan

                  --- Mary Lou Seymour <libertymls@...>
                  wrote:
                  > Ifeminists.com picked yours truly as their Ifeminist
                  > of the month for
                  > July...I, of course, got in a plug for FSP:-)
                  >
                  > See my picture (the ONLY recent one in existence:-)
                  > and bio at
                  > http://www.ifeminists.com/homepage/
                  >
                  > ML
                  >


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
                  http://sbc.yahoo.com
                • elizabeth_freestate
                  Jason is working on a response to the TLE article, but anyone who wants to write a letter to the editor of TLE is encouraged: EditorTLE@triad.rr.com ... we can
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 3 10:59 AM
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                    Jason is working on a response to the TLE article, but anyone
                    who wants to write a letter to the editor of TLE is encouraged:

                    EditorTLE@...


                    --- In freestateproject@y..., "James B. Sheridan"
                    <jimmersheridan@y...> wrote:
                    > Those who cannot paint, become art critics.
                    >
                    > =====
                    > Will someone please invent a decent alternative fuel, so that
                    we can tell the Middle East to go screw?
                    >
                    >
                    __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
                    > http://sbc.yahoo.com
                  • Suggesto
                    ... Steve, you may or may not know just how *radical* that statement above *is*! One of the things that has struck me in the 30 years or so I ve been a
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 8 2:35 PM
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                      --- In freestateproject@y..., simplulo <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > >[Voting] is a tool of the people, not the state.
                      >
                      > That is what attracted me to the FSP: while everyone is strongly
                      > libertarian, they have a good-humored tolerance for the variations
                      > that you are bound to find among 20 of us, let alone 20,000....

                      Steve, you may or may not know just how *radical* that statement
                      above *is*! One of the things that has struck me in the 30 years or so
                      I've been a libertarian is how *little* "good-humored tolerance" there
                      is among them. Everyone seems bound and determined to force everyone
                      else to "toe the line" as to their particular ideological proclivity.
                      Now if good-humored tolerance is going to be a major characteristic of
                      the FSP group, I'd suggest it will be even more successful than most
                      would expect. In fact, I suggest that GOOD-HUMORED TOLERANCE should be
                      one of the watch-words of the FSP. "Freedom in our lifetime is our
                      goal...good-humored tolerance is our byword."
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