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Re: [FSP] State planning

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  • Dan Weiner
    The only reason not to is that all that data could get confusing. While too much is far better than too little information, I hope some attention is given to
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 23, 2002
      The only reason not to is that all that data could get confusing. While too much is far better than too little information, I hope some attention is given to making the data useful....so far, I have found some of it difficult to follow, due to odd groupings and abbreviations.

      Dan Weiner

      Chocolate: It's not just for breakfast anymore.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Mary Lou Seymour
      To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 9:01 PM
      Subject: [FSP] State planning


      While researching an article I'm doing for FMN, I ran into this resource
      http://www.planning.org/growingsmart/states2002.htm

      Which shows how "well" states are doing in reaching their
      "comprehensive govt planning/smart growth" goals.

      The states in dark red, the "holdouts" are ones we should be particularly
      interested in.

      Can we add this resource to the state data page?

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    • Debra Ricketts
      It s my understanding that the state research group is going to be making a big old spreadsheet with all the data on it. You know what I d like to see? A
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 23, 2002
        It's my understanding that the state research group is going to be making a
        big old spreadsheet with all the data on it.

        You know what I'd like to see? A searchable database of the various states,
        where you can rank them according to whatever category you want.
        Yeah...that'd be cool. :)


        Debra J. Ricketts
        --------------------------------------
        The Free State Project - Liberty in Our Lifetime
        http://www.freestateproject.org


        At 02:23 AM 6/23/2002 -0500, you wrote:
        >The only reason not to is that all that data could get confusing. While
        >too much is far better than too little information, I hope some attention
        >is given to making the data useful....so far, I have found some of it
        >difficult to follow, due to odd groupings and abbreviations.
        >
        >Dan Weiner
        >
        >Chocolate: It's not just for breakfast anymore.
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Mary Lou Seymour
        > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 9:01 PM
        > Subject: [FSP] State planning
        >
        >
        > While researching an article I'm doing for FMN, I ran into this resource
        > http://www.planning.org/growingsmart/states2002.htm
        >
        > Which shows how "well" states are doing in reaching their
        > "comprehensive govt planning/smart growth" goals.
        >
        > The states in dark red, the "holdouts" are ones we should be particularly
        > interested in.
        >
        > Can we add this resource to the state data page?
        >
        >
      • Mary Lou Seymour
        Sounds great to me. I hadn t remembered (if I ever knew) who was on the state research committee, or I d have sent it direct to them. (I remember when we were
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 23, 2002
          Sounds great to me. I hadn't remembered (if I ever knew) who was on
          the state research committee, or I'd have sent it direct to them. (I
          remember when we were first coming up with the "criteria" last fall, this is
          one I SHOULD have thought of, but didn't. How state citizens are
          reacting to govt land use planning is an excellent measure of the
          "freedom potential" of a state.

          BTW... maybe it'd be good to list the committees somewhere on the web
          pg?

          > It's my understanding that the state research group is going to be
          > making a big old spreadsheet with all the data on it.
          >
          > You know what I'd like to see? A searchable database of the various
          > states, where you can rank them according to whatever category you
          > want. Yeah...that'd be cool. :)
          >
          >
          > Debra J. Ricketts
          > --------------------------------------
          > The Free State Project - Liberty in Our Lifetime
          > http://www.freestateproject.org
          >
          >
          > At 02:23 AM 6/23/2002 -0500, you wrote:
          > >The only reason not to is that all that data could get confusing.
          > >While too much is far better than too little information, I hope some
          > >attention is given to making the data useful....so far, I have found
          > >some of it difficult to follow, due to odd groupings and
          > >abbreviations.
          > >
          > >Dan Weiner
          > >
          > >Chocolate: It's not just for breakfast anymore.
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Mary Lou Seymour
          > > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 9:01 PM
          > > Subject: [FSP] State planning
          > >
          > >
          > > While researching an article I'm doing for FMN, I ran into this
          > > resource http://www.planning.org/growingsmart/states2002.htm
          > >
          > > Which shows how "well" states are doing in reaching their
          > > "comprehensive govt planning/smart growth" goals.
          > >
          > > The states in dark red, the "holdouts" are ones we should be
          > > particularly interested in.
          > >
          > > Can we add this resource to the state data page?
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
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        • Mary Lou Seymour
          A week or so ago, in the midst of the list uproar, I mentioned the possibility of FSP holding an essay contest for kids, subject something like Why I want
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 23, 2002
            A week or so ago, in the midst of the "list" uproar, I mentioned the
            possibility of FSP holding an essay contest for kids, subject something
            like "Why I want my parents to move to a Free State".

            Before I totally forget about it, let me add a few details for thought...

            I have been a judge for the Liberty Round Table annual essay contest for
            several years. How we do it is, people volunteer to be judges by
            "pledging" a certain amount of $$. The judges are then sent the essays
            (in 4 different age categories, 0-13, 14-16, 17-18 and 18-21) and we pick
            winners (4 prizes each category.) The winners are announced and the
            "contest meister" tells each Judge who to send $$ to. (For example, if a
            Judge pledges $20, he can be directed to send $5 each to 4 honorable
            mentions, or 1 4th place winner.) The LRT contest has BIG prizes (top
            prize is $1000) I dont think we need to try to emulate that... but the idea
            is that no $$ has to be collected and kept in a central treasury etc.)

            Suggestions:
            I'd suggest 2 categories
            0-13 and 14-18.
            Prizes:
            1st $100
            2nd $50
            3rd $25
            4th: FSP T-shirt (or somesuch)

            Total would be $350. I'd guess we can get enough FSPers to come up
            with that much... and this would be well worth it in PR value.

            Thoughts? Finance/pub committee?
          • simplulo
            I like the idea--we certainly need more essay material. I have no experience with either essay contests or children, so I trust your judgment about the prize
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 23, 2002
              I like the idea--we certainly need more essay material.
              I have no experience with either essay contests or children, so I
              trust your judgment about the prize levels necessary to attract
              participation. I would chip in, but could I pay *not* to be a judge?
              I wouldn't have time now to read all those essays.... ;-)

              --- In freestateproject@y..., "Mary Lou Seymour" <libertymls@f...>
              wrote:
              > A week or so ago, in the midst of the "list" uproar, I mentioned
              the
              > possibility of FSP holding an essay contest for kids, subject
              something
              > like "Why I want my parents to move to a Free State".
              >
              > Before I totally forget about it, let me add a few details for
              thought...
              >
              > I have been a judge for the Liberty Round Table annual essay
              contest for
              > several years. How we do it is, people volunteer to be judges by
              > "pledging" a certain amount of $$. The judges are then sent the
              essays
              > (in 4 different age categories, 0-13, 14-16, 17-18 and 18-21) and
              we pick
              > winners (4 prizes each category.) The winners are announced and the
              > "contest meister" tells each Judge who to send $$ to. (For example,
              if a
              > Judge pledges $20, he can be directed to send $5 each to 4
              honorable
              > mentions, or 1 4th place winner.) The LRT contest has BIG prizes
              (top
              > prize is $1000) I dont think we need to try to emulate that... but
              the idea
              > is that no $$ has to be collected and kept in a central treasury
              etc.)
              >
              > Suggestions:
              > I'd suggest 2 categories
              > 0-13 and 14-18.
              > Prizes:
              > 1st $100
              > 2nd $50
              > 3rd $25
              > 4th: FSP T-shirt (or somesuch)
              >
              > Total would be $350. I'd guess we can get enough FSPers to come up
              > with that much... and this would be well worth it in PR value.
              >
              > Thoughts? Finance/pub committee?
            • Mary Lou Seymour
              ... It doesn t take THAT long to read the essays:-) But, I don t see why someone couldnt contribute but not be a judge... we do need several judges though, to
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 23, 2002
                > I like the idea--we certainly need more essay material.
                > I have no experience with either essay contests or children, so I
                > trust your judgment about the prize levels necessary to attract
                > participation. I would chip in, but could I pay *not* to be a judge?
                > I wouldn't have time now to read all those essays.... ;-)

                It doesn't take THAT long to read the essays:-) But, I don't see why
                someone couldnt contribute but not be a judge... we do need several
                judges though, to spread the burden, also to get a greater variety of
                "view points" into the judging mix.

                Like I said, LRT offers substantially larger prizes, but, I personally think
                we could get by at the level I mentioned.

                At any rate, I will pledge $25 to the effort, if and when it is approved by
                the FR committee.
              • Anita Joule
                ... Hi, I am fairly new to the list and have not yet become an official member of FSP but I would be interested in helping with the essays. I have some spare
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 23, 2002
                  Mary Lou Seymour wrote:

                  > > I like the idea--we certainly need more essay material.
                  > > I have no experience with either essay contests or children, so I
                  > > trust your judgment about the prize levels necessary to attract
                  > > participation. I would chip in, but could I pay *not* to be a judge?
                  > > I wouldn't have time now to read all those essays.... ;-)
                  >
                  > It doesn't take THAT long to read the essays:-) ... we do need several
                  > judges though, to spread the burden, also to get a greater variety of
                  > "view points" into the judging mix.

                  Hi,
                  I am fairly new to the list and have not yet become an official member
                  of FSP but I would be interested in helping with the essays. I have
                  some spare time and experience with kids of various ages. I am a
                  homeschool parent, private tutor, and teacher's assistent at our local
                  university. If you are interested in having me help just holler.

                  Anita
                • themistocles2002
                  Just want to give everyone a heads up on an article in the latest TLE: http://webleyweb.com/tle/libe180-20020701-07.html It would appear that the author s main
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 30, 2002
                    Just want to give everyone a heads up on an article in the latest TLE:
                    http://webleyweb.com/tle/libe180-20020701-07.html

                    It would appear that the author's main criticism is in our desire
                    to "play the game," to use voting as a means of achieving our goals,
                    which only validates the system. Okay, fine, I understand his
                    philosophical objection, even agree with it to an extent, but I feel
                    perfectly justified in voting if the intent is not to establish
                    ourselves as the powerful, but to make sure no one has that power.
                    This is obviously where we and the author see our project
                    differently, as he accuses us of wanting "to gain money and power to
                    force their agenda down the throats of unwilling people" and "to use
                    the force of government to rule." He goes on to make a great many
                    other assertions which indicate a gross misunderstanding of what it
                    is we intend to do.

                    I suggest everyone take a look at this article and use it as a
                    learning tool. I have no idea why the author views us as wannabe
                    tyrants, but perhaps there is something we can learn regarding how we
                    describe our project and our goals.
                  • simplulo
                    Excellent assessment. ... we ... Excellent advice. In describing ourselves, we need to meet people more than halfway, removing doubt about our goals. The
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 1, 2002
                      Excellent assessment.

                      > I suggest everyone take a look at this article and use it as a
                      > learning tool. I have no idea why the author views us as wannabe
                      > tyrants, but perhaps there is something we can learn regarding how
                      we
                      > describe our project and our goals.

                      Excellent advice. In describing ourselves, we need to meet people
                      more than halfway, removing doubt about our goals. The catch is that
                      the more you write, the more opportunity there is to disagree over
                      fine points. But it was just this sort of concern that led me to
                      propose the minor wording changes to remove ammunition of nitpickers;
                      little did I imagine that another one would pop up so soon.

                      >I feel perfectly justified in voting if the intent is not to
                      >establish ourselves as the powerful, but to make sure no one has
                      that power.

                      Is using voting to *reduce* the initiation of force (e.g. to repeal
                      taxes, regulations, and vice prohibitions) not akin to retaliatory
                      force in defense of rights? That is, is there legitimate voting as
                      well as unjust voting, as there is legitimate force as well as unjust
                      force?

                      If you use force to aid a woman being gang-raped, that is anti-
                      democratic but just. If we use voting to aid the existing
                      libertarians of the chosen state, is that not also just?

                      --- In freestateproject@y..., themistocles2002 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > Just want to give everyone a heads up on an article in the latest
                      TLE:
                      > http://webleyweb.com/tle/libe180-20020701-07.html
                      >
                      > It would appear that the author's main criticism is in our desire
                      > to "play the game," to use voting as a means of achieving our
                      goals,
                      > which only validates the system. Okay, fine, I understand his
                      > philosophical objection, even agree with it to an extent, but I
                      feel
                      > perfectly justified in voting if the intent is not to establish
                      > ourselves as the powerful, but to make sure no one has that power.
                      > This is obviously where we and the author see our project
                      > differently, as he accuses us of wanting "to gain money and power
                      to
                      > force their agenda down the throats of unwilling people" and "to
                      use
                      > the force of government to rule." He goes on to make a great many
                      > other assertions which indicate a gross misunderstanding of what it
                      > is we intend to do.
                      >
                      > I suggest everyone take a look at this article and use it as a
                      > learning tool. I have no idea why the author views us as wannabe
                      > tyrants, but perhaps there is something we can learn regarding how
                      we
                      > describe our project and our goals.
                    • manwrshipr
                      Hmmm, last I heard, voting was not a means of supporting the state but a non-violent means of overthrowing those who ran it in favor of those who at least
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 1, 2002
                        Hmmm, last I heard, voting was not a means of "supporting the state"
                        but a non-violent means of overthrowing those who ran it in favor of
                        those who at least claim to be more receptive to the people's
                        wishes. It is a tool of the people, not the state. And does this guy
                        really think our free state would be something like, "Okay, you're
                        free to do any non-coercive thing you want, whether you want to or
                        not?"

                        Methinks the author is one of *those* kind of libertarians who, like
                        many Objectivists, are perfectly happy to sit around and meditate and
                        theorize on what a free society would be like, but balk at the
                        suggestion that they get off their sophist asses and do something
                        about it. What attracted me to FSP was that it is the most practical
                        means I've seen suggested on how to create a free society within our
                        lifetimes, certainly more practical than say, building a whopping big
                        concrete island in the middle of the ocean and expecting the billions
                        of dollars it would take to magically drop out of the sky, or
                        expecting that, if we just theorize and proselytize about it long
                        enough, Galt's Gulch or Laissez-Fairia will pop Athena-like out of
                        everyone's skulls.
                      • simplulo
                        ... Voting is a tool of the (super)majority against the minority. If your constitution allows voting to achieve legal plunder, it will happen. Speaking of
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 1, 2002
                          >[Voting] is a tool of the people, not the state.

                          Voting is a tool of the (super)majority against the minority. If
                          your constitution allows voting to achieve legal plunder, it will
                          happen. Speaking of which, has anybody actually gotten through "The
                          Calculus of Consent" by James Buchanan and Gordon Tullock? I brought
                          it with me here to Finland, but I keep going to bars instead of
                          reading. Anyway, voting has a *lot* of problems (we had a discussion
                          about this in the FSP's early days, which is how we picked such a
                          strange voting method to choose the destination state), and the essay
                          author is right to be suspicious of it. But he's still a weenie. He
                          could have first checked his facts or discussed his objections with
                          us before making such accusations; instead, he's smirched our
                          reputation and his own.

                          >Methinks the author is one of *those* kind of libertarians

                          While my sympathies lie with the theoreticians (at the center of a
                          movement, you better have your theoretical ducks in row, and it makes
                          sense to pay attention to these kinds of details), I despise those
                          who not only do not get off their sophist asses, but actively work
                          *against* do.

                          That is what attracted me to the FSP: while everyone is strongly
                          libertarian, they have a good-humored tolerance for the variations
                          that you are bound to find among 20 of us, let alone 20,000....

                          --- In freestateproject@y..., "manwrshipr" <freethinker1of1@h...>
                          wrote:
                          > Hmmm, last I heard, voting was not a means of "supporting the
                          state"
                          > but a non-violent means of overthrowing those who ran it in favor
                          of
                          > those who at least claim to be more receptive to the people's
                          > wishes. It is a tool of the people, not the state. And does this
                          guy
                          > really think our free state would be something like, "Okay, you're
                          > free to do any non-coercive thing you want, whether you want to or
                          > not?"
                          >
                          > Methinks the author is one of *those* kind of libertarians who,
                          like
                          > many Objectivists, are perfectly happy to sit around and meditate
                          and
                          > theorize on what a free society would be like, but balk at the
                          > suggestion that they get off their sophist asses and do something
                          > about it. What attracted me to FSP was that it is the most
                          practical
                          > means I've seen suggested on how to create a free society within
                          our
                          > lifetimes, certainly more practical than say, building a whopping
                          big
                          > concrete island in the middle of the ocean and expecting the
                          billions
                          > of dollars it would take to magically drop out of the sky, or
                          > expecting that, if we just theorize and proselytize about it long
                          > enough, Galt's Gulch or Laissez-Fairia will pop Athena-like out of
                          > everyone's skulls.
                        • Mary Lou Seymour
                          Ifeminists.com picked yours truly as their Ifeminist of the month for July...I, of course, got in a plug for FSP:-) See my picture (the ONLY recent one in
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 1, 2002
                            Ifeminists.com picked yours truly as their Ifeminist of the month for
                            July...I, of course, got in a plug for FSP:-)

                            See my picture (the ONLY recent one in existence:-) and bio at
                            http://www.ifeminists.com/homepage/

                            ML
                          • James B. Sheridan
                            Those who cannot paint, become art critics. ===== Will someone please invent a decent alternative fuel, so that we can tell the Middle East to go screw?
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 2, 2002
                              Those who cannot paint, become art critics.

                              =====
                              Will someone please invent a decent alternative fuel, so that we can tell the Middle East to go screw?

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                            • Daniel Weiner
                              Congrats, ML. But then, we *know* you are hot stuff! Right, gang? And I gotta tell you, ML, you are much better looking than your own comments led me to
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jul 2, 2002
                                Congrats, ML. But then, we *know* you are hot stuff!
                                Right, gang? And I gotta tell you, ML, you are much
                                better looking than your own comments led me to
                                expect.

                                Dan

                                --- Mary Lou Seymour <libertymls@...>
                                wrote:
                                > Ifeminists.com picked yours truly as their Ifeminist
                                > of the month for
                                > July...I, of course, got in a plug for FSP:-)
                                >
                                > See my picture (the ONLY recent one in existence:-)
                                > and bio at
                                > http://www.ifeminists.com/homepage/
                                >
                                > ML
                                >


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                              • elizabeth_freestate
                                Jason is working on a response to the TLE article, but anyone who wants to write a letter to the editor of TLE is encouraged: EditorTLE@triad.rr.com ... we can
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jul 3, 2002
                                  Jason is working on a response to the TLE article, but anyone
                                  who wants to write a letter to the editor of TLE is encouraged:

                                  EditorTLE@...


                                  --- In freestateproject@y..., "James B. Sheridan"
                                  <jimmersheridan@y...> wrote:
                                  > Those who cannot paint, become art critics.
                                  >
                                  > =====
                                  > Will someone please invent a decent alternative fuel, so that
                                  we can tell the Middle East to go screw?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  __________________________________________________
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                                  > Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
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                                • Suggesto
                                  ... Steve, you may or may not know just how *radical* that statement above *is*! One of the things that has struck me in the 30 years or so I ve been a
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jul 8, 2002
                                    --- In freestateproject@y..., simplulo <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                    > >[Voting] is a tool of the people, not the state.
                                    >
                                    > That is what attracted me to the FSP: while everyone is strongly
                                    > libertarian, they have a good-humored tolerance for the variations
                                    > that you are bound to find among 20 of us, let alone 20,000....

                                    Steve, you may or may not know just how *radical* that statement
                                    above *is*! One of the things that has struck me in the 30 years or so
                                    I've been a libertarian is how *little* "good-humored tolerance" there
                                    is among them. Everyone seems bound and determined to force everyone
                                    else to "toe the line" as to their particular ideological proclivity.
                                    Now if good-humored tolerance is going to be a major characteristic of
                                    the FSP group, I'd suggest it will be even more successful than most
                                    would expect. In fact, I suggest that GOOD-HUMORED TOLERANCE should be
                                    one of the watch-words of the FSP. "Freedom in our lifetime is our
                                    goal...good-humored tolerance is our byword."
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