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Re: [Bulk] Fwd: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians

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  • GaryT
    I have tried to register for the full package and the special $100 luncheon, but the website bill pay keeps saying invalid transaction, I have tried 3 cc s
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 17 9:43 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      I have tried to register for the full package and the special $100 luncheon, but the website bill pay keeps saying invalid transaction, I have tried 3 cc's that I know are good. wtf?

      I am trying, but am being stymied. How else can I register and pay?

      Gary T
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Tim Condon
      To: Gary Trieste
      Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 7:23 AM
      Subject: [Bulk] Fwd: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians


      Oops. Check out the FSP Liberty Forum here.





      ---------- Forwarded message ----------
      From: Tim Condon <tim@...>
      Date: Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 7:21 AM
      Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians
      To: GaryT <garyonthenet@...>


      The Liberty Forum is March 18th through the 21st, Gary. You ought to come. If you want to split a room, I've already got one reserved for that Friday and Saturday nights, and haven't put it out there for anyone on the list for a room to share. Everyone who's anyone in the FSP will be there; you can meet them all. I'll be in-state from the 17th through the 22nd;; if you want, come early and I can take you around the state and intro you to lots of people, including in the Free Town of Grafton as well as Manchester and Concord.


      Timothy Condon, Esq.
      307 S. Fielding Ave., #2
      Tampa, Florida 33606-4126
      813-251-2626 Fax 813-200-3395
      Email tim@...

      NOTE: The contents of this e-mail and attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message is prohibited.





      On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:23 AM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:

      Found your post in the junkmail fold of yahoo, luckily I check these things too.

      I wasn't contacted by any of your mentioned contacts, and when I didn't get a reply from you back then I fell back on my quiescent plan and intentions. Currently hoping to accumulate capital and verve to make the move early next year.

      I would very much like to start a coffeehouse, and have it combined with an apt or three adjoining. As you sed Concord might be it.
      I would make some trial runs with real estate brokers for the areas before then to see what is available and get a feel for the locales.

      I guess I should come to the Liberty Forum as well, when is it, March something?

      RSVP and get me back up to speed!

      Gary T

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Tim Condon
      To: GaryT
      Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:38 AM
      Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians


      Gary, I just ran across your email below. How are you doing in making plans to join us in the Free State? Did you ever get together with others "on the ground" in NH and talk to them? ---Tim Condon


      On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:40 AM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:

      Aww shux, I wasn't tawkin about you!
      Nah, the fact that you are a freedom activist already puts you four notches above anyone I was speaking of, you might even have a few more notches than that, but I don't know you well enough.

      You sure did read my mind about the nubile young things, aww but thats so crass :^))
      College towns have so much to offer, I really love them.

      I do believe there is an open mindedness in them, students are open minded by circumstance and are willing to entertain things that most would otherwise dismiss.
      Yes, Obama was voted in by them, and they were instrumental in promoting his campaign. But I have two things to say about that.
      1. The Obama campaign was a class act, headlined by a very accomplished orator. What he promised and the vistas he painted were very appealing, there was a promise of cleaner, fairer government, he promised to mop up and pursue all the crap of the previous adminstration. And to lay off on peoples' lifestyles. Yes, you and I knew he had strong socialist leanings even back then, (see my article on that at http://www.nolanchart.com/article4421.html), but I was have gladly withstood the brunt of his socialism if only he would have kept to his other promises. Unfortunately, he didn't even live up to his socialist ideals. Only statist ones.

      So, although I didn't vote for him, Barr while holding my nose, I easily would have not knowing anything better, and I can't fault college kids for having done so either.

      2. The fact that college students have open minds cuts both ways (or many more ways). That they currently exist in an environment that is soaked in socialist mores, is not an instrinsic commentary on the students, but rather the student leaders that make it so.
      I am certain that proffered the libertarian alternative, which is MUCH more interesting and clear and invigorating, students would make it their own.

      Libertarians often evolve from leftist or rightist backgrounds. I was once a leftist, and probably a tyranical socialist without even knowing it ;^( , but that was in my teens, and in short order I evolved into a libertarian without even knowing it. I even had a local access TV show that was essentially libertarian, but it was before I even knew of the libertarian movement.

      No but really, my direction is a nice coffeehouse of foment as a running excuse for existing. Active participation in the FSP and liberty prosyletizing in general, and of course if there is room in the legislature to run for that too.

      And by all means, bring in those people you mentioned into the conversation, share what we have said already. I need all the advice I can get, preferably in furtherance of the the type of place I would be looking for while I make base in support of the FSP.

      Thanx for the connects

      Gary T


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Tim Condon
      To: GaryT
      Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:31 AM
      Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians


      See below, Gary.


      On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 8:44 AM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:

      Tim:

      Well I am glad you conveyed that to me. I certainly want to be in the thick of it. What I purviewed in Manchester I didn't really like too much, it seemed a little run down, but that's assessment from a distance.


      That's reasonably accurate. Like any city, there are run down and nicer places. The thing about Manchester is that that's where the people are, and therefore the amenities, and therefore civilization...to some people at least. More importantly, it's where a lot of political power resides. There are towns right outside Manchester like Bedford (where Keith Murphy and his wife live, as well as Jane Aitken, who is a retired teacher and an energizer bunny in the movement). It just depends.
      Concord is sounding better. What I would like is an idyllic environs, not too rural and with an intellectually active community; the best I can describe something like that would be a college town.


      I know that. A big university nearby has always been something of a necessity for me. All those cultural happenings, all that youth and energy, all those nubile young things...and besides, someday I'm going to want to go back and study Shakespeare and English, like I should have 40 years ago. In that case, you don't want to forget Dover, which is adjacent to the largest Univ. of NH campus, and Hannover, which is where Dartmouth is. But your main aim is going to be politics and protecting freedom, right? That means after a couple of years you'll want to run for the state house, and that means you'd want to be in a place where the college kids and their commie professors don't *totally* overwhelm common sense....
      All the college towns I have seen have that really appealing combination of well kept streets and pleasant storefronts, and a community chock full of intellectual foment and open-mindedness for new ideas and change.


      Welllllll...I dunno about the open-mindedness for new ideas and change. You mean like that dumb fuck Obama? I mean, all the open-minded kids voted for him. Wow. What a deal they've created for themselves. And their kids, if they ever have any. And their grandkids. And, oh yeah, their great-grandkids will be paying off Obama's debts....
      It is what most people go through in their college years, before the world slams then down, and they become drones with no passion, and little imagination.


      You're talking about me, aren't you.... ;--)
      I have never lost that curiosity, open viewpoint and passion. But I have been witness to many who have lost it. They don't even realize it. It's very sad.


      Yep. You are talking about me. That *would* be me.
      In any case, that is what I would be looking for, for a residence, as well as room for a streetlevel coffeehouse.
      Do you think Concord would be it? Or is there a nearby town that is closer to what I envision?
      Gary T


      Yeah, in a word, Concord would probably be more like what you're looking for. It's a Democratic, statist bastion (but I repeat myself), but it's culturally nice. There are two or three colleges in and around it (there are colleges scattered all over New Hampshire, for that matter; I don't know what it is about freezing weather and colleges, but New England seems to grow 'em like mushrooms). But I think what would be best for you is to get some New Hampshire natives, as well as some Freestaters who have moved, into this conversation. I'd suggest bringing in Rep. Bill O'Brien, former Rep. Paul Mirski, Selectman Chris Lawless, Rep. Carol McGuire and her husband Dan, RLCNH Chair Jim Forsythe, and the owner of The Draft, Andy Sanborn.


      Wanna do it? They'll be delighted to yak and help. ---Tim


      From: Tim Condon
      Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:24 AM
      To: GaryT
      Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians


      Nah! I wouldn't pick Keene. It's way down there out of the way in the lower left side of the state, away from everything that's happening politically. It does have a big bunch of left-anarchist libertarians (they like to harass the local cops with stuff like mass pot smoke-ins and planting gardens in road medians; one spent a couple of months in jail voluntarily for refusing to "speak his name" to his jailers because they already had his driver's license). If I had it to do all over again, I'd live in in Concord, as that's the belly of the beast and center of state government; nice town too. Manchester of course is where "big-city" (125,000 people) civilization is. The towns in southern NH along the Mass. border are very nice also, and among the most reliably Republican-voting in the state (and the NH GOP is about to be taken over lock, stock & barrel by a combined alliance of conservatives, libertarian-conservatives, and libertarians, which means you'd be a shoo-in for state house after you've lived there for a couple of years). Anyway, before you make any decisions, you really need to talk to a representative bunch of activist Freestaters who have moved in, including Andy Sanborn (running for state senate out of Loudon, owns The Draft, a big watering hole in Concord), Jim Forsythe (chairman of the RLCNH; he's running for state senate too, out of Strafford), Dan and Carol McGuire (Carol is already in the state house; Dan will be running again this coming year and will win, out of Epsom), Bob Hull (the leader of the Free Town contingent where I lay claim to, Grafton), Keith Murphy (on the Manchester board of selectmen, also running for state house this next year, out of Bedford; owns another big watering hole in Manchester, Murphy's Taproom). Chris Lawless (out of Contoocook, where he's on the board of selectmen), and Carolyn McKinney (webmaster and mother of three with her libertarian husband, out of Amherst...just to mention a few. There are literally hundreds of others scattered all over the Free State (700+ have publicly "declared" themselves; who knows how many others there are). The PorcFest is the best place to meet all these people and more; I'll be there too (I founded the thing; put together the first one in the summer of 2004). See you there...but you oughtta go ahead and move before that! ---Tim



      On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:

      Ah yes, it is a shame, this censorship thing.

      As I have said, the moderator et al will have a purer list to the point of sterility.

      Well I will definitely make it for the next PorcFest, perhaps earlier. I was communicating with a freestater real estate agent on this list, perhaps I will scope out the available places for sale in NH. Originally I was looking in Concord or Manchester, but he suggested I look for properties in Keene. He said that Keene is a college town, with nice street visuals etc.

      I have an idea to have a place of residence that can also serve as an intellectual coffeehouse.
      We'll see. I am rather serious about moving within a year or so though.

      Gary T



      From: Tim Condon
      Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 11:02 AM
      To: Gary Trieste
      Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians


      HEH! Touche, Gary. Yeah, you DID get the "Gee treatment." I guess I'd better not post this on the FSP list, as Seth got all wee-wee'd up over the discussion. I'm much the same as you, but can't say that I'm that much a student of Christianity.


      In the meantime, when are you getting your ass to the Free State? (I can't talk much; I spend most of my time in Florida unfortunately, even though I'm a full-fledged Resident of NH.)


      Timothy Condon, Esq.
      307 S. Fielding Ave., Suite #2
      Tampa, Florida 33606
      813-251-2626 Fax 813-200-3395
      Email: tim@...






      On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:29 AM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:

      Oh? I got the "Gee" treatment. Hmmm.

      I did not deem to typify Christianity here, rather its instrumentality in forming the new govt of the United States.
      Christianity itself is a whole 'nother analysis. I am a student of Christianity, so I love jabbering about it with anyone who wants to.

      And, it is not a logical error to state that IF Christianity was crucial to the forming the of the U.S., AND IF there were no Judaism, there would be no Christianity, THEN Judaism was as tautologically crucial to the forming of the U.S.

      You speak of logical errors, and you commit the most classical one, correllation does not prove causation, i.e. the enlightenment philosophers.
      Your logic:
      "Because the Enlightenment philosophers came from Europe, and because Christianity was the incumbent ruling religion, then Enlightenment philosophy must come from Christianity."
      (. . . but of course, what else could it be? :^/ jeesh.)

      Of course that ignores mutually exclusive examples that show otherwise, namely the ossified state of philosophy, under Christian rule which affirmatively criminalized heresy (defined as anything challenging the Church's construction of the world and universe).
      for 2000 years Aristotle was the beginning and end all of anything science or cosmic. There was no philosophical growth or improvement, almost by edict. It was only when science became so obvious and existentially powerful that philosphers were compelled to question, then challenge Christian cosmology and governmental philosophy, that we had the age of englightenment.
      It wasn't because of Christianity, it was in spite of it.

      And of course the founding fathers, given the circumstance and environs, would be forced to pay lip service to Christianity; the proof in what they really believed is in how much constitutional power they gave Christianity in the forming of the U.S. - and you know the answer to that one.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Tim Condon
      To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 11:18 PM
      Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians



      Gee Gary. Multiple logical errors in that one posting. I don't really think
      it logically follows that "we must thank Judaism for the U.S...." etc. I
      also don't think that was what Rothbard had in mind, nor do I think he'd
      agree with that kind of solipsism. And where did the Enlightenment
      philosophers come from? The same places as the Enlightenment philosophers
      that sprang up in central Africa and in the Islamic world in the 17th and
      18th centuries, right? Ahem. If you think that Christianity is just a group
      with a holy book with "an amalgam of parables and moral stores that say just
      about everything at once," I'm afraid you're a *little* bit
      misinformed...not to mention placing yourself at odds with virtually every
      one of the Founding Fathers. But big deal, right? What did they do anyway?
      ---Tim Condon

      On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 3:09 PM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:

      > And of course we must thank Judaism for the United States, for without that
      > there would have been no Christianity.
      >
      > I tend to think that Christianity just happened to be there; the original
      > principles that America was founded upon came about from Enlightenment
      > Philosophers, like Locke, Bacon, etc.
      > Christianity was there for the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, and
      > pogroms and the invasion of South America. Christianity has as its holy
      > book, an amalgam of parables and moral stories that say just about
      > everything at once, there isn't much there that isn't also contradicted or
      > marginalized logically somewhere else within the same book.
      >
      > The point is, Christianity as a moral or political force can be anything
      > and has been, from monarchiesa, to dictatorships, to benign friendly
      > nations, to whatever. It is a slippery definition, because it has so many.
      >
      > Gary T
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Tim Condon
      > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 2:31 AM
      > Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians
      >
      >
      >
      > At the first annual PorcFest, NH state Rep. Henry McElroy gave a speech in
      > which he said exactly that (he even had a Bible as a teaching aid). I'm
      > not
      > much of a Christian (it's hard to get there), but I don't see anything
      > wrong
      > with recognizing the historical reality that all our freedoms, and Western
      > Civilization itself, would never have come about about but for
      > Christianity.
      > Don't attack me. I'm just quoting anarchist libertarian hero Dr. Murray
      > Rothbard.
      >
      > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 1:02 AM, wolzybk <phil@...> wrote:
      >
      > > The big "if" is the "if it will move the goal forward". Someone might be
      > > 80%, or 90%, or 99.44% libertarian in his ideas, but if he's actively
      > > pursuing the *other* ideas, then it may not be enough. Conversely,
      > someone
      > > might be 5% libertarian, but if he is most active on that one
      > > freedom-related idea he does have, then he might well advance the goal.
      > > It's not necessarily about "purity", but about what it is that person is
      > > really trying to accomplish.
      > >
      > > A good example of this for me is the Constitution Party. They call
      > > themselves that, and they sometimes talk a good game of respecting the
      > > Constitution. If you issued them a libertarian questionnaire, they'd
      > score
      > > quite highly on it as a percentage. But if you get down to what they
      > really
      > > believe and work for, they believe as a party that the Constitution (and
      > > everything else) is subordinate to the Bible, and that America is a
      > > Christian country and should be governed that way. Which is a profoundly
      > > NON-libertarian idea, yet is the rock-bottom basis for their belief
      > system.
      > >
      > > So while I am perfectly happy to work with that party and the members of
      > it
      > > on common interests, I am very leery of helping them to have enough
      > power
      > > and influence to pursue their full agenda.
      > >
      > > These are the sorts of considerations that must be addressed to see if
      > > someone is an asset or a barrier to "moving the goal forward", in a
      > > practical real-world sense. Not just "what do they say?", or even "what
      > do
      > > they believe?", but "what are they trying to actually do?"
      > >
      > > PhilB
      > >
      > > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "GaryT" <garyonthenet@...>
      > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Well then, I guess you will be able to work with 100% of the people
      > and
      > > politicians, since almost everyone in America is at least 80%
      > libertarian.
      > > >
      > > > I would work with anyone who would help move the libertarian cause
      > > forward, the question is, are the 80%'ers willing to work with
      > libertarians
      > > - mostly I don't think so.
      > > >
      > > > Gary T

      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: Chris Lawless
      > > > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 7:28 AM
      > > > Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: Moderators: please do your job - too many non
      > > FSP posts
      > > >
      > > > ... I would rather an active 80% ally then a purist who is not active
      > > if it will move the goal forward.
      > > >
      > > > ****************************************
      > > >
      > > > I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no
      > vice!
      > > And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is
      > no
      > > virtue!
      > >
      > >
      > >

      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links

      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

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    • Tim Condon
      Stand by, Gary. This is being sent to the director of the Liberty Forum, Chris Lawless. He ll see that it gets fixed, whatever is causing the problem. ---Tim
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 18 4:35 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Stand by, Gary. This is being sent to the director of the Liberty Forum,
        Chris Lawless. He'll see that it gets fixed, whatever is causing the
        problem. ---Tim



        On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:43 AM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:

        > I have tried to register for the full package and the special $100
        > luncheon, but the website bill pay keeps saying invalid transaction, I have
        > tried 3 cc's that I know are good. wtf?
        >
        > I am trying, but am being stymied. How else can I register and pay?
        > Gary T
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > *From:* Tim Condon <tim@...>
        > *To:* Gary Trieste <garyonthenet@...>
        > *Sent:* Monday, February 15, 2010 7:23 AM
        > *Subject:* [Bulk] Fwd: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians
        >
        > Oops. Check out the FSP Liberty Forum here.<http://www.freestateproject.org/libertyforum>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
        > From: Tim Condon <tim@...>
        > Date: Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 7:21 AM
        > Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians
        > To: GaryT <garyonthenet@...>
        >
        >
        > The Liberty Forum is March 18th through the 21st, Gary. You ought to come.
        > If you want to split a room, I've already got one reserved for that Friday
        > and Saturday nights, and haven't put it out there for anyone on the list for
        > a room to share. Everyone who's anyone in the FSP will be there; you can
        > meet them all. I'll be in-state from the 17th through the 22nd;; if you
        > want, come early and I can take you around the state and intro you to lots
        > of people, including in the Free Town of Grafton as well as Manchester and
        > Concord.
        >
        > Timothy Condon, Esq.
        > 307 S. Fielding Ave., #2
        > Tampa, Florida 33606-4126
        > 813-251-2626 Fax 813-200-3395
        > Email tim@...
        >
        > NOTE: The contents of this e-mail and attachments are intended solely for
        > the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged
        > information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if
        > this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert
        > the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments. If
        > you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use,
        > dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message is
        > prohibited.
        >
        >
        >
        > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:23 AM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Found your post in the junkmail fold of yahoo, luckily I check these
        >> things too.
        >> **
        >> I wasn't contacted by any of your mentioned contacts, and when I didn't
        >> get a reply from you back then I fell back on my quiescent plan and
        >> intentions. Currently hoping to accumulate capital and verve to make the
        >> move early next year.
        >>
        >> I would very much like to start a coffeehouse, and have it combined with
        >> an apt or three adjoining. As you sed Concord might be it.
        >> I would make some trial runs with real estate brokers for the areas before
        >> then to see what is available and get a feel for the locales.
        >>
        >> I guess I should come to the Liberty Forum as well, when is it, March
        >> something?
        >>
        >> RSVP and get me back up to speed!
        >>
        >> Gary T
        >>
        >>
        >> ----- Original Message -----
        >> *From:* Tim Condon <tim@...>
        >> *To:* GaryT <garyonthenet@...>
        >> *Sent:* Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:38 AM
        >> *Subject:* Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians
        >>
        >> Gary, I just ran across your email below. How are you doing in making
        >> plans to join us in the Free State? Did you ever get together with others
        >> "on the ground" in NH and talk to them? ---Tim Condon
        >>
        >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:40 AM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:
        >>
        >>> Aww shux, I wasn't tawkin about you!
        >>> Nah, the fact that you are a freedom activist already puts you four
        >>> notches above anyone I was speaking of, you might even have a few more
        >>> notches than that, but I don't know you well enough.
        >>>
        >>> You sure did read my mind about the nubile young things, aww but thats so
        >>> crass :^))
        >>> College towns have so much to offer, I really love them.
        >>>
        >>> I do believe there is an open mindedness in them, students are open
        >>> minded by circumstance and are willing to entertain things that most would
        >>> otherwise dismiss.
        >>> Yes, Obama was voted in by them, and they were instrumental in promoting
        >>> his campaign. But I have two things to say about that.
        >>> 1. The Obama campaign was a class act, headlined by a very accomplished
        >>> orator. What he promised and the vistas he painted were very appealing,
        >>> there was a promise of cleaner, fairer government, he promised to mop up and
        >>> pursue all the crap of the previous adminstration. And to lay off on
        >>> peoples' lifestyles. Yes, you and I knew he had strong socialist leanings
        >>> even back then, (see my article on that at
        >>> http://www.nolanchart.com/article4421.html), but I was have gladly
        >>> withstood the brunt of his socialism if only he would have kept to his other
        >>> promises. Unfortunately, he didn't even live up to his socialist ideals.
        >>> Only statist ones.
        >>>
        >>> So, although I didn't vote for him, Barr while holding my nose, I easily
        >>> would have not knowing anything better, and I can't fault college kids for
        >>> having done so either.
        >>>
        >>> 2. The fact that college students have open minds cuts both ways (or many
        >>> more ways). That they currently exist in an environment that is soaked in
        >>> socialist mores, is not an instrinsic commentary on the students, but rather
        >>> the student leaders that make it so.
        >>> I am certain that proffered the libertarian alternative, which is MUCH
        >>> more interesting and clear and invigorating, students would make it their
        >>> own.
        >>>
        >>> Libertarians often evolve from leftist or rightist backgrounds. I was
        >>> once a leftist, and probably a tyranical socialist without even knowing it
        >>> ;^( , but that was in my teens, and in short order I evolved into a
        >>> libertarian without even knowing it. I even had a local access TV show that
        >>> was essentially libertarian, but it was before I even knew of the
        >>> libertarian movement.
        >>>
        >>> No but really, my direction is a nice coffeehouse of foment as a running
        >>> excuse for existing. Active participation in the FSP and liberty
        >>> prosyletizing in general, and of course if there is room in the legislature
        >>> to run for that too.
        >>>
        >>> And by all means, bring in those people you mentioned into the
        >>> conversation, share what we have said already. I need all the advice I can
        >>> get, preferably in furtherance of the the type of place I would be looking
        >>> for while I make base in support of the FSP.
        >>>
        >>> Thanx for the connects
        >>>
        >>> Gary T
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> ----- Original Message -----
        >>> *From:* Tim Condon <tim@...>
        >>> *To:* GaryT <garyonthenet@...>
        >>> *Sent:* Monday, December 14, 2009 9:31 AM
        >>> *Subject:* Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians
        >>>
        >>> See below, Gary.
        >>>
        >>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 8:44 AM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:
        >>>
        >>>> *Tim:*
        >>>> **
        >>>> *Well I am glad you conveyed that to me. I certainly want to be in the
        >>>> thick of it. What I purviewed in Manchester I didn't really like too much,
        >>>> it seemed a little run down, but that's assessment from a distance.*
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>> That's reasonably accurate. Like any city, there are run down and nicer
        >>> places. The thing about Manchester is that that's where the people are, and
        >>> therefore the amenities, and therefore civilization...to some people at
        >>> least. More importantly, it's where a lot of political power resides. There
        >>> are towns right outside Manchester like Bedford (where Keith Murphy and his
        >>> wife live, as well as Jane Aitken, who is a retired teacher and an energizer
        >>> bunny in the movement). It just depends.
        >>>
        >>>> ** Concord is sounding better. What I would like is an idyllic
        >>>> environs, not too rural and with an intellectually active community; the
        >>>> best I can describe something like that would be a college town.
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>> I know that. A big university nearby has always been something of a
        >>> necessity for me. All those cultural happenings, all that youth and energy,
        >>> all those nubile young things...and besides, someday I'm going to want to go
        >>> back and study Shakespeare and English, like I should have 40 years ago. In
        >>> that case, you don't want to forget Dover, which is adjacent to the largest
        >>> Univ. of NH campus, and Hannover, which is where Dartmouth is. But your main
        >>> aim is going to be politics and protecting freedom, right? That means after
        >>> a couple of years you'll want to run for the state house, and that means
        >>> you'd want to be in a place where the college kids and their commie
        >>> professors don't *totally* overwhelm common sense....
        >>>
        >>>> *All the college towns I have seen have that really appealing
        >>>> combination of well kept streets and pleasant storefronts, and a community
        >>>> chock full of intellectual foment and open-mindedness for new ideas and
        >>>> change. *
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>> Welllllll...I dunno about the open-mindedness for new ideas and change.
        >>> You mean like that dumb fuck Obama? I mean, all the open-minded kids voted
        >>> for him. Wow. What a deal they've created for themselves. And their kids, if
        >>> they ever have any. And their grandkids. And, oh yeah, their great-grandkids
        >>> will be paying off Obama's debts....
        >>>
        >>>> *It is what most people go through in their college years, before the
        >>>> world slams then down, and they become drones with no passion, and little
        >>>> imagination.*
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>> You're talking about me, aren't you.... ;--)
        >>>
        >>>> * I have never lost that curiosity, open viewpoint and passion. But I
        >>>> have been witness to many who have lost it. They don't even realize it. It's
        >>>> very sad.*
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>> Yep. You are talking about me. That *would* be me.
        >>>
        >>>> ** In any case, that is what I would be looking for, for a residence,
        >>>> as well as room for a streetlevel coffeehouse.
        >>>> *Do you think Concord would be it? Or is there a nearby town that is
        >>>> closer to what I envision? *
        >>>> *Gary T*
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>> Yeah, in a word, Concord would probably be more like what you're looking
        >>> for. It's a Democratic, statist bastion (but I repeat myself), but it's
        >>> culturally nice. There are two or three colleges in and around it (there are
        >>> colleges scattered all over New Hampshire, for that matter; I don't know
        >>> what it is about freezing weather and colleges, but New England seems to
        >>> grow 'em like mushrooms). But I think what would be best for you is to get
        >>> some New Hampshire natives, as well as some Freestaters who have moved, into
        >>> this conversation. I'd suggest bringing in Rep. Bill O'Brien, former Rep.
        >>> Paul Mirski, Selectman Chris Lawless, Rep. Carol McGuire and her husband
        >>> Dan, RLCNH Chair Jim Forsythe, and the owner of The Draft, Andy Sanborn.
        >>>
        >>> Wanna do it? They'll be delighted to yak and help. ---Tim
        >>>
        >>>>
        >>>> *From:* Tim Condon <tim@...>
        >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:24 AM
        >>>> *To:* GaryT <garyonthenet@...>
        >>>> *Subject:* Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians
        >>>>
        >>>> Nah! I wouldn't pick Keene. It's way down there out of the way in the
        >>>> lower left side of the state, away from everything that's happening
        >>>> politically. It does have a big bunch of left-anarchist libertarians (they
        >>>> like to harass the local cops with stuff like mass pot smoke-ins and
        >>>> planting gardens in road medians; one spent a couple of months in jail
        >>>> voluntarily for refusing to "speak his name" to his jailers because they
        >>>> already had his driver's license). If I had it to do all over again, I'd
        >>>> live in in Concord, as that's the belly of the beast and center of state
        >>>> government; nice town too. Manchester of course is where "big-city" (125,000
        >>>> people) civilization is. The towns in southern NH along the Mass. border are
        >>>> very nice also, and among the most reliably Republican-voting in the state
        >>>> (and the NH GOP is about to be taken over lock, stock & barrel by a combined
        >>>> alliance of conservatives, libertarian-conservatives, and libertarians,
        >>>> which means you'd be a shoo-in for state house after you've lived there for
        >>>> a couple of years). Anyway, before you make any decisions, you really need
        >>>> to talk to a representative bunch of activist Freestaters who have moved in,
        >>>> including Andy Sanborn <http://www.andy4senate.com/contact.html>(running for state senate out of Loudon, owns The Draft, a big watering hole
        >>>> in Concord), Jim Forsythe <http://www.jimforsythe.com/>(chairman of the
        >>>> RLCNH; he's running for state senate too, out of Strafford), Dan and
        >>>> Carol McGuire <http://www.mcguire4house.com/> (Carol is already in the
        >>>> state house; Dan will be running again this coming year and will win, out of
        >>>> Epsom), Bob Hull (the leader of the Free Town contingent<http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5f1070cda5dddfb8ea937b788e08c67d&topic=19605.15>where I lay claim to, Grafton), Keith
        >>>> Murphy<http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Keith+Murphy+has+dreams+of+making+it+big+here+in+NH&articleId=931731d4-0536-4587-b3bf-4599268091bd>(on the Manchester board of selectmen, also running for state house this
        >>>> next year, out of Bedford; owns another big watering hole in Manchester,
        >>>> Murphy's Taproom). Chris Lawless <http://freestateblogs.net/node/4014>(out of Contoocook, where he's on the board of selectmen), and Carolyn
        >>>> McKinney <http://www.meetup.com/ronpaul-309/members/2963696/>(webmaster and mother of three with her libertarian husband, out of
        >>>> Amherst...just to mention a few. There are literally hundreds of others
        >>>> scattered all over the Free State (700+ have publicly "declared" themselves;
        >>>> who knows how many others there are). The PorcFest is the best place to meet
        >>>> all these people and more; I'll be there too (I founded the thing; put
        >>>> together the first one<http://www.freestateproject.org/news/releases/porcfest.php>in the summer of 2004). See you there...but you oughtta go ahead and move
        >>>> *before *that! ---Tim
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:
        >>>>
        >>>>> *Ah yes, it is a shame, this censorship thing.*
        >>>>> **
        >>>>> *As I have said, the moderator et al will have a purer list to the
        >>>>> point of sterility.*
        >>>>> **
        >>>>> *Well I will definitely make it for the next PorcFest, perhaps
        >>>>> earlier. I was communicating with a freestater real estate agent on this
        >>>>> list, perhaps I will scope out the available places for sale in
        >>>>> NH. Originally I was looking in Concord or Manchester, but he suggested
        >>>>> I look for properties in Keene. He said that Keene is a college town, with
        >>>>> nice street visuals etc.*
        >>>>> **
        >>>>> *I have an idea to have a place of residence that can also serve as an
        >>>>> intellectual coffeehouse. *
        >>>>> *We'll see. I am rather serious about moving within a year or
        >>>>> so though.*
        >>>>> **
        >>>>> *Gary T*
        >>>>> **
        >>>>> **
        >>>>> *From:* Tim Condon <tim@...>
        >>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 12, 2009 11:02 AM
        >>>>> *To:* Gary Trieste <garyonthenet@...>
        >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians
        >>>>>
        >>>>> HEH! Touche, Gary. Yeah, you DID get the "Gee treatment." I guess I'd
        >>>>> better not post this on the FSP list, as Seth got all wee-wee'd up over the
        >>>>> discussion. I'm much the same as you, but can't say that I'm that much a
        >>>>> student of Christianity.
        >>>>>
        >>>>> In the meantime, when are you getting your ass to the Free State? (I
        >>>>> can't talk much; I spend most of my time in Florida unfortunately, even
        >>>>> though I'm a full-fledged Resident of NH.)
        >>>>>
        >>>>> Timothy Condon, Esq.
        >>>>> 307 S. Fielding Ave., Suite #2
        >>>>> Tampa, Florida 33606
        >>>>> 813-251-2626 Fax 813-200-3395
        >>>>> Email: tim@...
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:29 AM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:
        >>>>>
        >>>>>> Oh? I got the "Gee" treatment. Hmmm.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> I did not deem to typify Christianity here, rather its instrumentality
        >>>>>> in forming the new govt of the United States.
        >>>>>> Christianity itself is a whole 'nother analysis. I am a student of
        >>>>>> Christianity, so I love jabbering about it with anyone who wants to.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> And, it is not a logical error to state that IF Christianity was
        >>>>>> crucial to the forming the of the U.S., AND IF there were no Judaism, there
        >>>>>> would be no Christianity, THEN Judaism was as tautologically crucial to the
        >>>>>> forming of the U.S.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> You speak of logical errors, and you commit the most classical one,
        >>>>>> correllation does not prove causation, i.e. the enlightenment philosophers.
        >>>>>> Your logic:
        >>>>>> "Because the Enlightenment philosophers came from Europe, and because
        >>>>>> Christianity was the incumbent ruling religion, then Enlightenment
        >>>>>> philosophy must come from Christianity."
        >>>>>> (. . . but of course, what else could it be? :^/ jeesh.)
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Of course that ignores mutually exclusive examples that show
        >>>>>> otherwise, namely the ossified state of philosophy, under Christian rule
        >>>>>> which affirmatively criminalized heresy (defined as anything challenging the
        >>>>>> Church's construction of the world and universe).
        >>>>>> for 2000 years Aristotle was the beginning and end all of anything
        >>>>>> science or cosmic. There was no philosophical growth or improvement, almost
        >>>>>> by edict. It was only when science became so obvious and existentially
        >>>>>> powerful that philosphers were compelled to question, then challenge
        >>>>>> Christian cosmology and governmental philosophy, that we had the age of
        >>>>>> englightenment.
        >>>>>> It wasn't because of Christianity, it was in spite of it.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> And of course the founding fathers, given the circumstance and
        >>>>>> environs, would be forced to pay lip service to Christianity; the proof in
        >>>>>> what they really believed is in how much constitutional power they gave
        >>>>>> Christianity in the forming of the U.S. - and you know the answer to that
        >>>>>> one.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
        >>>>>> From: Tim Condon
        >>>>>> To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
        >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 11:18 PM
        >>>>>> Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Gee Gary. Multiple logical errors in that one posting. I don't really
        >>>>>> think
        >>>>>> it logically follows that "we must thank Judaism for the U.S...."
        >>>>>> etc. I
        >>>>>> also don't think that was what Rothbard had in mind, nor do I think
        >>>>>> he'd
        >>>>>> agree with that kind of solipsism. And where did the Enlightenment
        >>>>>> philosophers come from? The same places as the Enlightenment
        >>>>>> philosophers
        >>>>>> that sprang up in central Africa and in the Islamic world in the 17th
        >>>>>> and
        >>>>>> 18th centuries, right? Ahem. If you think that Christianity is just a
        >>>>>> group
        >>>>>> with a holy book with "an amalgam of parables and moral stores that
        >>>>>> say just
        >>>>>> about everything at once," I'm afraid you're a *little* bit
        >>>>>> misinformed...not to mention placing yourself at odds with virtually
        >>>>>> every
        >>>>>> one of the Founding Fathers. But big deal, right? What did they do
        >>>>>> anyway?
        >>>>>> ---Tim Condon
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 3:09 PM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...>
        >>>>>> wrote:
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> > And of course we must thank Judaism for the United States, for
        >>>>>> without that
        >>>>>> > there would have been no Christianity.
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> > I tend to think that Christianity just happened to be there; the
        >>>>>> original
        >>>>>> > principles that America was founded upon came about from
        >>>>>> Enlightenment
        >>>>>> > Philosophers, like Locke, Bacon, etc.
        >>>>>> > Christianity was there for the Crusades and the Spanish
        >>>>>> Inquisition, and
        >>>>>> > pogroms and the invasion of South America. Christianity has as its
        >>>>>> holy
        >>>>>> > book, an amalgam of parables and moral stories that say just about
        >>>>>> > everything at once, there isn't much there that isn't also
        >>>>>> contradicted or
        >>>>>> > marginalized logically somewhere else within the same book.
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> > The point is, Christianity as a moral or political force can be
        >>>>>> anything
        >>>>>> > and has been, from monarchiesa, to dictatorships, to benign
        >>>>>> friendly
        >>>>>> > nations, to whatever. It is a slippery definition, because it has
        >>>>>> so many.
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> > Gary T
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
        >>>>>> > From: Tim Condon
        >>>>>> > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
        >>>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 2:31 AM
        >>>>>> > Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> > At the first annual PorcFest, NH state Rep. Henry McElroy gave a
        >>>>>> speech in
        >>>>>> > which he said exactly that (he even had a Bible as a teaching aid).
        >>>>>> I'm
        >>>>>> > not
        >>>>>> > much of a Christian (it's hard to get there), but I don't see
        >>>>>> anything
        >>>>>> > wrong
        >>>>>> > with recognizing the historical reality that all our freedoms, and
        >>>>>> Western
        >>>>>> > Civilization itself, would never have come about about but for
        >>>>>> > Christianity.
        >>>>>> > Don't attack me. I'm just quoting anarchist libertarian hero Dr.
        >>>>>> Murray
        >>>>>> > Rothbard.
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 1:02 AM, wolzybk <phil@...> wrote:
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> > > The big "if" is the "if it will move the goal forward". Someone
        >>>>>> might be
        >>>>>> > > 80%, or 90%, or 99.44% libertarian in his ideas, but if he's
        >>>>>> actively
        >>>>>> > > pursuing the *other* ideas, then it may not be enough.
        >>>>>> Conversely,
        >>>>>> > someone
        >>>>>> > > might be 5% libertarian, but if he is most active on that one
        >>>>>> > > freedom-related idea he does have, then he might well advance the
        >>>>>> goal.
        >>>>>> > > It's not necessarily about "purity", but about what it is that
        >>>>>> person is
        >>>>>> > > really trying to accomplish.
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > > A good example of this for me is the Constitution Party. They
        >>>>>> call
        >>>>>> > > themselves that, and they sometimes talk a good game of
        >>>>>> respecting the
        >>>>>> > > Constitution. If you issued them a libertarian questionnaire,
        >>>>>> they'd
        >>>>>> > score
        >>>>>> > > quite highly on it as a percentage. But if you get down to what
        >>>>>> they
        >>>>>> > really
        >>>>>> > > believe and work for, they believe as a party that the
        >>>>>> Constitution (and
        >>>>>> > > everything else) is subordinate to the Bible, and that America is
        >>>>>> a
        >>>>>> > > Christian country and should be governed that way. Which is a
        >>>>>> profoundly
        >>>>>> > > NON-libertarian idea, yet is the rock-bottom basis for their
        >>>>>> belief
        >>>>>> > system.
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > > So while I am perfectly happy to work with that party and the
        >>>>>> members of
        >>>>>> > it
        >>>>>> > > on common interests, I am very leery of helping them to have
        >>>>>> enough
        >>>>>> > power
        >>>>>> > > and influence to pursue their full agenda.
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > > These are the sorts of considerations that must be addressed to
        >>>>>> see if
        >>>>>> > > someone is an asset or a barrier to "moving the goal forward", in
        >>>>>> a
        >>>>>> > > practical real-world sense. Not just "what do they say?", or even
        >>>>>> "what
        >>>>>> > do
        >>>>>> > > they believe?", but "what are they trying to actually do?"
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > > PhilB
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, "GaryT" <garyonthenet@
        >>>>>> ...>
        >>>>>> > wrote:
        >>>>>> > > >
        >>>>>> > > > Well then, I guess you will be able to work with 100% of the
        >>>>>> people
        >>>>>> > and
        >>>>>> > > politicians, since almost everyone in America is at least 80%
        >>>>>> > libertarian.
        >>>>>> > > >
        >>>>>> > > > I would work with anyone who would help move the libertarian
        >>>>>> cause
        >>>>>> > > forward, the question is, are the 80%'ers willing to work with
        >>>>>> > libertarians
        >>>>>> > > - mostly I don't think so.
        >>>>>> > > >
        >>>>>> > > > Gary T
        >>>>>> > > >
        >>>>>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
        >>>>>> > > > From: Chris Lawless
        >>>>>> > > > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
        >>>>>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 7:28 AM
        >>>>>> > > > Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: Moderators: please do your job - too
        >>>>>> many non
        >>>>>> > > FSP posts
        >>>>>> > > >
        >>>>>> > > > ... I would rather an active 80% ally then a purist who is not
        >>>>>> active
        >>>>>> > > if it will move the goal forward.
        >>>>>> > > >
        >>>>>> > > > ****************************************
        >>>>>> > > >
        >>>>>> > > > I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is
        >>>>>> no
        >>>>>> > vice!
        >>>>>> > > And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of
        >>>>>> justice is
        >>>>>> > no
        >>>>>> > > virtue!
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > > ------------------------------------
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> > >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> > ------------------------------------
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>> >
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> ------------------------------------
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>
        >
        >


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      • Jon Isaac
        ... it. They are full on one-sided arguments. I should think that all good arguments would be :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 3 , Feb 21 7:47 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          > I have read some of CS Lewis philosophical works, and works similar to
          it. They are full on one-sided arguments.

          I should think that all good arguments would be :)


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