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Re: [FSP] Re: Moderators: please do your job - too many non FSP posts

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  • Tim Condon
    Exactly the point, Phil. This list has become moribund over the past years. As Jason Sorens himself pointed out, the action has shifted to the FSP forums,
    Message 1 of 56 , Dec 5, 2009
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      Exactly the point, Phil. This list has become moribund over the past years.
      As Jason Sorens himself pointed out, the action has shifted to the FSP
      forums, while this list has languished. So when people want to discuss (and
      battle) over political issues that WILL (despite words below to the
      contrary) have an impact on the Free State, especially because of its
      first-in-the-nation primary, why try to shut off the discussion? Is the Free
      State Project not a liberty-oriented movement? I must say, this list has
      gone for months, if not years, with no discussion. Then some clashing
      opinions arise that are of interest (presumably) to all individuals who are
      liberty-oriented, and someone jumps in to try to shut down the debate? .
      Sheesh. Give us more rules! More enforcement! ---Tim Condon




      On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:40 AM, wolzybk <phil@...> wrote:

      > Okay. Point taken. I'm generally inclined to moderate less rather than
      > more, and have been pretty (perhaps over-) tolerant since there has been
      > little activity on this list in general.
      >
      > PhilB
      >
      > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Seth Cohn <sethcohn@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Moderator(s),
      > >
      > > This list has had way way too many off topic posts. Sorry, but Sarah
      > > Palin and Obama's War aren't FSP topics, nor is any other
      > > ideological/philosophical arguments, nor 'who is more/less
      > > libertarian', etc.
      > >
      > > Those who wish to discuss such things have plenty of other places,
      > > both national mailing lists, and NH local lists, including a forum on
      > > the FSP website itself.
      > >
      > > The FSP list is for discussion of Free State Project related
      > > news/info. If someone wants to discuss how to get more folks to sign
      > > up, great. If someone wants to discuss how to get people to come to
      > > PorcFest or LibertyForum, great... if someone wants to discuss the
      > > new level(s) of activism in NH and what that means for the success of
      > > the FSP goal, great.
      > >
      > > Otherwise, it's off topic, and if the Moderators aren't willing to
      > > hold that line, perhaps someone else needs to step up.
      > >
      > > Tired of the unrelated (and contentious) posts, which only harm the
      > > greater unity we need for FSP success,
      > >
      > > Seth
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • GaryT
      I have read some of CS Lewis philosophical works, and works similar to it. They are full on one-sided arguments, and just-so justifications for their
      Message 56 of 56 , Dec 11, 2009
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        I have read some of CS Lewis philosophical works, and works similar to it.
        They are full on one-sided arguments, and "just-so" justifications for their religious opinions.

        I find it quite frustrating to be spoon fed dribble masquerading as profound truth, from adults who cling to their childhood envisioned cosmologies, never having the courage to nip off from themselves what is most obviously redigested pagan creation myths.

        It is like an adult who refuses to affirm that human beings are physically just as much animal/mammal as other animals, 'because we are special'. Yet all the evidence smacks them in the face, they just affirmatively refuse to acknowledge it, because it deflates their worldview and their specialness in it.

        And speaking of 'just-so' stories, Judeo-Christianity an inspiration for most scientists, philosophers and libertarians?
        (Poets are another animal, so I don't comment on them here.)

        To the contrary, most contemporary scientists, philosophers and libertarians are agnostics or atheists. And those who are not, rigorously compartmentalize their two belief systems (in order to remain sane of course).

        Gary T


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Jon Isaac
        To: freestateproject
        Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 7:30 AM
        Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians



        Judeo-christianity is a mess, it is an excuse for incredible travesties. And
        yet it is the inspiration for most scientists, philosophers, poets, and
        libertarians throughout history. Shifting from our myopic little present and
        taking a much longer view of existence, the last century may turn out to be
        the most violent, atheist, oppressive century in history, and not more than
        a blip in a very religious experience. It's the fashion these days to take
        Dawkin's art as "Bible-truth," but truly open-minded people will step
        outside that little cocoon and wonder if it was just historic delusion that
        inspired the greatest minds throughout history to be fervently religious, or
        if it could have been a long-acknowledged wellspring for abolition, art and
        scientific investigation.

        Gary, if you are ever inclined to read about religion-- a real, robust
        religion -- as Dawkins and Hitchens don't dare discuss, pick up Mere
        Christianity by C.S. Lewis or Orthodoxy by G. K. Chesterton.

        Jon Isaac

        MCG School of Medicine, 2012
        404-550-5903 jisaac@...

        "...all that has been is but a slight intimation of what is to be." Neuhaus

        On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 3:09 PM, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > And of course we must thank Judaism for the United States, for without that
        > there would have been no Christianity.
        >
        > I tend to think that Christianity just happened to be there; the original
        > principles that America was founded upon came about from Enlightenment
        > Philosophers, like Locke, Bacon, etc.
        > Christianity was there for the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, and
        > pogroms and the invasion of South America. Christianity has as its holy
        > book, an amalgam of parables and moral stories that say just about
        > everything at once, there isn't much there that isn't also contradicted or
        > marginalized logically somewhere else within the same book.
        >
        > The point is, Christianity as a moral or political force can be anything
        > and has been, from monarchiesa, to dictatorships, to benign friendly
        > nations, to whatever. It is a slippery definition, because it has so many.
        >
        > Gary T
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Tim Condon
        > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com <freestateproject%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 2:31 AM
        > Subject: Re: [FSP] Working with non-pure libertarians
        >
        > At the first annual PorcFest, NH state Rep. Henry McElroy gave a speech in
        > which he said exactly that (he even had a Bible as a teaching aid). I'm not
        > much of a Christian (it's hard to get there), but I don't see anything
        > wrong
        > with recognizing the historical reality that all our freedoms, and Western
        > Civilization itself, would never have come about about but for
        > Christianity.
        > Don't attack me. I'm just quoting anarchist libertarian hero Dr. Murray
        > Rothbard.
        >
        > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 1:02 AM, wolzybk <phil@...<phil%40boncer.com>>
        > wrote:
        >
        > > The big "if" is the "if it will move the goal forward". Someone might be
        > > 80%, or 90%, or 99.44% libertarian in his ideas, but if he's actively
        > > pursuing the *other* ideas, then it may not be enough. Conversely,
        > someone
        > > might be 5% libertarian, but if he is most active on that one
        > > freedom-related idea he does have, then he might well advance the goal.
        > > It's not necessarily about "purity", but about what it is that person is
        > > really trying to accomplish.
        > >
        > > A good example of this for me is the Constitution Party. They call
        > > themselves that, and they sometimes talk a good game of respecting the
        > > Constitution. If you issued them a libertarian questionnaire, they'd
        > score
        > > quite highly on it as a percentage. But if you get down to what they
        > really
        > > believe and work for, they believe as a party that the Constitution (and
        > > everything else) is subordinate to the Bible, and that America is a
        > > Christian country and should be governed that way. Which is a profoundly
        > > NON-libertarian idea, yet is the rock-bottom basis for their belief
        > system.
        > >
        > > So while I am perfectly happy to work with that party and the members of
        > it
        > > on common interests, I am very leery of helping them to have enough power
        > > and influence to pursue their full agenda.
        > >
        > > These are the sorts of considerations that must be addressed to see if
        > > someone is an asset or a barrier to "moving the goal forward", in a
        > > practical real-world sense. Not just "what do they say?", or even "what
        > do
        > > they believe?", but "what are they trying to actually do?"
        > >
        > > PhilB
        > >
        > > --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com<freestateproject%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "GaryT" <garyonthenet@...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Well then, I guess you will be able to work with 100% of the people and
        > > politicians, since almost everyone in America is at least 80%
        > libertarian.
        > > >
        > > > I would work with anyone who would help move the libertarian cause
        > > forward, the question is, are the 80%'ers willing to work with
        > libertarians
        > > - mostly I don't think so.
        > > >
        > > > Gary T
        > > >
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: Chris Lawless
        > > > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com<freestateproject%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 7:28 AM
        > > > Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: Moderators: please do your job - too many non
        > > FSP posts
        > > >
        > > > ... I would rather an active 80% ally then a purist who is not active
        > > if it will move the goal forward.
        > > >
        > > > ****************************************
        > > >
        > > > I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!
        > > And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is
        > no
        > > virtue!
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
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        >
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        >
        >
        >

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