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Re: [FSP] Bob Giuda announces for U.S. House

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  • Thomas S
    Tim, the word conservative has deeper connotations in the pubic marketplace of ideas than your romantic painting below. While *you* see it that way, others
    Message 1 of 68 , Oct 28, 2009
      Tim,

      the word'conservative' has deeper connotations in the pubic marketplace of ideas than your romantic painting below. While *you* see it that way, others see it as a term of social "conestoga-ism." It is one thing to praise "Western Civilization" and leave out annoyting details; it is quite another to subtly harbor xenophobic, homophobic, English-only, pro-police power, pro-drug war "social" positions under the glowing terms you offered.

      Youre absolutely correct, the words 'liberal' and 'conservative' morph with time, and are inexact and imprecise terminologies. We are really Jeffersonian liberals, though few use the word 'liberal' in that sense (unless you're reading The Economist)

      The problem is that *you* like the word the conservative, and I do not...and there are many who would agree with you, and others, with me. But since you admit it is a subjective, imprecise, and morphing term, why not just use the word that *does* define us all: libertarian?

      One can only surnmise that your insistence on marrying the term 'conservatism' to 'libertarianism' - as buttressed by your positions on social issues - has more to do with wanting to "turn the libertarian ship to the right" than in redefining conservatism to fit libertarian ideals.

      Thom


      --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Tim Condon <tim@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm fully aware of Hayek's short essay "Why I Am Not a
      > Conservative."<http://www.fahayek.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46>
      > Ayn
      > Rand also didn't like conservatives, for the obvious reason that
      > conservatives were neither capitalist, nor free market oriented, nor in
      > favor of individual freedom.
      >
      > But today is not then, and today's conservative is not yesterday's. I
      > believe it's time to take the word back. Word's change. Times change. What
      > we all "really" are is "liberals." But the word has been stolen and trashed
      > by socialists and other collectivists.
      >
      > I argue that today's conservative is actually what Frank Meyer and the
      > fusionists used to call a "libertarian-conservative." Barry Goldwater is a
      > libertarian icon, but he never called himself a libertarian. He called
      > himself a conservative, and led the conservative forces in an attempt to
      > overthrow the socialist state that had been erected starting 32 years before
      > by FDR and his collectivist "brain trust." That effort failed, largely due
      > to the bad luck of Kennedy having been assassinated by a group of
      > communists, probably in the employ of Fidel Castro. The monstrous welfare
      > state we face today is a direct result of Kennedy's assassination, which
      > allowed the formless and corrupt Lyndon Johnson to become President. The
      > erection of the modern parasitical welfare state was his doing---or rather
      > the ones around him---starting in 1965.
      >
      > I say that anyone who believes in individual freedom, free market
      > capitalism, the Constitution, Western Civilization, the Declaration of
      > Independence, and the Bill of Rights is a "conservative." Just like Barry
      > Goldwater. In addition, it appears that we now have somewhat more of a
      > threat in the face of the collapse and takeover of Western Europe by surging
      > Islam. Some might think that life under Sharia law might be not all that
      > much different than life under the law in western countries. I don't think
      > so. So how about helping to "conserve" what we have, and retake the ground
      > lost. By being "conservatives." --Tim C.
      >
      >
      > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Thom <benchpress59@...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Tim Condon wrote,
      > >
      > > "...libertarian-conservative, which is where we should all be
      > > ideologically. Or, as I like to say, "rational libertarian..."
      > >
      > > No, Tim. It's is NOT where "we should all be."
      > >
      > > I agree with you 100% on the need to avoid "purity," and heck, I'll even go
      > > for 75% (as opposed to 90%). I like to say "Pragmatic Libertarian," which
      > > is your version of 'rational ibertarian,' I guess.
      > >
      > > But that insistence you have of including the word 'conservative' is just
      > > plain old wrong. We do NOT have to be libertarian-conservatives. For many
      > > of us, "conservative" is just as odious as 'liberal,' (as both use the power
      > > of the state to enforce its pet issues, and for some in the FSP,
      > > "liberal-libertarian is just fine as well.
      > >
      > > Remember which list you're posting to :-)
      > >
      > > Thom
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Tim Condon
      I ll be there! ---Tim Condon ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 68 of 68 , Nov 13, 2009
        I'll be there! ---Tim Condon




        On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Chris Lawless <dreepa@...> wrote:

        > come in March!
        >
        > Everyone on this list should come as well.
        >
        > The 4th annual Liberty Forum will be March 18 -21st.
        >
        > www.freestateproject.org/libertyforum
        >
        > The KeyNote speaker has been announced.
        > Sign up for early bird prices.
        >
        > ****************************************
        >
        > I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And
        > let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no
        > virtue!
        >
        > --- On Fri, 11/13/09, GaryT <garyonthenet@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: GaryT <garyonthenet@...>
        > Subject: Re: [FSP] Bob Giuda announces for U.S. House
        > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 12:11 PM
        >
        >
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        > I am seriously considering it soon.
        >
        > I have started looking at properties, in Manchester, Concord and Keene.
        >
        >
        >
        > A new life and a new direction !
        >
        >
        >
        > Gary T
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        > From: Tim Condon
        >
        > To: freestateproject@ yahoogroups. com
        >
        > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 1:17 PM
        >
        > Subject: Re: [FSP] Bob Giuda announces for U.S. House
        >
        >
        >
        > Agreed, Phil. I have said all I want to say, except "Continue to support
        > the
        >
        > Free State Project, everyone, and move to New Hampshire as soon as you
        > can!
        >
        > As goes New Hampshire, ultimately so goes America." ---Tim Condon
        >
        >
        >
        > On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 12:57 PM, wolzybk <phil@boncer. com> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > > I would appreciate it if this topic could be allowed to die out soon.
        >
        > > Everyone on the list is now aware of the candidate in question and can
        >
        > > decide whether to support him or not. This has now devolved into a
        > squabble
        >
        > > about who's libertarian enough for whom, which is unproductive and
        > divisive,
        >
        > > and not what this list is for.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I'm not going to moderate and squash the discussion right away, but
        > would
        >
        > > like to politely suggest that this horse is just about dead.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I might also suggest that the "Freedom in New Hampshire" yahoo group,
        >
        > > already existing, is a more suitable venue for this type of discussion
        > in
        >
        > > the first place.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > PhilB
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        > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
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        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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        > ------------------------------------
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        > Yahoo! Groups Links
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