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Make the move to NH easy was: The Free State Project is NOT a "secessionist movement"

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  • GTriest
    Well, based upon the original affirmation I signed, I planned on moving to NH after 20,000 had done so already. If you want to look at it as an out I guess
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 23, 2009
      Well, based upon the original affirmation I signed, I planned on moving to NH after 20,000 had done so already.
      If you want to look at it as an "out" I guess you can. Others might look at it as time expected for preparation based upon a contract's terms.
      Admittedly, I do want to go to NH asap, but I have so many balls juggling here, a house, kids in school, a wife that looks at me strange when I tell her my intention, etc.
      Those things - combined with the trepidation of the unknown, questions of who (if anyone) will be there to receive me/us, income sources, and what the FSP may have in place to make the transition easier - has prevented me from moving as soon as I would like.

      Generally, may I suggest a more aggressive campaign of invitation for libertry minded peoples, who may be on the verge of moving.
      Something along the lines of what religious organizations do to encourage participation of members of their flock into some practically inconvenient, but a high principled, activity.
      Say, a sub organization of the FSP that is chartered to
      - consolidate all the advertising, make a campaign with a "come to disneyworld" feel to it. Make the move a magical thing, something historical, something big and important in the grand scheme
      - setting up a "welcome home" committee that would make it VERY easy and inviting to come to NH and morally taken care of for the first month or so
      - organized social clubs that invite FSP members their fold and make them feel a welcome part of social life in their new homes
      - capitalize on the passion that new FSP movants have for political change, provide for easy channelling for that passion's outlet, simple things at first and more complex as the porcs get used to the infrastructure of the organization
      (these are just some ideas, definitiely not conclusive)

      I am vaguely aware of the fact that you do have some of these things in place, but that is not the foremost idea in my mind when I think of moving to NH for FSP reasons.
      My first impression is that, like a pioneer, I will be on my own to persevere. That yes, there will be like minded people there, but independently racing forward, with little time for me. That upon moving to NH, I will be basically roughing it, where I will have to set up my own campsite, tent, start my own fire, shoot my own food, tan my own hides, etc, without much assistance from the FSP community.

      That that is not a thing to even expect to complain about, particularly from a libertarian perspective, but it is also not a thing that makes it prima facie enticing to make the move sooner rather than later.
      The idea that there IS an enthusiastic, inviting, helpful, and concerned FSP community, with easing resources ready to assist me in the move and when I get there, who has programs in place and comforting social structures for me to particpate in, and above all a real sense of community and comradery.

      Gary Treistman


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Tim Condon
      To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:31 PM
      Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: The Free State Project is NOT a "secessionist movement"


      Good points, Steve. I would say the original 20,000 number has become
      irrelevant to the Free State movement, since people instantly started moving
      when the choice of New Hampshire was announced. The fact is that our kind of
      people are continuously migrating into the Free State on an ongoing, steady
      basis. All the 20,000 number did was give some people an "out" (i.e. "If
      everybody else doesn't do it, I don't wanna do it!"). It's not necessary for
      anyone to have an "out" anymore. If you want to live in a free polity, come
      and participate in making it happen. If not, don't; there are plenty of
      people who are. My personal opinion is that as the political and economic
      situations in America become ever more grim in the coming years, lots and
      lots of people will reconsider their original decision not to move, and the
      migration will accelerate. Just my thoughts.
      Timothy Condon, Esq.
      12 Liberty Lane, Grafton, NH 03240
      603-523-9590
      307 S. Fielding Ave., Suite #2
      Tampa, Florida 33606
      813-251-2626 Fax 813-254-2979
      Email: tim@...

      NOTE: The contents of this e-mail and attachments are intended solely for
      the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged
      information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if
      this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert
      the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments. If
      you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use,
      dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message is
      prohibited.

      On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Steve <simplulo@...> wrote:

      > Hmm, 3 months after Tim's post...
      >
      > >I would say secession is a Libertarian tool, not goal.
      >
      > Yup. Sometimes the existence of a tool (e.g. gun, divorce) is enough
      > to prevent its becoming necessary.
      >
      > >I don't see that FSP is anything but what it says it is.
      >
      > And in case anyone forgets what that is:
      > http://www.freestateproject.org/intro
      > "The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty
      > activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest
      > practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum
      > role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."
      >
      > The FSP does not concern itself with what those "practical efforts"
      > are, except during rare moments of idle conversation.
      >
      > Hmmm...even though I helped write that mission statement, I now
      > disagree with it because of the centrality of the 20K figure, which is
      > increasingly anachronistic. The FSP is an
      > organization/corporation/community/project whose mission is to gather
      > in New Hampshire people who can agree to the statement "I will exert
      > the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which
      > the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and
      > property." Those people have various conditions for moving: some need
      > 20K, some need 1K, and just need Taproom Tuesday. Of course, the
      > original mission was 20K, and that still exists for the first project,
      > but it is irrelevant for F1K and possibly other future sub-projects.
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Chris Lawless
      Hey Gary,   I think that many of us 100% understand about job,house, kids and wife thing.  If you just graduate college it is easy to pick up and move...but
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 23, 2009
        Hey Gary,
         
        I think that many of us 100% understand about job,house, kids and wife thing.  If you just graduate college it is easy to pick up and move...but if you are a little older it can take some juggling.
        (BTW.. feel free to ping me regarding your wife.. my wife thought I was crazy for wanting to move here and now 3 years later she LOVES it and is not 'into' politics)
         
        I will say that I was expecting to be a pioneer and was ok with it but I have found.... a community. One that is growing.  I moved here 3.5 years ago and there were only a handful of movers and a handful of locals.  Both groups grow every week.  We get 40-50 people 'hanging out' at Taproom Tuesdays.  We can get over 100 people at certain big parties.
        There are barn raisings etc.  I seem to meet a new mover or new local at every event I go to.  There are people HELPING each other out in all sorts of areas.  It is really cool to see.
        Barter, trade buying and selling.  GIVING.
         
        Some of what you stated has been done (or is being done).
        Can I suggest that you join the FSP Yahoo Doers group and post that Idea (maybe one at a time) so that we can see if someone is already doing that or how we can make and expand those programs.
         
         
        Chris


        ****************************************
        I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!

        --- On Fri, 1/23/09, GTriest <garyonthenet@...> wrote:

        From: GTriest <garyonthenet@...>
        Subject: [FSP] Make the move to NH easy was: The Free State Project is NOT a "secessionist movement"
        To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 7:17 AM






        Well, based upon the original affirmation I signed, I planned on moving to NH after 20,000 had done so already.
        If you want to look at it as an "out" I guess you can. Others might look at it as time expected for preparation based upon a contract's terms.
        Admittedly, I do want to go to NH asap, but I have so many balls juggling here, a house, kids in school, a wife that looks at me strange when I tell her my intention, etc.
        Those things - combined with the trepidation of the unknown, questions of who (if anyone) will be there to receive me/us, income sources, and what the FSP may have in place to make the transition easier - has prevented me from moving as soon as I would like.

        Generally, may I suggest a more aggressive campaign of invitation for libertry minded peoples, who may be on the verge of moving.
        Something along the lines of what religious organizations do to encourage participation of members of their flock into some practically inconvenient, but a high principled, activity.
        Say, a sub organization of the FSP that is chartered to
        - consolidate all the advertising, make a campaign with a "come to disneyworld" feel to it. Make the move a magical thing, something historical, something big and important in the grand scheme
        - setting up a "welcome home" committee that would make it VERY easy and inviting to come to NH and morally taken care of for the first month or so
        - organized social clubs that invite FSP members their fold and make them feel a welcome part of social life in their new homes
        - capitalize on the passion that new FSP movants have for political change, provide for easy channelling for that passion's outlet, simple things at first and more complex as the porcs get used to the infrastructure of the organization
        (these are just some ideas, definitiely not conclusive)

        I am vaguely aware of the fact that you do have some of these things in place, but that is not the foremost idea in my mind when I think of moving to NH for FSP reasons.
        My first impression is that, like a pioneer, I will be on my own to persevere. That yes, there will be like minded people there, but independently racing forward, with little time for me. That upon moving to NH, I will be basically roughing it, where I will have to set up my own campsite, tent, start my own fire, shoot my own food, tan my own hides, etc, without much assistance from the FSP community.

        That that is not a thing to even expect to complain about, particularly from a libertarian perspective, but it is also not a thing that makes it prima facie enticing to make the move sooner rather than later.
        The idea that there IS an enthusiastic, inviting, helpful, and concerned FSP community, with easing resources ready to assist me in the move and when I get there, who has programs in place and comforting social structures for me to particpate in, and above all a real sense of community and comradery.

        Gary Treistman

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Tim Condon
        To: freestateproject@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:31 PM
        Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: The Free State Project is NOT a "secessionist movement"

        Good points, Steve. I would say the original 20,000 number has become
        irrelevant to the Free State movement, since people instantly started moving
        when the choice of New Hampshire was announced. The fact is that our kind of
        people are continuously migrating into the Free State on an ongoing, steady
        basis. All the 20,000 number did was give some people an "out" (i.e. "If
        everybody else doesn't do it, I don't wanna do it!"). It's not necessary for
        anyone to have an "out" anymore. If you want to live in a free polity, come
        and participate in making it happen. If not, don't; there are plenty of
        people who are. My personal opinion is that as the political and economic
        situations in America become ever more grim in the coming years, lots and
        lots of people will reconsider their original decision not to move, and the
        migration will accelerate. Just my thoughts.
        Timothy Condon, Esq.
        12 Liberty Lane, Grafton, NH 03240
        603-523-9590
        307 S. Fielding Ave., Suite #2
        Tampa, Florida 33606
        813-251-2626 Fax 813-254-2979
        Email: tim@timcondon. net

        NOTE: The contents of this e-mail and attachments are intended solely for
        the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged
        information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if
        this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert
        the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments. If
        you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use,
        dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message is
        prohibited.

        On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Steve <simplulo@yahoo. com> wrote:

        > Hmm, 3 months after Tim's post...
        >
        > >I would say secession is a Libertarian tool, not goal.
        >
        > Yup. Sometimes the existence of a tool (e.g. gun, divorce) is enough
        > to prevent its becoming necessary.
        >
        > >I don't see that FSP is anything but what it says it is.
        >
        > And in case anyone forgets what that is:
        > http://www.freestat eproject. org/intro
        > "The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty
        > activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest
        > practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum
        > role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."
        >
        > The FSP does not concern itself with what those "practical efforts"
        > are, except during rare moments of idle conversation.
        >
        > Hmmm...even though I helped write that mission statement, I now
        > disagree with it because of the centrality of the 20K figure, which is
        > increasingly anachronistic. The FSP is an
        > organization/ corporation/ community/ project whose mission is to gather
        > in New Hampshire people who can agree to the statement "I will exert
        > the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which
        > the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and
        > property." Those people have various conditions for moving: some need
        > 20K, some need 1K, and just need Taproom Tuesday. Of course, the
        > original mission was 20K, and that still exists for the first project,
        > but it is irrelevant for F1K and possibly other future sub-projects.
        >
        >
        > ------------ --------- --------- ------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tim Condon
        Gary, I echo what Chris says. I m a resident of New Hampshire while my wife of 24 years is resident of Florida. I bounce back and forth between home in the
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 23, 2009
          Gary, I echo what Chris says. I'm a resident of New Hampshire while my wife
          of 24 years is resident of Florida. I bounce back and forth between home in
          the Free State and Florida every month out of the year. Gary, you most
          definitely won't have to "rough it" unless you want to. Many, many
          Freestaters live in the largest city in NH, Manchester (about 125,000
          people); many more live in the second and third largest cities, Nashua and
          Concord respectively. Wherever you go, you find a ton of not only
          Freestaters who have moved in, but locals who help, support, and guide us as
          new residents. My personal recommendation is to come to Grafton, the "Free
          Town." There are more than two dozen "movers" there, along with a bunch of
          natives who are our friends and are delighted we're there.
          The single best thing you and your wife can do is plan on coming to the
          Sixth (or is it the Seventh?) Annual Free State Project Porcupine Freedom
          Festival (aka the "PorcFest"), which is going to be held in late June up in
          north New Hampshire. Hundreds of Freestaters will be there who have "made
          the move". There will be hundreds more freedom lovers who are either natives
          or who moved here before the FSP chose New Hampshire. Many will be there who
          are members of the state legislature; you'll be able to meet and talk with
          them all you want. Many others will tell you about how they're planning on
          running in the future.

          Come and meet us all. Come and see what's happening in the Free State of New
          Hampshire

          Timothy Condon, Esq.
          12 Liberty Lane, Grafton, NH 03240
          603-523-9590
          VOLLRATH-CONDON, P.A.
          307 S. Fielding Ave., Suite #2
          Tampa, Florida 33606
          813-251-2626 Fax 813-254-2979
          Email: tim@...

          NOTE: The contents of this e-mail and attachments are intended solely for
          the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged
          information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if
          this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert
          the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments. If
          you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use,
          dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message is
          prohibited.

          On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Chris Lawless <dreepa@...> wrote:

          > Hey Gary,
          >
          > I think that many of us 100% understand about job,house, kids and wife
          > thing. If you just graduate college it is easy to pick up and move...but if
          > you are a little older it can take some juggling.
          > (BTW.. feel free to ping me regarding your wife.. my wife thought I was
          > crazy for wanting to move here and now 3 years later she LOVES it and is not
          > 'into' politics)
          >
          > I will say that I was expecting to be a pioneer and was ok with it but I
          > have found.... a community. One that is growing. I moved here 3.5 years ago
          > and there were only a handful of movers and a handful of locals. Both
          > groups grow every week. We get 40-50 people 'hanging out' at Taproom
          > Tuesdays. We can get over 100 people at certain big parties.
          > There are barn raisings etc. I seem to meet a new mover or new local at
          > every event I go to. There are people HELPING each other out in all sorts
          > of areas. It is really cool to see.
          > Barter, trade buying and selling. GIVING.
          >
          > Some of what you stated has been done (or is being done).
          > Can I suggest that you join the FSP Yahoo Doers group and post that Idea
          > (maybe one at a time) so that we can see if someone is already doing that or
          > how we can make and expand those programs.
          >
          >
          > Chris
          >
          >
          > ****************************************
          > I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And
          > let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no
          > virtue!
          >
          > --- On Fri, 1/23/09, GTriest <garyonthenet@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: GTriest <garyonthenet@...>
          > Subject: [FSP] Make the move to NH easy was: The Free State Project is NOT
          > a "secessionist movement"
          > To: freestateproject@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 7:17 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Well, based upon the original affirmation I signed, I planned on moving to
          > NH after 20,000 had done so already.
          > If you want to look at it as an "out" I guess you can. Others might look at
          > it as time expected for preparation based upon a contract's terms.
          > Admittedly, I do want to go to NH asap, but I have so many balls juggling
          > here, a house, kids in school, a wife that looks at me strange when I tell
          > her my intention, etc.
          > Those things - combined with the trepidation of the unknown, questions of
          > who (if anyone) will be there to receive me/us, income sources, and what the
          > FSP may have in place to make the transition easier - has prevented me from
          > moving as soon as I would like.
          >
          > Generally, may I suggest a more aggressive campaign of invitation for
          > libertry minded peoples, who may be on the verge of moving.
          > Something along the lines of what religious organizations do to encourage
          > participation of members of their flock into some practically inconvenient,
          > but a high principled, activity.
          > Say, a sub organization of the FSP that is chartered to
          > - consolidate all the advertising, make a campaign with a "come to
          > disneyworld" feel to it. Make the move a magical thing, something
          > historical, something big and important in the grand scheme
          > - setting up a "welcome home" committee that would make it VERY easy and
          > inviting to come to NH and morally taken care of for the first month or so
          > - organized social clubs that invite FSP members their fold and make them
          > feel a welcome part of social life in their new homes
          > - capitalize on the passion that new FSP movants have for political change,
          > provide for easy channelling for that passion's outlet, simple things at
          > first and more complex as the porcs get used to the infrastructure of the
          > organization
          > (these are just some ideas, definitiely not conclusive)
          >
          > I am vaguely aware of the fact that you do have some of these things in
          > place, but that is not the foremost idea in my mind when I think of moving
          > to NH for FSP reasons.
          > My first impression is that, like a pioneer, I will be on my own to
          > persevere. That yes, there will be like minded people there, but
          > independently racing forward, with little time for me. That upon moving to
          > NH, I will be basically roughing it, where I will have to set up my own
          > campsite, tent, start my own fire, shoot my own food, tan my own hides, etc,
          > without much assistance from the FSP community.
          >
          > That that is not a thing to even expect to complain about, particularly
          > from a libertarian perspective, but it is also not a thing that makes it
          > prima facie enticing to make the move sooner rather than later.
          > The idea that there IS an enthusiastic, inviting, helpful, and concerned
          > FSP community, with easing resources ready to assist me in the move and when
          > I get there, who has programs in place and comforting social structures for
          > me to particpate in, and above all a real sense of community and comradery.
          >
          > Gary Treistman
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Tim Condon
          > To: freestateproject@ yahoogroups. com
          > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:31 PM
          > Subject: Re: [FSP] Re: The Free State Project is NOT a "secessionist
          > movement"
          >
          > Good points, Steve. I would say the original 20,000 number has become
          > irrelevant to the Free State movement, since people instantly started
          > moving
          > when the choice of New Hampshire was announced. The fact is that our kind
          > of
          > people are continuously migrating into the Free State on an ongoing, steady
          > basis. All the 20,000 number did was give some people an "out" (i.e. "If
          > everybody else doesn't do it, I don't wanna do it!"). It's not necessary
          > for
          > anyone to have an "out" anymore. If you want to live in a free polity, come
          > and participate in making it happen. If not, don't; there are plenty of
          > people who are. My personal opinion is that as the political and economic
          > situations in America become ever more grim in the coming years, lots and
          > lots of people will reconsider their original decision not to move, and the
          > migration will accelerate. Just my thoughts.
          > Timothy Condon, Esq.
          > 12 Liberty Lane, Grafton, NH 03240
          > 603-523-9590
          > 307 S. Fielding Ave., Suite #2
          > Tampa, Florida 33606
          > 813-251-2626 Fax 813-254-2979
          > Email: tim@timcondon. net
          >
          > NOTE: The contents of this e-mail and attachments are intended solely for
          > the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged
          > information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if
          > this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert
          > the sender by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments. If
          > you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use,
          > dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message is
          > prohibited.
          >
          > On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Steve <simplulo@yahoo. com> wrote:
          >
          > > Hmm, 3 months after Tim's post...
          > >
          > > >I would say secession is a Libertarian tool, not goal.
          > >
          > > Yup. Sometimes the existence of a tool (e.g. gun, divorce) is enough
          > > to prevent its becoming necessary.
          > >
          > > >I don't see that FSP is anything but what it says it is.
          > >
          > > And in case anyone forgets what that is:
          > > http://www.freestat eproject. org/intro
          > > "The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty
          > > activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest
          > > practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum
          > > role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."
          > >
          > > The FSP does not concern itself with what those "practical efforts"
          > > are, except during rare moments of idle conversation.
          > >
          > > Hmmm...even though I helped write that mission statement, I now
          > > disagree with it because of the centrality of the 20K figure, which is
          > > increasingly anachronistic. The FSP is an
          > > organization/ corporation/ community/ project whose mission is to gather
          > > in New Hampshire people who can agree to the statement "I will exert
          > > the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which
          > > the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and
          > > property." Those people have various conditions for moving: some need
          > > 20K, some need 1K, and just need Taproom Tuesday. Of course, the
          > > original mission was 20K, and that still exists for the first project,
          > > but it is irrelevant for F1K and possibly other future sub-projects.
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Steve
          Correct me if I m wrong, but four FSP early-movers probably did not get elected to the State House in 2008 without a substantial amount of help from the
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 24, 2009
            Correct me if I'm wrong, but four FSP early-movers probably did not
            get elected to the State House in 2008 without a substantial amount of
            help from the porcupine community. My understanding is that similar
            help was provided to other like-minded local politicians.

            --- In freestateproject@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lawless <dreepa@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey Gary,
            >  
            > I think that many of us 100% understand about job,house, kids and
            wife thing.  If you just graduate college it is easy to pick up and
            move...but if you are a little older it can take some juggling.
            > (BTW.. feel free to ping me regarding your wife.. my wife thought I
            was crazy for wanting to move here and now 3 years later she LOVES it
            and is not 'into' politics)
            >  
            > I will say that I was expecting to be a pioneer and was ok with it
            but I have found.... a community.
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